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Really creepy ideology and really creepy view of some people towards sikhi saroop !

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Seeker2013, Sep 19, 2015.

  1. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    I work in an IT company. I have always felt a considerable size of people have a bias against me because of my sikhi saroop ! and I am not working in some US city . I live in my so-called "own country" - india . In one of its multicultural cities - mumbai , where I was born and grew up and currently working.

    And yet, while there are people everywhere who respect me for the turban on my head, I have also felt like some evil aura around people who almost hated me and suspected me for being different.

    The previous office I worked in , a south indian bullied me like anything "Why do you wear this hat on your head?" , "Oh he can't hear anything he has his ears covered by so many layers" , "can you people cut your vegetables using your kirpan ( a word I told him to use rather than the word he used initally - chaaku (knife ) ) ,
    "eh tum log chaaku kyu pehenta hai" (why do you people wear a knife ) some people would ask me .

    I told them its kirpan and an article of faith for us and for self-defense and for defense of others. I never retaliated to bullying strongly because I was new in the office and my first job and didn't want to create a scandal because I have noticed even if I am the one who's done wrong to , it usually ends up with me on one side and rest of my colleagues on the other side.

    Actually this is my first job I joined on july . I initially worked in their office , but was later deployed to client side where I am currently working.

    Next in this office too , I met my share of idiots and satans. People who're otherwise decent and very good people wonder why do I have to wear a turban. Yesterday, after office hours as I was chatting with my colleagues , topic of religion came up. And this one guy said that if he became the leader of india, he would force anyone to become one appearance (muslims can't keep beards and caps and no turbans and beards for sikhs and no bodi for hindus) and then some other colleagues who're from maharashtra also said some nasty things like "Why do you people segregate yourselves from the rest by wearing turbans ? what is the need ?"

    It almost sounded like RSS venom.

    I was so repulsed . THESE ARE THE PEOPLE we laid our lives for !!??

    I was so repulsed infact I uttered "Where did you take this ideology from ? RSS?" and his face reaction was as if I caught him spot-on ! and then later when I was listening to kirtan , this guy came near me and when I gave him one earphone to listen to kirtan , he was like "Its not in hindi !!!?" sounds familiar ?! "hindu HINDI hindustan" slogan of hindutva elements !


    It has made me feel like an outsider at times, in "my own country" , a country we thought was our own , a country our ancestors laid their lives for . And such hurtful and insensitive comments come from people who're following a religion which was saved by the blood of our 9th guru - Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib maharaj.
    What an 'akirtghan' (ungrateful) community they're . I think sometimes.

    PS: I am not in 100% sikhi saroop. I trim my beard too . but it still hurts me when people say sh*t about my religion
     
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    #1 Seeker2013, Sep 19, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
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  3. ActsOfGod

    ActsOfGod
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    Our ancestors didn't sacrifice their lives for the country, they sacrificed their lives for the principles of their/our Faith: for justice and freedom and to uproot tyranny from this world.

    On a side note, now might be a good time to grow out your beard and ditch the razor forever. If you have so much love for Sikhi (and it appears that you do), then make some additional effort to live life more aligned with the practices.

    Remember, there was a time when getting a job was the biggest and most daunting challenge in your life. Now that you have a job, other challenges have appeared. Did the Sangat not warn you that this would be so?

    [AoG]
     
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  4. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    Very true ji ! other challenges have appeared. now its my sexuality. Actually it always was, but the tension of sexuality was eclipsed temporarily by job tension.
    Gay men are treated like sh*t in our society , demasculinized and thrown in the corner. Hardly anybody is treating us propertly. We're like shudars. I wouldn't want this kind of life, but its not something I chose to be in the first place :(

    and thats why my prayer to him now is change my orientation. Thats equivalent miracle as turning the temple to face bhagat namdev. It seems like a dificult thing to do , but not for god.
    Sometimes , I get all teary with love for him in my pain, but I tell myself "don't worry, he's there, he will help you :) " and I feel calm.

    I am actually thinking of "embracing" the razor a little more , cutting my hair . Yeah I know it sounds horrendous , but then I am reminded he's "patit paavan" too (purifier of sinners) . Even if I become a patit, I know he will keep me if I come back :)
    And I hope to sleep with a bunch of dudes too and enjoy my orientation. If he can save 'ganika' the prostitute, then why not me even if I became a so-called '{censored word, do not repeat.}' .
    Now you must be wondering why i wanna do that , ummm well thats just coz I wanna try out those things in my life atleast once ;)
    But still I know guru ji will accept me when I resign myself to him and one day I hope to , but I also wish to taste all the 'bhogs' this live has to offer :p
    my prayer to him is : keep me and mind at your feet even when my body "temporarily" enjoys the maya of world .
     
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  5. ActsOfGod

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    Are you absolutely sure about that? This would be true for someone who committed wrongs unknowingly or out of ignorance, but the way you seem to be approaching it, seems like you're trying to take advantage of His forgiving nature. Knowingly becoming a patit because you think you will be forgiven when you "come back", is a real problem. He knows all your thoughts, so He knows how you're plotting and scheming to abuse His kind and forgiving nature. I would be very wary of going down that road.

    I understand why you want to become a {censored word, do not repeat.}. You want to experience pleasure, to enjoy the lust. If the rest of the world is enjoying sexual pleasures, why not you as well. So I can understand that you're having those urges.

    Hmm. You're assuming a lot here.

    1) that Guru Sahib will accept you (it's not guaranteed, you know, we are all beggars at His door).
    2) that there will be a future time when you decide to resign yourself (nobody knows what the future holds. According to Gurbani, we don't even know if we're going to draw our next breath. So this is placing a very risky bet that there will be a "future" where you will be able to "resign yourself")
    3) the philosophy of "one day". The successful businessmen all teach this lesson, that the philosophy of "one day" has caused people to fail. People will say "one day I will exercise", "one day I will start eating healthy", "one day I will quit my addictions and live a clean life". In reality, that "one day" never comes.

    Are you just going to sleep around, or will you also take some drugs? Alcohol is also intoxicating. Gambling is fun too. And more. Where will you draw the line? Sensual pleasures alone are enough to trap a person and keep him wandering in delusion for several lifetimes. You're talking about playing with fire. When you play with fire, you get burned. If you act upon your desires, you won't come out unscathed, there will be a heavy price to pay.

    Oh, and what about STD's? Will you be an "ethical {censored word, do not repeat.}", or will you just sleep with anyone who wants to get off with you?

    Your statement seems very incongruent. If you truly pray for Guru Sahib to protect you, then pay attention to what Guru Sahib is saying to you, and do your best to follow Guru's Hukam. You can't expect kirpa if you willingly and knowingly do something you know is wrong.

    You are already in the world. You are already immersed in Maya. We all are. This is the stage for the actors to perform. We are the actors. We have choice. The Creator of the Universe put into place laws of cause and effect. Oft-repeated actions are ingrained upon the soul. As we sow, so do we reap. Be careful that you don't sow seeds of poison, because they will surely germinate and then you will have to endure pain and suffering.

    You may think that your life is full of suffering now. But be aware that it's your actions today that will create your future tomorrow. If you want peace and santokh, then take actions now that will bring you peace of mind in the future.

    It may be tempting to run towards sensual pleasures, but they won't provide you the peace of mind you need. They will only add fuel to the fire, and in the end you will be ten times more miserable. And you'll have more problems than you can even begin to imagine now.

    Remember that Kaam is characterized as an entity that will use and abuse you, taking everything from you - your happiness, your peace, your money, your health, your relationships, your joy, your faith, your youth, your dreams, your future, your life. In the end, after it has squeezed everything it can from you, at the moment of death, it will abandon you, and leave you alone and in utter misery.

    [AoG]
     
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  6. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Seeker 2013 ji there have been numerous scientific and other studies that talk about the body language and non-verbal communication. If your inside and outside are divergent, people know and you don't need to even say a word. This may in part reflect how your so called Sikhi saroop is not getting taken seriously or with respect or reflective of dignity.

    Sikhi teaches us to start from the inside out. From what you are describing in this thread, your Sikhi inside is in its infancy. So Saroop has little value per se. As a matter of fact there are far too many examples of people focusing on Sikh saroop and doing great disservice to Sikhism through their actions so non-Sikhi. I will cite you an example. A mature Sikh shopkeeper wearing Gatra and unshorn hair was caught bringing in drugs. He had cut out the inside of SGGS and filled it out with drugs. Saroop and baana portrayed by such is a disgrace and such people are more disrespecting of the SGGS and body Sikhism than say people with incomplete exterior as a Sikh but carrying Sikhism in their heart.

    So in a way if you read your own posts you should be able to realize by now that questions you are posing are well answered through other posts you yourself are making. So basically meaningless questions/answers posed by yourself to yourself.

    The thread itself has value in terms of facilitating the underlying concepts to elaborate what is a Sikh and what is Sikhism.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  7. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    very well said ji....i was going to reply with something similar last night but could not have put it better...

    i cannot understand the "i will do this, as i know i will be forgiven"...yes we may be forgiven...but the rule still stands, as we sow shall we reap...in the meantime, time runs out..

    Waheguru wants honesty....it is best for Seeker2013 to just be honest with Waheguru and say He is not ready for commitment to this path...and to keep praying for that commitment...in the meantime...go about his business with the sole aim not to hurt anyone along the way, and to look after himself.

    It took a lot of drinking for me to realize it was doing me no good, but i didnt drink because i knew God would forgive me one day, that kind of thinking is scheming, it has an agenda....trickery...i drank because that's what i wanted to do...and Waheguru was least on my mind...i learned the hard way...but a lesson nonetheless.

    thankfully Waheguru heard my deepest prayers.

    honesty...truthfulness, regardless of good or bad
     
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  8. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    actually you made me think twice :( TBH I have had this thought myself. Considering nothing is hidden from hir (I will call god 'hir' , not him or her, as god is not male/female). If I think the way I do, hir will definitely know it instantly. Infact, hir already knows I wud think so in future.


    TBH, my whole sexuality is a big imbroglio -_- .
    I am the kind of man who could never be respected among people, in my country, in my lifetime.
    I am the object of ridicule and shame. The sorrow of being an invisible outcast is there, it stabs me inside everytime I see a 20 - something happy couple and wonder to the god in my mann "Why?"
    When I sometimes feel sorrow and pain of my sexuality and future , I am forced to think what wrong I did to deserve this ? why I had to be in that tiny minority of 3-5% of men who're like this ? men who're not even considered 'real man' (whatever the hell that means ) by society at large.
    Men who for the most part have no family and live desolate lives.

    most people my age get all excited for their future. they plan weddings. what do I have to look forward to ? tell me !? :(

    my parents will leave me one by one . and I will be left alone, with no siblings, no family ! isn't that scary .

    but then a divine voice comes from within the heart "aren't these pompous weddings of "normal" people
    temporary too in the grand scale of things.

    Just few days back as I was terrorized by these thought and felt like I had nowhere to turn to with my pain, I turned to where I always turn to , Sri Guru Granth sahib, my living guru .

    As I sat on the tabeya and lifted rumala sahib, I started crying .
    The kind of cry you have when you're in pain and someone close to you hugs you.

    I had asked in ardas
    "why you listen to some people's prayer and other people don't get relief ?
    who will take care of me ?
    will I ever become straight or not by your grace so that I may lead a grihast jeevan? will you not pardon my previous karmas that led me to be born as gay?"

    ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ
    Sorat'h, Third Mehl:

    ਸੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਸਖਾ ਬੰਧਪੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਜਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਭਾਣੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਵੈ
    He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru's Will.

    ਆਪਣੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਜੋ ਚਲੈ ਭਾਈ ਵਿਛੁੜਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਖਾਵੈ
    One who walks according to his own will, O Siblings of Destiny, suffers separation from the Lord, and shall be punished.

    ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਖੁ ਕਦੇ ਪਾਵੈ ਭਾਈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਪਛੋਤਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
    Without the True Guru, peace is never obtained, O Siblings of Destiny; again and again, he regrets and repents. ||1||

    ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਦਾਸ ਸੁਹੇਲੇ ਭਾਈ
    The Lord's slaves are happy, O Siblings of Destiny.

    ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਦੁਖ ਕਾਟੇ ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਈ ਰਹਾਉ
    The sins and sorrows of countless lifetimes are eradicated; the Lord Himself unites them in His Union. ||Pause||

    ਇਹੁ ਕੁਟੰਬੁ ਸਭੁ ਜੀਅ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਭਾਈ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾ ਸੈਂਸਾਰਾ
    All of these relatives are like chains upon the soul, O Siblings of Destiny; the world is deluded by doubt.
    (because I was praying for a family of my own with wife and kids )

    ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਬੰਧਨ ਟੂਟਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰਾ
    Without the Guru, the chains cannot be broken; the Gurmukhs find the door of salvation.


    ਕਰਮ ਕਰਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮਹਿ ਵਾਰੋ ਵਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
    One who performs rituals without realizing the Word of the Guru's Shabad, shall die and be reborn, again and again. ||2||


    ਹਉ ਮੇਰਾ ਜਗੁ ਪਲਚਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਾਈ ਕੋਇ ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਕੇਰਾ
    The world is entangled in egotism and possessiveness, O Siblings of Destiny, but no one belongs to anyone else.
    (because I often felt I should have someone to look forward to lest I become alone in life)

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਹਲੁ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਬਸੇਰਾ
    The Gurmukhs attain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, singing the Glories of the Lord; they dwell in the home of their own inner being.


    ਐਥੈ ਬੂਝੈ ਸੁ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਕੇਰਾ ॥੩॥
    One who understands here, realizes himself; the Lord God belongs to him. ||3||
    (because I felt I will be alone)

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਦਾ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਗਾ ਕਿਆ ਪਾਈਐ
    The True Guru is forever merciful, O Siblings of Destiny; without good destiny, what can anyone obtain?
    (because I asked god to make me straight)

    ਏਕ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਜੇਹਾ ਭਾਉ ਤੇਹਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਈਐ
    He looks alike upon all with His Glance of Grace, but people receive the fruits of their rewards according to their love for the Lord.
    (why you listen to some people's prayer and other people don't get relief ? )


    ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਈਐ ॥੪॥੬॥
    O Nanak, when the Naam, the Name of the Lord, comes to dwell within the mind, then self-conceit is eradicated from within. ||4||6||

    I realized guru ji had answered my doubts. but still it made me sad that guru had said "ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਗਾ ਕਿਆ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ without good destiny, what can anyone obtain?"

    actually have heard this argument very commonly from sikh preachers.
    true, but seriously even if I agree with this advice of gursikh, what do I do with that advice ?
    take amrit and remain single for life? spend whole life worshiping god ?

    the fear of slippery slope is always there and you have to be on guards against your own self.
    Imagine me having something with a guy, and a constable catched us and roughens me up, because gay is still illegal in india. and next day I swear I will leave all this and surrender to guru. My mind imagines all sort of things.
    but I feel like my orientation is such that surrendering to god is my only option :(


    I often see wandering stray dogs and it makes me feel scared. like what they must have done to deserve this .

    true it is ! but the other part of my mind who is skeptic wants me to look dude, ripped body with latest hairstyle, hooking with likewise cute guys. Its all maya, but what do I do ? my mind is such it wants that too .

    so I be a nun for life ?
    I feel like returning to guru at some point of life is my only option . considering I don't envision a rocking life ahead. what options do I have ? marrying a woman would be miserable, can't be with a man.
    but right now I feel like I can't handle a long beard, long mustaches, etc .
     
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  9. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    Hey,

    no one is saying be a Nun all your life...

    more importantly it is your attitude about why you are going to do certain things....

    if you want to meet guys...do so, but not with the intention "i'm going to sleep around, have fun (what you perceive as fun) ... and god will forgive me later"

    meet people if you want...do so with the intention to understand yourself further...in a clean way...in a way that corresponds to the type of person that you come across as.....loving, compasionate and caring.

    keep your head up...be yourself....learn about yourself...but after it all, you want to come out the other end with your head held high and with some self respect....a stronger person and more focused about where you want to be. you will make mistakes a long the way...as we all do...

    many, many people live great meaningful lives without ever getting married and having kids...and doing what is perceived as the 'Norm'

    read about people lives, be inspired with what they did...the over thinking and worrying is what is holding you back from life...because you feel you need to be just like everyone else....not only are you of different sexual orientation, but you also get looked upon differently because of your Sikhi look. Maybe god is trying to tell you that it is ok to be different...it is ok to be yourself...and find a way through life that us beneficial to you and others around you.

    i've done some stupid things in my life...hit some lows...but i'm so great full that i never lost sight of Guru Ji. I really really believe that if you have full faith in His support, then the Universe wil conspire to change things for you...for the better...
     
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    #8 chazSingh, Sep 25, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2015
  10. namritanevaeh

    namritanevaeh Canada
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    Seeker ji,

    I know some people who identify mostly as gay, but also a bit as bisexual. We live in a day and age where more people are going out and having the kind of relationship THEY want to have. It's partly a question of standing up for what works for you.

    I've known of at least one family that has two fathers and two mothers. Like I say they are mostly on the gay side of things but they work together well as a unit of 4 that co-parent all together. Only one of the women has had babies; the other did not want to. And the children are biologically the offspring of only one of the men. It's how they decided it worked best for them.

    And another family I know has two moms, one dad. I realise this is super not common in the punjabi/Sikh community but that doesn't mean it's impossible to find your unit family that works for you.

    Chin up! :)
     
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  11. ActsOfGod

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    Ask a more empowering question. Asking "Why me?" will lead you into depression and will not produce any meaningful results.

    Ask a better question. For example, "How can I use this to make my life better and other peoples lives better?"

    A question that the highly respected late Wayne Dyer used to always ask himself was "How can I serve?"

    Don't you think you'll be more useful in this world if you ask "How can I serve?" instead of "Why me?"

    You are not the only one. Everyone's parents will leave them. Some people are not fortunate enough to grow up with their parents, others have abusive parents. Some people have no family due to war or crime. A nine-year old boy having to witness his mother gunned down by a drive-by shooting by a gang. Isn't that scary? What about his trauma? What about the Syrian refugees who are fleeing for their lives? What about those youth (20-somethings) who are being tortured, raped and murdered? What is scary in this world?

    You don't have a monopoly on suffering.


    You have a specific situation which you are lamenting about. The best advice I can offer would be to find someone who has gone through a similar struggle and who is living happily today, i.e. not depressed, not engaging in destructive habits, but actually happy and enjoying their life and pursuing their dreams. Ask them for advice on how best to deal with your situation, and then follow that advice.

    There are no easy answers, but a few others on this forum have offered you some alternative options, like moving to another country, etc.

    One thing is for sure: if you keep complaining and lamenting, but take no action, your situation will not improve. In fact, it will almost certainly get worse.

    All the best, and I hope you find the peace of mind that you so desperately desire.

    [AoG]
     
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  12. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    you mean miracles ?

    Also, its funny how there are so little "Bhai GurIqbal singhs " on this forum. I mean every1 here tells me about how to become more open minded to accomodate my orientation, nobody said "if you pray to god, can change you" :p
    i guess most people here don't believe in miracles
     
  13. namritanevaeh

    namritanevaeh Canada
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    If one talks about the fact that any of us survive pregnancy with everything that can go wrong, all the genetic disorders possible etc., then yes I believe in the miracle of life. But generally speaking, no. If you were made gay there is a reason. The miracle, if anything, is that if there is a god out there, he or she wanted you gay and managed to do that. To try and undo what you are would be an insult. ;-)

    Then again I think sexuality is a blessing. And I don't believe it is evil. Except when it is done in situations where it is done by force, coercion, pedophilia,etc.
     
  14. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    what if you don't consider it a blessing ? what if it doesn't feel like a blessing but more of a curse
     
  15. Ishna

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    Like periods? :p
     
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  16. namritanevaeh

    namritanevaeh Canada
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    Maybe you're not a very sexual being then?

    Nobody has to have sex and it's ok to not like it too. But it's also ok to enjoy it and cherish it.
     
  17. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    Writer SPNer Contributor

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    lol no . not at all


    I am sexual actually but I am 25 and still virgin becoz i am not an outgoing person. I prefer to live not a very social life.
     

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