Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Learn Punjabi Shahmukhi (شاہ مکھی) not used at the Gurdwaras in Pakistan?

Discussion in 'Language, Arts & Culture' started by johnyork, Dec 25, 2012.

  1. johnyork

    johnyork
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2012
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    33
    Even the online photos of the Gurdwara Janam Asthan in Pakistan show only Gurmukhi (ਗੁਰਮੁਖੀ) writing on the outside. TheShri Guru Granth Sahib is written in Gurmukhi at all the Gurdwaras (all countries) (this was what I was told from a Khalsa who seemed to know what he was talking about).

    So the question is this, is Shahmukhi used in any printed or written form for any purpose at the Gurdwaras in Pakistan?

    Is Shahmukhi, in essense, a thing of the past with no real future (accept for historical/heritage value)?
     
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Rumal with Shahmukhi writing okay for the Gurdwara? New to Sikhism Dec 21, 2012

  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200

    Guru Granth Sahib will always be written in Gurmukhi... in part because copies can only be purchased from Punjab from a publisher authorized by the SGPC. Now there is talk about authorizing publishers in the US and elsewhere, however, there are strict controls on the publications of pothis.

    I see Shahmukhi writing in many Sikh websites emanating from Pakistan. Shahmukhi is an everyday alphabet/script in use in Pakistan by Sikhs and Muslims, and probably others, who are native speakers of Punjabi in that particular Muslim country. If it is dying out, I would not know because obviously I do not have a way to sample all uses of Shamukhi scientifically. It doesn't look like it though. I have even seen it used to write modern Punjabi poetry, identifying the poet as being from Pakistan.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    lol another p/s

    If you have a love for the Punjabi language, it is worth it to learn Shamukhi and Gurmukhi. These two scripts will give you widest access to modern Punjabi literature.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    Shahmukhi is the SCRIPT that has always been used for URDU since pre-British times. Most of the Daily Work of even Maharaja Ranjit Singh, for example is in FARSEE language written in SHAHMUKHI SCRIPT. URDU/FARSEE has since Islamic times been the language of the Courts and Administration.
    Gurmukhi on the other hand has NEVER been a Court script or script of Administartion..even in the Khalsa Raaj of Maharaja Ranjit Singh..and not even in the PUNJABI SUBA that was specifically created after TWO DECADES of bloody struggle by Sikhs of the Indian Punjab based on other 14 Language Based Subas that were AUTOMATICALLY CREATED in 1947 by Delhi Govt BUT DENIED to PUNJABI/GURMUKHI....even though Punjabi was admitted as the 15th Officially recognized Indian language. At the Height of the PUNJABI SUBA AGITATION..almost 100,000 Sikhs were in Prison, Processions were Lathi charged, it was OUTLAWED to even Say Punjabi Suba Zindabad in Public or in Print. The 1965 War with Pakistan and the Sikh/Punjab conduct in defeating Pakistan finally persuaded the NON Nehru-Gandhi PM of India Lala bahadur Shastree to Agree to Grant the Punjabi Suba State for Gurmukhi/Punjabi...BUT Shastree was killed in mysterious circumstances in Russia and INDIRA GANDHI came on the scene..and she being her Fathers daughter (NEHRU had publicly declared that Punjabi Suba would be created only OVER MY DEAD BODY )..she tried to Evade the Promise given by Shastree Ji...but finally she had to submit to the demand.BUT her Administration managed to CUT OUT the capital City Chandigarh. Himachal pardesh..Haryana.the Punjab Rivers Headwater works Bhakhra Dam, etc etc and many Punjabi Speaking Villages etc etc OUT of Punjab to make the Punjabi Suba as SMALL as POSSIBLE. ..But UNTIL TODAY..the politicla circumstances of Indian Punajb is such that PUNJABI/GURMUKHI gets NO PLACE or LAST PLACE after HINDI/ENGLISH on all and every public signboard, road signs Govt Forms files etc. IF one Passes through Maharashtra..Gujrat, Kerala tamil nadu etc etc..one will NOT FIND A SINGLE WORD IN HINDI anywhere on buses, roads , poilce stations Govt offices etc becasue thsoe Subas give TOP priority to their MOTHER TONGUE as natural..BUT NOT in PUNJAB...here PUNJABI is given STEP MOTHER treatment or worse servant of Hindi/English...isntead of being given due HONOUR as the MOTHER !!

    SHAHMUKHI..Script is used by Pakistani PUNJABIS who LOVE their MOTHER TONGUE PUNJABI..and who also wish to use their own SCRIPT (Urdu script)..to write PUNJABI. Pakistani GURDWARAS are mostly PRE 1947..hence its Natural their STONE walls etc have GURMUKHI script..and are visited by SIKHS so its natural Sikhs give preference to GURMUKHI....You may be Surprised to note that MOSQUES and MUSLIM DERAS in INDIAN PUNJAB have GURMUKHI SIGNBOARDS as PROMINENT Language...because SHAHMUKHI/URDU being no longer lingua franca post 1947..its not taught in schools and therefore very few Punjabi know how to read or write this script..

    This is all the info i can provide..someone more knowledgeable may have more to say..
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    To clarify my earlier point let me quote this information

    This is also a very interesting web site if you are interested in language and the history of language in the region.

    http://www.sanlp.org/pmt/shahmukhi.htm
     
    #5 spnadmin, Dec 26, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012
  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    GURU NANAK JI knew more than 100++ languages...He travelled the Entire known world..form the Lamas of Tibet to Mecca Medina etc etc..He must have COMMUNICATED with the locals...collecting the BANIS He later compiled into his Book...its impossible to imagine that it was all just gestures and sign langauge !!! ha ha...

    SO YES..its an ASSET to be able to read and write SHAHMUKHI as well...my dad was educated in URDU Farsee...and all that vast sea of knowledge he had is INACCESSIBLE to me !! simply becasue i know Alph and Bey of Shahmukhi....nothing more......and Bhai nand Lal Goyas writings are in FARSEE written in Shamukhi Script...and Goya is one fo the best poets of Guru gobind Singh jis time...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel
    Expand Collapse
    We seek him here,we sikh
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    978
    Likes Received:
    1,081
    Language is the Locomotive,Truth is the Track ,the Train of Thought,the Station the Self.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    #7 Scarlet Pimpernel, Dec 26, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012
  9. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Johnyork ji

    Gyani Jarnail Singh ji has made us aware of this link... another fascinating resource for people who love lanaguage, especially the Punjabi language

    From Shamukhi to Gurmukhi http://www.learnpunjabi.org/s2g_final/ps.htm

    It has a great transposition table and charts the progress of language translation engines.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    Looka at this Abstract...

    Shamukhi Vs Gurmukhi...

    Many ambigious words DONT exist in GURMUKHI....while they do in Shamukhi...perhaps this is why Gurmukhi was chosen for SGGS to be very very PRECISE... Very Interesting reading..fascinated me...

    http://www.aclweb.org/anthology/W/W11/W11-3413.pdf
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188

    SP Ji..

    you could be depended upon for such a post..ha ha...
    and the DRIVER of this Locomotive is....??

    Thanks and regards Ji...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel
    Expand Collapse
    We seek him here,we sikh
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    978
    Likes Received:
    1,081
    Gyani ji
    Seasons Greetings
    The carriages are the conventions ,the wheels are wisdom, the velocity created is the virtue , the driver is the station master. The question is how he can be at two points at once ,Superposition I suppose.

    As someone once said if you're on the wrong train no point running into the next carriage,we only need onefour letter word not four languages ,and that too which you speak without moving your tongue.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #11 Scarlet Pimpernel, Dec 26, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012
  13. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    Thanks Gyaniji, the paper comparing Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi and the difficulty transliterating Shahmukhi was very interesting.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. johnyork

    johnyork
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2012
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    33
    Good replies everyone, appreciate all the input.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  15. Rory

    Rory
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2012
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    323
    Gyaniji, you say that Guru Nanak sahib-ji traveled the entire known world.. where exactly do you mean, or was this a broad stroke? 0:)
    Just wondering.
     
  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    Guru nanak ji went on FOUR long journeys jios..known as UDASEES. Bhai MARDANA JI accompanied Guru Ji on all these journeys.

    1. From Punjab to the EAST...Bengal Mynmar etc...some say as far as
    Thailand Cambodia laos...Malaya indonesain islands etc..
    2. From Punjab to the SOUTH..Sri lanka etc
    3. From Punjab to the WEST...mecca medina baghdad afghanistan etc
    coming back via Zanzibar mozambique etc maybe Africa too..monuments
    exist in TURKEY as well.
    4. From Punjab to the EAST...Hardwaar North towards TIBET Ladakh
    Himalayan Mountains etc coming back via Kashmir


    Some links... http://www.singhsahib.com/travel-route-map-of-sikh-guru-nanak-dev-ji.php

    and also....http://satguru.weebly.com/

    ENJOY the discoveries....
     
  17. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    And Guru nanak ji is definitely the MOST TRAVELED Religious Head ever...NONE travelled OUT of their own Locality.... Sri Ram stayed in Ayodhia. Sri.Krishan stayed in Bindrabann...Jesus in Israel..Mohammed in Arabia..Buddha in North India..

    Guru nanak ji and Guru teg bahdur Ji went very far...and the Direct result of this was..the PANJ PIYARAS in 1699 came from as far as CHHATISGARRH ORRISA !!!...
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page