Discussion in 'History of Sikhism' started by rajneesh madhok, Aug 15, 2011.
Looking at the sword, it appears to be a picture of Guru Gobind Singh Ji... Thanks for sharing...
In 1800 Maharaja Ranjit Singh won the victory and marched towards Lahore On 1st April 1800 the Governor General of British Govt had sent Mir Yusuf Ali to Lahore to hold negotiations with Maharja Ranjit Singh ji. An historic meeting was held on 22 Oct 1800. On April 12, 1801 Ranjit Singhji declared himself Maharaja of Punjab on the auspicious day of Baisakhi when Khalsa was made by Guru Gobind Singh ji
As the coin is connected with Maharaja Ranjit Singhji's regime so the intellectuals of Sikh religion may properly predict whether the coin is in the memory of Guru Nanak Dev ji or Guru Gobind Singh ji. As per my observation, the picture is just like the portraits made by Sobha Singh artist of Guru Nanak Dev ji. The swords may be due to the victory of Maharaja Ranjit Singh ji.
Kindly go through the paintings of Hon'ble Sobha Singh and match with the Rarest coin.
Thanks for this wonderful image and comment. You know how I love Sikh Coins. I have moved it to Sikh Coins and out of Hard Talk. Yes I do believe it is typical of portraits of Guru Nanak for that period of time in history.
This Coin DEBUNKS the fanciful theory that ONLY Guur hargobind Sahib Ji and then Guru Gobind Singh ji handled a SWORD. KIRPAN is a GIFT from Guru Nanak ji sahib..our Founder..except that one doesnt hand a sword to a child...one waits for him to grow up...In Guur nanak jis time Sikhi/Gurmatt was a "CHILD"...and grown up by the tiem fo vasakhi 1699..fit and able to carry his own Kirpan !!...a KIRPAN that was forged by Guru nanak Ji and kept in reserve for the growing child of Gurmatt/Sikhi. icecreammundaicecreammunda
Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fatheh!
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am fortunate enough to own such a coin. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji is depicted in the post above. Guru Ji in their Tenth form is sitting in Bir Asan, they have a tegha and are holding a teer. The main reason why this is Sri Guru Gobind Singh is that the iconic image of Sri Guru Nanak sitting with Bhai Mardana and Bhai Bala is on the other side. The coin is dated 1804 but you have to bear in mind that is not Common Era date. I think you ll find that this puts the coin in the Misl period. Also at the top on the Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji side the writing states in old hindi 'Sat Kartar'.
Sri Guru Har Rai kept a standing army and we know how Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur earned their name, so the theory you are ,unsuccessfully on this occasion, trying to debunk isn't correct in the first place. All should be careful making sweeping statements based in selective evidence to support their own theories, lest they miss the whole picture or in this case the otherside of the coin.
In the coin the disciple has not sat in Bir=Asan posture. This is the posture of a warrior with his left knee raised and the right knee touching the ground. In this posture Guruji poured nectar into the palms to drink to their beloved.
In the pic of coin Guruji is sitting in cross-legged position. the lower legs folded towards the body, crossing each other at the ankle or calf, with both ankles on the floor. In this poture the feet used to tuck under the knees or thighs. In Yoga this posture is called as Sukhasana. This posture is used during meditation.
Still I doubt that Guru Gobind Singhji is depicted in the above mentioned picture. Your obeservation that the year 1804 engraved on the coin is doubtful. I am quite sure that the year belongs to actual date as at that time Maharaja Ranjit Singhji was the ruler as per history defined as above.
Thanks for your reply.
With all due respect, do you really think the subcontinent was using the Gregorian calendar BEFORE the British ruled?
Sarangi ji very well stated thank you. Rajneesh Madhok ji needs to hold his peace on this.
Sarangi ji is it possible to take a better picture of front and back and post it here in case the coin you have is in better condition.
Sat Sri Akal.
The above mentioned site is Pakistan Government's official website. The regime of Maharaja Ranjit Singh with dates as per British calender is shown in this website. I hope the point will highlight the matter and you will admit that the particular coin is released by Maharaja Ranjit Singhji.
Rajneesh Madhok ji thanks for the site.
I don't think this is a debate about anything where there will be a winner or loser or someone has to admit that they are right or wrong.
It is just a coin. Nice pictures of both sides will allow people to reminisce about the great Sikh kingdom that once was. It would not prove anything historic in how the depictions relate to actual Gurus if that is what you are driving at. There are limitations in coinage technology over time and not much needs to be read beyond the concept behind the coin.
Sat Sri Akal.
Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fatheh!
As Ambarsaria mentioned this is not about winning (it's always Vaheguru's Fatheh always not mine anyhow) but lets do honest vichar on this since you are claiming this to be minted during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's reign and it depicting Guru Gobind Singh.
Vikram Smavat calendar is 56 years ahead of Georgian Calendar. So the date on the coin is 1804 Smavat and minus 56 put the date on the coin to 1748 CE. Maharaja Ranjit Singh's reign did not start until 1801 CE. This means that the coin was struck during the Sikh Confederacy (1707 CE-1799 CE). It's that simple.
I'm speculating here but when given two sides to place a message, such as a coin, it makes sense at least to me that Sikh misls would chose the First and the Last human Gurus out of sheer reverence. This is what united them and this unity gave them strength which obviously culminated in Sikh Raj.
I'll post some pictures up later.
I do not think that Gyani ji was making a case based on selective evidence. What changes the theory is what you have shared
Now can you educate us as to how you know this date of 1804 is not from the common era "CE." Gaining access to your knowledge on this crucial bit of information, that the coin dates to the Misl period, would be very informative, in fact shedding light on history itself.
Would you say more about why you support the above contention over what rajneesh ji has posted?
rajneesh ji is giving another take on the matter of dating the coin. So once again here at SPN we have different sources coming to different conclusions
For people who love coins this is the kind of subject matter that is the elixir of an afternoon. Everyone wins from a discussion.
This is the kind of debate that we can only learn from. Thanks.
Sure I learnt a few things from this thread.
To declare a winner, let us toss a coin,
Guru Nanak Dev ji
Rajneesh Madhok ji wins mundahug
Guru Gobind Singh ji and Guru Nanak Dev ji
Sarangi ji wins mundahug
Just toss of the coin for elixir effects
Spnadmin ji wins lol
Actually I also fit into this category :noticemunda:
Sat Sri Akal all for great information and posts.
Only the "COIN" part is DEFECTIVE in my assertion (not theory). It may be GGS or tomorrow we may discover that its actually banda Singh or someone else..so the COIN part ends here. Its NOT MATERIAL to the Message of the Nirmal Panth/Gurmatt history.
BUT the SWORD does come form GURU NANAK JI SAHIB simply because HE drew up the entire Master Plan for GURMATT...the NIRMAL PANTH that he began. At that particular time the Gurmatt Nirmal panth was in INFANCY and incapable of weilding the physical sword..thus Guru Sahibs first went about weilding the GYAAN KHARRAGH..Sword of KNOWLEDGE...GYAAN...SHABAD to build upt he Moral strength of a down trodden people subject to slavery for over 800 years.....The SGGS was bound in time of Guru Arjun ji sahib and the time to pick up the PHYSICAL SWORD of STEEL side by side the Gyaan Kharrgh came in time fo Guru hargobind Sahib Ji. Rest is correct becasue TEG Bahadur jis first name was TYAAG MALL ( similar to GYAAN KHARRAGH WIELDERS)..BUT when the PHYSICAL SWORD was needed..the SIKHS were READY....and TYAAG MALL was transformed into TEG BAHADUR on the Battle filed. YET the MIRI-PIRI concept of TYAAG MALL - TEG BAHADUR was kept intact by Guur Ji undergoing a PEACEFUL SHAHEEDEE in Delhis Chandnni Chowk..to show the world that the Nirmal Panth of Guru nanak ji is still in the same MOULD and hasnt changed...on the Battlefield we can Fight just as well as we cna FIGHt the Spiritual Battle of a MRTYR. TYAAG MALL carried the TEG of TEG BAHADUR yet decided NOT to wield it as he did on the Battlefields of Guru hargobind Ji.
GURU GOBIND SINGH JI then CODIFIED that from Vasakhi 1699 a SINGH would be TYAAG MALL + TEG BAHADUR CONCURRENTLY...Saint and Soldier at the same time. NO SINGH shall ever be just ONE...just a soldier or just a saint...each and every SINGH has to be SAINT-SOLDIER or SOLDIER_SAINT.
Can we have a brighter bigger clearer picture of this coin ? The world's prenier sikh coin expert who has a collection of such lives in MALAYSIA...about 30 miles away from me...MOST sikh coins have Persian words only...esp the oens struck during the abanda singh/Misl period. Imho the Picture said to be GGS doesnt look like a bir assan because one doesnt Bir assan with a Takiah (round pillow behind the back ) ?? TWO SWORDS may be indictaive of Miri Piri as well.
HOW COULD SOBHA SINGH KNOW WHAT GURU NANAK DEV JI LOOKED LIKE? AS I WROTE IN ONE OF MY EARLIER POSTS, THESE PAINTINGS LOOK MORE LIKE SELF-PORTRAITS OF THE ARTIST HIMSELF.:::singhsippingcoffee:
Jasbir Kaleka ji just some comments.
If he did not paint it based on sketches or other material directly of the times of Guru Nanak Dev ji, then it is a vision of the painter. The vision may include all kind of aspects of respect (the hand as Guru Nanak please bless me), knowing gurbani who would utter such and a vision of such a person (the facial expression of blissful contentment), travels and knowing what kind of persona would need to do such (strong and healthy face with good skin tones), confronting the local powers and recognizing what kind of face will be needed for such (a wholesome non-fearing face), discourses with Sidhs to know what kind of persona will do so with respect (a respectful of others and saintly face), and so on.
To view such a picture/print/painting if viewed the right way and the artist did justice, should imbue the qualities behind the painting and will correspondingly effect one. Hence great likeability of many of Sobha Singh ji's paintings of Sikh characters.
Only Sobha Singh ji knows the true inspirations and if he felt he could build such on a self portrait, so be it. It perhaps was most accessible to him to build from.
Sat Sri Akal.