Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Quantum Physics, Science and Sikhism

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by ProjectNaad, Sep 5, 2007.

  1. ProjectNaad

    ProjectNaad
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2007
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    1
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    SciTech Plants Seen Doing Quantum Physics ? Breaking News Jun 21, 2013
    SciTech New Quantum Dot Technique Combines Best of Optical and Electron Microscopy Breaking News Jun 17, 2013
    SciTech Will We Ever Understand Quantum Theory? Breaking News Jan 28, 2013
    Quantum Consciousness: The Way to Reconcile Science and Spirituality Interfaith Dialogues Jul 19, 2010
    The Quantum Brain, Spirituality, and the Mind of GodThe qu Spiritual Articles Mar 25, 2010

  3. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2007
    Messages:
    4,578
    Likes Received:
    1,606
  4. Sinister

    Sinister
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2006
    Messages:
    907
    Likes Received:
    394
    whoa these are slippery slopes

    and how does sikhism explain the behaviour of a particle in a box? or the orientation and energy levels of electrons in molecular orbitals just before bonding?

    science and sikhi are not the same...one is a lesson in morality the other a lesson in trying to understand natural events. what you are doing is the same thing christian philosophers did by integrating aristotelian science to dogma (only to be disappointed with the advent of modern science).

    what you should ask yourself: If science had said the exact opposite of what is written in the Granth would you have excluded it? or better yet, pass the science off as incorrect and inaccurate?

    In my opinion this a fruitless project. The two dont have anything in common...the fact that they agree superfiscially is a fact of convenience rather than a fact of divine cosmic revelation.

    cheers



    PS:
    the distance from the earth to the moon was first calculated by Erastothenes (working with ratios provided by Aristochos of Samos) in 230-310 BC! he measured it to within an accuracy of 10%.
    Note: he was the first to calculate this distance.... now during the time of the Guru's (1600-1700 years later) we can imagine that this number and inaccuracy would only have reduced.
    (he was more popularly known for calculating the circumference of the earth...and he did it with extreme accuracy)

    so... that knowledge already existed. Astronomy was a mature science even during the time of our Guru's (which is a common misconception). Even Indian astrologers and astronomers were interested in these things. The arrival of the mughals would have only added to indian poupulations existing knowledge (forming a network of consensus amongst greek/egyption/arabic/persian/indian astronomers)

    the discovery of planets was known by many ... you had astronomers like Tyco Brahe (1546-1601) who were calculating and mapping planetary motion extremely accurately (somtimes deviating by less than 1/2 an degree). You also have accurate historical accounts by both greek and egyption scholars of supernova events (which concluded finally that the cosmos was not static and continously changing... rejuvinating and producing new things while destryoing others).

    atom theorists also existed in egypt! long before the coming of our guru's and
    Dr. Dalton's proposition of a small particles.
     
  5. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    yes i knew the greeks, egyptians etc knew many things that are metioned by the gurus in guru granth sahib but there is one thing i dont get... how did the gurus know that stuff??
    that knowledge was lost for quite a while
     
  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    The Greeks and Egyptians learned their lessons from the sages of India. Europe lost track of the knowledge of the ancient world -- as part of a scheme of planned forgetting. Modern Europe rediscovered the ancient world and its knowledge, in large part because of texts and records preserved in the east.

    The ancient wisdom of India was never forgotten in India. It was handed down generation to generation in, down into the time of the Gurus, and even until today.

    How did the ancient wisdom travel from India to Egypt and Greece? Trade routes -- the Silk Road, the Spice Road, and by sea through to the Mediterranean Sea. The ancient world of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and later Muslims, was a busy place where books containing knowledge of ideas and philosophies were packed up on mules and camels along with silk, spices and gold. And holy men traveled these routes as well. As the West fell in to the Dark Ages; the East retained its libraries, philosophers, and traditions of knowledge without interruption.

    Cool, huh?
     
  7. Sikh80

    Sikh80
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,369
    Likes Received:
    54
    Thank You for providing a reference to such an interesting and revealing topic.
    There are some friends of mine who would be interested in this type of info.
     
  8. Sinister

    Sinister
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2006
    Messages:
    907
    Likes Received:
    394
    "yes i knew the greeks, egyptians etc knew many things that are metioned by the gurus in guru granth sahib but there is one thing i dont get... how did the gurus know that stuff??
    that knowledge was lost for quite a while "

    ---Bhagat Singh


    Well.... the knowledge was never "lost" it was just translated into different sources and perserved from the religious nut jobs in Europe.

    And do not forget the fact that indian astronomers were also extremely successfull. Aryabhatta was studying motions of the solar system and heliocentric models in the end of the 5th century (india was an advanced civilization....mystical and spiritual no doubt..... but advanced in terms of engineering and practical observational science)

    Siddhanta Shiromani (12th century) was another established indian astronomer (researched lunar/solar eclipses, developed various astronomical instruments for measurement)

    Indian theorists also postulated the existance of atoms..."sapekshavad" it was a philosophical concept that explained atoms and elements. entire groups of theoriest known as atomists existed on the indian subcontinent.

    aad0002 explains this well...knowledge did travel Both from india to the middle east and from the middle east to india. Even Guru Nanak's spiritual messages made it to the far reaches of the middle east. So knowledge travelled with trade.

    While the europeans plunged into the dark ages and started persecuting men of science the east perserved, capitilised and expanded on the ancient knowledge.

    However, after europes "political reorganization" (the late middle ages) the ball of science started to role again producing scientists like Copernicus, Brahe, Bruno, Kepler, Galileo, Newton, Descartes (the Renaissance had started after the fall of Constantinople...which lead to the rediscovery of ancient texts)


    but there is no connection between quantum mechanics and the teachings of our guru. thus i will reiterate;
    the fact that they agree superfiscially is a fact of convenience rather than a fact of divine cosmic revelation.
     
    #7 Sinister, Oct 26, 2007
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2007
  9. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Sinister ji

    The rediscovery of ancient texts by Europe is an aspect of history that excites me every time. Bagdad was a repository of important literature for centuries. The city must have been an immense collection of libraries and book sellers. The writings of Greek philosophers were preserved and also discussed in the discourse of Islamic scholars in Northern Africa and the Middle East. The Pope in Rome knew of Guru Nanaak and his teachings. Perhaps we in the modern and post modern age made some discoveries, and so we also think history began with us. Wish I had the time to study this in earnest.
     
  10. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,308
    Likes Received:
    54
    Dear Sinister

    Thanks a lot for such an interesting information and that to in very coherent way . I could almost understand everythin you wrote


    Yes I would tend to agree with you on this one but I would add something that is TECHINICALLY there is nothin similar in these two things as one is Praise of the whole and other is science of the whole ( quantam)

    so they are not same but but some body at some stage it might seems that they both are trying to reach out for same thing that is science of everthing

    In short Recently I watched some documentaries about the reent development about Quantam Physics and I would say I really felt the same excitement and sense of Joy as I find in reading the praise of the whole ( religious scripture not specifically SGGGS)

    MAy be its just me but one of my clossest friend also share this feeling

    anyway thanks and I just wrote what I understand about it


    Jatinder Singh
     
  11. clarkejoey

    clarkejoey
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2007
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    2
    Sat sri akal!

    And thanks for the homework. I've met Quantum Physics before, but not in a Sikh context. Those articles will certainly play a role this weekend.

    To my mind, what folks call Quantum Physics is simply what happens when scientific investigation, having reached its limit, looks at what spirituals have been drumming into it for millenia: that there is more to this world than meets the eye, the microscope, the x-ray or any other external "looker".

    To see that "more", we need to use the inner eye, which doesn't deal in scientific criteria like evidence, numbers and previous experience... or at least deals with those things on a different level.

    This looks like a good spot for a quotation, but i'm just not familiar enough with scripture.
     
  12. Huck_Finn

    Huck_Finn
    Expand Collapse
    (previously amarsanghera, account deactivated at t
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,324
    Likes Received:
    145
    i donot want to have religious glasses for looking at science and also scientific glasses while having faith.
     
  13. kay

    kay
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    0
  14. kay

    kay
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    0
    is there any errors in your scripture, becuase 1 error is enough to say that it is not from the creator, becuase the creator cannot make any mistakes. intresting read though.
     
  15. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
    Expand Collapse
    gone to greener pastures
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    28

    because we still have original copies written in Bhai Mani Singh's hand (he was the scribe for Guru Gobind Singh ji). the Guru Granth Sahib in it's complete form is only about 300 years old... we are a modern religion so we still have the actual texts written by our Gurus.

    how do you know the qur'an hasn't been changed? :)
     
  16. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
    Expand Collapse
    gone to greener pastures
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    28

    nope, there aren't any errors... the Guru Granth Sahib is the Shabad Guru, the living word of God. it does not contain errors.

    however, as it is a collection of poetry, philosophy, etc and not a scientific text, i don't think that's something you can verify with mathematical formulas. :)
     
  17. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
    Expand Collapse
    gone to greener pastures
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    28
    altering Gurbani is a serious sin in the Sikh religion. following is the story of Ram Rai, son of Guru Har Rai, and what happened when he changed even one word of Gurbani for his own benefit:

    [SIZE=+2]Ram Rai and the sin of altering Gurbani[/SIZE]
    Emperor Aurangzeb was on a crusade againt Hindus. Jealous persons within the Emperor’s court tried to extend this crusade further to the Guru’s Sikhs. To find out further about the Guru, Guru Har Rai Sahib Jee, Aurangzeb summoned Him to his presence in Delhi. The Guru had vowed not to see the Emperor. Instead he sent his eldest son Ram Rai to Delhi, instructing him to rely on the divine ower of the Gurus, not in any way recede from the principles of his religion, and in all his words and actions to fix his thought on God, everything would prove successful.
    When the Emperor was informed that the Guru had not come himself but sent his son, he thought that if his object in trying the Guru was not fulfilled by his son, he would send for the Guru himself. Ram Rai performed seventy miracles. The Emperor sent him poisoned robes which he wore but was not hurt. In one interview a sheet of cloth was spread over a deep well so that Ram Rai when asked to sit, would fall into the well. The sheet did not give way and Ram Rai was miraculously preserved. The Emperor was shown the sight of Mecca while sitting in Delhi. After seventy such miracles were shown, Aurangzeb was almost convinced of Ram Rai's powers and became friendly to him. Then came the last question. The Qazis' asked Ram Rai," Ram Rai, your Guru Nanak has written against the Muslim religion. In one place he has said,
    'Mitti Musalman ki peirei paee kumiar; Ghar bhandei itan kia, jaldi karei pukar.' (Asa Mohalla 1, p-466)
    'The ashes of the Mohammadan fall into the potter's clod; Vessels and bricks are fashioned from them; they cry out as they burn.'

    What is the meaning of this?"
    Ram Rai had won Aurangzeb's respect so much that he perhaps did not want to displease him and forgot his father's parting injunctions not to recede from the principles of his religion. So in order to please the Emperor, Ram Rai replied," Your Majesty, Guru Nanak wrote, 'Mitti beiman ki', that is the ashes of the faithless, not of the Musalmans, fall into the potter's clod. The text has been corrupted by ignorant persons and Your Majesty's religion and mine defamed. The faces of the faithless and not of the Musalmans, shall be blackened in both worlds." All the Mohammadan priests were pleased with this reply. The Emperor then conferred a mark of favor on Ram Rai and dissolved the assembly.
    The Sikhs of Delhi immediately sent an envoy to Kiratpur and informed the Guru of the pomp and honor with which Ram Rai had been received in Delhi, and detailed miracles he had exhibited. The envoy then explained how he had made an alteration in a line of Guru Nanak in order to please the Emperor. The Guru was much distressed at the insult and remarked that no mortal could change the words of Guru Nanak and that 'the mouth which had dared to do so should never be seen by me.' The Guru decided that Ram Rai was not fit for Guruship. He confirmed," The Guruship is like a tigress's milk which can only be contained in a golden cup. Only he who is ready to devote his life thereto is worthy of it."
    After Ram Rai had resided in Delhi for some time, he decided to go to Kiratpur and try to convince his father to reverse his decision regarding him. He pitched his camp near Kiratpur and wrote to his father for permission to visit him. He confessed that he had suffered for his sins and desired forgiveness. The Guru replied,"Ram Rai, you have disobeyed my order and sinned. How can you aspire to become a holy man? Go whither your fancy leads you. I will never see you again on account of your infidelity."



    even today, when one takes Amrit (the initiation to the Khalsa panth), we are told not to associate with those who follow Ram Rai. his punishment continues more than 300 years later.
     
  18. kay

    kay
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    0
    Today over 10 million people has it memorised, this has been happening and have been passed down from generations to generations, ever since it was revealed. If you go to china, mexico, uk, pakistan, canada, bangladesh, indonesia, germany, turkey, egypt > you see the exact same copy of the quran being recited, all with 114 chapters, exactly the same letters, words, etc in all those countries. This means that it must have come from the same source. In turkey and I think in the Uk they have a oldest manuscript of the quran. Non muslims and muslims have both agreed on this fact, you see this on a book written by a french scientist (non muslim), dr maurice bucaille, who writ the book "the quran the bible in the light of science"

    Amazon.com: The Bible, The Quran and Science.: Books: Maurice Bucaille,Alastair D. Pannell,Alastair D. Pannel

    see the reviews on this book. he clearly says that without doubt that this quran is preserved in its complete original. He also analyses many scientific verses in this book, and concludes that there is not a single contradiction in the quran with modern science.

    If your book contains 1 contradition with modern established fact, this is enough to say that it is not a revelation from god. I do have to agree though that science has made a lot of mistakes in the past though, example it was once a scientific fact that the sun is static, this contradicted the quran which stated that the sun is floating on an orbit, later science realised that they were wrong!

    I am actually a new bie to islam - born a muslim was following blindly till i read this critical thinking book and began to question my own faith! There are much better answers than the one i am giving you. But If you are interested i will find better ones.
     
  19. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
    Expand Collapse
    gone to greener pastures
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    28

    well, since it's a book about how to know God, it's not really quantifiable in a scientific sense, so i suppose that means there are no contradictions in it. :)

    but more important is that we BELIEVE it to be not only the true word of the Guru, but the Guru itself! :)
     
  20. kds1980

    kds1980 India
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,504
    Likes Received:
    2,738
    Oh please stop fooling people there are many errors which are found in quran

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SKM/contradictions.htm

    Numerical contradictions

    There are many numerical contradictions in the Quran. Can God make so much error in doing simple calculations?

    How many days did it take to create Heavens and Earth ?

    Quran 7: 54 Your gurdian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

    Quran 10: 3 Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

    Quran 11:7 He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
    Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days

    The above verses clearly state that God created the heaven and Allah created the heaven and the Earth in 6 days. But the verses below stated-

    Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?

    Quran 41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…

    Quran 41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …

    Now do the math: 2(for earth) + 4(for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days

    Similar mistakes you can see in the verse: Quran 4: 11 - 12, and Quran 4: 176 in inheritance law. In these verses one can see the total property after adding all distributed parties adds up more than the available property, i.e., totals become more than 1 which are: 1.125 and 1.25. How come ? A gross mathematical errors, is not it ?

    Is it you call a perfect book from god?
     
  21. ProjectNaad

    ProjectNaad
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2007
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    1

Share This Page