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Questions about Sikhism and Caste ?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Neutral Singh, Oct 19, 2004.

  1. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    FAteh Ji

    I got this very intereing email containing some very intelligent set of questions, questioning creditability of Sikh Gurus and much more. It would be wonderful if you could provide a fitting reply to his queries. The email goes like this...

     
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  3. KDS

    KDS
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    Hello Sir,

    Again I would draw your attention to rebuttals made by one Randeep Singh on www.sikh-history.com forum. I seem to have copying and posting links but try and link the discussion if you can. It would be most interesting.
     
  4. Amardeep

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    i can answer some of the questions..

    1-4:
    u cannot blame sikhism for the acts of sikhs. sikhs follow culture as well as religion and they will have to answer this in the Lords Court. the religion preaches that everyone is equal, so thats the way it is. even hymns from people of low class can be read in the GGS

    5: once again. this is acts of the people...u cant withhold this to the religion, the same way u cant withhold the crusaders to the christian faith, or the suicide bombers to the islamic faith...
    dont judge a religion, on the way its followers are acting..judge it by the scriptures..

    6: yes he claimed that he was sent from God..u cant prove this, besides sakhis, the same way u cant proove that Jesus was a probhet, unless u use the bible..

    7. read the beuaty of his hymns, and realise the logic in it..

    8. he did'n cry. he raged for revenge and justice..he did'n cry.
    and who did Jesus save? the romans wanted to kill him, so he died...he did'n sacrifice his own life in order to save the 12 disciples/followers or anything...the way Guru Tegh Bahadur died for the hindues..

    10. God created man with hair.. so therefore he should keep it..

    11. if God sent a goat or cow to this world alive, then why should we kill it? and if we kill it, why would we yell the name of God while we kill what he sent to us alive? if you have to kill, then do it in your own name. dont blasfemise Gods holy name when you are killing...

    12... what is your proof that Jesus was a prophet? and if he was, then why did'n he leave behind any scriptures ? everything from the bible is written AFTER Jesus died, and by people who never met him, and they all contradict eachother...

    14: once again. acts of sikhs. has nothing to do with religion. as far as i am concerned, people are not allowed to have pictures of the Guru's..

    17: can u give any sources? i know nothing about this..
     
  5. Hardkaur

    Hardkaur
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    ALL that i can say is that ALL CASTES are a result of the Hindu religon, In the HINDU religon theres four main castes, Brahmin, kashyatari,Vaishyas, and Shudras. Jatt, Rajput, Saini, etc are all subdivisions of these catses!!!!

    The whole way this catse system started is written in the Hindu sacred book (the Vedas) it was through the symbolic sacrifice of Purusha the primevel Man from whose head came bramhins, his arms kashyataris, his thighs vaishyas, and his feet shudras.

    So why is it that we Sikhs believe in the caste system when it really is all just a part of the hindu religon???:confused:
     
  6. Amarpal

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    Dear Hardkaur Ji,

    As Sikhs we have no caste. there are individuals who call themselves Sikhs but have not shed their affiliation to the religions of their ancestors; they continue the baggage of their past. Such people talk about castes of their family.

    These people have not yet understood what Sikh religion is all about.

    Sikhi does not alow discrimination base on the origin of the person; we are brotherhood of humans. Caste system is based on discrimination based on the birth of the individual, it is unsikh-like. Recognising caste is negating one of the major principle of Sikh Religion. We as Sikh should never do it. Those among us who recognise caste need to be educated; it indicates that we as Panth have not done enough in this area.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Dera All,

    Somethings happen becasue GOD Ordained them to happen that way ??

    I can also ask why JESUS was NOT born in HINDU INDIA...or in CHINA..he would automatically have 2 Billion Followers right from DAY ONE.?? but he was born in a manger in a small Jewish village.

    Secondly it must be noted that in JESUS case it was the PEOPLE who WANTED him Crucified...the GOVT of the day tried all it could to get him released BUt the PEOPLE DEMANDED his BLOOD..and finally the Governor Pilate washed his hands off the episode... The SIKH GURUS and SIKH MARTYRS were the PEOPLES HEROES..and ONLy the MUGHAL GOVT wanted them dead..as the GOVT was afraid of them...the PEOPLE LOVED THEM...so who DIED for WHOM is very clear. Jesus had absolutley NO CHOICE..and had to die because the public demanded it...The GURUS had a CHOICE..CONVERT to ISLAM and LIVE like KINGS..or DIE a MARTYR ..they Chose to DIE for their FAITH rather than Convert.

    Bhagat Ravidass Ji was born in a DALIT FAMILY...is that any "reason" for everybody to become his follwer ?? ARe ALL DALITS His Followers ?? How many DALITS have become SIKHS just becasue Bhagat ravidass Ji's Bani is included in Guru Granth JI ?? Would it have made any difference IF Ravidass Ji was a Jatt or Brahmin ??

    Some of Bhagat kabir Ji's Bani is IN Guru Granth Ji and some of it is NOT. That decision is made by Guru naanaK jI and GURU ARJUN JI. Why must we question their "decision" to Edit/choose what bani to include and not include ?? Of course they chose that bani which agrees with GURMATT and rejected that doesnt.

    Guru ramdass Ji's MARRIAGE to bibi Bhani Ji is one fo the best examples of Guru Ji's philosophy of MERIT. Bibi Bhani was of marriagebale age..and Guru Ji were looking for a groom. They Saw bhai jetha ji selling condiments in the street...and Guru Ji's Mehl pointed out and said I want a Son in Law just like that handsome man..and Guru Amardass Ji replied..A Man just like that is that man himself..

    And bhai jetha Ji was called into the Guru's house and put the proposal before him..and he accepted. GURU ji DID NOT question his caste/family background/riches etc etc. It is WRONG to imply that the GURUS went OUT of their way to LOOK for KHATREES only...Bhai jetha could have been a dalit for all Guru Ji cared !!

    GurU nanak ji was married according to His PARENTS/sister - brother in law's wishes... Bhai lehna Ji and Bhai Amardass Ji were already MARRIED BEFORE they became GURU....

    Most of the questions look like dhuchhars to me ( loaded questions) calculated towards prejudice..not genuinely interested in Sikhism or Gurmatt. Each can be easily and adequately rebutted...and have been elsewhere.

    Heres one from me..IF Jesus wanted his "bani" to be included in GURU GRANTH JI.why didnt he write any ?? As Son of God he could have written bani in any language..but he didnt write a single word even in Hebrew. NO offense..because ONLY those who wrote BANI are mentioned in Guru granth Ji.

    Jarnail Singh gyani
     
  8. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    20. If Sikhism truly believes that there is more than 1 path to God then why do Sikhs get upset at others who leave Sikhism for other religions out of their own free choice? It is simply a matter of choice.

    IF you beleive GOD to be INFALLIBLE...that is one who CANNOT make a MISTAKE....then are YOU CORRECTING his MISTAKE when you CONVERT ?? IF GOD made you a MUSLIM...and you "convert" to Christianity...are you NOT saying in EFFECT..GOD you made A HUGE MISTAKE...I will NOW CORRECT you and become a "christian"

    THAT is WHY in GURBANI the SIKH GURUS mad no effort to CONVERT any body..a HINDU is told to be a GOOD HINDU..a Muslim is told to be a GOOD MUSLIM....Gurbani declares VED KATEB KAHO MATT CHHOTHHEY..chootha h jo na bichareh..Meaning the VEDAS and the KITAB (koran/Bible) are NOT FALSE..false are those who claim to be Hindus/Muslims and Christians who DONT FOLLOW the correct teachings of their Holy texts...

    Could anything be clearer than this......

    Jarnail Singh Gyani
     
  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    13. How can Guru Granth Sahib be regarded as the "word of God" when all of it's contents are just 1 big compilation of holy men with the same ideology ? There are some like Bhagat Kabir who has some of his baani in Guru Granth Sahib and the other half of his baani is not included.

    WHAT would be the "WORD OF GOD" ??

    is it the stories of floods (Noah and his ark) and murders (Cain and abel)..or sleeping with others wives..( too many to count)..or murder of another to covet his wife as was done by one KING ??..or miracles like changing water to wine or waking up a dead lazarus ( he died once more.or he would be alive today !! so i fail to see the purpose in waking him up ??)...etc etc etc...these same types of stories abound in the Bhagwad Gita, Mahabhart Ramayana vedas etc etc...

    Guru Granth Ji on the other hand contains NO STORIES..no PERSONAL DETAILS..NO MIRACLES...NO Dead man Walking, No travelling on water..no five fish feeding millions.....just and only JUST PRAISES of GOD..His attributes, His LOVE for Mankind..and How to PLEASE HIM...GURBANI is NOT "the WORD of GOD".. per se..IT is KHASAM KI BANI..that is PRAISES ABOUT GOD...PRAISE OF GOD..about GOD by GODLY PERSONS....

    SIKHS have done a Great DISSERVICE to HUMANITy by NOT spreading this GURBANI light of the World everywhere...the INTERNET is doing that now..fortunately...the LIGHT of GURBANI is beginning to shine forth in this darkened World...World Class Philosphers,(Arnold Toynbee) writers,(Pearl S Buck, Greenleaf )scientists, of NON SIKH Origin have written so glowingly about GURBANI....this UNIQUE HONOUR is ONLY for GURBANI..no other holy text can claim it.

    Jarnail Singh gyani
     
  10. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    gyani ji i don't understand it.does it mean our ancestors committed a big
    mistake and embraced sikhism.they should be good hindus because god
    made them hindus
     
  11. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Veer,
    In my humble opinion Guru nanak ji was NOT a Hindu...He said so Himself..Na hum hindu na mussalmaan, Allah Raam ke Pind Praan..

    Jarnail Singh gyani
     
  12. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    i am not saying that guru nanak dev ji was hindu.i
    i am saying by this logic our ancestors committed a big mistake when they embraced sikhism.they should be good hindus because god made them hindu. all the sikhs are descendents of either hindus or muslims
     
  13. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh


    Well we are on reserach that weather ancestors of Third masters were Tehan(Jatt) or Trehan(Khatri) and this will give good equtions on intercaste.


    But if Gurus after First Master if some Married it could be possbielbe for Third and Second that theyy were not at all a Sikh during Marrige.

    Fourth Master was married to a Sikh lady so she was not having Caste at all.And Successive Gurus married Sikh ladies and not Khatris.Perhaps we need to research that Brahmnical writers may try to totly write this thing as doubtfull if Sixth master married Mata Kaula(a Muslim) or was she only a Sikh of Guru.
    But people do say that Janam Sakhi saying First Master marrying a Muslim lady(Ranghri) is faked by hindalis.
    a person can be Khtrsi after Yagyopaveet else he is sudra and First Master as per Hindus were Sudras and who so ever hold him Guru was not longer khatri.

    Foruth Master were Sodi only before conversion and thence Sikhs and so were the coming generations.

    Bhai Gurdas 1 and 2 talks of Gurus becoming Sikhs.And Vice Vers also.

    In Guru Granth Sahib Ji Bani we have example of Bhatts,Satta ,Balwand,Bhai Mardana from variour lower or upper rather so called lower or upper Racres having Status of delivers of Gurbani.So since First Master we had concept of Sabad Guru,Guru Panth and gurbar Akal.Ten Masters can not be put like Avtars or Prophets.

    for oppressors someone from thier own opposing oppressing is more heratburning and demoralising.

    Say if poor say richness is bad then Rich can say that it is like just way to conceal own greed for richness or envy but givne a chance poor will also go for richies.

    but when rich denouce richness then poor and Rich actualy feel that richie could be bad and great man found fault in it.Without expiriance of the Thing opposing it may not convive self and others.

    Dalits themselves have infrotrty complex often rose by upper caste to let them feel low.else Valmiki is Brahman Avtar in Dasham Granth and Bani of varous so called lower Caste is in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    but Bhai Mardana enjoyed status equal to Guru as he was first Sikh(his ancestors and before conversion he was scavenger or doom,often do immmoral works also).He got his Bani recorded.
    I is OK to marry within all faiths and there is a Sakhi that once a Sikh lady was married to non Sikh also,who later converted to Panth much after.

    As our way of life is very differant to Muslims so mariage with them can only be done if either of us can convert.We can anyway practise or attempt or experiment with Muslims also.

    by the way das often sees Sikh women being made fun of after getting married to hindu family and jokes been craked on thier Sikh family members.At least some Hindus are reactioanries and they must avoid this.
    This thing is wrong.But often so called lower caste put it to get reservation in govt. jobs in India and so called upper castes for place in Indiajn militray soldeirs rank.
    Nanak Gaya Jape Jaye.

    Japu ji Sahib talk of Guru visit to the copurt of Lord.

    Das has been repeating that we are semtic Faiths and like Christians have to do with Jews.Muslims with Christians and so Sikhs with Muslims.

    There was no hindusim at the time of Guru.so nothing hindu about it.

    Pophet got instrcution from Heavan.Guru went to heavan.

    anyway there could be deepr scintifc message of Oh Nanank things going seems to appear going(reltivity) ijn above vserse.

    But majority of our verses are Nanak as Second person and God is speaker and Nanak is addressed.

    Did indians only folowed Guru.

    Shiis(Shia of Iran) Sipleeds(Baghdad) and Tibetians were they Indians?

    to be sikh one has to renouce the national identities or say Indianness.

    We have to first decide that which type of god is being talked about here.Our god is omni visible.then how can not that God speak via entity.

    Very Good.

    who cried and gave up ghost.Illoi illoi Il ma ba La Sa Ch,My God,My god why you forsake me.

    These were the words Lord Jesus on cross.

    and did not he prayed to God,My father if possible remove this cup from me.cup here is his sacrifise.

    coming to Guru,he in fact shouted in glory to Eternal when his children werem martyered.


    He in fact told that he is slave of God.He was human.Yes when the news of his son came from sirhind(these were other two sons who were young) there was a line of water in eye.

    People asjed that you are Like God then why does this occuered.He said that when leafe is plucked from tree sone water does come out.This is just done to let you know that I am moratal(this was done just to show the peoplpee that not to follow his persinoalty but his God).

    Later when mothers Asked him about fate of his sons,he told happly,For these offsprings(Sikhs sitting) Sacrifised four sons.If Four died no matter as Thousneds are still present.

    Like Jude Ditched Lord Jesus while Lord knew that he will ditch but gave him(jude) full time to reform,Guru knew Gurra Khan will stab him yet Khan was givne time to refrom yet he stabeed Guru.This is inspiration to us that to end sin keep on trying upto great limit even if it couse death.

    Two sons at Sirhind were done to death was something averse to humanity then to Sikhs and any person would have cried. But Guru controled himslef.

    person writing reply is non Punjabi and Panth is there to areas till where First Master went to preach but form is differant.

    People from Punjab are more poupulras else Five beloved had only one Punjabi.

    If you find it Bad then there could be something wrong with you.


    Why do yuo not cut your nose?Please give proper reason?


    As in old Testment God tells that blood has life and meat does not after blood is removed.

    Our Faith sees God both in meat and blood so no dulity even in Old Testment Abraham(PBUH) was told that killing willbe in totality and so sheding blood was symbol of that and not of draining the blood to kill the animal.

    We can have kosher if animal is givne pain killer as it is Maass(meat) of Abhkhiya(Hebro) but not Kutha(killed with pain on animal).

    Yet we oppse the dulaity of not seeing same God in blood and flesh and killling with pain,while God tells Abraham(PBUH) to kill the animal fast or totaly(After the episode of Ishaq(PBUH)/Ismail(PBUH)) and sheding of blood means to make animal dead before eating and not draining blood to death.
    In Japu Ji Sahib ,Term Kateeb is mentioned.And Three intial Kateebs are whole Bible.

    We behold Holy Ghost as our God and Father and son as manifestations.When talk of sea then waves are just included.

    Christians are mentiojned in Vars of Bhai Gurdas.Westners and Angeel in Dasham Granth and Lord Jesus in sau Sakhi.

    But we do not have any consideration for personal worship for Lord Jesus and same is true for our Guru.In our Lord onlywe trust.

    Das is surprised that if you put Surdas(Vaishnav),Satta,Balwand(Sikhs),Sheikh Farid(Sufi Muslim),Kabeer(Rebel Muslim),Pipa(Devi worshipper) as one with same idelogy.
    We belive that God is in all and in does God speaks.

    When ever God sayng was deemed fit for realisation of Truth we got it recoreded.

    By the way do you thinkg that God never sopoke anything outside Bible or Lord Jesus did not speak which is not recoreded in Bible?

    Do son and father still not talking in heavan after holy Bible was made?
    This is wrong.Only God is to be trusted and have faiht in.Like many times due to pagan influence people forget Yehva and make golden calf but ultimatly God wins.This satnic traits is in all.
    Only Gays and not lesbians and why this sexaul discrimnations.

    It is varried from one order to another.Gays can maary but so far our code has custom of Male and Feamle marrige yet we can thing something upon Gays.

    Oberstion based upon sex detrmination is sin.But in grave circumstance abortion can be done.

    If we are hard to follow and ritualistics then why are you asking such questions to uis while we are fighting often for gayy rights or on abortions isues.We see God in gays and God is featues but some time to save life of Mother abortion can be done.

    Have you read Dasham Granth and do you have good knwoeldge of Farsi,Braj,Bhojpuri so that you can understand it?

    By the way do you ahve good knoweldge of Hebrow,Aramic and Greek and do you at all have origeonal versin of Holy Bible in the same languages and not personaly biased tranlations in English based upon sects?
    Das is interested to see that where are such Gurudwaras where one so called Caste does not allowe other caste to come in.

    by the way why do we have spearte Alexdenrian churches for Blacks in sourther Africa and White churches with Protestant Taggs still have names like English Baptist church and Indain Baptist Church.By name anyway does Inidan is not allowed in English church or South in Indain not allowed in Church of North India or say in mongolarian Church.
    give single quote where worship of any demi god is given?

    By the way why does name Father,Son and Holy Ghost comes in holy Bible while unitray Church was ofented damned in past and dying at present.

    All demigods are manifesations of Akal and can be mere concept only.and Lord Jesus is not an exception nor Mother marry.nor that fahter whi makes makes Man like 'his' image.

    So we talk of male God,who commints adultary or debuchary with ladt called Maary as some of ex Christians say.
    Well so far you think that God lives somewhere in space and due to occupying space has some form and we need to have paht to reach that space.

    Well our God is everywhere.When God wants Path,destiantion and attemptee all are seen as one God.

    We have faith by mercy of God that our God is not bounded or hypocrtically omnipotant that God can not give salvation to anyone.

    We say that our god can salvage anyone.It is in control of god and not man and one day in alfa stage all willbe back in God apperantly as so far we are in same postion but those who are in holy Ghost(God) can see and feel that.

    yuo got the answers.
    In the name of Father ,Son and the Holy Ghost,Amen.

    (to oterh Sikhs,this is handiwork of bible purists like we have the one in us or say Wahabis or Araya Samajis,while there are mnay Good faithfull to yehova and can be Jesuits,Yehava witness or Orthodoxs)
     
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