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Professor Sarbjit Singh Dhunda

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by spnadmin, Sep 5, 2011.

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  1. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    He is one of the best Kathawachaks who gives logical and professional interpretations of Gurbani according to Guru Philosophy and not coloured by vedas and pro-sanatanist views.
    Guur nanak ji gave the world a Brand NEW GYAAN..the latest knowledge of Akal Purakh as given in Mool mantar and japji sahib...and then continued in SGGS.
    IF it was just a REHASH of vedas and Puraans..then whats the reason for Guur nanak ji to come and spend over 250 years....perfecting the KHALSA. ??
    The DG brigade (accompanied by the sant baba derwaadees) hate his guts becasue he talks about SGGS and Akal Takhat maryada ONLY exclusively depending on SGGS only.....while they all love the puranas mahabhartas and ramayan mythologicla tall tales and sing two liner jingles called dhaarnas and waddeh mahapurash giving amrit to even dogs and animals to save their souls...and all such utter rubbish..
    Dhunda Ji has served in Malaysia as well as a kathawachak...and he is one shining star..who broadcasts from Gurdawra Bangla sahib...winkingmunda
     
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  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    ALL 6 "comments" on that particluar U-Tube page repeat the same thing.."what no Rehat from 1708-1935 ?? Did the panth just go on wothout a rehat ?? after Guur Gobind Singh ji..blah blah blah...and that the SRM is not passed/its a kharrah (draft) etc etc..

    1. Of course there are Rehits from 1708....BUT theyr were SO MANY, self conflicting and self contradictory, various rehatnamas by singhs, brahmins disguised as singhs etc etc...each had his own Rehat..UNTIL the 1935 SGPC initiated a serious LOOK at ALL existing rehats and coem up with a UNIFORM wella ccepted Common SRM. This Huge took over a DECADE of WORLWIDE Discussion/sujhaas/suggestions form World wide Gurdawras Singh Sabhas, eminet personalities jathebandis etc etc. IN that period fo time such an effort is indeed most COMMENDABLE...Today with the MESS we are in no such effort cna even get off the ground...becasue the opposing sides are so deeply entrenched they wont budge an inch from their OWN JATHEBANDI/DERA Stand. While the Panth accepted this 1935 SRM..the OPPOSING Sant DERAS and Taksaals NEVER ACCEPTED it and have spent the past 5 DECADES SABOTAGING the SRM with all their might. ALL Taksaals, deras, jathas have their OWN Maryadas...set in motion by their own SANT...Nanaksari maryada, rarrewallah maryada, Taksaal Maryada, AKJ maryada..Asutosh maryada, Sacha Sauda maryada, Noormehal Maryada, Radha Soami maryada...ALL are DIFFERENT from each other and from SRM of Akal takhat. TODAY its a TRAGEDY that those who sit on the Takhats themsleves beleive in and follow their OWN DERA Maryadas and NOT Akal takhat maryada. Hazoor sahib ahs its own maryada - slaughter of live goats and shastar tilak is part of that..Patna sahib has its own maryada.. THIS MIX is the reason why so many SIKHS matha tek at Msulim Pir Graves and also in mandirs and Gurdawras..to them its all the same...they wear gatras and Kirpans and have flowing beards and yet also carry Green Chadars at mazaars and present Parshaad at hanuman Mandirs for devi blessings..Havans and chalisas are done by Taksaal Maryada followers...Each plays his own Tabla...:tablakudi:
     
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  5. aristotle

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    Prof. Dhunda is one of the finest preachers who have a finger on the peoples' vein. He does not use many difficult words in his sermons and his rendition of Gurbani too is melodious. What a pity on those who don't enjoy his sermons...
    animatedkhanda1
     
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  6. OSingh

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Sarbjit Singh is totally against Sikh Rahat Maryada:

    Meditating on Nam (Divine Substance) and Scriptures
    Article IV


    1. A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru (Wondrous Destroyer of darkness).
    2. He/she should recite the following scriptural compositions every day :
    a. The Japu, the Jaapu and the Ten Sawayyas (Quartets) - beginning "Sarwag sudh"-- in the morning.


    As per Sikh Rehat Maryada, it is a duty of every Sikh to recite sri Jaap Sahib. This means that Taksal, Sampradia and various Jathas who recite Jaap Sahib are closer to SRM than Sarbjit Singh.

    I guess bhai Vir Singh ji, professor Sahib singh ji and countless other Gurmukhs who recited Jaap sahib and did translations of the great bani, are 'akhauti'. What a fool!

    I have top say this Sarbjit Singh has commited a great mistake for questioning the authenticity of sri Jaap sahib.

    What he can't be forgiven is for using the words 'akhauti' and 'koor parchar'.

    Taksal, AKJ, Nihang and varoius other sampradaia have bought countless into Sikh and still are. Thousands of students are taught Gurbani by Taksal, thousands are being tuaght kirtan, ucharan etc by jatha's who fully believe in Jaap Sahib. Are the 'False' and doing 'False Prachar' as Sarbjit Singh is saying.

    I bow my head to Gurmukhs from AKJ, Taksal, Nihang..... who have inspired countless to keep kesh, recite bani, kirtan etc. How can we just smear all these great jathebandis because they recite sri Jaap Sahib?

    So bhai Vir Singh ji and professor Sahib Singh ji (Guru Granth darpan) believed and recited Jaap sahib, so were they doing 'koor parchar' and are they 'akhauti'?

    How many thousand today read professor Sahib Singh's works on Gurbani. Is he 'false' and doing 'false parchar'? Professor Sahib Singh is our SatkarYog.

    Here is professor Sahib Singh ji's take on sri Jaap Sahib:

    "‘Jaap’ Sahib is the ‘bani’ of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. From the rehatnamas [we find] Satguru Ji insisting that every Sikh should, at the very least, recite Japji and Jaap every morning. This bani is also read during the preparation of ‘Amrit’"

    read more on - http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Jaap_Sahib_Steek

    So SRM and many prominent Gurmukhs preached on the importance, today many are still reading books by Vir Singh ji and Sahib Singh ji. They have bought countless towards Guru Sahib not to mention countless other Gurmukhs who believed and recited Jaap Sahib.

    How can anyone dare say these great Gurmukhs were doing kuur parchar?!

    As per SRM:

    Ceremony of Baptism or Initiation

    Article XXIV



    j. The scriptural composition to be recited are : The Japuji, The Jaap, The Ten Sawayyas (commencing with Sarawag Sud), The Bainti Chaupai (From "hamri karo hath dai rachha" to "dusht dokh te leho te bachai"), Anand Sahib.

    So those that are in agreement with Sarbjit Singh, how will you perform amrit sanchar without Jaap Sahib? If you follow SRM you it is mandatory to read this bani as part of your nitnem and it must be read durin amrit sanchar.

    Unfortunate are those that do not recite sri Jaap sahib.

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
     
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  7. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Sangat ji

    What is your understanding of how the Jaap Sahib became part of the SRM?
     
  8. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    1. I have nothing to say the least against what OSingh ji veer has written. 110% in agreement with all his points.I was given the jail Chitthian of BSB Randhir Singh as a gift for my 5th birthday by my late dad and he also gifted me the knowledge of how to appreciate all the other 50 or so books by BSB.
    2. My appreciation of Prof Dhunda is based on his interpreattion and katha of Gurbani...which i find commendable. Points 1 and 2 are not mutually exclusive for me...agreement with 1 doesnt have to excluse 2...not in my book.
    3. Jaap sahib is part of SRM. period. Any and all have to accept that as long as it states so in SRM. Personal disagreement is personal level.
    4 Its also a undeniable fact that the Rehatnamahs and all historicla records of vasakhi 1699 FAIL to note down the actual banis read...only japji sahib is named in most...rest of the banis differ from one to the other....sad but true. The SRM committee in 1035 came to an agreement and selected these banis based on evidence available at THAT time...facts can CHANGE..evidence cna becoem available...and so its a Fallacy to argue that just becasue Bhai Vir Singh read this..its Gurbani...or that becasue so and so snat said this..its true...the ONLY UNDENIABLE TRUTH is GURBANI in SGGS. all else is man made. The banis outside SGGS read at PAHUL are simply for PAHUL and proscribed as Nitnem. period. This was what i was told by the panj and I will stick to that until the panj tell me otherwise.
     
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  9. OSingh

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    Its funny how Taksal, Jatha and other samprdaia are always bashed, but they are following SRM by reciting sri Jaap Sahib.

    Sarbjit Singh by rejecting sri Jaap Sahib is going against SRM.

    I can accept that people have questions regarding Dasam Granth, more research is required. However calling those that promote sri Jaap Sahib as 'akhauti' and doing 'false parchar' is anti-panthic and anti-SRM. How many people has Sarbjit Singh insulted in above video? Countless Gursikhs have been reciting sri Jaap Sahib as part of their nitnem, Vidhvaan's such as bhai Kahn Singh Nabha ji, kirtanis such as bhai Jasbir Singh Khanne ji.........

    So many Gursikhs who have read this bani have inspired others to chakk amrit and japp naam.

    Prominent Gursikhs were involved in SRM like bhai Vir Singh ji. They came to the decision that sri Jaap Sahib is bani of Guru Gobind Singh ji and is mandatory in Amrit Sanchar and Nitnem. So anybody that follows SRM cannot reject this bani or they are going against panthic maryada.

    Anyway I'm not against debate, but such a debate should take place on a panthic level with good Sikh scholars. Producing such videos and name-calling will get us nowhere.

    I'm seriously shocked that people are questioning the authenticity of sri Jaap Sahib.

    At the very least sri Choupai Sahib and sri Jaap Sahib should not be questioned at all.

    Also we should be careful in the maguage we use when discussing Dasam Bani.

    Rabb Rakhe
     
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  10. OSingh

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    Here are 2 examples from none other than bhai Nand Lal Singh ji, beloved Sikh of sri Guru Gobind Singh ji:

    ਜਪੁ ਜੀ ਜਾਪੁ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਚਿੱਤ ਲਾਇ

    Read and concentrate on sri Jap ji sahib and sri Jaap sahib

    ਕਰਿ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪ

    Do ishnan and read sri Jap ji sahib and sri Jaap sahib

    Bhai Prahlad Singh:

    ਬਿਨਾ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪੁ ਜਪੇ, ਜੋ ਜੋਵਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
    They who eat without reciting japji Sahib and Jaap Sahib (Nitnem)
    ਸੋ ਬਿਸਟਾ ਕਾ ਕਿਰਮ ਹੁਇ, ਜਨਮ ਗਵਾਵੈ ਬਾਦ
    Are no better then waste and are ruining their lives.


    The anti-dasam granth group seem to find any fault with a manuscript then discard the whole document! This is wrong.

    There are many other rehitname's which confirm sri Jaap sahib shpuld be recited. I agree some rehitname's might have been tampered with, but we should be able to use the touchstone of Gurbani to take the Gurmat Rehits out of the Manmat Rehits.

    Sri Jaap seems to be mentioned in most rehitname's as a nitnem bani.

    The reason I mentioned bhai Vir singh is that he is widely respected in panth along with professor Sahib Singh. Also professor ji doesn't belong to any jatha, dera,taksal. So nobody can use the dera, taksal,baba card : )
    Professor Sahib came to the conclusion sri Jaap Sahib is the rachna (creation) of Guru Gobind Singh.

    Most significant of all committee of SRM came to conclusion sri Jaap sahib is rachna of Guru Gobind Singh.

    Note - Sarbjit Singh called those that believe, preach sri Jaap sahib are 'akhauti' - false and do 'false/garbage parchar'. With this one statement he has insulted countless Gursikhs.

    Rabb Rakhe
     
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  11. Tejwant Singh

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    O Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    You sound a bit upset and I have no idea why. Disagreements are part and parcel of our learning process called Sikhi way of life. Yes, SRM says we should read Jaap and other poetry which some claim to be written by Guru Gobind Singh ji.

    The only person who could claim that would be Guru Gobind Singh ji himself and we know he did not. So, in a way the scholars of yesteryears and many of today's are undermining our Dasam Pita, who sacrificed his own father, his four sons, lowered himself to our level to raise us up to his by making us Khalsa through Khandei di pahul.

    A polyglot scholar like Guru Gobind Singh added his father's Gurbani on different pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, not just at the end as many think, and the most important part that all of us should remind ourselves as often as possible is, that he did not add a single word of his own.

    This brings up the big question, WHY?

    The simple answer is,"No one knows why, except Guru Gobind Singh himself".

    Now, if those who call themselves scholars claim to know the answer of the above, then they are doing nothing but second guessing our Dasam Pita which is an insult and uncalled for. They are doing dis-service to Sikhi no matter how good their intentions were/are.

    Bhai Vir Singh ji was a great scholar of his time and added a lot to Sikhi knowledge. There is no question about it. He was also one of those people who concocted Hemkunt, an anti Sikhi concept along with other Sikh scholars. I am sure you know the "his story" (of Dasam Pita) created by them to justify their finding. It has become an annual obligatory pilgrimage for many Sikhs as a ritualistic Hajj.

    Prof. Sahib Singh has the best interpretation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru and it has become the foundation stone to take his wonderful elaboration farther.

    The above two things prove that Sikhi is an ever evolving way of life and it has not stopped in time like other religions, the point I have repeated many times in my posts.

    No one knows for sure which banis were recited outside of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji during Khandei di pahul ceremony. But if our Dasam Pita had recited anything out of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the logical conclusion dictates, based on his actions that he must have added that to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru first as he did his father's Guru Teg Bahadur's bani.

    We all know that the three Banis of our Nitnem are in the beginning of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, in the following order:

    1. Jap
    2. Sou Dhar (Rehras without Chapaui and anand)
    3. Sohila

    You mentioned poetry by Bhai Nand Lal in one of your posts. The fact of the matter is that neither the poetry of Bhai Nand Lal nor of Bhai Gurdas' passed the benchmark that our visionary Gurus had established, hence they were not added into Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

    There are some threads regarding Hemkunt and Bhai Gurdas in this wonderful forum. I would urge you to go through them and share your thoughts with us. There is also a little article regarding SRM which I wrote many years ago which can be found through search.

    We are all Sikhs, learners, seekers, students and because of this, disagreements will arise often which would challenge us to broaden our horizons which is a true Sikhi spirit.

    So, please do not take anything I wrote as an offence but a part of a healthy interaction.

    Hope to hear from you.

    Thanks and regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    OSingh Ji, Gurfateh.

    We have to always keep in mind thta the only one ABHULL is Guru Kartaar Himself.

    ALL others no matter how great can and have made mistakes. This is my main point of contention with the Jatha followers of BSB Randhir Singh...He was agreat Gursikh BUT not Guru kartar....same applies to Bhai Vir Singh, Prof Sahib Singh, and various other lesser scholars...each is just a human and can make mistakes.

    This is the 3rd millineum, we have various new methods and techniques to check writings and discerning minds tuned to enquire and explore. Whatever frauds committed on the Sikh kaum by various vested interests long ago can be exposed with these new methods of research..the INTERNET places at our FINGER TIPS more resources than any man ever dreamed of...the resources Bhai vir singh etc had at his command were seriously limited...today even you and I cna have access to vast libraries, original manuscripts all over the world at the click of a mouse and so our HORIZONS are much much wider than those departed scholars...Its a FACT that the ENEMY that encountered GURU NANAK JI form Day ONE (Janeau rejection) was very strong and is even stronger TODAY. All his energy has been spent in assimilating Gurmatt into Hinduism..and hes still going at it as strongly as he can...while the Sikhs are weak and splintered..we only have Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our TOUCH STONE....and what a fantastic Touch stone it is..no one has yet been able to come near to doubting its contents and survived...but this cannot be said of the writings outside Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So I keep an open mind...
     
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  13. OSingh

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    Tejwant Singh ji

    I have provided some sources for authenticity of sri Jaap Sahib.

    Who can deny bhai Nand Lal singh ji's writings, he was a contemporary of Guru Gobind Singh.

    Rehitname are vital documents no one can dismiss these documents. What we have to do is take out the milk and leave the insects, extract the truth from these documents.

    ਜਪੁ ਜੀ ਜਾਪੁ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਚਿੱਤ ਲਾਇ
    ਕਰਿ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪ

    Above two lines are from bhai Nand Lal Singh ji. In my opinion this is great evidence to support authenticity of sri Jaap Sahib. Also Bhai Nand Lal Singh ji's writing hold great importance in the panth and bhai Nand Lal Singh ji's works can even be recited as per SRM:

    Article VI

    c) In the congragation, Kirtan only of Gurbani (Guru Granth's or Guru Gobind Singh's hymns) and, for its elaboration, of the compositions of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal, may be performed.

    I urge you to read the bani of Gurmukh, Bhai Nand Lal Singh ji, so far I haven't found anything anti-gurmat in his writings. His bani is widely accepted in the panth, the only reason their bani is not quoted more is that Sikh's have lost ability to speak/write Farsi.

    If Rahit Nama document (bhai Nand Lal ji)is authentic, which I think it is. Then we can conclude that sri Jaap Sahib is authentic and should be recited.

    Sarbjit Singh doesn't provide any evidence in the video above, he just seems to think those that read/promote this bani are 'akhauti' and doing 'koor parchar'.

    Another great test is to actually do paath of sri Jaap sahib and sri Choupai sahib.

    Sri Choupai Sahib is great bani. After reciting this bani, I have not an iota of doubt this is sri Dasmesh ji's rachna. Have you tried actually doing paath of sri Choupai sahib? For me the personal experience of reciting Jaap sahib and Choupai Sahib are ther greatest proofs for me. Sri Choupai Sahib is addictive, when you do paath once, its hard to imagine not reciting this baani. Same goes for sri Jaap Sahib.

    Also, Tejwant Singh, the ardas we recite everyday, in which document is the dohra recorded?

    Giani Jarnail Singh ji, what is the source for 'sawa lakh se ek larraoan'?

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
     
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  14. Tejwant Singh

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    OSingh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    You write:

    Let's be honest about things here as we are talking about Gurmat ideals on which Sikhi is based. You have not provided any source for authenticity of Jaap. You have provided opinions and presumptions by others including yourself. As mentioned in my previous post that the only person who can provide authenticity is Guru Sahib himself, not others who are trying to play him.

    Our Gurus did, hence they are not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. If you do not believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our only Guru and nothing else, then there is no more argument.

    Your above post is nothing but full of assumptions and presumptions. If any Rehatnaama does not compliment Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru then those Rehatnaamas should be discarded and rejected vehemently by the Panth and by us.

    Well, let me ask you a question, why didn't the above lines pass the benchmark set by our visionary Gurus in order to be added into Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

    You are assuming a lot which does not and can not authenticate anything.

    It seems you have not read what I wrote about SRM and requested you to do. SRM was written long time ago. It needs to be updated. The fact still remains that neither of these authors' poetry was added to our ultimate Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and if we think otherwise then we are not only second guessing our Gurus' vision and decisions but also undermining Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

    One more assumption and prejudgement about me from you. How do you know I have not read Bhai Nand Lal ji? And btw, he never took khandei di pahul and became a Singh. It is you who has addedthe Khalsa name to his name several times on your own. You are adding things up by making them up.

    One more assumption by you which undermines our Gurus including Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    What kind of evidence are you looking for?

    One more assumption again.

    Yes, I have.:blueturban:
    In fact I have studied the whole Choupai which is part of so called Dasam Granth. In the latter parts, sexual things are mentioned. We only read just a part of it. The sanitised version.

    Have you studied the whole Choupai or have been reciting just the clean version? If you have not, please read the whole Choupai and share your views with us.

    It is your opinion which again undermines our Gurus. Nothing more.

    There is also a thread about Ardaas in this forum in which you will find my comments regarding it.

    Hope to hear from you

    Thanks for this lovely interaction. I am sure it is a learning experience for both of us and also for other readers of this wonderful forum.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  15. OSingh

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    "You have not provided any source for authenticity of Jaap."

    I have provided sources from bhai Nand Lal Singh and bhai Prahlad Singh, since Guru Gobind Singh ji is not here in deh (body) roop (form) we have to go on other evidence such as documents like rehit name.

    Our Guru Sahiban did not include Khalsa Rehit in sri Guru Granth Sahib. Does that mean we should not keep kakars like kirpan or maintain kesh?, of course not!

    For me, Sarbjit Singh has undermined Guru Sahiban by dismissing sri Jaap sahib so easily. He doesn't provide a shred of evidence for his views.

    It seems that it will be impossible for me to prove to you that sri Jaap sahib is authentic. In spite of SRM maryada, rehitname of bhai Nand Lal Singh ji and bhai Prahlad Singh ji you have not budged. What more can I do? I don't have the kamai, gunn or jeeevan to summon Guru Gobind Singh ji from Sachkhand so that he can give you these answers in person.

    However as Giani Jarnail Singh ji has stated, we have the touchstone of Gurbani, sri Jaap Sahib definitely passes this test.

    Also I would like to point out that the ardas we do today, the writings are preserved in manuscripts OUTSIDE of sri Guru Granth Sahib ji:

    Bhai Nand Lal Singh ji, Tankahnama:

    ਰਾਜ ਕਰੇਗਹ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਆਕੀ ਰਹੇ ਨਾ ਕੋਇ
    ਖ਼ਵਾਰ ਹੋਇ ਸਭ ਮਿਲੇਂਗੇ ਬਚੇ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਜੋ ਹੋਇ ॥

    and bhai Prahlad singh ji:

    ਸਭ ਸਿਖਨ ਕੋ ਬਚਨ ਹੈ, ਗੁਰੂ ਮਾਨੀਅਹੁ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ The command for all the Sikhs is to accept the Granth Sahib as your Guru.

    So our famous dohra is preserved in documents OUTSIDE of sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. This means that these documents have importance. We can utilize these documents to come to conclusions.

    Using the argument that since we can't ask Guru Sahib in person is not fair and immature in my opinion. Our Guru ji has blessed us with Bibek Budh to decipher truth from falsehood.

    Also language used by anti-Dasam group is not right. They use blanket statements such as '****** kavita', 'koor parchar', 'akhauti' which in my opinion which is anti-gurmat. We need to keep in mind so many of our great Gursikhs recited and preached sri Dasam Bani. So before labelling people as 'akhauti' we should think a million times first.

    Neverthless, it must be stressed that sri Jaap Sahib and sri Choupai Sahib are mandatory Banis for Amrit Sanchar. Nobody should remove these banis from Amrit Sanchar ceromony as one group already has, shame on them. Also we should be careful in language we use when discussing Dasam Bani, we might be insulting great Gursikhs and most importantly Guru Gobind Singh ji himself.

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
     
  16. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    OSingh ji,


    Only a question to help me follow this thread. Where did Gyani ji say that "sri Jaap Sahib definitely passes this test." ??????? As in your quote below


    I have not been able to find it. Maybe someone could give me the permalink or the post number. I would appreciate it.
     
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  17. aristotle

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    First of all, Guru Ji is with us, and will remain always, in the form of Guru Granth Sahib. To negate this fact would be a more serious offence to Sikhi than even apostasy.

    Secondly, you are advocating the 'Rehatnamas' the authenticity of which is very much questionable in itself. The Rehatnamas even promote the caste system, Havan-yagyas, Sanatani rituals etc. will you accept even those then? For an instance,

    "ਗੁਰੂ ਕਾ ਸਿੱਖ ਸਹਿਜਧਾਰੀ, ਰੋਮ ਕੈਂਚੀ ਨਾਲ ਉਤਰਾਵੈ, ਚਿਹਰਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰ ਸਾਬਤ ਰਖੇ।"(ਰਹਿਤਨਾਮਾ ਹਜ਼ੂਰੀ, ਚਉਪਾ ਸਿੰਘ)
    (A Sehajdhari Sikh, shall cut the hair with scissors, but keep that of the face intact)

    "ਜੇ ਸਰਾਧ ਆਵਨ ਤਾਂ ਛੱਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦੁ ਕਰੈ।"(ਸਾਖੀ ਰਹਿਤ ਕੀ, ਭਾਈ ਨੰਦ ਲਾਲ)
    (And when cone the Shraadhs, the Sikh shall prepare numerous delicacies)


    Thirdly, the Jaap Sahib though respectable to us can still be questioned, for the simple reason that it is not a part of the Guru Granth Sahib, our 'ONLY' Guru. Sikhism does not discourage discussions, it is a very modern religion and we should broaden our mindsets to match the horizons of Sikhism. The 'references' you have provided regarding the Jaap Sahib are not even references at all, since they solely rely on personal accounts of people, that too of questionable origin.

    Fourthly, Using the Jaap Sahib as a tool you cannot tell the Sikhs to worship the Dasam Granth. In some 'birs' of Dasam Granth, Jaap Sahib and Zafarnama dont even form a part of the draft, and where they are, the sequence of verses is hotch-potched in many 'birs'. Would you call the Dasam Granth authentic?
    I dont feel approprite to pollute this metaphysical discussion by giving p****graphic and mythological examples from the Krishnavtar, Rudravtar, Dattatreya Avatar, Charitropakhyan, Brahmavtar, Chandi Charitra(I and II) etc. which combined form the major part of the Dasam. Authentic-looking compositionbs like Akal Ustat, Jaap Sahib, Zafarnama (without the p****graphic Hikayataan) dont form even 10% of the Dasam.
     
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  18. Ishna

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    Admin ji

    I think OSingh ji may have meant it to be read as "Gyani ji said the touchstone is Gurbani" (comma) and "OSingh ji is saying that by using it as touchstone Jaap passes the test".

    Not that Gyani ji said the entire sentence.

    OSingh ji please forgive me if I've misinterpreted.
     
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  19. OSingh

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    Sorry, I have been misundertood. My writing skills are not that good.

    Ishna ji is right.

    "First of all, Guru Ji is with us, and will remain always, in the form of Guru Granth Sahib. To negate this fact would be a more serious offence to Sikhi than even apostasy."

    Where I have I stated we should negate Gurbani? Who are you calling an apostate? Please be more clear, If you think i am an apostate please explain why.

    "Secondly, you are advocating the 'Rehatnamas' the authenticity of which is very much questionable in itself. The Rehatnamas even promote the caste system, Havan-yagyas, Sanatani rituals etc. will you accept even those then?"

    Please read my post Aristotle ji. Their is a saying in Panjabi that if insects get into a jug of milk, you do not throw away the whole jug of milk, you get rid of the insects. I have clearly stated, content in the rehitname that is in line with Gurbani we can accept and anything that goes against Gurbani we reject.

    Bhai Prahlad Singh ji's Rehitname has part our ardas preserved in wriiten form, this is very important. This proves that rehitname has content which is in line with Gurmat. This makes it an important historical document that we can reference.

    "Fourthly, Using the Jaap Sahib as a tool you cannot tell the Sikhs to worship the Dasam Granth."

    Nowhere have I stated that we should 'worship Dasam Granth'. Please do not make accusations like this. I am 100% against parkash of Dasam Granth parallell with sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

    For me bhai Nand Lal Singh ji is an excellent source as is bhai Prahlad Singh ji rehitname, which also contains part of our Ardas. This is important.

    SRM committee came to conclusion that sri Jaap Sahib and sri Choupai Sahib are authentic and mandatory for amrit sanchar and nitnem(sri Jaap Sahib). Anybody who goes against this and removes this bani from Amrit Sanchar is an apostate. One group has already conducted an amrit sanchar without sri Dasam Bani's, we as panth should be united against this.

    Nobody is denying that sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is our Guru as bhai Prahlad Singh ji's rehitnama states:

    ਸਭ ਸਿਖਨ ਕੋ ਬਚਨ ਹੈ, ਗੁਰੂ ਮਾਨੀਅਹੁ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ - The command for all the Sikhs is to accept the Granth Sahib as your Guru.

    Guru Granth Sahib ji is our Guru. However, Satguru ji decided to include his bani for amrit sanchar ceromony and nitnem bani. However, as I cannot summon Pita ji, Guru Gobind Singh from Sachkhand to give us the reason why they did this, we can utilize other manuscripts to help us come to conclusions.

    It is not a crime to utlilize other manucripts. So much great material is available in various janamsakhi's, rehitname etc. We must take what is Gurmat and discard the Manmat.

    Otherwise we would be discarded great sayings from our Guru, such as (bhai Nand Lal Singh ji's, TankahNama):

    ਦੋਹਰਾ
    ਰਾਜ ਕਰੇਗਹ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਆਕੀ ਰਹੇ ਨਾ ਕੋਇ
    The Khalsa will rule and the rebels will be eliminated,
    ਖ਼ਵਾਰ ਹੋਇ ਸਭ ਮਿਲੇਂਗੇ ਬਚੇ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਜੋ ਹੋਇ All will be obliged to join and only those who surrender will survive.

    and

    ਸਵਾ ਲਾਖ ਸੇ ਏੇਕ ਲੜਾਊੂਂ
    (I will) make the one combat a hundred and twenty-five thousand.

    All these great bachans of our Pita ji are preserved outside of Guru Granth Sahib. If I believe in these bachans, if i read the dohra, does that make me an apostate?

    Also Khalsa Rehit is not stated in Guru Granth Sahib.

    Rabb Rakhe
     
  20. OSingh

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    Ishna ji

    This is not Gurbani.
    The English translation is not very good. The above translation, especially the second line is way off. I hope sangat does not have any doubts regarding Dohra. One day Khalsa will have Raaj (kingdom) in this world, this is bachan from Guru Gobind Singh ji.
    The Dohra are actually words direct from Guru Gobind Singh ji, they have been preserved in bhai Prahlad Singh ji's rehitnama, bhai Nand Lal Singh ji's Tankhah Nama and by Giani Gian Singh's, Panth Parkash.
    The pavittar bachan to accept Guru Granth Sahib as our Guru is in the Dohra. If we question the Dohra then we are questioning the foundation of Sikhi - shabad Guru, sri Guru Granth Sahib being our Guru. I believe Guru Gobind Singh uttered the Dohra in their final days at Hazoor Sahib when passing Gurgaddi to Guru Granth Sahib ji. I believe it was the Namdhari's who first questioned the Dohra, for obvious reasons.
    Lets not get off topic, this thread is about authenticity sri Jaap Sahib and not Dohra (I am not aware of any doubts regarding Dohra, it is accepted and recited by Sikh Panth)..
    The point is that we have material outside of Gurbani that can be utilized and is utilized.


    Rabb Rakhe
     
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  21. aristotle

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    Sir,
    I didn't mean any offence by my post. The thing I wanted to highlight was that we don't have any credible reference to support the Jaap Sahib as an authentic Bani, let alone its being Guru's own composition. All we have are Rehatnamas or Bhai Nand Lal's Bani. I don't think we would be able to defend it when in discussion with a third party.
    Even the Lag-matras of Jaap Sahib are different in different Gutkas, the fact is even acknowledged by the SGPC. How can we authenticate a Bani sans a set original draft??
    There are many who try to advocate the Dasam Granth citing the Jaap Sahib and Chaupaee.
    And about the Chaupaee, there are many Chaupaees in the Dasam, are there any pre-SRM (I mean the time before the SRM was drafted) references for the Chaupaee to be recited as the Nitnem??
    Any references or leads could prove very useful in this regard.
     
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