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Nanak is The Guru, Nanak is The Lord Himself

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by Sikh80, Jan 7, 2008.

  1. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    gur kw sbdu n mytY koie ] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
    No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.
    gurunwnku nwnku hir soie ]4]7]9] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
    Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

    These are the Vaaks from Guru Arjan dev ji maharaj. I am not able to proceed further as the meaning assigned to the 'tuk' does not fit in well with the conceptual framework Of sikhi that I had the chance to build on this forum. Frankly speaking., I have not yet had one full reading of the Granth sahib ji whom I hold in high esteem.

    It was in a post of SPN that I was reading that unlike other religions sikhism does not preach that their Gurus are God. But here the things do not appear to me in sync. with the above.


    Is Guru Nanak dev ji stated to be Creator?
    or
    The translation is not correct
    or
    My appreciation Of the translation is faulty.

    I would also be grateful if someone can tell as to in which year the line was authored or it was during the compilation of the Granth sahib. Did the earlier 3 gurus not observe this.?

    kindly correct me.
     
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  3. simpy

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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    Dear Sikh80 Ji,


    Bani Sach Hai............ doesn't matter in which year the lines are composed.



    A TRUE SAINT: WHOSE SOUL IS MERGED WITH THE ALMIGHTY(GOD). SO IS THERE A DIFFERENCE??? NO. BUT A SAINT NEVER NEVER SING HIS/HER OWN PRAISES.....................


    NO TRUE SAINT calls himself/herself GOD.


    BUT A TRUE SAINT KNOWS ABOUT THE OTHER TRUE SAINT, SO ACKNOWLEDGING HIM .................


    Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaaj is telling about Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.


    OUR GURUS ARE SO HUMBLE Sikh80 Ji, THEY HAVE EVEN SUGGESTED THAT NO BODY SHOULD CALL THEM GOD. BUT ONCE ONE KNOWS THE TRUTH, ONCE HEAD BOWS WITH UTMOST RESPECT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.............. AND HEART AND MIND ABSORBS THE TRUTH- TU HI TU.............................

    Untill one has doubts about his/her Guru's ability, duality stays lingering in one form or the other..........


    SEVAK SIKH POOJAN SABH AAYE............................. read this shabad, in this Shabad Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Sahib is telling that one has to believe the word(order) of his/her Guru as TRUE.

    and treatment of doubt is also prescribed by Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib- naam simran/rab nu chete karo/remember Him and only Him.................................................................

    Waheguru Rakha
     
  4. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Re: Is it So??

    Thanks for your reply. However, it answers the question only in a round about manner. You have treated all the guru sahibaan as different. They are 'one jot' as they had the same spirit hence treating the gurus as separate entities/gurus in the present context may not be ok.

    Secondly, it is stated in Gurbani itself that the Creator Himself cannot take the route of Incarnation. I presume that the translation is incorrect. If we take the translation at face value the entire edifice of sikhi will have to undergo a change. Guru Nanak ji cannot be God/creator as he has stated many things in the eulogisation of the Almighty.One cannot go on praising oneself.It becomes superfluous and redundant and meaningless. Incidently it is in Gurbani that it is stated that the Creator creates Himself. If we take Guru Nanak as the Creator the above does not stand to truth as Guru nanak did not create HIMself.

    I think it would be better if some third person guides us. So far as I am concerned I take it as a case of wrong translation /interpretation.
    The following line from japu ji sahib shows that Guru nanak ji cannot be the creator.


    siq suhwxu sdw min cwau ] (4-16, jpu, mÚ 1)
    He is Beautiful, True and Eternally Joyful.
    and

    jw krqw isrTI kau swjy Awpy jwxY soeI ] (4-19, jpu, mÚ 1)
    The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.


    Let some senior member may help and guide us.
    I would reiterate that it is only a case of misinterpretation.
     
  5. simpy

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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    SARGUN AND NIRGUN-----------

    both are GOD nothing else.

    WE ARE ALL 'EK JOT' sikh80 ji.

    IT IS THE 'DOUBT' that you have in your mind that is bothering you, as i said before: untill there is doubt, dualty will be there in some form.

    humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness
     
  6. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    It is neither duality nor a worry,It is to get a confirmation that baba nanak ji was not creator HIMself. Kindly let someone else also opine and let it be a place where we can remove doubts and obtain clarification.Kindly do not block a discussion..
    Even in the following line there is a clue that Guru sahib were not the creator.
    ikv kir AwKw ikv swlwhI ikau vrnI ikv jwxw ] (4-19, jpu, mÚ 1)
    How can we speak of Him? How can we praise Him? How can we describe Him? How can we know Him?

    It would be very useful if someone else may take up the thread.
     
  7. simpy

    simpy
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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    Baba Nanak is not a creator when we are talking in terms of HUMAN BODY/HUMAN LIFE/NON SPRITUAL CONCEPTS.

    BUT DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU ARJAN DEV JI IS TALKING ABOUT A SAINT, A SAADH, A REALIZED SOUL not a mere human body.................

    i humbly tried to make you think about the truth, you don't want to contemplate on truth, very well.

    Waheguru Rakha
     
  8. simpy

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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//


    guru prmysru eyko jwxu ] (864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
    gur parmaysar ayko jaan.
    Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One.
    jo iqsu BwvY so prvwxu ]1] rhwau ] (864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
    jo tis bhaavai so parvaan. ||1|| rahaa-o.
    Whatever pleases Him is acceptable and approved. ||1||Pause||
     
  9. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    Respected Surinder ji,

    You are making statements so frequently and in contradiction that their reliability is lost.I understand your view point now.Let it be attended to by someone else as well . What is the relevance of the above post?.I do not know. Kindly let someone else take up.

    So far as I am concerned I am answered and believe that it is a case of mis-interpretation or wrong interpretation.


    Regards.
     
  10. simpy

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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    any body can understand the relevance:

    it states GURU AND GOD -same no difference.

    gur parmaysar ayko jaan.

    Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Panna # 864

    gur parmaysar paarbarahm gur dubdaa la-ay taraa-ay.
    Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Panna # 49


    humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness
     
  11. Archived_member2

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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

    Many Preachers are selling Guru Naanak Dev Jee as God. Your curiosity is highly appreciable. I would love to read posts from other experts too.

    From the day preachers fallen low at consciousness started misinterpreting Guru's Vaaks, The new generations of Sikhs got puzzled.
    The words Gur, Guru, Guroo, Guri, Satgur, Satguru, Satguroo, Satguri and in other forms have to say something special at their places.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੁ ॥
    गुरु परमेसरु एको जाणु ॥
    gur parmaysar ayko jaan. sggs ang 864
    Gur is surely not the paper Guru nor Gur is the body in that Gurdev lived once. Then what is this Gur, Surinder Jee.
    <<<<<<<<<<<< Edited >>>>>>>>>>>>

    Balbir Singh
     
    #10 Archived_member2, Jan 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2008
  12. simpy

    simpy
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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    Santokh Veer Ji,
    ya after deleting you are requesting me to repost it, you think i am keeping track........ he he........

    why did you delete in the first place, was it something inappropreate, please explain.......

    thanks
     
  13. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    Surinder Ji,

    You may re-post your message, thank you.
     
  14. simpy

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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    Santokh Veer, seriously, i dont remember what it was. it is ok now, it is gone, it is gone........... dont worry.

    let us be happy...........
     
  15. Archived_member2

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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

    This is an interesting point. Please ponder. How is this possible when Naanak is God Himself?

    jnu nwnku hir kw dwsu hY hir kI vifAweI ]
    jnu nwnku hir kw dwsu hY hir kI vifAweé ]
    "janu naanaku hari kaa daasu hai hari kee vadiaaee." SGGS Ang 166-6
    Jan Naanak is the servant of Hari, Hari's Praise.


    Balbir Singh
     
  16. Huck_Finn

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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    an~halak :)
     
  17. Archived_member2

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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all!

    This is another holy Vaak from Guru Raam Daas Jee. Please ponder. How is this possible when The Guru is God Himself?

    hir bwqw AwiK suxwey nwnku hir krqy eyvY BwvY ]
    hir bwqw AwiK suxwE nwnku hir krqy EvY BwvY ]
    hari baataa aakhi sunaae naanaku hari karte evai bhaavai. SGGS Ang 303-15
    Hari gossips speak reciting. Naanak Hari pleases doing so.


    Balbir Singh
     
  18. Sikh80

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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    ਕਾਦਰੁ ਕਿਨੇ ਨ ਲਖਿਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੀਆ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ।
    That creator could not be seen by anyone who to expand Himself created the infinite nature(prakrti).Lin3

    The above line is from Bhai Gurdas ji and states clearly that HE cannot be seen by anyone. It is clear that the Vaaran that were read by Maharaj Arjan dev ji had the implicit approval. Thus Guru nanaka dev ji could be the embodiment of the lord and not the Lord Himself.

    Further in Gurbani there is a clear cut statement to the effect that any one who states that the creator takes birth will have his tongue burnt.
    All this suggests that Guru ji were only embodiment of The lord and were not Lord themselves.
     
  19. Sikh80

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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//

    Awpxw Awpu aupwieEnu qdhu horu n koeI ] (509-2, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
    He created Himself - at that time, there was no other.
    mqw msUriq Awip kry jo kry su hoeI ] (509-2, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
    He consulted Himself for advice, and what He did came to pass.
    qdhu Awkwsu n pwqwlu hY nw qRY loeI ] (509-2, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
    At that time, there were no Akaashic Ethers, no nether regions, nor the three worlds.
    qdhu Awpy Awip inrMkwru hY nw Epiq hoeI ] (509-3, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
    At that time, only the Formless Lord Himself existed - there was no creation.
    ijau iqsu BwvY iqvY kry iqsu ibnu Avru n koeI ]1] (509-3, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
    As it pleased Him, so did He act; without Him, there was no other. ||1||

    The above lines also eulogise the All Mighty. It is very clearly stated that HE created HImself. Hence the question the Gurus were God is answered in negation. There is no scope Of any further argument./discussion.
     
  20. Sikh80

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    #19 Sikh80, Jan 8, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
  21. simpy

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    Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//



    Sikh 80 ji these lines tell me neech that THERE IS NO OTHER. SO NANAK AND GOD IS THE SAME ONE.............................

    JO JO DEESAY TERA ROOP....................
    How can we exclude Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Sache Paatshah.

    Bani Nirankaar Hai.............
    Te Guru Sahib Jina Bani Rachi???????????????

    Waheguru
     

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