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Discussion in 'History of Sikhism' started by amit gurbani, Jun 7, 2012.

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  1. amit gurbani

    amit gurbani
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    It might be true that the Guru Granth Sahib might be the only Guru, but what use is it, if we know all the verses by heart and can repeat/memorize them without actually practicing what is preached? While the Granth Shaib might be in its purest form and has not been altered, it is the living Guru that can help us achieve the goal of moksha and guide us through step by step just like how a mother guides her child through the initial stages of walking. A child simply cannot read a book about walking and start walking on his own can he? The Guru Granth Shaib is filled with beautiful teachings that are hard for human beings to follow and practice unless one is a renunciant/sadhu. Unless we know how to apply in the right way what the Guru Granth Sahib is teaching to us, in this age of Kalyug(a), when we are not living in the age of Lord Ram and Krishna(Satyug), it is extremely difficult to attain liberation from samsara just by following a text. Not only do we need theoretical knowledge, but we need practical knowledge, and it is a living master/guru who is able to provide that to us and we should be thankful for that blessing. Simply put it, YOU CAN definitely follow the path of the Guru Granth Sahib and attain your goal, but it is definitely harder and requires an immense amount of penance and self-discipline to achieve, and this could very well take many births and rebirths. The presence of the living master/guru with the gift of Naam and the sound current, makes this process much more bearable and attainable in this lifetime alone. Both paths are possible. You choose if you want to tread the arduous journey back home to the Lord, or chose the path with Grace of the Lord.

    Religion, or for that matter faith, has got nothing to do with anybody else other than one’s personal relationship with the divine, and nobody has the right to intrude in this unique and initimate bond between the disciple/seeker/son and the Master/Guru/God. It is a matter of personal choice and one should live and let live. One’s past karmic account determines the soul’s connection to a certain faith/religion/sect in this birth and each one of us has our own karmic accounts to clear and pay off – so let us not judge as to which religion/faith/path/sect is more right or superior than another and let us just focus on humanity, love and morality – simply being human.
     
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  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I absolutely agree with you on this


    Uhm ok not so sure about this, the whole point, the whole essence of Sikhism is that it is not a religion that promotes renunciation or asceticism, I personally think the entire Bani can be observed whilst married and in a job/business. The idea is that you take the Bani and implement in your relationships and the way you deal with others around you. Sikhism is not about not having fun! You can have goals, relationships, even a Bentley provided you obtain them and run them in line with Bani.

    People talk alot about this being the age of Kalyug, I am not convinced, 3-400 years ago, it would be a common sight to see soldiers walking down the street with Sikh heads on spears, there was the constant fear of war, not in some far off place, but right here outside your house, life expectancy was short, women were repressed, what exactly is Kalyug about today more so than in the past, I think we have it pretty easy myself. My own interpretation of Bani is that there is no samsara, as when we die, we die, dust, nothing.

    There is no one living who is able to provide us with anymore than the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It was not written to be complicated, it is quite straightforward, and it was written so that it could be read and understood one to one. A Sikh has no need for a living guide or master, the only master is Creator, the only guide is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    Penance? self discipline? I dont think so, you make it sound like a diet! I think it just requires love and respect for yourself, Creator and Creation. Sikhism is not meant to turn us into robots with no ability to think for ourselves, or follow rules, it is about love and understanding, you understand why one should do or not do certain things, it is not a fear and reward based religion, there are no prizes, no punishments, a good Sikh understands.



    All religions are essentially the same, most preach similar values, a Sikh should be able to respect and honour Creator in many different forms, be it Ram, Allah, without having to worry to much about associated concepts and rituals, I am with you on your last statement, let us indeed focus on just humanity, love, morality, and making the best of this, one and only life, that has been gifted to us, not as a test, or a punishment, but as the one chance we have got to truly understand
     
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  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    why do i feel the underlying "message" being pushed....( reading between the lines ) is the "need" for a dehdharee guru..a liiving Master who can lead..explain..the "texts"..read them and teach you .."how to walk"...

    THIS is the classical "advert" of those who advocate the need of..say..the radhasoami guru...the Namdharee satguru..the Sirsa Saadh..the Dhadreewallah entertainer...to.."interpret the sggs gurbani..teach you..how to walk..run..etc etc...and that the SGGS.."BY ITSELF" is just a BOOK !!..a child cannot walk just by reading a book on walking...indeed ?? so how can a Person become a "Gurmukh" just by reading/memorising SGGS..indeed !!..until a "living breathing Master" like the one at Beas..catches hold of your little finger and takes little steps with you....?????..

    The GURUS...the BHAGATS..of SGGS.. did WALK THIS EARTH...they took those STEPS...and they have left us STEP BY STEP CLEAR DIRECTIONS on How to WALK in THEIR FOOTSTEPS....and that step by step recipe for a GURMUKH LIFE is the SGGS..the Collective TREASURE of our Forefathers..the Gurus, the Bhagts, the Sheikhs...who experienced LIFE as GURMUKHS..and now teach us how to do exactly THAT.

    IF Sikhs following those step by step directions..managed to sit on Hot Plates and experience the GURMUKHTA taught by Guru Arjun ji.....in the Hundreds of THOUSANDS...in various parts of the world......I cant find a SINGLE Beas "Living master" who has done that..or a single beas follower who experienced that...So essentially these "living masters" are simply PIRATES/COPY CATS who steal ideas form SGGS..and market those as their own....a GURMUKH needs ONLY the "book"..to learn how to WALK SUCCESSFULLY.
     
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  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Millions of "RECIPE books..recipes abound on the Internet..and many millions bake excellent cakes by simply following (reading) those recipes...millions follow E-Books on the internet and become trained Engineers, educators, linguists etc etc etc...the SGGS is many hundred years treasure chest of gurmukhta experience...its not difficult to follow its teachings..USE IT AS A TOOL to shape our Life...

    Agreed that simply memorizing a recipe will NOT result in a cake...BUT Following the recipe and Baking a cake DAILY will make one a baker par excellence !! PRACTICE makes PERFECT..thats why GURBANI is for PRACTICING DAILY to make our Life par excellence..what we call GURMUKHTA.

    And a point of note...the so called "living masters" also NEED BOOKS...and these are mostly written by OTHERS...the SIKH GURUS wrote THEIR OWN.animatedkhanda1
     
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  6. SaintSoldier1699

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    The business trend is to "outsource" which can be applied to what's happened in Sikhism, this is defined as;

    "Obtain (goods or a service) from an outside supplier, esp. in place of an internal source"

    We have the internal source Guru Granth Sahib which we don't have the effort to digest as its "hard" mainly due to us being too busy to learn Gurmukhi, research the concepts and metaphors that used to be simple to us even though we have ample information all available on the internet to do this! Thus, Sikhs look for these outsource providers who have all self certified themselves to be quality outsourcer's ie. Sant, BrahmGiani, 1008, 101 etc.
    The only due diligence done on these certified outsourcer's is how many people they have spoken to who have heard tall stories of them providing "sukh" in the form of money, son's, winning court cases.

    The most important part is the known disadvantage for outsourcing is losing the internal knowledge as you no longer have any responsibility or wish to do the "manual labour" which you have outsourced!

    Thus, the result is people become like sheep and cant see the wood for the trees and plainly follow orders given by their chosen Shepherd who's is the so called true one unlike the other fake's lol!
     
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  7. Ishna

    Ishna
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    The "book" and Guru ji's Kirpa.

    You can read the "book" cover to cover hundreds of times, but without grace the "penny won't drop" and you won't understand it in your soul. This can't be taught by any scripture - it can only be known with the grace of the Guru within.

    IMHO.
     
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  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    very true sis, or worse, without grace you end up thinking you understand, not realising you are only getting further away
     
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  9. arshi

    arshi United Kingdom
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    Giani ji I had the same feeling myself when reading the post. I intended to respond in detail but both you and Harry ji have said most of what I wanted to say.

    Amit ji:

    The following comments are assuming your leaning is towards dehdharees - if not I apologise, but these may help others.. All dehdharee gurus having nothing to offer at all – all they do is, take, take and take. Similarly most babas are in it for themselves. There may have been exceptions in the past but I do not know of a currently living one who has the credentials of a Brahmgiani. If there is one, well let me know. Yes, true, there are some respected Sikh Scholars, Bhai Sahibs and Sikh Sewadars but they do not pretend to be anything other than their titles would suggest – i.e. scholars and sewadars.


    One does not need a guide to interpret and understand the basic teachings of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. For a dedicated follower there are a number of sources for clarification and guidance. In the current day and age the technology has rendered this much easier. Translations in Punjabi and English are readily available on the internet.

    True some aspects of Gurbani need more guidance than others. But if we start with the basics the more difficult concepts, too, will unfold in time. There are learned Gianis and Granthis who may be approached to explain a difficult pankti or concept. But in time, as our own spiritual status rises, Guru Ji will himself l hold our hand and guide us step by step – step by step.....

    Amit ji have faith in yourself. It is all within you. You do not require an agent. Liaise directly (save the commission) with Guru Granth Sahib Ji, if you are into Sikhi (I am not sure as your leaning is undisclosed).

    Best wishes and good luck in your pursuit of Truth and Truthful Living.

    Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
     
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  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    A STRIKING "PARALLEL" TO THIS is found in the Field of education..esp in 3rd world countries which practice ROTE EDUCATION,...The Offical School system FAILS to achieve its Goal of EDUCATION..hence giving birth to TUITION CENTERS...

    The Mindless pursuit of "TUITION"....everyone sends their children to the SCHOOL...BUT they have no "faith" in the school or its teachers...so they look for "TUITION TEACHERS"...many of whom are the very same school teachers they dont trust ( in the "school" but at home they are trusted )...and even some who are themselves failures/school dropouts/rejects/who masquerade as TUITION MASTERS !!
    Even the poorest of the poor send their children for "TUITION"..When i talked to many such parents...esp when the so called tuition teacher is just a higher secondary student/college student etc or a school dropout..they say..OH never mind..at least the children can finish their HOMEWORK given by the Official School...

    THERE is NO SUCH thing in WESTERN EDUCATION SYSTEMS..where students are not taught to parrot/memorize dates and data etc and just REGURGITATE it to earn good marks....There students are taught to PRACTISE what they LEARN daily via assignments, projects etc...no marks for memorising data !!

    The SANT Babas/deras etc are the "TUITION CENTERS" of Religion....they THRIVE because of the Failure of the OFFICIAL religion centers to TEACH EFFECTIVELY...our GURDWARAS DONT "TEACH" GURMUKHTAA...and thus people flock to the Fake "tuition" deras taught by fakes/ failures/dropouts/ looking for a successful "religious education" and end up being looted. IF we take the Bull by the Horns..occupy our Gurdawras and turn them back into effective RELIGION SCHOOLS, where the fee is your HEAD...then the deras of fakes will die a natural death..because a person has only ONE HEAD...its either for the GURU or NOT...and believe me..MOST people DO REALLY WANT to give their head to the TRUE GURU...but have no idea HOW or WHERE !!...and the Gurdwara is the last place "they" (SGPC/Managemnt Comittee etc ) want your head..they want your MONEY ONLY !!...put it in the GOLUCK and DEPART.
     
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  11. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    I think the point is too many people Carry Bani on their heads, memorise it, worship it and other things, rather than understand and practice it!!!! :)
     
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