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Naam Simran & Shabads

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by P_Sikh, Apr 29, 2007.

  1. P_Sikh

    P_Sikh
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    SSA,

    Can anybody please describe the difference between 'Naam Simran' and 'Shabads as written in Guru Granth Sahib' in context to achiving your final destination as preached by our Gurus? To me it seems 'Naam Simran - Meditating in the name of the true Lord' is the main thing and Shabads seem to remind us this time and again and answers our other spiritual questions human mind might ask. If that is case, if we understand this and do only 'Naam Simran' and meditate in the name of the True Lord in our daily routine should there still be a place of Shabads in our daily life? Doesn't that just repetition of same thing time and again and instead of Shabads what if we spend that time meditating in the name of the True Lord?

    I'm sorry if my question doesn't make any sense but i'm just bit confused? Please Forgive me if I'm wrong but I would appreciate the sincere reply to my query.


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  3. spnadmin

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    P. Sikh ji

    You will no doubt receive many responses to your question. I have listed two links below that should provide background.

    The short answer is: Naam Simran is a specific meditation, Meditation on God's Name. Shabds are the word of God as found in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib.

    The first link is a practical discussion of Naam Simram. By the way, Naam Simram is not as easy as the title makes it sound.

    SikhNet News Archive - Naam Simran Made Easy (By Dya Singh in Australia): article first published 04/23/2007

    The second link is to a very serious work by a Sikh Sant on Simran and Meditation.
    It is the Bandginama.

    htttp://www.amritbani.com/documents/Bandgi%20Nama.pdf

    Good luck
    Both are good reading, good resources.
     
  4. Khalsa1699

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    SSA,

    Thanks for the links. I already have Bangi Nama but haven't read it yet, will start soon, that is really serious work on Sahej Awastha / Sachkand. Some scholars consider it more of a thought process, how would it be in that state of mind?
     
  5. P_Sikh

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    SSA aad0002,

    Above reply was from me and not 'Khalsa1699', my cousin. I was using his computer and wasn't aware he left it already logged in the site. Thanks
     
  6. Archived_Member16

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    Discovery of Self through Naam-Simran


    Gulshan Jeet Singh*
    * 5-Rampur Mandi Road, Dehradun-248001. U.P.

    Naam Simran
    is a purely spiritual experience within reach of all humanity irrespective of race creed on social status. Success varies and depends on the practitioner’s earnestness as well as the Master’s grace.

    Why we must practice ‘Naam simran’? Because it brings inner tranquillity. This practice is superior to all other forms of worship. It is at the root of Gurbani. It places no restriction of time and space and does not need the help of any other person or material posture.Amongst all religious practices ‘Naam-simran’ is the simplest, a purifier for both mind and heart. It is like the all-pervasive light of the sun.

    Naam-simran’ reins in the mind and intellect (man aur budhi) from within, order to understand the physical phenomenal word and transcend its wisdom. Naam is the holiest of the holy; practice of simran destroys the cause of our bondage, namely, our Karma (good or bad actions). Even the greatest sinner attains to the supreme position through Naam-simran. The only focus that one discovers by study of Guru Granth Sahib is that we must always and constantly meditate on Him and His Name. Just as the furnace melts gold and other metals so as to purify them, so the Name of the Lord acts as the best solvent of all problems of this world. No evil can befall one who is engrossed in Naam.

    There are however some pitfalls. Sadly ‘Naam-simran’ has become a topic of discussion rather than of practice amongst our intellectuals. Argument is the antithesis of meditation. Efforts for conducting seminars on topic are merely intellectual exercises, missing the Naam - Amrit and initiation.

    Internalising the Divine Spirit: The word Naam’ is the object of simran (meditation) whereas the word Simran’ is remembering, uttering, or Jap in meditation. Thus ‘Naam-simran’ is remembrance of God’s Name. The question arises, what or whose name? The simple answer is Satnaam Waheguru the name of True Wonderful Lord, who is All-pervading True and Eternal. The Lord is One Alone, Who Ever was, Is Now and Ever shall be, - the Akal Purukh, ‘Waheguru’. His name is True. Guru Nanak and successor Gurus, throughout the holy Gurbani, maintain that one must contemplate upon formless God, Infinite God alone, Who is Creator, and dwells everywhere.

    "Life makes it opportune
    To seek the glorious Divine
    The Divine is within and not without
    Properly attune-or One’s out".
    Guru Nanak: Raag Prabhati
    "niralamb nirahar nehkewal nirbhav tadi lawai" (....resting mind on the Self, Detached, Hungerless and Fearless God). In an answer to the Siddhas, Guru Nanak replies thus: "antar bahar eko janai" - focus the mind upon One Lord (who is One within and outward)

    Fix thy mind on the Enternal Being, the True Purusha" sat-purkh akal murat ridai dharoh dhian".

    "Ved puran jas gun gavat tako naam hiai mai dharre".
    Guru Tegh Bahadar says, in Raga Gaudi. Enshrine yea His Name in thy heart Whose praise is sung by Vedas and Puranas".
    Guru Arjun : Sukhmani Raag Gaudi.

    "naam ke dhare sagle jant-naam ke dhare khand brahmand,
    Naam ke dhare sagal akar-naam ke dhare puria sabh bhavan."
    Thy Name (the All Pervading Divine Spirit) is support of all beings, O Lord.
    Thy Name is the support of the worlds, verify the Universe.
    Thy Name is Support of all life forms.
    Yea, Thy Name is the support of all continents and spheres.
    The Tenth Master, Guru Govind Singh, defined the objective as follow :
    "tahi ko dhian parman hie jou tha, ab hai ar agai u jaiv hai".

    A Slow Process : We must understand that if our meagre and early practice of ‘Naam-simran’ does not produce any earth-shaking result we should not lose patience. We should feel encouraged by the belief that the path has been found out, and it is only a question of time when we will reach our destination.

    There are some hymns which must necessarily be taken from the Guru Granth Sahib with the help of a pious friend, or elder or scholar - Granthi. The most popular technique is the repetition and daily reciting of Gurbani. ‘Sat Naam’ or ‘Waheguru’ is very powerful jaap; several practitioners reveal that without ‘Satnm, Waheguru’ the seeker cannot achieve his purpose. For the name and the object named are not different. When the heart is purified by the practice of Pranava, or Dhun/Naad, the practice hears same sound. In the first stage, one feels a thrilling sensation in the skin, gradually passes through several stages to reach last and final (tenth) stage; that through devotion to Waheguru, the Self is known, and the difficulties are removed.

    Realisation Within: By practicing Naam-simran’ the seeker of Truth, or Gursikh, comes to know the secret of Gurbani within himself, in second to fourth stage he perceives the finer spring of words, hear cosmic (Naad) sound, next he starts loosening of worldly sense and at last stage the knowledge of Divine Self comes in full effulgence.

    source: http://www.sikhreview.org/june2000/naamology.htm

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Spiritual Experience of Naam Simran

    Tarlochan Singh Mann*
    *3 New York Avenue, Stonybrook. N.Y. 11790. U.S.A. This is based on Bandgi-nama by Raghbir Singh Bir.

    Recitation of Gurbani and meditation or Simran are complementary to each other. While Gurbani brings us closer to an understanding of God’s purpose, Simran truly unites us with the divine. Recitation from Guru Granth and repetition of a particular verse roots its sense in our mind in order that the mind is moulded accordingly. Naam - Simran increases concentration and raises levels of consciousness to higher level and unites us with the wonderful Lord, Waheguru.

    Philosophy of Simran: As soon as the name of any object is mentioned, its form, nature, attributes, and our re-action to it, rush into our mind, and we visualize the image of the object as picturised and projected. Similarly when we repeat God’s Name our mental picture of God gets picturised before our mind’s eyes. Gur-Bani by projecting the attributes of God helps us to form some sort of mental picture of God. In Simran when we repeat God’s Name this picture grows clearer to us.

    Even if we may have no mental concept of God, by mere repetition of His NAME God’s attributes are not only visualized but are also slowly assimilated. Naam-Simran is the secret of simple mindsbecoming Saints.

    Peculiar quality of our mind is that if some thing impresses us profoundly and if we repeatedly aspire, by continuous Simran, to be shaped in the pattern of that thing (may be saint, God), we are gradually moulded accordingly:
    Jaisa sevai taisa hovei. (SGGS)

    Methodology of Simran: Significance and worth of Naam-Simran can be appreciated only by personally practicing Simran persistently, regularly, with patience and perseverance till it becomes a habit, and goes an unceasingly.

    Recommendations for beginners: Choice of a secluded and fixed place and regular hours help in inculcating Simran habit. A special room, or a niche in a room, reserved for Simran is very conducive. Time - prescribed is 2.00 A.M. to 4.00 A.M. in Summer and 3.00 to 5.00 A.M. in winter. We can sleep for two hours after Simran before our daily work.

    Body Pasture - We should squat cross-legged on the floor as erect as possible. The avoid fatigue a cushion may be used.

    Tuning the mind - It is necessary to guard it from wandering and falling into negative thinking and making the entire Naam-Simran exercise of the day a futile venture Modus-operandi for tuning the mind recommended by the author may be followed or each individual should evolve and adopt his own personalized technique.

    Three Stages of Simran: The author describes how and why he selected "Wahe-Guru" for Simran in preference to so many other names of God mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The first stage of Simran is audible Simran. Lips more and sound is heard. We speak aloud and fix our attention on the sound produced. It is necessary to improve our concentration. If necessary beads of rosary may be used, to start with, but in no case pictures of Gurus be used to improve concentration, as it creates problems in higher spiritual stages as illustrated by our own experiences. The second stage is of mental Simran. When lips cease to move, vocal chords alone help in creating sound rhythm of Wahe-Guru Shabad. For convenience the seeker may synchronize the Simran with the rhythm of breathing, regulating the vibrations of respiration. Uttering Wah on inhaling, and uttering "Guru" on exhaling. This mental Simran focuses our attention and increase our concentration which advances spiritual development. The third stage - The Gentle sound of mental Simran picks up a higher pitch and becomes louder and louder to the exclusion of all external sounds. Mental Simran ceases and this sound seems to come down from navel and is heard from within our entire being. This concentrated Simran raises the level of consciousness and the spiritual development advances to the higher stage. The mind feels perfect peace and gets inebriated with the joy of bliss that defy description. This advanced stage of spiritual development is called stage of ‘SAHAJ’. From this last stage of Simran first stage of "GYAN’ starts and the seeker starts having a number of mystic experiences. But the seeker has to guard against the delusions of this stage viz (1) Ceasing of Simran gives the impression that it is waste of time as there is no worship of God without Simran (2) The seeker is gripped by the sleep of ease called ‘TANDRA’ and seeker is deluded to believe that he has reached the final stage of spiritual progress. This writer follows in details the methodology suggested by Late Sant Attar Singh Mastuana and Baba Nand Singh Kleran helped him to come out of first delusion regarding waste of time. Edward Carpenter’s book ‘A Visit to a Gyani’ redeemed him from the delusion of ‘TANDRA’.

    The other mystic experiences this writer had are -

    l Discovery of centers of consciousness within the body including cortex of the brain called ‘DASAM DWAR’.
    l Seeing glimpses of sweet cool luminosity.
    l Hearing melodious sounds: punch nad or Anhad nad.
    l Experiencing sweet smells.
    l Low gentle rhythmic sound in the brain inducing bliss and lightness of mind.
    l Getting into peaceful trance/Samadhi.
    l The realization that the universe is the creation of an all-pervading force beyond our comprehension.

    Spiritual Experience of Naam Simran
     
  7. spnadmin

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    Dear P Singh ji and Soul Jyot ji

    This proves to be wonderful thread. P ji, you made me laugh about the computer. It happens to me every day. Keep on reading the good stuff, especially what Soul Jyot ji sent. That one I have to bookmark so I can go back to it. Soul ji, I hadn't read that post before and have added it to my collection. You always can find just the right thing at just the right time when someone needs to learn more. Thanks to both of you.
     
    #6 spnadmin, Apr 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2007
  8. simpy

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    Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,

    wonderful references....

    Respected Veer P Sikh Ji is asking: Naam Simran alone OR Naam Simran along with Shabad ?

    :) Vichaar on Shabad is necessary to get to the REAL PROGRESS AND PURAN anand IN NAAM SIMRAN :)
    HAVE TO BECOME A GURMUKH- otherwise no use........ All the doubts are removed through Shabad Vichaar (contemplating with self and with other Gurmukhs). It took many lifetimes to create this distance between the LowerSelf and the Higher Self, so it does take SOME Time to become ONE with our TrueSelf, that's why Repetition of Shabad is helpful. We tell ourselves again and again what Guru Ji is telling us through the Shabad, and the truth starts to penetrate within-deeper and deeper until it becomes unshakable Faith. Later it helps to maintain that Faith for ever(while living human life Maya is always sitting right there to pull us back...).

    Satgur Prasaad

    Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji De Bachan Panna # 58


    ibnu siqgur nwau n pweIAY ibnu nwvY ikAw suAwau ]
    bin sathigur naao n paaeeai bin naavai kiaa suaao
    Without the True Guru, the Name is not obtained. Without the Name, what is the use of it all?

    And

    sbid mrY so mir rhY iPir mrY n dUjI vwr ]
    subadh murai so mar rehai fir murai n dhoojee vaar
    One who dies in the Shabad is beyond death, and shall never die again.

    sbdY hI qy pweIAY hir nwmy lgY ipAwru ]
    subudhai hee thae paaeeai har naamae lugai piaar
    Through the Shabad, we find Him, and embrace love for the Name of the Lord.

    ibnu sbdY jgu BUlw iPrY mir jnmY vwro vwr ]7]
    bin subudhai jug bhoolaa firai mar junumai vaaro vaar
    Without the Shabad, the world is deceived; it dies and is reborn, over and over again. ||7||

    Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Das Ji De bachan Panna # 126


    myrw pRBu BrpUir rihAw sB QweI ]
    maeraa prubh bhurupoor rehiaa subh thaaee
    My God is pervading and permeating all places.

    gur prswdI Gr hI mih pweI ]
    gur purusaadhee ghur hee mehi paaee
    By Guru's Grace, I have found Him within the home of my own heart.

    sdw sryvI iek min iDAweI gurmuiK sic smwvixAw ]1]
    sudhaa suraevee eik man dhiaaee gurumukh sach sumaavaniaa
    I serve Him constantly, and I meditate on Him single-mindedly. As Gurmukh, I am absorbed in the True One. ||1||

    hau vwrI jIau vwrI jgjIvnu mMin vswvixAw ]
    ho vaaree jeeo vaaree jugujeevun munn vusaavaniaa
    I am a sacrifice, my soul is a sacrifice, to those who enshrine the Lord, the Life of the World, within their minds.

    hir jgjIvnu inrBau dwqw gurmiq shij smwvixAw ]1] rhwau ]
    har jugujeevun nirubho dhaathaa gurumath sehaj sumaavaniaa
    Through the Guru's Teachings, I merge with intuitive ease into the Lord, the Life of the World, the Fearless One, the Great Giver. ||1||Pause||

    Gr mih DrqI Daulu pwqwlw ]
    ghur mehi dhuruthee dhoul paathaalaa
    Within the home of the self is the earth, its support and the nether regions of the underworld.

    Gr hI mih pRIqmu sdw hY bwlw ]
    ghur hee mehi preethum sudhaa hai baalaa
    Within the home of the self is the Eternally Young Beloved.

    sdw Anµid rhY suKdwqw gurmiq shij smwvixAw ]2]
    sudhaa anundh rehai sukhudhaathaa gurumath sehaj sumaavaniaa
    The Giver of peace is eternally blissful. Through the Guru's Teachings, we are absorbed in intuitive peace. ||2||

    kwieAw AMdir haumY myrw ]
    kaaeiaa andhar houmai maeraa
    When the body is filled with ego and selfishness,

    jMmx mrxu n cUkY Pyrw ]
    junmun murun n chookai faeraa
    the cycle of birth and death does not end.

    gurmuiK hovY su haumY mwry sco scu iDAwvixAw ]3]
    gurumukh hovai s houmai maarae sucho such dhiaavaniaa
    One who becomes Gurmukh subdues egotism, and meditates on the Truest of the True. ||3||

    Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Das Ji De Bachan Panna # 363

    gur pUry qy pUrw pwey ]
    gur poorae thae pooraa paaeae
    Through the Perfect Guru, the Perfect Lord is obtained,

    ihrdY sbdu scu nwmu vswey ]
    hirudhai subudh such naam vusaaeae
    and the Shabad, the True Name, is enshrined in the mind.

    AMqru inrmlu AMimRq sir nwey ]
    anthur nirumul anmrith sar naaeae
    One who bathes in the Pool of Ambrosial Nectar becomes immaculately pure within.


    Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji De Bachan Panna # 1042

    kudriq dyiK rhy mnu mwinAw ]
    kudhurath dhaekh rehae mun maaniaa
    Seeing the Lord's creative power, my mind remains satisfied.

    gur sbdI sBu bRhmu pCwinAw ]
    gur subudhee subh brehum pushaaniaa
    Through the Guru's Shabad, I have realized that all is God.



    sbid mrhu iPir jIvhu sd hI qw iPir mrxu n hoeI ]
    AMimRqu nwmu sdw min mITw sbdy pwvY koeI ]


    forgive me please
     
  9. spnadmin

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    Khalsa ji, and Respected all

    Forgot to mention: When you read Bandginama, don't try to read it in one, two or three sittings. It is not a hard book. But there is a lot to think about and relate to your personal life. One chapter at a time is the best way, even going back to a chapter and reading it again. There are many saloks from raags and banis from Siri Guru Granth Sahib to illustrate points. A person has to connect the verses with what "Bir" is saying and to life in general. Don't "study" it like a homework assignment. Absorb it. Take it seriously. "Bir" wrote the book using examples from his own life. He takes you on his journey in order to share personal wisdom. So don't turn it into a federal project with a BIG HUGE OBJECT LESSON. Because reading Bandgi is very pleasant. You will get a understanding of how to weave Satgur and Siri Guru Granth Sahib into your life.

    I am making a master list of readings from Soul Jyot on this subject. At some point I will figure out how to post it. Maybe in this thread. A lot of good reading there too.
     
    #8 spnadmin, May 1, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2007
  10. ekmusafir_ajnabi

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    aad0002and All others,

    This is precisely the difficiency of this book, you need to weave yourself into Satgur and Siri Guru Granth Sahib and not the other way round. You need to weave into the Sat to become SAT and not to weave SAT into your WAY OF LIFE.

    The Author has Deviousily done what you are intending to follow. By following him you can become Ranbir Singh Bir and not God. Please think about it.

    I see it no different to what Gyani Jarnail Singh has done in the translation of "Sidh Ghost"
    or
    Gurpreet Singh Sumra, the author of

    Is there any Kaljug/Darage? Was there any Satjug?
    -Gurpreet Singh Sumra

    there any Kaljug/Darage? Was there any Satjug?
    Please do not manipulate Gurbani to justify your way of life or thinking. Manipulate yourself so that you may trodden on the way of our Gurus. Hunt wisely. Time is precious.

    This is my humble opinion. Please follow your own hearts.
     
  11. simpy

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    Make HIS WILL YOUR WILL, NOT YOUR WILL HIS WILL.

    all the books and references should only be used as a mean to spur up the thought process, but application of the information must always be done after very careful intellectual discrimination between TRUTH AND FALSE. And that's where Gurbani helps us always.................

    qIriQ nwvw jy iqsu Bwvw ivxu Bwxy ik nwie krI ]
    jyqI isriT aupweI vyKw ivxu krmw ik imlY leI ]
    miq ivic rqn jvwhr mwixk jy iek gur kI isK suxI ]
    gurw iek dyih buJweI ]
    sBnw jIAw kw ieku dwqw so mY ivsir n jweI ]



    forgive me please

    just want to add-
    even with Gurbani Translations, same thing. we use these available translations all the time(maily because a lot of readers cannot read and understand Gurmukhi and then you start getting a dher of PMs) but cannot depend on these translations solely, as these are mostly literal translations. Even these sites don't claim these translations to be 100% true and valid. And we cannot translate Gurbani into any other language to understand the CORE MEANING. It's just not possible, as a Language is not only a mean of communication but it also represent the culture and the values. OVER AND ABOVE THE POETIC FORM OF A LANGUAGE- TRANSLATING THAT -how much justice can we do to it!!!!

    humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness.
     
    #10 simpy, May 1, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2007
  12. spnadmin

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    Respected all,

    What I initially liked about this thread was its promise. A discussion would talke place. Different perspectives on a fundamental question would be shared. Individuals who were new to the forum would learn from those who are steeped in their knowledge of Sikh scripture and thought. Is the author of Bandginama, all that deficient? Or does he have a point of view that is really very like your own. Except that his path to the Guru is different. The same for Gyani Janail? If these individuals are wrong in point of view, how are they wrong? How far away from Naanak's fundamental message?

    Ekmuskafir ji, you are right. Time is precious. At 61, not likely to achieve you level of mastery in the years remaining to me, however many however few, I must learn all that I can. Not likely to master Gurmurkhi beyond the beginner's level, I want to learn from everyone.

    I am praying now that this thread will not become a battleground.

    Respectfully,
     
  13. ekmusafir_ajnabi

    ekmusafir_ajnabi
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    Dear aad0002,

    What I said should only serve as a warning because rather than saying we are following Gurbani on these lines, these individuals say “Look Gurbani is on the lines of our lifestyle.” They then use extracts from Gurbani and twist the meanings to prove that they “Look are right”.

    As an example, Gyani Jarnail Singh ji’s reply to the Four Yugas he makes a statement



    An established view by definition – “accepted as true, generally recognized as being true or valid”. Ok we concur. He then quotes a Shabad from SGGS



    Lets us see what these verses mean:

    So­ī can caeh sė ārė so­ī inī­ar apa rahai.
    The same moon rises, and the same stars; the same sun shines in the sky.
    ḏẖarī so pa­u julārė jug jī­a kėlė thāv kaisė. ||1||
    The earth is the same, and the same wind blows. The age in which we dwell affects living beings, but not these places. ||1||
    Now where does it say there is no Yug. But it clearly say “Jug Jia Khele” , The effect of the Yug is on the Jia (Mind, Living things) and indeed he has proven this point himself that it has already had an effect on him.

    He has mistranslatedYUG JEEA (Note the emphasis here – bold letters) kheleh thaav keseah” as The Yugas that have been lived, Where are they? Hence concluding that there are no Yugas.

    Jīvan alab nivār.
    Give up your attachment to life.
    Guru is telling us to detach ourselves from this body. This body is not your home.

    kbIr AYsw eyku AwDu jo jIvq imrqku hoie ]
    kubeer aisaa eaek aadh jo jeevuth miruthuk hoe
    Kabeer, rare is such a person, who remains dead while yet alive.

    So Kabeer ji is saying rare is such person who has reached this state of mind, Where everything around him is dead yet he is alive i.e. his presence is still being felt.

    inrBY hoie kY gun rvY jq pyKau qq soie ]5]
    nirubhai hoe kai gun ruvai juth paekho thuth soe
    Singing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, he is fearless. Wherever I look, the Lord is there. ||5||

    The game is all about taming the mind

    Hovai parvāā karahi ḏẖińāā kal laka vīcār. ||1|| rahā­o.
    Those who act like tyrants are accepted and approved - recognize that this is the sign of the Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||1||Pause||
    The trait of this Yuga is that those who exercise authority unjustly and oppressively gets recognition. You undoubtedly acknowledged Gyani ji’s comments
    Many thanks for taking the time to write in detail. Thanks also for the ang. I will read this. What Nanaak says does not surprise me, but it does require some concentrated thought. And, your conclusion, let's start reading SGGS and take it as a serious guide came through loud and clear.
    Why did this happen and it is nobody’s fault. The Word “Gyani” did the trick. Gyani cannot be wrong.



    Look at the language! Is that from someone with Gyaan?. Does he really understand SGGS himself? Our Gurus have written many many verses on Yugas. So is that all false? And that Gyani ji is right!. I will leave that for the individual to decide.


    “Sidh Gosht - Pauri 1 - Guru Granth Sahib
    Here again Gyani ji is taking his steam out. His main issue here is on the Meat eating practice and not the explanation on Sidh Ghost. He has tried to convince us here that Meat eating is acceptable. Why do we need to twist Bani to support our evil thoughts. The Sidhas are openly saying in the verses later on that they have for many yugas lived on a diet of fruit and veg etc. It is their “Reet”. Now Gyani is justifying his point by pointing out that Guru ji did not comment on this point and that they totally ignored it. Is that a conclusion that Guru ji has acknowledged Meat eating.




    Respected aad002 ji, Age is not a factor in spirituality. Please do not embarrass me, I do not have mastery on anything. I just have “Love” for my Gurus. I just read and read and read Gurbani in rememberance of my Gurus and I put down what I have been able to understand. There is no secret about it but the secret does lie in Kabeer ji’s Shalok


    Kabeer, rare is such a person, who remains dead while yet alive. [1364]
    and also on the same theme
    slok mÚ 5 ]
    sulok mu 5
    Shalok, Dakhanay Fifth Mehl:

    pihlw mrxu kbUil jIvx kI Cif Aws ]
    pehilaa murun kubool jeevun kee shadd aas
    First, accept death, and give up any hope of life.

    hohu sBnw kI ryxukw qau Awau hmwrY pwis ]1]
    hohu subhunaa kee raenukaa tho aao humaarai paas
    Become the dust of the feet of all, and then, you may come to me. ||1||


    The day you accept the notion of death, that is the day you plan your journey. The day you become a master of your senses is the day your journey begins.

    You hear only that, that is necessary,
    You talk only that, that is necessary,
    You smell only that, that is necessary,
    You see only that, that is necessary
    You eat only that, that is necessary for survival – (Is there any room here to go and kill animals to eat)

    Bani, Naam Simran, Shabad Guru – They all assist you in your journey. They are a continuous reminder to us. Kirtan instils “Prem” in us just as when you read a loving letter from your partner who is miles away from you. Naam Simran is like when you meet your partner after a very very long time.

    The day this happens is the day you are with the Gurus. The “Love Affair” begins with the Lord.

    For God’s sake do not build a cage of “Inferiority complex” around you.

    I humbly apologise to all if I have hurt anyone’s feelings. My apologies to you too, Gyani ji. What can I say it is GHOR Kalyug.

    Do not accept what I say. Go away and find out if I have not said something I should have as well as what I have said wrong. I will appreciate that.

    A note for the younger generation, please listen to Surinder Kaur Cheema ji, If you rely on translations of others, your are bound to be mislead. Gurbani is not a literal translation. It is in a poetic form. These are Guru ji’s Emotions. Get closer to Gurus to feel their Emotions. Fall in love to understand the depth of Emotions. Learn your language. Read literature and even decent novels. It is for you guys to preserve your heritage.

    Finally, accept death first before you take “Amrit”. It only then you get a new lease of life (like the Panj Pyares). Without that it is just Sweet Nector.

    The above are my humble opinions, please form your own.

    We are all students.
     
  14. hps

    hps
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    Hi..friends.
    Gurbani is as simple as it is authored and compiled.We make it complicated ourselves.if we devote sometime, we are likely to understand most of it.there will always be some doubts about the meanings of some verses.There may also be some difficulty in integrating the contents with the contexts.well ,it shall remain as it ios comp[pilation.Same words have been used to employ different meanings at different places in Gurbani.
    I also carried the notion that we are to understand the entire gurubani before we practice and integrate the concepts.I have stopped doing that and do my job with whatever little knowledge I possess.I think no one can dispell the doubts of another person. We shall do better by interpreting things in our own ways.It is like fighting your own battles. No one is better for one thinks that one understands better than another.It is not so_One can never be perfect.
    It is only the meditation that can help us and can bring nearer to HIm.It is the essence of the entire Gurbani.We have to make efforts to purge and purify ourselves to attain HIs blessings.That seems to be the entire purpose of Gurbani.Remember HIm and do your job as is prescribed.It is not very useful to stick to the meaning of someone else.It is second hand knowledge.
    Atleast I have stopped taking advice of others in the matter of SGGS.
    Yu will also do justice to yourself by doing the same.Does it matter if we do not and cannot make out some parts of Gurbani.I think it does not matter at all.Just meditate on His Naam.You may call HIm by any name.
    Regards to all.
    Bhul Chuk Maaf.
    hps
     
  15. P_Sikh

    P_Sikh
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    SSA,

    First of all thanks to Soul Jyot Ji for nice piece of information.

    Also, aad002 ji for your comments on Bangi Nama yes i agree with you that this book is not to be read like a novel/assignment and not to be read in a go, there is many personal experiences which need to be felt before understanding and that's the reason i didn't start this book even though i downloaded it last month.

    I also agree with 'aad0002' that path might be slightly different in reaching our True God (Though i havn't read Bangi Nama yet so i'm talking in general) but that MUST BE APPRECIATED as long as that is pure and is not away from FUNDAMENTAL MESSAGE from our Gurus. Many people (and even few western scholars) think Sikhism preached by Guru Gobind Singh Ji was different than Guru Nanak Dev Ji BUT THAT ISN'T THE CASE.

    Following is the text from the book 'History of the Sikhs - I - Khuswant Singh'

    "In its essential beliefs Guru Gobind Singh introduced no change. His Sikhism was that of Guru Nanak, believing in the One supreme Creator who was without form or substance and beyond human comprhension (Jap Sahib). He condemned the worship of idols (Jap Sahib). HE simply gave the institution of Guruship a permanent and abiding character by vesting it in the immortality of the Granth and in the continuity of the Khalsa Panth. Like Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind Singh believed that the sovereign remedy for for the ills of mankind was nam - a life of prayer. He did not alter the form of prayers - the Adi Granth remained the scripture; his own works never accorded the same sanctity. He disaaproved of asceticism (Sabad Hazare) and ridiculed the caste system. His motto was: 'manas ki jat sab ek hi pahcanbo' - know all mankind as one caste. Like Guru Nanak, he believed that the end of life's jurney was the merging of the individual in God (Akal Ustat). The only change Guru Gobind singh brought was to expose the other side of the medal. Where as Guru Nanak had propagated goodness, Guru Gobind Singh condemned evil. One preached the love of one's neighbour, the other the punishment of transgressors. Guru Nanak's God loved hs saints; Guru Gobind's God destroyed his enemies. The results were visible within a few months of the famous bapitismal ceremony when a sect of pacifists was suddenly transformed into a militant brotherhood of crusaders. The hills around Anandpur began to echo to the beating of wardrums and military commands."
    So what would we say that Guru Gobind Singh Ji introduced changes in Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Sikhism, the answer is BIG NO because Khalsa by Gurtu Gobind Singh Ji obeys the VERY FUNDAMENTAL MESSAGE preached by Guru Nank Dev ji though the way Sikhs evolved during that time seem to be different.

    I also agree with Surinder Kaur Cheems Ji that we can't rely 100% on translation.

    But I started this thread to discuss a very important question which most of the people might ask to themselves so please lets stick to the topic.
     
  16. Archived_Member16

    Archived_Member16
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    SOURCE: http://www.info-sikh.com/PageNaam1.html

    A Guide to Naam - Simran


    Simran is the ladder leading to God. It is heard to climb heavenward without Naam. Some masters conceive simran to be the essence of worship. By the study of spiritual books, by hearing the words of pure souls, we are prompted to be at one with God. Through Simran we begin to walk on the path leading to God. Studying the Guide To London, wakes the desire to visit London, but to do so we must leave our home and undertake a voyage. Simran is the souls voyage to the heavens. The divine knowledge that we acquire through Simran, becomes part and parcel of our being. Without Simran, knowledge sharpens our mind and worsens our previous state. There is a world of difference between a hair-splitting philosopher, and those who, through Simran, acquire divine knowledge. The teachings of good souls and the words of Mahapursh in books cannot by themsleves create faith. He alone can have the fortitude to be sawn in half who has firm faith in union with God after death. He alone can mock death, who is at one with the source of life.

    1 Simran washes and purifies the mind and helps it to concentrate. The wondering mind is feeble, the concentrated mind is strong and capable of deep thought. Only Simran provides the most convenient and effective means for concentration.

    2 In the concentrated state of mind, Simran creates a yearning to realise God. Simran, unlike other methods, helps us to be at one with our original self, which automatically results in the dislike for wordly pleasures.

    3 It creates a wondrous ecstasy in the soul, and the greater the ecstasy, the greater the aversion to sensual pleasures.

    4 The concentrated mind tries to know and realise the soul and the Infinate Soul.

    5 Simran saves the mind from wavering. It stabilises its concentration and does not permit its derailment.

    6 Simran tends to keep God’s attributes constantly before us and thus these permeate our being.

    7 Simran lightens and calms the mind

    8 Simran exterminates the illusion of egoism and selfness.

    9 It makes the mind at one with God.

    10 Only Sikhism truly shows the full glory and relevance of Naam Simran as revealed by Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

    Gurbani comprises the daily recitation of the prescribed portions of our daily prayers, repetition of a particular verse or verses, and participation in sangat kirtan singing. The average mind wonders and is full of dreams and fantasies. Gurbani transforms and purifies the ideas, and helps us understand the teachings of the Gurus. Thereby, we are led to remember God. Thus when we concentrate on Gurbani our baser thoughts are purified and we are then blessed with heavenly sights, which produce an ecstatic feeling.

    To recite the prescribed daily prayers, to resort to a Gurdwara to listen to kirtan, or God’s praises is what devout Sikhs do. But earnest spiritual seekers must practise Naam also. The sacred Word gives us a glimpse of the kingdom of God, of Sachkhand. But though the Sacred Word gives us a vision of the peace and beauty of that realm of the spirit, it is Naam alone that can groom us to take our place in it. Those who seek to dwell in God’s realm, must seek refuge in Naam. To travel over land we require a car or train, but for an aerial journey we need an aircraft. Similarly, in life, we need the assistance of Gurbani and if we wish to soar to the realm of the spirit, we need naam. In its contact with the world, the soul cannot remain unsullied, unless it is inspired by gurbani. But if the soul wishes to fly Godward, it requires the wings of Naam. Initially one must create love for gurbani and step by step, one should start practising Naam alongside it.

    In the initial stages we should recite aloud gurbani or else the mind will not be able to concentrate upon it. And as the mind becomes anchored we can read gurbani in an undertone, till eventually we can recite it mentally. This method is suggested by many mahapursh who hold the view that progress in stages helps ultimately to read gurbani in silence, which paves the way for the practise of Naam.

    The prescribed daily routine of gurbani recitation should of course be gone through, but devotees should also try to progress with Guru Granth Sahib Ji with intelligent care. We cannot grasp the core of Guru Ji without two or three carefull readings from end to end. In Guru Granth Sahib Ji there is light for every spiritual stage, and if we only try, we can find usefull paths suited to our individual needs. If we study Guru Ji thus, we are guided by them at each step, as a living teacher guides our footsteps. At first one is astonished at the close inter-connection between the soul and Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which seem to answer your problems as they arise.

    If we go repeating a verse, its sense becomes rooted in our mind, the mind is moulded accordingly, and when it is thus moulded, it is bound to assume the corresponding form is due course.

    Many intelligent people labour under a delusion about Naam. They do not understand the scientific truth underlying it, and in a way they are justified in their scepticism, for it is impossible to realise the potency of Naam without actually practising it. How can we know the taste of something that we have never tasted? The best way to thoroughly understand the philosophy of Naam............................. is to practise it.

    Another problem about Naam is that the initial stages are so difficult and puzzling that few people take to it, but we must bear in mind that diamonds are found in hard rocks, and pearls in the mouths of oysters.

    As soon as the name of any object is mentioned, its form, attributes, nature and our reaction to it rush into our minds. Name a friend and you have before your minds eye his form, nature and all the memories associated with him Similarly, if we repeat God’s Name, His attributes, as conceived by us, can be visualised. Through the study of gurbani and by listening to the discourses of holy men, we form some sort of mental picture of God. As we repeat God’s Name, this picture grows clearer to us. Even if we have no mental concept of God, by repetition of His Name, His attributes are realised, and so we go on doing so, His attributes are slowly assimilated by us. It is a peculiar quality of our mind that if something impresses us profoundly, and if we aspire to be shaped in the same pattern, we are gradually moulded accordingly.

    Guru Ji says “You are moulded in the form of what you adore”

    The edifice of Naam has been raised on this natural trait of the mind. In the hottest weather, if we visualise snow capped mountains and we concentrate on this mental vision – cold blasts or air, people shivering – we shall in time begin to fell cold ourselves, or at any rate the intensity of the heat will diminish. Through repetition of God’s Name, we begin to be moulded in His pattern and we begin to assimilate His virtues.

    Naam is essential if the mind is to remain in repose. Naan is a sort of train, aeroplane or ladder leading to God. It is the key that unlocks the gate to Heaven. Adoration begins with Naam and Naam leads to perfection. Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses the word Naam many times. Naam has been used for simran and also for the spiritual stages resulting from it. There, Naam signifies the realisation of the end as also the means adopted. Just as when we see a magnificent palace, we might remark “How great is the power of money,” similarly, the blissful condition produced by Naam is also called Naam.

    Naam can be practised at any time and anywhere, but, in the initial stages it would be prudent to practise in a secluded place with a peaceful and tranquil mind. Beautiful surroundings – a river bank, the foot of a hill, a garden – are conductive to turning thoughts towards God. If such natural surroundings are not available we might resort to a special room reserved for simran. After some time we will associate the room with reverence and devotion. It is a place of pilgrimage where one can wash away the dirt of the mind and imbibe a fresh spiritual impulse. Incense, flowers and perfumes induce a spiritual urge and aura. When we have made sufficient progress in the realm of Simran, it is immaterial where we turn to God.

    Amritwella period of the early morning is believed to be the best time for Naam. During these hours there is perfect silence and calm in nature and the attuned mind is in raptures in His unity effortlessly and without disturbance. This period is also called the Brahm hour or heavenly time. When we have sufficiently advanced in simran, we become accustomed to it at all hours and no rigid schedule is necessary. In the last stage, simran is life and life is simran. A break in simran, as Guru Gobind Singh Ji has said is tantamount to the agony of dwelling near the hole of a cobra.

    In the initial stages we would do well to practise Naam seated. In seclusion one should squat cross legged on the floor in an erect position even if it is slightly inconvenient at first. To avoid fatigue a cushion may be used to sit upon. When practising simran we must observe the golden rule of alert concentration on God. When the spiritual seeker has mastered the preliminary steps he will find that when his mind descends from a higher spiritual plane and he is again conscious of the world around and of his physical frame, he will find it easier to control his body and mind if he is sitting upright.

    When beginning the practise of simran, we should do well to think of Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s ideal personality.

    In the initial stage of simran we should practise by uttering the Divine Name aloud. If this fails to result in mental concentration we might resort to the beads of the rosary. Subdued utterance of the Divine Name and listening to its sound helps us concentrate. At first the mind does wander and concentration is difficult to attain. In this tug-of-war, irrelevant thoughts are bound to occur but one need not despair, as Guru Arjun Dev Ji says “There is no escape except through Simran.” We may select any of God’s names according to our creed or faith because all names are sacred. Personally I would use the word “Waheguru” for simran and recommend it to all Sikhs. All other names, Ram, Raheem, Allay, Madho symbolise a particular attribute of God and when a spiritual seeker grows conscious both of the immanence and glory of God he would not like to call God by a name that is indicative of only one attribute. It would be like referring to the ocean as a cup or bowl, it would diminish the area of one who is meditating on the All-Pervasive.

    The great poet/author of Suraj Parkash Bhai Santokh Singh and many other writers expound the meaning of the word “Waheguru.” Bhai Gurdas Ji says that Guru Nanak Dev Ji originally recited the word of “Waheguru”.

    Waheguru sach manater sunia….. 1st Var of Bhai Gurdas Ji.
    Waheguru gur mantar hai jap hauimai koi …. 13th Var.

    In the preliminary stages many seekers of the truth, while resorting to the simran of “Waheguru” fix their mind on Guru Nanak Dev Ji or Guru Gobind Singh Ji but they have to face a great difficulty in the final stages. One may have a picture of Guru Nanak Dev Ji before your eyes while doing simran, at first this device proves useful in promoting concentration. As one progresses one may visualise the picture scintillating with sparks of light as if Guru Ji were present in the flesh, and your joy knows no bounds. Whenever you choose you get a glimpse of Guru Ji.


    When the state develops further it becomes hard to contemplate God in His transcendence, while our union with Him is the climax of spiritual growth. When one now tries to concentrate on the formless one, there rises before you a picture of Guru Ji, and it is only with great effort, greater then the effort to bring a picture of the Guru in the mind, to break this habit. It is therefore essential to reflect on the Formless God from the very outset, else difficulties arise. The concentration and meditation should therefore be only on the Guru’s shahad and the seeker should dwell on His Name by process of meditation.


    Second Stage.

    Repetition on the Name at times leads to automatic mental simran: the lips cease to move and yet mental simran progresses. This induces mental peace and joy. As we grow spiritually mental simran will always progress unceasingly. The physical aspect of simran ends and mental repetition continues day by day. The external attractions and distractions begin to drop while mental harmony with Him begins. All the powers of the mind, which were diffused in external objects begin to be concentrated through sweet soft mental sinran. The seeker perceives a flood of mental peace through his whole body; the mind is at rest, the lips are motionless and yet mental simran continues.
    Those who are regular in the recitation of gurbani especially as a mental process taste this joy now and then. But it is far more useful and methodical to get to the stage of mental simran through the repetition of Naam. Some seekers deeply preplexed in this stage – they could recite gurbani mentally, but when they begin Naam-simran they can only continue for a short period. At this stage if we accustom ourselves to the practise of Simran with our every breath it brings much joy. As we intake we mentally utter “Wah” and when we exhale we utter “Guru.” The lips do not move, this is mental simran and we practise Naam with our every breath, this is the second stage.

    The Third Stage.

    Mental Simran promotes concentration and the gentle sound the mental Simran creates within our being becomes more audable. The sounds of the external world are drowned in the sound of Simran within. We hear nothing but the music of Simran within. The music is pitched at such a high key that even when travelling on a train moving at high speed, for the person practising mental Simran the rattle of the wheels is inaudible.

    The spiritual stage gradually continues to such an extent that we consider even the recitation of mental Simran as superfluous. Then the physical process of Simran ceases, but the mind is now in union with God. Now, both the physical and mental state of Simran ceases and the mind is perfectly at rest. This is called SAHEJ stage, whose peace and bliss defy description.


    The true joy of Naam is experienced at this stage. The mind is in a state of inebriation and is full of unfathomable bliss, and the joys of the world stand no comparison to it and pale into insignificance. Sant Attar Singh Ji once said “This spiritual stage is superior to the previous stages and the very object of Simran is to attain this state of peace. Let the mind remain in the state of Sahej as long as it will stay there. When it descends take to Simran, and through simran it could regain the same ideal state of Sehaj. In the course of time, the mind will ever abide in the state of ceaseless mental peace and bliss.”


    The seeker labours under another illusion. In this spiritual state he fall into a state of “Sukh Nindra” or Sleep of Ease, which the yogis call the sleep of Tandra. In this stage we live as in a sweet dreamless sleep when all thought is absent. But the devotee must beware of this sleep and remain poised in the state of Sahej. This sleep of Ease blocks the way to further spiritual progress, and labouring under a delusion, we fancy that this is the culminating stage of spiritual advancement.



    In this state of Sahej the seeker perceives within himself many centres where consciousness could rest in a state of concentration and when him mind is diverted to such centres he feels unfathomable joy. As compared with this supreme bliss the pleasures of the world are nothing. The love and union of a man and woman is supposed to be delightful, but, the seeker finds in Sahej that indescribable unfathomable bliss of exhilaration and invigorating buoyancy that defies description.


    There are six centres in the body where consciousness is concentrated; a little below the navel, the heart, the neck, midway between the nose and eyes and the cortex of the brain. When consciousness is concentrated in the cortex of the brain, bliss is unbounded and mind feels the intoxication of joy. The Gurus call this Dasam Duar, or the tenth gate. Impatience to reach this marvellous centre is not desirable. Only the ideal seeker can aspire to reach this centre. When one reaches this centre one derives infinite delight and are averse to returning to our normal waking condition. We enter into a Samadhi or trance like state and some pure souls can shed their mortal frame while in this stage. Those who attain this stage are not much interested in worldly affairs. Descending from this stage one feels like a stranger and perceives that humanity in general is on the wrong track. Some say that householders should not indulge too much in the excess of smadhi for it tends to create too much detachment from worldly affairs and one feels disinclined to throw one’s whole heart into normal matters.
     
  17. Sahota

    Sahota
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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
    Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

    P Sikh Ji,

    Khushwant Singh will keep you confused forever.

    And by reading the whole thread, it seems like your question has been answered sevral times before-seems like you tend to ignore it.

    Naam Simran and Shabad both are needed. Surinder ji even posted a lot of gurbani in reference to Shabad Beechaar. This is the only right answer any gurmukh will give you, you can ask as many as you want. All others(manmukhs) will keep you in gadhee ger.

    I guess you are looking for something that you like. EASY WAY OUT may be :) .

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
    Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
     
  18. P_Sikh

    P_Sikh
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    SSA Sahota Ji,

    Thanks for popping in.

    1. First of all, Khuswant Singh has authority over Sikh History. His study is based on original arviches availble and not based on listening stories and then changing to suit as and when needed. And the words i took didn't tell anything contradictory to what we all know.
    What knowledge DO you have of your history and where did you gain it from, lstening grand mother tales or while informal chats with your friends?. Nobody has done so much detailed study beore Khuswant Singh. Sunday Mail commented on his work as 'Singh has done a good job of turning dry history into infomed reading'. So instead of appreciating his work he has done for the community you saying he is confusing. so think before what you saying and for whom and in which context.

    2. Secondly, if you have read the thread properly which you claiming then why didn't you notice that i took note of the material. So what made you think i ignored it? And what made you think i'm looking for EASY WAY OUT. IF that was the case i wouldn't spend my time writing here and reading the material i had been posted by different people.

    So Don't just answer the post just in the sake of saying something and proving your existance. We know You do exist so please don't guess if you have nothing to say.
     
  19. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected P Sikh Ji,

    let us please not challenge others existence- we all exist as brothers and sisters on this forum, may our views differ....

    me neech was thinking somewhat the same way though, after i read Respected Khushwant Singh Ji's mention in your post. Are we talking about Simran and Shabad or History by Khuwant Singh Ji??? One will certainly be confused if tries to get Spiritual Aspirations out of the works of a historian, a journalist, or a fiction writer, especially Khushwant Singh Ji. As a Historian Khushwant Singh Ji is looking at the events of History as a Sansari heavily influenced by Maya, has no touch of Spiritual Essence at all. Not denouncing him, just stating my views on him.

    He did a lot of work, old history- yes he painted it in his own words, new history what he lived through- honest work, his own thoughts and with a lot of pictures. i like the pictures in his famous book-'THE SIKHS', very colorful and distinct.......


    forgive me please
     
  20. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Bhai Joginder Singh on Youtube has a number of short speeches which I found to be super interesting. naam, shabad, bani, anhad, etc. Very good.
     

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