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MUKTI- Different types and what Gurbani says.

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Luckysingh, Nov 3, 2012.

  1. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Mukti or liberation is freedom from all attachments that are part of the world illusion. Hence, this is why so many have associated it with or after death. However these concepts are not in line with jeevan mukti, which is being liberated whilst alive.


    Many scriptures at the times of the gurus mentioned 4 different types or more of Mukti.

    Page 1105

    ਚਾਰਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਚਾਰੈ ਸਿਧਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਕੈ ਦੂਲਹ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਸਰਨਿ ਪਰਿਓ ॥:
    chaar mukati chaarai sidh mil kai doolah prabh kee saran pario:
    By surrendering to the Lord, one obtains the four kinds of liberations and the four Sidhis.



    According to the Mahankosh of Bhai Kahan Singh, the "four" liberations are: (1) Saalokiya, (2) Sameepiya, (3) Saroopiya, and (4) Saayujiya.

    This four-part classification of liberation indicates states or stages of the mind — liberation of the mind from bonds of the senses. In other words, these are the stages of Formlessness, absorption (in the Pritam's Love) or perfect spiritual efforts (the Gurmukh lifestyle). Literal meanings of these four terms are briefly summarized below.

    (1) Saalokiya: living in the realm of the Supreme.OR where one gains a place in the realms of their guru or attainment of the salok given by the guru.
    (2) Sameepiya: To be near the Supreme.-This leads not only to divine virtues but a God like form (isher/sargun)
    (3) Saroopiya: To look alike the Supreme -In which the devotee obtains heaven and same bodily qualities as sargun Lord (avtar, isher or their deity roop)
    (4) Saayujiya: Merging, blending, linking or becoming one with the Supreme.- Here there is unity between the devotee and the One through immersion but devotee does NOT lose their own identity, so they are aware who they are and were and what they have attained even though they are merged.

    These above FOUR are NOT what the Gurmat applications apply to, but they are assumed to be the four in mentioned shabad.
    These ancient scriptures also mention a FIFTH but extinct state called
    KAIVALYA Mukti.
    A gurmukh sikh's goal is not the above four sargun types but the 5th nirgun type called Kaivalya.
    This is COMPLETE IMMERSION WITH WAHEGURU and THUS LOSING YOURSELF AND YOUR IDENTITY IN THE IMMERSION.

    In my opinion, gurbani goes on further from these scriptures to overide all these muktis and defines ''JEEVAN MUKTI'
    -This is being liberated whilst alive and present in this life.

    As gurmukhs then, is this the only option that we should aim for ?
    OR can we opt for Kaivalya mukti attianed on or after death ?

    If so, how can we tell when we are living jeevan mukt ?
    Don't you want to know what mukti really is, even if you may believe that it's not in your reach in this lifetime ?
    There are also many of us manmukhs that simply believe that we may only be Gurmukh once we have attained 'jeevan mukti' - Is this a correct belief ?

    NOTE- ALL of the above is information that I have put together gathered from many different sources, so there may be every possibility that a certain description may be wrong or not agreed by others.
     
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  3. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Lucky Singh ji,
    Their only distinction is that one is part of the other. Jeevan mukti is part of mukti, and the term is applicable for someone who will be mukt once they die but no more effort is required on their part. They are well on their way.

    Now I am not sure why you say they are "not in line with jeevan mukti". What does that mean?
     
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  4. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Sorry, I realize that statement can come across as misleading.
    What I should have said was that the 4 mentioned are not what Gurmat mukti as per gurbani is about.
    The four can be regarded as stages to some extent, but their definitions are not complete to our gurmat or jeevan mukti.

    It is a tricky subject, which is why I wanted to see some different views.
     
  5. Hardip Singh

    Hardip Singh India
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    "Jeevan Mukati" can be during one's life time only. It can be achieved by Naam Simran and adopting / adhereing to Sikhi;s way of life and thus getting librated from the various avgunns (sins) Like Kaam, Krodh, Lobh , Mohh and Ahankaar.
     
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  6. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    These ancient scriptures also mention a FIFTH but extinct state called
    KAIVALYA Mukti.
    A gurmukh sikh's goal is not the above four sargun types but the 5th nirgun type called Kaivalya.
    This is COMPLETE IMMERSION WITH WAHEGURU and THUS LOSING YOURSELF AND YOUR IDENTITY IN THE IMMERSION.

    Lucky Singh ji,
    What is being stated as extinct State I think that is the most active and real state one can think of.
    Gurmat is all about this state only and this is the state Guru Nanak and other Guru attained while living in this world only.
    This has to be attained in living state only that is why probably this is being refered as state of JEEWAN MUKATi.
    Thus Naamu Simran 24x7 is a direct road for this state to be attained.

    Prakash.S.Bagga

     
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  7. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    I agree with exactly what you say Prakashji.
    When I first came across the four as mentioned, I knew that they were not according to the gurmat principles.
    After some further digging, I came acrosss this fifth mentioned state that was in line with gurmat principles.

    The Kaivalya makes much more sense to us and this in line with jeevan mukti state gives better explanations to gurbani.
     
  8. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    Thanks Luky Singh Ji,
    One can also see how a state which people of the times dumped as exinct because they thought impossible, could be attained as per Gurmati way of living with Naamu.
    Such is the uniqueness of Gurbanee.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
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  9. KulbirSinghCanada

    KulbirSinghCanada
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    I think the 4th mukhti is what Gurmat tells us. If we loose identity then how can we experience God? Our identity must remain?
     
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  10. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    Real Mukati is the liberation from the cycles of Births.
    With remaining of identity this is not possible.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
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  11. Embers

    Embers
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    I agree with you Kulbir Ji
    The immersion doesn't mean loss, it is a completeness which was felt before to be an incompleteness.

    It is a return home.

    Luckysingh Ji, interesting thread, thank you!
    Here are some thoughts in reply.

    A stream runs in only one direction, the destination is determined. So we aim to arrive by not being caught up on the 5: 1. Kam (Lust) 2. Krodh (Rage) 3. Lobh (Greed) 4. Moh (Attachment) 5. Ahankar (Ego).

    We know intuitively when we arrive, that is the only measure one can make. The Gurbani is in tune to it.

    I believe the state of Gurmukh comes earlier but is still present with Jeevan Mukti.

    Death of the body is key. Because death of the body is not Jeevan Mukti (as Jeevan means a living being). We can reach a state of Mukti whilst embodied. However we are not ultimately free due to the body and so on. But the Jeevan Mukti knows it is the end of the stream.
     
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  12. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    OK, but this will mean that who you are wether you are a doctor, accountant, engineer, your family status, children...ie.. All the fators that make you the labelled person in society REMAINS!!
    Maybe there is nothing to wrong with that since the ancient vedic scripts believed that mukti will only be attained once you are way up the karma and caste ladder. So, they believed that when you become high caste and have a high status in society then this will stay with you once you are liberated. Maybe this seemed attractive to them, but sikh gurmat is not that way inclined as you are aware.

    Letting go, is the secret of mukti in sikhism. We are too attached and lost to the illusion around us.
    Also, as Prakashji stated it is also the 'freedom' from the coming and going of cycles of birth, therefore this birth only gives you the identity you know of but you may have had many differing identities previously.

    It is important to realise that Guru's were not believers of the ancient scripts, therfore they needed to give us newer and more applicable definitions hence why the 4th one would not be accepted. It can be based as one of the stages by all means, but it is not the 'be all and end'.

    Another way of looking at it is that of the nirgun/sargun manner.
    The 4th method is still very 'form' based ie sargun and the gurmat manner is more nirgun. ie. formless application.

    If you are still not sure, I'm sure other members and myself can try a little harder to clarify it. - Just let us know, that's why we are all here.
     
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  13. Archived_member14

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    [quote\] OK, but this will mean that who you are wether you are a doctor, accountant, engineer, your family status, children...ie.. All the fators that make you the labelled person in society REMAINS!!
    Maybe there is nothing to wrong with that since the ancient vedic scripts believed that mukti will only be attained once you are way up the karma and caste ladder. So, they believed that when you become high caste and have a high status in society then this will stay with you once you are liberated. Maybe this seemed attractive to them, but sikh gurmat is not that way inclined as you are aware.[/quote]


    I doubt that such ideas are expressed in the Vedas, it is way too foolish. I suspect that it is more the opponent's own interpretation made in order to highlight and give credibility to his own views.
     
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  14. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    This may well be by all means.
    But the objective is to focus on what we do know as mukti according to gurbani.
    My concerns are some of the questions such as
    -How do you know if another mahapursh, sant or bhai saab has attained mukti ?
    - One is not supposed to disappear into the wilderness to enhance in spirituality but is to live and earn in society as a householder. Then how exactly can one attain mukti whilst fulfilling all these roles.
    I mean how can a businessman or some other strong pillar of society be able to detach and not let worldly factors affect them and attain mukti ?
    It's not that straight cut is it ?
     
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  15. Hardip Singh

    Hardip Singh India
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    Lucky jee,
    Whether or not one has attained such Jeevan mukt staze or not can be realized by going thro one's way of life, his behavious to others, his compessions for some one else, his service to humanity irrespective of any religion or casts or natioanlity. If some one's eyes have started seeing and serving on the principal of "Sub Govind hai Sub Govind hai, Govind bin nahi koe" than one has attained that staze. Jeeev mukt is not just one's own jeeven multi but for his deeds towards others too.
     
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  16. bairaagi

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    This is very honest and philosophical question. Sometimes similar questions come to my mind . Few are here , please forgive me if they sound funny :

    If we say that soul is nothing but just divided part of God . And Divided soul is separated and blinded by illusion called by Maya. Why would god pay this game to itself ? I mean why would God play hide and seek from itself :confused:

    We also say that before start of time,space and cosmic world there was only one entity God . May be God felt lonely and created this setup (universe) just for self entertainment [​IMG]

    Can someone please through light with the help of Gurbani .
     
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  17. chazSingh

    chazSingh United Kingdom
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    naanak acharaj acharaj sio miliaa kehanaa kashhoo n jaaeae ||4||2||5||
    O Nanak, the wonder-struck soul blends with the Wonderful Lord; this state cannot be described. 803

    There is no point even discussing what this immersion will be like. one can only know when they experience it, and even then when they wonder the realms of individualisation and the mind, no language, words would be able to describe the state.

    all we can comprehend is:
    from the 'EK' came the 'ONG' sound and from that came the creation 'KAAR'.

    if we are to return to the One, then we must surely only be in singular state ... i.e. god state... maybe some of us will be blessed to experience that state :)
     
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  18. Embers

    Embers
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    Chaz Ji
    It cannot be described but it can be comprehended then described as a singular state i.e. god state. ;)

    My feeling is we have already been caught up in Maya's divine play. :)

    Respectfully,
    Embers.
     
  19. chazSingh

    chazSingh United Kingdom
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    This is just the problem, our minds go a little loopy trying to understand these things :)
    our minds cannot understand, comprehend things that are beyond it's capacity of logic and boundaries and limits...but we still try and the result i make a fool out myself by saying something cannot be described but then indirectly try to describe it :)


    thats why gurbani tries to give us enough so that our minds are satisfied to a certain extent...if we can tame the mind with logic, it starts to sit quietly...then we get a chance to do the real exploring which is the key to it all....simran/meditation during amrit vela as Guru Nanak Dev ji slaps across to us. If we do this, and do our seva and give daswandh...i reckon we'll all get to experience this.

    Just my thoughts
     
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  20. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    In my opinion, the state of Mukti is knowing and living the truth. It is knowing what to say, what to do, what to direct ones thoughts, what to eat, who to love, who to forgive, who to stand up to, it is knowing how the world operates and walking by that rythmn.

    I think our identity is hugely important, as is the balance between accepting life around us, and finding the truth. The Tenth Master did not hide away in himself ignoring the maya around him, he dressed well, he enjoyed hunting, he lived and he lived well. Whilst doing so, he also stood for the truth, fought for the truth, I think that balance between living and being truthful is hard, but that encapsulates Sikhism for me.
     
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  21. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    What 10th Nanak did is just miraculous. Making Sikhs as SINGHS with a
    proud of being KINGS.

    This is just a wonderful gift every sikh owes a great deal of tribute by maintaining
    the identity aspect of Sikhs at least.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
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