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Sanatan Sikhi Sau Sakhis: Prophesies or Myths?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Archived_member13, Jun 11, 2010.

  1. Archived_member13

    Archived_member13
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    the truth
     
    #1 Archived_member13, Jun 11, 2010
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
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  3. spnadmin

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    Re: Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?

    Gurveen ji

    Guru Fateh! Some moderation issues if you would be so kind to address them.

    Which vaar of Bhai Gurdas do you refer to?
    It will save time if I do not have to look this up.


    Also, what is the source that you have for the authorship of Mangal Prakash, as follows:
    I am also having difficulty finding the connection between the verses of our Gurus and the topic under discussion. Guruji is not a book of prophesy to my knowledge.

    Otherwise this conversation has been very interesting.
     
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  4. spnadmin

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    Re: Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?

    gurveen ji

    Guru Fateh! and thank you for your quick reply to my question. However, it doesn't really clear things up. I only see you saying the same things using different words.All comments in blue are moderation comments. In black, they are my reactions.

    Prophesy is not part of Sikhism and is not consistent with Gurmat as per Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Prophesy was one of those things that Guru Nanak was trying to wean people away from because it is a source of superstition, ritual, fear, blind faith, and hocus pocus. Since Guru Gobind Singh was infused with the same jyote as Guru Nanak Dev ji, it is hard to believe that he would revamp things and indulge in prophecy.

    The Mangal Prakash and various other sources you mention are retrospective documents that reflect on the life of Guru Gobind Singh, as compiled and written down in later time. They do nothing to clear things up. The sau sakhis can be and are doubted to be historically accurate documents, and they are therefore doubted as valid. We have some very informative threads at SPN on this exact topic.

    The discussion of prophesy in relation to 1984 has no bearing on the topic of the thread-- i.e., was the Akaali party giving back-end support to the Indian Government? That question should be answerable with more recent, authenticated material than prophecies coming from a questionable document. Forgive me, but we need to stay on topic and not confuse prophesy in Sikhism with what happened leading up to 1984.

    And I am still wondering which varaan of Bhai Gurdas ji you have posted.

    It is not important to thank me for my "view". They are moderation questions:happykaur:.
     
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  5. spnadmin

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    Sau Sakhis: Fact or Fiction?

    Gurveen ji

    Gurfateh! And thank you. If this is your clarification



    then there is no reason to include any part of the Sau Sakhis in this discussion. I am leaving the earlier references to prophecies and Mahal Prakash in place for now. If it comes up again then the comments will be moved from the thread as they fail to be relevant and are completely misleading. P/S you have still not provided the vaar from Bhai Gurdas that you cite.
     
  6. maskinji

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    Re: Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?


    Gurveenji,

    I totally agree that Santji being a true Gurmukh had divine sense faculty to foresee and understand things. He was a strenuous abhyassi of Naam-Simran. Now, These beliefs are utterly based on faith, and cannot be proved, evrybdy has his own eyes and a visualisation.

    Also, If you have Mangal Prakash, it would definitely give all of us another view of Santji, which would be deeply appreciated.

    SSA.
     
    #5 maskinji, Jun 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2010
  7. spnadmin

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    Re: Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?

    maskin ji

    Forgive me for being a suspicious person. Too many years on the Internet has done this to me.

    I have suspected for some time that you and guvreen ji may be working in cahoots. This bit evidence makes my suspicions stronger. You quoted a post by gurveen ji using blue fonts, in your comments above. Timewise, this occurred AFTER I had changed the fonts of Gurveen's post from blue to black. That is not a violation of TOS at SPN, but certainly a quaint development. Everything has now been edited and is black.

    Along the same lines, any posting from this point onward about prophesy, Sau Sakhi's, Sant Jarnail Singh's prophetic powers, or Maha Prakash will be construed as an attempt to derail the conversation into a different direction.

    For example,

    " Coming in seventy-eight ( 1521 C.E.) they will depart in 97 and then the
    brave man will rise up. Nanak speaks the word of Truth, he proclaims the
    Truth at this for it now the time for Truth". ( Sri Guru Granth Sahib)

    Guru Sahib knew that other religions before Sikhi used the way of prophesies to convert people but in Sikh religion realization is given more
    emphasis that's why their are not to many prophesies is not Included in Sikh scripture.


    BTW. You have not given the Ang for "they will depart in 97. And so you have tried to mislead SPN members because you have omitted that date associated with
    " they will depart in 97 and then the brave man will rise up."

    Ang 723,
    ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ॥
    aavan athatharai jaan sathaanavai hor bhee outhasee maradh kaa chaelaa ||
    Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up.

    Such comments have nothing to do with Saint Jarnail ji, and further mockery of our intelligence will either be deleted or discussions will become a new thread.

    Warning. Infractions to follow if this continues.
     
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    #6 spnadmin, Jun 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2010
  8. spnadmin

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    Re: Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?

    On another note, the Shabad that contains the words,

    ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ॥
    aavan athatharai jaan sathaanavai hor bhee outhasee maradh kaa chaelaa ||
    Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up.

    begins on Ang 722 and ends on Ang 723. It is not prophecy but rather an historical shabad composed when Guru Nanak was imprisoned in Lahore, and was later to confront Babbar with the enormity of his cruelty.
     
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  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Re: Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?

    The Shabad quoted on Page 722/723 written by guru nanak ji Sahib is an EYEWITTNESS ACCOUNT of happenings that Guru Ji saw. It is HISTORY and not prophecy.

    Those who seek "prophecy" to "authenticate" Guru Nanak Ji as a "prophet" are looking at the wrong place as SGGS and Sikh Scritptures DO NOT subscribe to this. Prophecy as a proof of prophethood etc is a judaic/chrsitian/islamic tradition..NOT Gurmatt of Guur nanak ji.

    Gurmatt gives ALL Powers to Akal Purakh..He can Pre-ordain..or CHANGE as and when He wills it...so actually NOTHING is "fixed" per se...example He can "pre-ordain" babar to invade India in 1525...and then He can also CHANGE it to any other date or even take away babars life or send him away to China in 1525..????..IN other words IF the GUur ji were to say in 1700 that Inidra Gandhi WILL Attack Darbar sahib in 1984 (as a prophecy)..then THIS TIES DOWN AKAL PURAKH to those dates and incident and THAT is NOT AS PER GURMATT !! although it may sound great for Guru Jis alleged "prophecies coming true ??....GURMATT is submit to HIS WILL. Period. Since ONLY HE knows His will...only HE can tell...:eek:rangesingh::redturban::happysingh::blueturban::happymunda:
     
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  10. maskinji

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    Sau Sakhis: Fact or Fiction?


    Narayanjot Ji,

    on a lighter note, I guess you being a moderator can easily see if someone is working with secretive collaboration or not ?? Yes, I agree that the thread moved away from its context, but my response was solely based on the views. I guess it should not have been discussed in first place, since these talks are based on one's beliefs and publicly making statement cannot help prove it. Anyways, I respect the views of the SPN Member about this.

    Also, the font color thing, I didnt get it clearly. I guess you mean to say that I changed the color of the font to blue explicitly to post. Well, if It is that, then Thats totally false. I reply in default settings as you must be having in the forum. If you mean else, Please clarify.

    I must say, you are a strict Moderator. Text in Red and that too in bold. You must be mad at me !! Anyways, I am here to share my views in healthy environment and would strive to maintain the Decorum as stated by you.

    SSA.
     
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  11. spnadmin

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    Re: Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?

    maskin ji

    Another reading of my comments regarding font changes will clear this up. Thanks
     
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  12. ballym

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    Re: Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?

    I waited long.I resisted responding but ....
    Suddenly people are talking about logic !

    You want a strict moderator.... try sikhnet forum. They are strict but not biased. strictness is not bias.
    For biased moderator, we have so many site like sikhsangat.

    I guess all members must give their facebook identity and other social site identities to identify themselves.
    Any sikh, even with all 5 K's is not a sikh if he/she does not follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib teachings. GuruNanak Dev ji 's primary stance and teaching was to shun kirya karam/ palm reading/ bhavishya vani/ chmatkar etc.
    People accepting these things must seek the real solid proof before accepting them. Of course , we can not reject anything outright but at the same time, do not use this option to accetpt utter lies.
    BTW, I would like to know real age of people beliving in prophecies... with some kind of proof. I have some doubts.
    Can you clear my doubts or forum member's doubt before putting up a history changing ideas.
    Are you related to some Gurudwara management in India?
    These are simple questions. If you are with truth and only with truth, please respond ... and I would like some kind of authenticated proof.

    Thanks,
     
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  13. Archived_member13

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    Re: Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?

    Gurfateh ji,

    I'll answer to you're baseless claims with proof and authentication. I am not related to
    any committee who use the money of Sangat for their personal gains. I have stated
    my resentment what's happeing in present punjab in my articles and giving proofs for
    that and you're ignoring all those things.

    I don't why you're stuck Mangal Prakash and ignoring other facts. I know Sikh religion
    does not beleive in prophesy but you should know that all aspects of Sikh religion.
    Mangal Prakash is written by Tenth Master in Poanta Sahib and it was one of his writings
    handed down included in Sau Sakhis. Now Sau Sakhis gives us the account on life of our
    Gurus just Muslims has Hadith saying of their prophet now you're trying to tell me we
    should reject sau sakhis which included Mangal Prakash which to some extent describes
    events happened in 1984 it does not mean we should accept it but it just broaden the
    specturm in order to understand 1984 nothing else.

    I am not here to cause confusion. For you're Kind information as you're saying Even A
    Sikh with 5 k's is not a Sikh well thing is that Sikh is who reads Gurbani contomplates
    and understand on it and applies it on the day to day to basis is Sikh doesn't matter if
    he / she has taken Amrit or not but difference while taking Amrit is that A Sikh gives his
    Tan, Man, Dhan to Maharaj and Khanda is stirred in the Bata or vessel drinks immortality.
    Here is the answer-

    To forsake pride, emotational attatchment and the sense of mind and yours's the path
    of Double edged sword (3)

    Their was huge cry when Bhinderwale wore weapons and I have also provided facts for
    that Damdami Taksal is started by Tenth Soverign King where he ordained he Sikhs to
    be shastardharis. Here is the Answer

    " Bena Shastar Kesh, Beat Jaano" ( Dasam Granth)

    My Sikh who keep weapons, I don't know the exact chapter but this verse is included in
    (Dasam Granth)

    Akal Ustat " All steel sword ( symbol of all powerul lord) is our protection".

    Well If you sharing ideas or putting basic fact is lies then I don't know what' the truth
    if you want me I provide you the stories which is included in sau sakhis where to this
    day Nihang Sikhs beleive in it and recognize the sayings of Tenth Master from Mangal
    Prakash orginated it just to provide more knowledge and help to deal this issue much
    better nothing else.

    Regards

    Gurveen Singh ( KHALSA)
     
  14. spnadmin

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    Re: Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?

    gurveen ji

    Guru fateh!

    There is no evidence to support what you are saying here. That is the basis for the concerns expressed by ballym ji, by Gyani ji, and by me. You may recall at the beginning of this thread that I asked you whether the Akaali's you were referring to were the Nihangs or the modern political party. Now I am glad that I asked.

    One story: The Akaali Nihangs are believed to have shared authorship with the Nirmalas in the invention of the Sau Sakhis. A second version: the stories are based on recollectionos of Bhai Ram Kuir who descended from Bhai Buddha/Bhai Gurbakhsh Singh. In other words a told b who told c who told Santok Singh who then included some of the tales in Suraj Partap. These Sakhis were not written all at once. They emerged a few at a time. Perhaps to keep morale alive among the Nihang Akaalis when Sikhi was facing oblitaration through constant war with the Mughals. Later when the raj was on the brink of extinction by the British even more sakhis emerged. The story is always the same. A powerful leader has left the stage, we are on the brink of a catastrophe, and a new leader will rise up in prophesy to rescue the panth.

    1. There is not even annecdotal evidence that Guru Gobind Singh wrote and/or handed down the Sau Sakhis, including Mangal Prakash.

    2. We should reject the Sau Sakhis as valid sources of Sikh History and Sikh belief.

    3. The Sau Sakhis do not describe events that occurred in 1984. The only way you could draw this conclusion would be by arguing that the same personalities and the same conditions magically recycled themselves over a period of more than 200 years.

    4. By accepting these ideas no one is broadening any spectrum in order to understand 1984. Sikhs are misleading other Sikhs and people who want to understand Sikhism when they say that.

    5. There are plenty of logical reasons to believe that Nirmalas, who make the questionable claim that their sect was begun by Guru Gobind Singh ji, invented these stories to strengthen their hand and their influence during the period following the death of the 10th Nanak. This was a time that was politically unstable and a vacuum of power and influence needed to be filled, or so they may have thought.

    We are coming very close to splitting this thread BTW. It may be only a matter of hours.
     
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  15. Tejwant Singh

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    Re: Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?

    I get a bit bewildered when some try to prove their points about Sikhi through hear-says and traditions. Please do not take me wrong. Both have played very important roles in many religions of the world, especially the Abrahamical ones.

    Let's take an example of the New Testament on which the Christianity, the largest religion of the world is founded.


    It is said that the Gospels of John, Luke, Matthew and Mark were written between 65 AD and 125 AD. One wonders if one can remember what one did, ate, wore, wrote or talked about 3 years ago today.


    Same goes for the Quran. Prophet Mohammed did not write it. He was not educated enough to do so and when the Quran was written is still in question.


    Both the above examples are about hear-says.

    Now, coming back to Sikhi, which is a unique pragmatic way of life rather than the dogmatic religions mentioned above that are based mainly on hear-says along with some traditions.


    Our Gurus were visionaries. That is why they simply gave us the name Sikh- a Student, a Learner, a Seeker. In other words, a Sikh is a person whose thirst to learn in order to become open-minded never ceases.


    Our visionary Gurus did not write any history about themselves nor did they hire any historians or the portrait painters who could write what they did and portray them through paintings. They did not give themselves any names but just numbers in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru. These decisions were taken on purpose by them to show us that Sikhi is not about Me-ism but about One-ism.


    They wrote beautiful poetry in which they did not put themselves on any pedestal but called themselves the lowest of the lows and just praised Ik Ong Kaar. They conversed with The Source on our behalf in a beautiful poetic manner.


    They added some poetry from other writers of different religions and walks of life which complimented their Gurmat ideas in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru. The poetry of some poets that did not compliment Gurmat was rejected. The best example is the poetry of Bhagat Kabir. That is the reason not all the Saloks written by Bhagat Kabir are in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

    They compiled the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru in such a way that it can not be tampered with.

    When our Dasam Pita added the Gurbani of his Dad, Guru Teg Bahadur ji, he did not add his Gurbani in the end but inserted it in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib at different places where it complimented the thought process along with the musical raags. One most important thing to notice here is that he finished all the Shabads o his Father’s which he added in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib with the word Nanak, hence followed the norm of the Gurbani.

    Let’s not also forget that our Dasam Pita sacrificed his own father, his four sons for the sake of justice, made us pure hearted-Khalsas, by creating the Khalsa Panth, and lowered himself to our level to lift us up to his by taking khandei de pahul from the Panj Piyras.

    This is where the tradition plays part in Sikhi which runs parallel to the written words in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru.

    But, let’s not also forget one important caveat here which is that our Dasam Pita never added a single word of his own in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru.

    Unfortunately we tend to forget that and start playing the role of our 10th Guru by speculating things what he may or may have not written which is nothing but an insult to the one who gave us so much in his short span of life. The above mentioned books, stories etc. etc are nothing but hear-says which have no room in Sikhi.

    Sri Guru Granth Sahib is our only Guru. No one else, nothing else no matter on which paper it is written.

    Traditions play an important part in Sikhi but not hear-says like in other religions. This is the uniqueness of Sikhi.

    Tejwant Singh

    Related thread:

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/30035-karni-nama-raj-nama-sikh-book.html
     
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    #14 Tejwant Singh, Jun 15, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2010
  16. ballym

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    Re: Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?

    Does one understand that they are disobeying their Gurus by following lies. Are you ready to forget whole of SGGS for an unauthenticated book?
    Are you ready to disagree with your Gurus who asked us to shun chamtkar, funny rituals, class culture?


    If you say YES.... There is no need of further discussions. Please give quick yes or No. There is no point in lengthy posts now.
     
  17. Archived_member13

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    Re: Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?

    With all due respect you can think whatever you want and you have completely mis understood the matter on a different level. No wonder you're keep talking about prophesies over and over again what about other issues which today Punjab faces what about that? Everything is
    interlinked between the politics of Punjab and religion. I mean if you're going keep on rejecting all these issues then there's never going to be
    solution to the problem.

    One has also has to appreciate if someone he saying the truth this age of
    Kalyug is age of darkness where nobody is willing to let someone give a
    second chance without even doing proper research.

    I ready to have one on one debate then you will know who is speakig the
    Truth? Not like you pin point weakness of a person and keep targeting
    again and again it's not me you're misleading the people without having
    completely understood the bluestar operation.

    You're putting words in my mouth again and again as I repeatedly said
    I don't beleive in prophesies real Gurmat is in order to understand Sikh
    scripture and applying in daily lives and moreover I am staunch supporter
    of Dasam Granth not what other says.

    Now you're talkiing Quran and Hadith for you're kind inforamtion Hadith is
    considered actual sayings of prophet acc to Islam go and ask Muslim they
    they consider Hadith and actual sayings of prophet as an order a Muslim
    visualises and off course fully Quran.

    But this is not in our case we have 2 scriptures and sau sakhis gives us
    glimpse of what our Guru Sahib did but it is not to compared close to
    those 2 scriptures. Though they were never didn't write about anything
    about themselves.

    Now coming to Mangal Prakash which you guys are making big fuss about
    it, well answer to that is you should get into the bottom of Sikh history
    Well once Guru Arjan Sahib said Golden Temple ground will be shaky bec
    it will be attacked many times and you might also make an issue about
    it?

    Issue is their is nothing equal to Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj if something
    is their underneath the cover you should respect and leave it their. If
    you people to know the Truth instead of spending time on prophesy
    concentrate other things which lead to 1984?

    I'll give some detailed account of operation bluestar through religiously,
    politically and times which are going through according to the Gurmat of
    Aaad Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj where the world needs it's message

    Regarding

    Gurveen Singh ( Khalsa)
     

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