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No Counting Allowed in Gurmatt

Discussion in 'Jap Ji Sahib' started by Gyani Jarnail Singh, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Counting of prayers..jaaps etc is not allowed in gurmatt..
    Hence no maalas, rosaries etc of any use...

    Read what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says on the subject of maals, rosaries etc etc...
     
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    #1 Gyani Jarnail Singh, Dec 15, 2012
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    I always found this from Kabir so uplifting (not the right word) just an upper for me. Because? This in a few short words removes all the mystique, holiness, sacredness, other-outward-centeredness, fixation on objects that are supposed to connect us. When what is really happening is we are deluding ourselves that repetition makes us devout. Rosary there is just one example standing for all the other examples that "practitioners" would have us bring into our lives.

    That is the liberation of Sikhi, of Guru Nanak.
     
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  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    At the Bottom is a short lyric in Urdu..that declares..

    I Broke my rosary...after some serious thought...WHY am I "lost in this counting ritual.." and just how many gifts shall I ask of HIM.....when the CREATOR is One who BESTOWS GIFTS without any COUNTING...endless..... gift after gift.... after gift.....after GIFT...
     
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  5. sandhu21

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    satshriakal to all

    verjee after reading your words .i was thinking what about people who cant read or cant See what they can do or somebody who can read but cant understand the meaning so i think maala is also practical.its all what i think and sorry if i offended anybody

    waheguru jee ka khalsa waheguru jee ke fatheyanimatedkhanda1
     
    #4 sandhu21, Dec 17, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2012
  6. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Veer Ji..

    What you seem to be saying is that...IF a "patient" cant see/read/or read and cnat understand...etc etc.....IF such a patient visits a DOCTOR and the doc gives him a few packets of pills..etc to take at certain times and cure his disease...BUT the "Patient" just takes OUT all the PILLS and counts them again and again for a certain number daily..and puts them abck in the packets....will that help him cure his sickness ??? After all he is counting all the pills many many times daily..maybe even hourly before meals and after meals as the doc ordered..???..and at his next visit he can proudly tell the doc..I COUNTED your pills SAVA LAKH Jaaps already...or Das Lakh times...why am I still sick ?? I think its your pILLS are no GOOD..next I ma going to the NAINA DEVI..I heard shes got power..or go viist that Famous PIR GRAVE in rajasthaan..and give away a green chadar..I heard HE gives any gift asked for...???THIS is whats happening in PUNJAB....You can go to nay PIR SAMADHEE..and see hundreds of "Amrtidharees and sikh looking persons matha teking..putting chdars..or go to Hardwaar and mandirs...sikh looking persons praying, having cocni=uts and tilaks etc...

    THERE IS NOT ONE TUK IN SGGS THAT RECOMMENDS MALA/COUNTING !!! BUT many that CONDEMN this RITUAL.

    Are we saying that GURU JI didnt know/care/ignored the unparrh..the illiterate..the deaf..the mutes..the blind etc...and thats why MALA is OK ?? The GURU is SAMPOORAN..complete..HE LOVES ALL and provides for all..blind deaf mute dumb illiterate and literate..read Asa Ki vaar..Parriah hoivehnGUNAHGAAR..OMI saadh na Mareeah..IF an ACADEMIC is at fault..NO way a Illiterate will be punished in his place !! ITS LOVE thats required...NOT RITUALS and show off counting matha tkeing etc. GURMATT is a PRACTICAL SYSTEM...the HANDS are required to DO HONEST LABOUR..HARD WORK..PERFORM TO EARN and SHARE...not be holding beads and mumbojumboing...No offense to any...


    Gurfateh.
     
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  7. sandhu21

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    satshriakal to all

    verrjee firstly maala ferne -i dont meant to counting or jaap its only to concentrate by saying waheguru waheguru.when you cant hold gutka sahib in your hands or you are not in home ,traveling in bus train or plane.secondly veerjee by reading gurbani i should also understand what is written or what i am reading ,if i dont understand it mean same as taking headache medicament for fever .i think veerjee its not the act what matters its the fath with what you are doing it.thirdly veerjee what is happning in punjab you can say derawad or drugs or cults coming every day .the root cause are we .people who are rich or capable of giving they dont give .i am not say its all people but sorry to say most of them.we meterlised everything. one small example shri guru gobind singh jee also wear kara but it was of loh kand (iron) and we make it of gold .fights for jateydharis ,its all about money veerjee .i am sorry to say but no body cares veerjee .jey likhan ch koi galti hoye tha chota veer smaj key maff karna
    on one place mother teresa says
    People are often unreasonable and self-centered. Forgive them anyway.
    If you are kind, people may accuse you of ulterior motives. Be kind anyway.
    If you are honest, people may cheat you. Be honest anyway.
    If you find happiness, people may be jealous. Be happy anyway.
    The good you do today may be forgotten tomorrow. Do good anyway.
    Give the world the best you have and it may never be enough. Give your best anyway.
    For you see, in the end, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.”
     
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  8. Luckysingh

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    When you ask people that use a rosary if they can do without, they will claim that they can't and that it becomes an essential helping tool to aid their concentration.
    I'm not really sure if it can be classed as being gurmat or not.
     
  9. BhagatSingh

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    Gladly!

    In one shabad Kabir ji describes how his mom reacted when he was young "No one has ever said "Ram" in this house! Ever since this son of mine has picked up a mala, there is no peace to be found!" -856

    So he used a mala, was enlightened.

    Several of Guru Nanak's relics has been preserved. Amongst them was His pothi/writings and His mala. So two of the most famous personalities use malas! and I'm pretty sure Nanak 4 and 5 also used malas.

    Guru Sahib describes the Lord as very beautiful, with beautiful long hair and eyes. Then goes onto say "O Sister-friends! chant this golden Krishan-mala" and "in doing so you will be transformed from a crane to a swan." He goes on to describe the Lord's charms when He walks and speaks. - 567
    Swan in ancient times and still is a title (like Bhagat, Sant, Guruetc) that was given to someone of high spiritual status, someone who was enlightened.

    And of course, it is made very clear that it is not the mala that is important it is the simran and the eradication of haumai.
    I think the use of malas was actually quite common. That why Kabir said "Wearing tilak and malas people have made Ram a play-thing." -1158
    Mind you Kabir says "I say my salute to those who wear a mala around their neck and have "Ram" on their tongue all the time" - 479

    Guru Sahib says "Those with malas if they cultivate anger inside them are completely fake. They will not find peace."- 832

    So mala inherently = 0 spiritual value. One is not better or worse without it.
    But when one uses a mala of simran then this mala is like Lucky Singh ji says, "essential helping tool to aid their concentration", an aid in their enlightenment. Then it's spiritual value and the value of the user is priceless!
     
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    #8 BhagatSingh, Dec 30, 2012
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  10. Luckysingh

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    Thanks for clarifying that. I was thinking in a similar way

    It becomes a little clear that Kabir ji himself started with a mala as a beginner.
    Then when he had become accustomed to keeping his focus on the Lord, he says on page 656, -''Here Lord, take back your mala' !!
     
  11. BhagatSingh

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    Lucky Singh ji,
    You have the right idea. These guys would just wear their malas around their neck, no need to pull it out anymore.

    But that shabad by Kabir is expressing a different sentiment i.e he is not saying I am enlightened now take your mala, just the opposite. He expresses his separation from God, "maya is pulling me in and can no longer do Your simran, take your mala back!"

    Haha thinking about it more, I realize we've all experienced this. Those of us who walk on the path of Bhagati. Sometimes things just aren't working out and we feel completely helpless at not being able to connect to God. We aren't able to do any of our daily rituals and just feel completely lost! It's painful! If we can somehow get through this phase then it's a happy ending because God does eventually take us back into His arms!
     
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    #10 BhagatSingh, Dec 30, 2012
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  12. Inderjeet Kaur

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    I have a mala that I have had for many years. I never used it for counting anything.

    I think I have the equivalent of "restless leg syndrome" in the hands. They insist on doing something and if I concentrate on holding them still, my concentration is not on Gurmantar or anything else except holding my hands still. The mala solves this problem for me.
     
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  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Ha ha Bhagat Ji...
    You took the SECOND LINE..and left the very FIRST ONE alone ?? KOREE GAGAR..a BRAND NEW UNGLAZED POT that has never been used...ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ॥ ਨਿਤ ਉਠਿ ਕੋਰੀ ਗਾਗਰਿ ਆਨੈ ਲੀਪਤ ਜੀਉ ਗਇਓ ॥ ਤਾਨਾ ਬਾਨਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਸੂਝੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸਿ ਲਪਟਿਓ Every day, he rises early, and brings a fresh clay pot; he passes his life embellishing and glazing it.
    The First line of Kabir Ji..."Daily he brings in a FRESH UNGLAZED POT...and embellishes it..spends his entire time polishing it ...

    Prof Sahib Singh Ji:posed a few questions.... Is Kabir Ji really THAT RICH..that he can afford to buy a FRESH NEW POT daily....and spend his entire day embellishing it..polishing it..ONLY to DISCARD IT the very next morning for a BRAND NEW ONE ??

    Even IF Kabir Ji had a secret entrance to Ali Baba's treasure Cave...and could afford to buy a brand new pot on a dialy basis..?? is that the action of a bhagat like Kabir Ji who is a weaver ??

    IF Kabir Ji is really THAT filthy RICH..what is his mother wailing about ?? Just how many pieces of cloth could he be weaving daily anyway ( apart form the"time" he has left over from embellishing and polishing his brand new Clay Pots...that is ??...does Kabir really need to sell the cloth ?? Is he using his cloth selling money to buy the new pots ??

    AND remember that Kabir Ji has DESCRIBED HIS "MALA" very very CLEARLY...its not made of beads,,stone..metal..cloth..whatever...Kabir Jis MAALA is HIS TONGUE !!ਕਬੀਰ ਮੇਰੀ ਸਿਮਰਨੀ ਰਸਨਾ ਉਪਰਿ ਰਾਮੁ....NOTHING could be clearer than THAT.

    And further the word "Mala" used by Kabir Jis MOTHER is in a DEROGATORY SENSE...she is NOT very pleased about it is she ?? She is NOT saying it PROUDLY..MY SON USES a MALA ????

    So ALL this Talk about Kora Gharra..Brand New Pot...embellishing polsihing it whole day.".maala" and all is an EXAGERATION by the MOTHER who is expressing her extreme displeasure at Kabir Jis SATSANGEEISM. Actually what is happening is that Kabir Ji rises EARLY at dawn..goes to the nearby water source..bathes..and brings HOME a POT full of water...the work of a hard working son...( whereas the lazy ones would be sleeping it off till noon)....doesnt sit well with the old lady who then EXAGERRATES...This is alos one of typical Bhagat kabir Ji banis..full of riddles and not so simple to brush off as a PRO MALA at all...Orniray Indians esp Punjabis also love to exagerrate....This absolute no good son of mine..he ahs destroyed the family..blah blah..that no good daughter..she ahs brought the fmaily anme to the dust..this man has ruined us all..blah blah...and this "exagerration" is seen in the Brand new pot/embellishing it whole LIFE !! Just HOW long can one embellish a pot ?? whole LIFE ?? The Mala word denotes "SATSANGEEISM" of kabir Ji which the MOTHER doesnt LIKE...nothing more or less...
     
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    #12 Gyani Jarnail Singh, Dec 30, 2012
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  14. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    SO IF..we SIKHS are to FOLLOW Kabir Ji and USE the MAALA..then why do we NOT buy a FRESH NEW POT daily and spend our LIVES embellishing/polishing them ?? Why do one..and not the other..after all the POT LINE comes FIRST. HA HA..soon each SIKH home will be chock full of brand new pots..where are we going to keep them Jios ??...thats is IF we Can FIND them...and afford to buy them ?? IMPOSSIBLE and UTTERLY WASTEFUL act...In Kabir jis time..and NOW ???
     
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  15. Kamala

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    Really? Whenever I see the Guru ji depicted they always have a mala, one around the neck, the other on the Paag.. also one in the hand.
     
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  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    REALLY ?? kamla Ji..i would love to be pointed towards the GURU that "PAINTED" those pictures....Poor me..all I have are the WORD PICTURES of GURBANI in SGGS....maybe someone out there has an ILLUSTRATED VERSION of the SGGS..???..with pictures , photos, sketches..of the 10 Gurus signed by their GURU painters..like Mahalla Panjvan painted this picture of Guru nanak Mahalla Pehla..etc...

    I have the Best Paint Programme on my computer. You are saying Mala on neck paggh and hands feet etc....I can even have the GURU inside the Maala beads..so how AUTHENTIC would that be ???.many pics coming on the Internet even have the SAI BABA in the foreground and Baba Nanak PEEPING form behind...wonders of IMAGINATION run wild..Jios..NOTHING at all...one even has a Michael jackson in the background and Guru Gobind Singh ji in the foreground.....Certian Mexican Sikhs ahve Virgin mary Jesus Christ and Gurus in the same picture..painting...is that PROOF that Guru Nanak ji was pally wally with Mary Mother of Jesus or the MOTHER GAI..Cow thats shown in RSS pictures of Gurus in India..WILD IMAGINATION versus SGGS authentic Gurbani...??? which would you choose to beleive ??icecreammundaicecreammundaicecreammundaicecreammundaicecreammunda btw..this is just a computer animation..smiley..NOT a REAL SIKH BOY eating ice cream..icecreammundaicecreammundaicecreammundaicecreammunda.
     
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  17. spnadmin

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    Kamala ji

    The pictures are artist's impressions of the gurus and not life-portraits. With some exceptions they were completed many years after the death of the gurus, and not even during the Guru period. There are also pictures where the mala is not in view.
     
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  18. BhagatSingh

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    Gyani ji,
    Please point out where you agree with me so that we can put that bit aside (and ground ourselves in that) and discuss the issue where we disagree.
     
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  19. Luckysingh

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    Gyanji and Bhagatji, I have a little comment on what I think !!
    What do you reckon ??

    I remember another shabad, I honestly cannot recall which- But it used the 'gaggar'or pot as a metaphor for the body and the water it contained represented the mind !!

    The above shabad in reference, may also be referring to the body and not literally a gaggar. We humans under the influence of ego, endearment, lust, anger..etc... act to serve our own bodies or gaggar. This is like the embellishing and decorating in the gaggar sense., because just the outer vessel is influenced and not the water inside.

    On the same page 856 and further down in the next shabad, Kabir ji mentions-


    ਅਮਰ ਜਾਨਿ ਸੰਚੀ ਇਹ ਕਾਇਆ ਇਹ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਕਾਚੀ ਗਗਰੀ

    Amar jān sancẖī ih kā▫i▫ā ih mithi▫ā kācẖī gagrī.

    Believing this body to be immortal, I pampered it, but it is a fragile and perishable vessel.



    Here we can clearly see that the vessel is the body/gaggar !



    With this in mind, the previous tuk is talking about- getting up early, bathing or washing and then coming out fresh with a new clean body/vessel...........
     
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  20. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Lucky Ji Bhagat Ji..

    Thats one of my points...that IF we take the "Clay pot" to be a metaphor..its OK..
    and when Kabir Ji says MY "Mala" is my TONGUE...then we say no no..we need those types that hang around the puggh...in the hand..or around the neck..

    We only need to accept the Entire Shaabd/Bani of Kabior Ji in TOTALITY and apply the same measurements everywhere...IN FACT ALL...and I do mean ALL (EVERY ANSWER) can be found INSIDE the SGGS...SGGS INTERNAL EVIDENCE...from other Banis at other places MUST be looked at....to arrive at conclusions...its when we jump at every chance to look at the Vedas, the Purans, the Koran for "Answers or meanings of SGGS..then we are on the wrong track...becasue the SGGS is the Complete Guru...the GURU has His OWN INTERPRETATIONS of each and every concept - even though the langauge/vocabualry he uses is the same for obvious reasons (masses already familiar with those vocab and concepts..BUT Guru ji gave them an all new outlook/meaning/interpretation..and the GURU most DELIBERATELY picked the Gurbanis of Bhagats that came long before him.and Basic in HINDUISM......including Sheikh farid who was almost more than a CENTURY earlier and Muslim in Basic Beleifs......BUT those chosen banis MET the Gurus CRITERIA in TOTO !! There s NO CONFLICT of any sort in the Gurbani of Gurus and Bhagats or Sheikh farid Ji...Thats my POINT.
     
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  21. Luckysingh

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    Thanks Gyanji for the input.

    I can see(thanks to the different inputs) and understand that the problem is the 'counting' and not the actual mala.

    Kabir ji points towards many of the brahmin rituals as like a person walking in the dark with a lamp, who still falls into a pit or well. Because what use is the lamp ??

    Carrying, wearing or counting on a mala is not going to increase your bhagti.

    Kabir ji was under the wing of brahmin pandit Ramanand for a number of years.
    On page 326, he realises that he wasted his life in kashi by following the prescribed worthless rituals like counting on the rosary for instance.

    ਸਗਲ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਿਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਗਵਾਇਆ

    Then on 656 - ਭੂਖੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ ਯਹ ਮਾਲਾ ਅਪਨੀ ਲੀਜੈ
    Bhookhe bhagti na keejai. Jah maalaa apanee leejai.

    Bhagti devotion can not be performed while hungry (maya's hunger) and here is your mala, take it back !!
    (I know that I looked at this shabad from a different angle in the previous post, but I can interpret it more clearly with the others)

    The person who counts beads of mala or who counts their jap for bhagti is full of 'hunger' for maya. - this is not gurmat, totally manmatt !!

    Looking at the shabad about kabir ji's mother again (856)

    ਜਬ ਕੀ ਮਾਲਾ ਲਈ ਨਿਪੂਤੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਭਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    Jabb kee maalaa laee nipoote tabb te sukhu n bhaio
    Ever since this worthless son has taken the Mala, there has been no Sukha (Joy, ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤੀ,Gain, etc.)!
    - This is telling us that those who take on the empty practice of counting are worthless and there can be no sukh.

    Gurbani instructs us to have the rosary enshrined within.
    There is no calculations or sums that determine when a person gets enlightened.
    Therefore counting is contrary to gurmat.
    If there is calculations or sums to determine your level of bhagti, then this is ALL false and part of Haumai and false-Ego.

    It becomes clear that Kabirji doesn't endorse the mala, even if he carried one.
    As he says ''The mala is on my neck and the lords name is on the tongue''
    Which indicates that confining the lords name as a number to a mala bead is NOT what he does, even if he has one on his neck.

    Therfore, counting your jap, or counting your paarts is NO way to move up the bhagti scale.
    And I can now clarify with understanding the wrong about counting that Gyanji stated in his OP.
    The only real use for a 'Mala' is that it helps some people to concentrate if they can be doing something with their hands, as I mentoned previously.
    It works like a tool to help focus your concentration and dhian on the One Lord when trying to meditate and contemplate.
    But if you start counting and using it like an abacus, then you are just improving your math and not your bhagti or spirituality !!

    My post may look like a bit of a U-turn, but I knew that you don't do empty practicing with the mala and thanks to Gyanjis posts, I can now see that you don't do any counting either (there is a difference! although it can be easily missed!)

    Agreeing, disagreeng, expressing and then realising is all about learning, and I always feel better when I have learnt !
     
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