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On God, Energy and Principle

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by mystique_void, May 11, 2009.

  1. mystique_void

    mystique_void
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    The God of Gurbani is kind, caring, loving, merciful,
    compassionate, forgiving, nurturing and benevolent.

    Can Energy or the Universal Principle be kind, caring,
    loving, merciful, compassionate, forgiving, nurturing
    and benevolent?

    Creation is not a random process. Creation demands
    intelligence and deliberation. For beautiful cars to
    come out of a manufacturing plant, we need a
    designer. The raw materials are not going to
    self-assemble themselves into a car on their own.

    Does Energy or the Universal Principle possess
    intelligence that is essential for creation?
     
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    mystique_void ji

    Such beautiful words of devotion for Waheguru. Reminds me of this on Ang 8 of Japj(u)ji


    ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥
    kar kar vaekhai nadhar nihaal ||
    Having
    created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.


    ਤਿਥੈ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡ ॥
    thithhai khandd manddal varabhandd ||
    There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.


    ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਥੈ ਤ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਅੰਤ ॥
    jae ko kathhai th anth n anth ||
    If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.


    ਤਿਥੈ ਲੋਅ ਲੋਅ ਆਕਾਰ ॥
    thithhai loa loa aakaar ||
    There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.


    ਜਿਵ ਜਿਵ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਵ ਕਾਰ ॥
    jiv jiv hukam thivai thiv kaar ||
    As He commands, so they exist.


    ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਕਰਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
    vaekhai vigasai kar veechaar ||
    He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.
     
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  4. Sinister

    Sinister
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    Many may argue that not all creation demands intelligence and deliberation, intricately pointing out charts and keen observations of natural events (events as small as mitosis or as trivial as the ‘creation’ of feces).

    The evolutionist’s have proof without certainty and the creationist’s certainty without proof. For the creationist every avenue of circumstance is the result of an unimaginable omnipotence actively providing agency through divine willpower. This philosophy does not actively encourage nor facilitate the attainment or betterment of knowledge. This philosophy becomes especially negative if it impedes; investigation, curiosity and imagination. Intuitively it seems that those who make the divine powerful are trying to escape the responsibility of self-observation and self-contemplation.

    Despite the fact that a large number of people are creationists, investigation of random events continues (anything from investigating weather patterns, economics, emergence of dominant viral strains etc). Deist thought exists even amongst the most devout, primarily because; every human is a rational human being (rationality being the agency that ensures survival, rationality being a prerequisite for survival).

    Bronislaw Malinowski while observing the tribes of Papua New Guinea found that the first recourse of a fisherman with a torn net is to reweave his net and then have himself blessed by a high priest, not the other way around. Simply put; the flight and fight response precedes our emotional/faith based spirit.




    ‘Creation’ is an ineffective word in metaphysics, because a thought of creation extrapolates to ad infinitum, the word is of little interest to a pragmatist or an ontological thinker. Likewise ‘Universal Principle’ would be a useless word to a relativist.

    “Do Energy or the Universal Principle possesses
    intelligence that is essential for creation?”


    what is intelligence?

    c h e e r s
     
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  5. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Sinister ji

    Based on some things you have said on another thread or two -- about your own view of Divine nature -- you have an interesting thesis working. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds. You definitely do not conflate science and religion. One thing that I find interesting in this regard. There is only one religion that I am aware of that considers the Divine to be a Universal Principle. It is the Christian Science Religion. Do not know too much about this faith, but I certainly wonder how the line between the metaphysical and the cosmological is drawn by them. Thank you for your thought provoking remarks.
     
  6. lalihayer

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    If we humans with our consciousness are just small part of whole energy, then is it possible that whole energy too have own consciousness?
    Is our consciousness just part of larger consciousness, like instincts are part of our consciousness (they come and vanish)?
    Does references in Gurbani about beating the death means expanding our consciousness to larger consciousness by breaking walls which hold us within confinement of this mortal body?

    These emotions are upper emotions on the rainbow of emotions starting with most selfish ones. Even the animals and most of the humans experience lower range of emotions like satisfying body needs and doing actions which are just for self ego.
    But when humans experience emotions which result in actions which are not for self (mercy, forgiveness, self sacrifice etc), it shows glimpse of existence of higher consciousness which we are part of and just can't experience with our own limitations.
     
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  7. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Lallihayer ji

    :wah::wah::wah::wah::wah:
     
  8. Sinister

    Sinister
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    what is energy? … to my understanding it is a human physical construct to explain and predict natural phenomena.

    Energetically humans and all living matter are agents that use energy to decrease entropy (while we are living we exhibit Disentrophic Behaviour). While non-living matter expends energy that increases entropy humans expend energy that decreases local entropy at the expense of increasing the entropy of our surroundings. So, in effect, the energy expended by humans and that expended by the non-living universe are used for two different purposes, provided the ‘whole’ is a closed system.

    Thus energy can only develop consciousness if it is used to decrease local entropy. Hence the existence of consciousness of something like the “whole energy” is unimaginable or at least irrational (as it would violate the laws of thermodynamics).

    :{;o: just a little thought experiment i wipped up. :}8-:
     
  9. lalihayer

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    Do lower planes of consciousness like animals ( and big number of humans ) know about higher planes of consciousness? Can they reason that there exist higher planes of consciousness?
    Are laws of thermodynamics are absolute and final? Do we know it all ? ( I know much less than sangat here)
    Are we on the top of pyramid ( with all other planes of consciousness below us)?
    Every century, year, month brings new discoveries, principles, laws. Are we certain we have gained absolute knowledge this moment? Nothing more follows?
     
  10. pk70

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    Sinister Ji
    Guru Fateh !
    Glad to see your post.
    You wrote
    “what is energy? … to my understanding it is a human physical construct to explain and predict natural phenomena.”

    Aren’t you limiting the meaning of energy?
    What about the energy “Air” possess?
    And “Lightening” Is it human physical construct?
    What about the energy in the gravity of the earth? You can say, it is just gravity but in its existence, energy/power exists too.
    I feel “energy” is a word to define power being displayed (or in existence to be displayed) by different visible or invisible sources.
    You wrote
    "This philosophy becomes especially negative if it impedes; investigation, curiosity and imagination. Intuitively it seems that those who make the divine powerful are trying to escape the responsibility of self-observation and self-contemplation. "

    It doesn’t impede at all any kind of investigation; it depends at who you are hinting at? Believers of the true powerful divine power must be open for new experiment, investigation etc. Given life itself is an inspiration for a fine mind to rise further above. Thanks.:)


    Regards
     
  11. lalihayer

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    Isn't that top of the pyramid? Nirgun!
     
  12. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    What are you talking about? Are you equating God with energy? What do you mean by energy?
    Your question is assumes that there is creation.

    Do beautiful cars reproduce? No, therefore they can't evolve.
    "Raw materials" CAN self assemble like so: YouTube - The Origin of Life - Abiogenesis
    and then they CAN diversify through evolution because they can REPRODUCE, unlike beautiful cars that cannot.
     
  13. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Mystic - void ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Do you mean by your above explanation that Sikhi is the same as Christianity in which they believe in a personified deity that has used intelligent design to create this universe, hence a dogmatic religion that believes in hell and heaven?

    Could you kindly elaborate and clarify your viewpoint?

    Thanks

    Tejwant Singh
     
  14. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Bhagat ji

    My impression is that Mystque_void is not equating God with energy. In fact he is questioning that equation. He is raising the question: How could it be possible for God to be energy? Why not pose your questiion in a different way?
     
  15. mystique_void

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    Sinister wrote:

    "Many may argue that not all creation demands intelligence and
    deliberation, intricately pointing out charts and keen observations
    of natural events (events as small as mitosis or as trivial as
    the ‘creation’ of feces)"


    That is a good point. There are great many physical,
    chemical and biological processes that appear absolutely
    random and they are able to create new shapes and
    forms and products.

    But if take a closer look, these seemingly random
    processes are governed by laws and principles. It's
    highly highly improbable, and in the minds of those
    who believe in God, impossible, that such precise
    laws and principles could be put into place without
    directions from a super-intelligent designer.

    About your question "What is intelligence?":
    This question is hotly debated in the field of
    Artificial Intelligence and there are many theories.
    Literally hundreds of books exist on the topic.
    Being a big proponent of the KISS concept
    (Keep It Simple Stupid), I'm going to be very brief.

    We have built computers that can beat the
    top chess players of the world. In the future
    we may have robotic baseball teams that are
    able to beat the top human baseball teams.
    These are good examples of artificial intelligence.
    However, neither computers nor robots have
    the free will.

    Let me give you an example of what free will is.
    When Guru Gobind Singh asked for the heads
    of Sikhs on the Vaisakhi of 1699, the five
    Sikhs exercised their free will after weighing the
    options (on one side was sure death and on
    the other was Guru's call) and offered their
    heads. The computers and robots are not able
    to make these kind of decisions by exercising
    free will.

    God not only has supreme intelligence and
    free will, he also enjoys absolute sovereignty.






















     
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  16. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Firstly, I think Sargun Nirgun best describe God as they allow for any possibility. Energy may not make sense to oyu but may make sense for someone else. Similarly, something you understand about God may not be understood by someone else. So to each his own God but understand that everyone looks at God differently.
    By "you" I mean anyone who is reading.

    Mystique Void ji,
    About your reply to sinister ji. Let me do my best to answer.
    OK
    Why would you explain how those laws got there by answering with something that is even more complex, God?

    How do you know this? I say the exact opposite. My claim would be just as valid as yours.

    Please reply to my previous post as well.
     
  17. spnadmin

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    Bhagat ji

    Your words as follows; Firstly, I think Sargun Nirgun best describe God as they allow for any possibility. Energy may not make sense to oyu but may make sense for someone else. Similarly, something you understand about God may not be understood by someone else. So to each his own God but understand that everyone looks at God differently. By "you" I mean anyone who is reading.

    I have no problem with the proposition that each person can define God as they will. However in discussing the nature of God as understood within the framework of the Sikh religion, any and all understandings and sentiments don't demonstrate intellectual or spiritual coherence. The discussion of the nature of God begins to resemble an afternoon talk-show -- light conversation and every one walks away feeling validated and therefore cozy within themselves. Everyone's answer is equally good and there are no wrong answers.

    The idea that some ideas are clearly off the mark requires a fair amount of disciplined argument and in the case of Sikhism a fair amount of adherence to Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

    Also please explain why the statement that Sargun Nirgun covers the possibility that God is Energy is sufficient. Most of the references I have checked limit the meaning of energy to its attributes and actions in the natural world. So Sargun Nirgun may cover that aspect we call Sargun, but certainly understanding God as energy underestimates the extent of His play as sargun and nirgun.
     
  18. mystique_void

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    Bhagat Singh wrote:

    "Energy may not make sense to oyu but may make sense for someone else.
    Similarly, something you understand about God may not be understood
    by someone else. So to each his own God but understand that everyone
    looks at God differently."


    It's not about what makes sense to you or me or what our individual
    understanding is. It's not an open-ended quest for God. We could
    do that if we were taking a course on the philosophy of religion at a
    post-secondary institution.

    On Sikh forums we talk about the concept of God in the context
    of Sikhi. We have a specific frame of reference in the form of
    the written word of the Gurus and the traditions they
    introduced.

    Let me pick out two typical sabads from Gurbani. There
    are numerous others like them.

    SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge

    SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge

    How are we going to apply the concept of Energy or the
    Universal Principle to these sabads? Does a car battery
    or a light bulb (energy) possess the attributes of God
    that are described in these sabads?

    We can't ignore or contradict large portions
    of Gurbani in order to feel good about what makes
    sense to us or what satisfies our personal
    understanding.


    Regards,
     
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  19. BhagatSingh

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    Antonia ji,
    Why do you think that Sargun-Nirgun has a place in Sikhism?
     
  20. BhagatSingh

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    Sargun-Nirgun is the context of Sikhi is it not? So to each his own. You forgot about that bit when you replied.

    Well for one, neither a car battery or a light bulb is energy. Two, it does not not but does that mean it violates or contradicts the Sikh view of God? I would say no.
     
  21. spnadmin

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    Bhagat ji

    Nirgun and Sargun have a place in most religions, Sikhism included. These ideas refer loosely to the notion of God's immanence and God's transcendence. They are fundamental to our desire to describe the nature of God. There are Sikhs who study Gurbani with the desire to understand God in nirgun and sargun states. There are Sikhs who think this is a boring pursuit. There are Sikhs who never think about it at all. In this regard, Sikhs are just like everybody else. :welcome:
     

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