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Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh Religion by Vested Interests

Discussion in 'Essays on Sikhism' started by Gyani Jarnail Singh, Dec 12, 2004.

  1. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Introduction
    Guru Nanak (1469-1539) laid the foundation of Sikhi (Sikhism) during the 15th century, the Period of Renaissance (between 14th and 17th century) when the scientists were challenging some of the concepts of the Church in Europe. During this period Guru Nanak was busy in challenging the ancient mythology and rituals in which the peoples of South Asia were shackled for centuries. I am proud to claim that it was Guru Nanak who promulgated a scientific and logical philosophy during the 15th century for the world to create a sense of morality to establish peace on this earth. The irony is that after five centuries if we examine the effect of teachings of Guru Nanak on humanity in general and on the Sikhs in particular, it will not be difficult to come to the conclusion that what the Sikhs are doing today is exactly contrary to the Nanakian Philosophy [1].

    Causes
    It happened so because of the absence of preaching of Gurbani and Sikhism in their real perspective by the so-called custodians of Sikhism after the end of era of the Sikh Gurus in 1708. After the time of Banda Bahadur majority of the Sikhs were living in the forests and during this period preaching of Gurbani and Sikhism, and control of the Sikh institutions fell into the hands of the Biprans (Who work against the Nanakian Philosophy). This situation continued to be in the same state even during the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and thereafter. During the Singh Sabha Movement some attempts were made to interpret Gurbani and represent Sikhism in their real perspective by some dedicated Sikh scholars. Soon this movement was taken over by the Sikh scholars who were heavily burdened with the ancient philosophy, mythology and Bipreet (Ritualism or practices which are contrary to the Nanakian Philosophy). During this period the use of discriminating intellect (Babaek Budhi) to find the truth was discouraged and was declared as sin by the Biprans. It is still happening so during the Age of Science.

    During the early 1900s Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) came into existence with main objective to manage the Gurdwaras and preaching of Gurbani and Sikhism in their real perspective. The SGPC did very commendable work by establishing educational institutions, hospitals and improving managements of Gurdwaras. It was holding very prestigious position in the hearts of the Sikh masses and national political leaders of India, like, Jawahar Lal Nehru, Mahatma Gandhi, and others during the struggle of independence of India. Prof Harbans Singh declared SGPC as a “Unique Ecclesiastical Institution” of the Sikhs and Dr Khushwant Singh entitled it as “Parliament of the Sikhs” and “A government within the government.”

    Soon after the independence of India in 1947 the SGPC started to show decline in its administration and further improvement in the management of Gurdwaras and educational institutions. Rifts started among the members of the SGPC and with those of the Shiromani Akali Party (SAD). These rifts reached at their peak during the celebration of Tercentenary of Khalsa in 1999. This situation is still worsening every day; consequently, there are many SGPCs, Alkali Dals, many Sikh student Federations, many Sikh Youth Federations, many Sikh Councils, and many claimants of Akal Takht. Now recently a Khalsa Panchayat has come into existence that is after certain corrupt Jathedars of certain Takhts.

    Recent struggle on the election of the President of the SGPC during October-November 2002 became a news of the world and many state governments as well as Central Government were involved in it seriously. It had once again confirmed that the Sikhs are so much divided that they spend most of their time and money on fighting with each other rather than on proper management of Gurdwaras, dissemination of Sikhism and welfare of the Sikhs.

    The Institute of Sikh Studies (IOSS), Chandigarh has also reached to the conclusion in 2001 Conference that almost all the Sikh institutions, e.g. The Akal Takht, SGPC, Amritsar, Delhi Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, Chief Khalsa Diwan, Sikh Educational Conference and the recently formed World Sikh Council failed badly to represent Gurbani and Sikhism in their real perspective and to look after the interest of the Sikhs.

    Taking the advantage of the internal feud between Sikh religious and political authorities the Biprans (includes Sikhs as well as non-Sikhs) have joined their hands and started to propagate Sikhism in their own way and some are trying to amalgamate it with Hinduism. Currently a lot of misinformation about Sikhism is being reported in all types of media by Biprans. Since the Sikh history and literature published during the 18th and 19th century is full of misinterpretations of Nanakian Philosophy and misrepresentations of Sikhism, therefore, these sources are being exploited to their maximum extent to achieve their above objectives. The notable writings from the old literature on Sikhism, which carry a lot misinformation about Gurbani and Sikhism, are as follows:


    Dasam Granth, ~1721 CE. Supposed to be compiled by Bhai Mani Singh after collecting various Banis ascribed to Guru Gobind Singh;
    Sri Gur Subha, 1711 CE, by Sainapat;
    Gur Bilas Patshahi 6, 1751 CE, Anonymous;
    Bansavelinama, 1769 CE, by Kesar Singh Chibber;
    Gur Bilas Patshahi 10, 1797 CE, by Sukha Singh;
    Parchia Pathshayan Das, early 18th century;
    Panth Parkash, 1809 CE, by Rattan Singh;
    Sarbloh Granth, by Sukha Singh?;
    Mehma Parkash;
    Prem Sumarg;
    Janam Sakhis and Chamatkars of Sikh Gurus by various authors,
    Rehit Namae by various authors;
    Hukmnamae issued by the Sikh Gurus at various times; and many more such writings.

    In these days Dasam Granth is being portrayed as religious and literary work of highest quality composed entirely by Guru Gobind Singh. Just a simple example, based on the information given in the Dasam Granth Guru Gobind has been declared as a devotee of Goddess Chandi in the NCERT syllabus book “Medieval India” prescribed for class XI. Lot of misrepresentations of Sikhism are appearing in the current media and many of such misrepresentations are based on the misinformation given in the above books.

    Although these old writings contain some useful historical data, a lot of information is contrary to the Nanakian Philosophy, incorporated in the Aad Guru Granth Sahib (AGGS). The contradictory information given in such books is used to misinterpret Gurbani and misrepresent Sikhism by the Biprans, which includes many Sikh scholars. I would like to report some views about this situation as follows:

    1. According to Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha [3] the old Sikh literature (of the 18th and 19th centuries) has been written according to the level of intelligence and beliefs of the writers. From this old literature we are getting a lot of useful information as well as that is contrary to the Gurmat. He has also emphasized that the most important thing is that there is a dearth of research scholars but on the other hand there are many who are deadly against the research scholars and would declare them as atheists or the enemies of Gurmat.
    2. Piara Singh Padam [5] says about Rehit Namae that: “It is a mistake to accept every information given in every Rehit Nama is according to Gurmat. Many authors have written according to their own level of intelligence or under the influence of manmat (under the influence of ancient philosophy, ritualism, etc.), that are not right.”
    3. Similarly, Harinder Singh Mehboob [2] has reported that 85 out of 87 Hukmnamae recorded in the book, Hukmnamae, of Ganda Singh [6], are fake Hukmnamae.
    4. Now more and more such Rehit Namae and Hukmnamae are being discovered which support the already misinterpreted Gurbani and misrepresented Sikhism. For example, Hukmnama issued by Guru Gobind Singh to the Sangat of Kabul is the recent ‘discovery’, which is not found in Ganda Singh’s book, Hukmnamae.

    Any genuine effort taken by any scrupulous Sikh scholar, who tried to preach Nanakian Philosophy and Sikhism in their real perspective, has been treated very badly by the so-called authorities on Sikhism. Many such scholars were excommunicated. For example, Prof Gurmukh Singh was excommunicated in 1887 CE by Maan Singh, the Manager of Golden Temple Complex, Amritsar due to the pressure put by the opposition members (Arya Samajists), especially, Baba Khem Singh Bedi, Raja Bikram Singh, and Avtar Singh Vahiria, of the Singh Sabha. The opposition members were also trying to keep ancient mythology and rituals in Sikhism and to continue Guru-ship in living persons. Baba Khem Singh Bedi of this group was acclaimed as the 13th position in Guru Nanak’s lineage by his associates and followers. Similarly, the press of Ditt Singh, an excellent orator, writer, and a colleague of Prof Gurmukh Singh, was put out of business because of litigation by the opposing group (Arya Samajists) in Singh Sabha [Inferred from the data given in ref. # 4].

    About a century ago, it was Karam Singh, a famous Sikh historian, who took courage to analyze the Janam Sakhi (biography) of Guru Nanak written by Bhai Bala. He proved in his book, Katik kae Vaisakh [7], that the stories recorded in it cannot pass the test of Gurbani, science, and logic, the touchstones of truth. Guru Nanak has been portrayed as a great Hindu but lower in spirituality than Bhagat Kabir and Hundal. His book was removed from the sale list by the Khalsa Diwan most probably by Giani Gian Singh soon after its publication [inferred from the letter of Giani Gian Singh published in the new edition. Ref. # 7].

    Moreover, especially in the West some Sikh individuals, some Gurdwara’s Executives, and some Sikh Organizations have become self styled authorities on Sikhism and are issuing directives to some Sikh scholars to teach Sikhism of their ideology rather than in its real perspective. They are also creating problems for researchers who are challenging misinterpretation of Gurbani and misrepresentation of Sikhism, and unscientific codes and rituals found in the old literature. This is becoming a greatest hurdle in dissemination of Gurbani and Sikhism in their real perspective to the humanity.

    In addition to the above direct actions they also force the Jathedar of the Akal Takht to excommunicate some Sikh researchers and writers without proper evaluation of their work. My analysis of this situation is that most of the Sikh scholars cannot dare to speak the truth because of Draconian sword of excommunication is always hanging on their heads.

    In the recent past Sikh religious authorities have excommunicated Sikhs of almost all levels of social and political strata and academicians during the period of Bhai Ranjit Singh as the Jathedar of Akal Takht. Unfortunately excommunications continued by Giani Puran Singh, who was appointed to replace Bhai Ranjit Singh, till he was also removed by the SGPC. The newly appointed Jathedar, Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti, set another bad precedent in the Sikh history when all the closely associated religious and political personnel, who were excommunicate by the previous Jathedar of the Akal Takht, were exonerated while all the five Sikhs of British Columbia, Canada, who challenged the unscientific and illogical Hukmnama of Langar, remained excommunicated.

    On the other hand, Recently Gur Bilas Patshahi 6 has been reprinted by the Dharam Parchar Committee of the SGPC, Amritsar. It was edited by two scholars, Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti, the then Head Granthi of the Harmandar Sahib and now the Jathedar of Akal Takht, and Dr Amarjit Singh, Professor of Shaheed Sikh Missionary College, Amritsar [8].

    Gur Bilas Patshahi 6 has regularly been recited in many Gurdwaras in the past and is still being recited in many and also being used by many scholars to construct Sikhism. Its publication has been praised as ‘a unique service, an authentic biography of the Guru, a matchless gift’, etc. by the following religious authorities without analyzing its contents that how much the information given in it is worth and how much goes against the originality and uniqueness of the Gurbani and Sikhism: Bhai Ranjit Singh, the then Jathedar of Akal Takht, Jathedar Gurcharan Singh Tohra, the then President of the SGPC, Bhai Manjit Singh, Jathedar of Takht Kes Garh, Bhai Kewal Singh, Jathedar Takht Damdama Sahib, Bhai Sukhdev Singh Bhaur, the then Acting President of the SGPC, Manjit Singh Calcutta, the then Minister of Higher Education, Punjab, Giani Sant Singh Maskeen, an approved Dharam Parcharak of the SGCP, Bhai Jaswant Singh, Katha Vachak of Gurdwara Manji Sahib, Dalip Singh Maloonagar, the Senior President of SGPC, Joginder Singh Talwara, Narinder Singh Soch, Gianai Balwant Singh ‘Kotha Guru’.

    Although Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti and Prof Amarjit Singh have admitted that it contains some denigrating information, even then they have not tried to distinguish that how much is true and how much goes against the Gurbani and Sikhism leaving the readers in confusion. Recently it has come to my notice that the Dharam Parchar Committee of Shrimoni Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC), Amritsar has published the first issue (July 2002) of Gurmat Gian in Hindi for Hindi-speaking people. On the title page they have misconstrued < , the unique logo of Guru Nanak, into Ik Om Kaar in Hindi by representing OM in Hindi and by adding one before it and an extra line at the top of OM. They have not only misconstrued the Logo of Guru Nanak but have mutilated the OM of Hindus also.

    If such type of publications are being produced by the so-called authorities (with the blessings of the Jathedars, SGPC President and Education Minister of SAD Government and by the Dharam Parchar Committee) then what intellectual power they have to evaluate blasphemous work in the publications of other Sikh and non-Sikh researchers and writers.

    Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana has been summoned at Akal Takht by its Jathedar to clarify the blasphemous work reported in his series of books. It is the same Jathedar, Bhai Sahib Bhai Joginder Singh Vedanti, who has reprinted Gurbilas Patshahi 6 [8] without criticizing the misinformation and unscientific and illogical stories, which go against the Nanakian Philosophy and basic principles of Sikhism. It were critical writings of Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana that lead the SGPC recalling that book. We understand that someone has reprinted it without laudatory comments by the scholars mentioned above.


    Solution
    The Institute For Understanding Sikhism (IUS) stresses the need of an Advisory Committee comprising of Sikhs expert in various fields of Natural and Physical Sciences, Astronomy/Cosmology, Medicine, Philosophy, Psychology, History, Languages, Administration, Laws, etc. and each expert of these fields should be well-versed in Gurbani. They are not necessarily to be eminent Sikhs or Sikh theologians since all of them have been tested already. These experts should be unbiased, having open-mind and scientific temper, and free from allegiance to any political organization; and should be representing various countries of the world since the Sikhs are living all over the world now.

    The IUS is already working on these lines and has an Editorial Board having members, expert in some of the above disciplines. The IUS also considers that Nanakian Philosophy, incorporated in the Aad Guru Granth Sahib after authentication by Guru Arjan and Guru Gobind Singh, is original and unique, and has universal acceptability. Therefore Nanakian Philosophy, science and logic should be taken as the touchstones to find out the truth in the publication of Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana along with all the publications printed and reproduced by the SGPC by this new Advisory Committee yet to be formulated but not by any already existing Dharam Parchar Committee or any other Advisory Committee. After this task they should turn towards all those writings published during 18th and 19th centuries listed above. After this a big task of writing of integrated and comprehensive theology of Sikhism for the humanity is waiting for them.

    Prof Devinder Singh Chahal, PhD
    Institute for Understanding Sikhism
    4418 Martin Plouffe, Laval, Quebec, Canada H7W 5L9
    E-mail: Sikhism@canada.com

    References
    1. Chahal, D. S. 2002. Nanakian Philosophy – The Term Defined. Understanding Sikhism Res. J. 4 (2): 17-22.
    2. Mehboob, Harinder Singh. 1988. Sehjae Rachio Khalsa (Punjabi). Published by the Author. Khalsa College, Garhdiwala, Hoshiarpur.
    3. Nabha, Bhai Sahib Bhai Kahn Singh. 1996 (5th ed.). Gurmat Martand (Punjabi). Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, Amritsar.
    4. Oberoi, Harjot. 1994. The Construction of Religious Boundaries. Oxford University Press, Delhi.
    5. Padam, Pyara Singh. 1984 (3rd ed.). Rehit Namae (Punjabi). Kalam Mandar, Lower Mall, Patiala.
    6. Singh, Ganda. 1985. Hukmnamae (in Punjabi). Punjabi University, Patiala.
    7. Singh, Karam. 1979 (Reprint). Katik kae Vaisakh (Punjabi). Lahore Bookshop, Ludhiana.
    8. Vedanti, Giani Joginder Singh and Singh, Dr Amarjit. 1998. Gur Bilas Patshahi 6 (in Punjabi). Dharam Parchar Committee, Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, Amritsar.
     
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  3. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    Yeas It is indeed very excellent and more distinct thing about it is that it is also providing something in line of how to solve the problem we are facing
     
  4. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Das thank you all for genunine views.

    Hindutva people have been mis quting Holy Guru Granth Sahib Ji too.

    It was Arya Samajis who were making fun of ultimate Truth of Adi Guru Granth Sahib ji,Which made Prof Sahib Singh Ji to write a Tikka(correct Explantion of Darbar Shib Ji) .Kindly read his Sad Sateek.

    So far as Dasham Granth or Sarbloh Granth Is concerned we have copies which are standardies(as In Adi Guru Darbar we have Damdami beer).And thier correct explanation.

    Das has seen the work of Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghan and to some extent Bhag Singh Ji of Ambala.They have a good logic.

    But Faith and knowledge of other Faiths is also needed.

    Das can say that Dasham Granth Ji and Sarb Loh Granth Ji are highly anti Hinduism and Anti Aurangzeeb type of Interpetation of Islam.

    Das just want from all of you that kindly bring verse by verse which they feel is anti Sikh.Das by mercy of Akal is capable to give the correct interpetation.

    Like for example,

    Many people say about the verse of Dasham Granth
    Ram Kath Jug Jug Atal Sabh/Har Koi Bhakhat Neet,
    Surag Bas Raghubar kiya Sagli Puri Samet.

    This means
    Every one (allegeledly) saying daily that story of Rama is permanent for Ages(while truth is) That Rama and his towen is already gone out of world(Heavon).

    So this prove that That lord Rama of hindu was not Atal or permanent.

    This is what Salok Mahal 9 Says

    Ram Gayo,Ravan Gayo,Jako Baho Parwar..

    Ram has gone,Ravana has gone,Who had big family..

    So As per School of Das,The two Granth Mention above are the weapon to destroy hinduism.

    Das is a former Hindu and think that for the welfare of Hindus the sooner,the Better,hinduism must not remain.

    The two Granth told by Guru Gobind Singh Ji are weapons,Which Khalsa will use to destroy Hindutva.

    By Preaching Dasham Granth and Devi Worship allagedly in it,Hindutva people have dug there own idealogies grave.

    Just see the two links below
    http://sgpc.net/forum/topic.asp?TOP...mother+godess)+in+Sikhism&Forum_Title=Sikhism

    Here kindly do not go on replys

    And another topic at
    http://www.gursikhijeevan.com/community/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=6381&t=6381

    They will show how Sanatan Sikhs are fighting Hindutva.

    As A Sikh Das say all Sikhs are justifeid by each and every mean they are using to prevent the idealogical attacks on Panth.This with due apology included Kala Afghana Sahib too.(as per das he is no averse to Panth but there is clash of Idealogy of Faith and Logic with him,He has no hidden Agenda like the heretics like Baba Bhaniyara but more problem with Kala Afghana Sahib is to do with presentation and tendency of scientist,who is more busy with inovations and descovery but off the mark ,when marketing of such descoveries to the user is to be done).

    Faith is always bigger then logic.So did Dhanna Bhagat got Salvation.But hindutva will never get it as they neither have faith nor logic.

    Das say that the two Graths he support for Das they are Das's means provided by Akal to him.

    Das does not hate Hindus but wrong interpetation done by them of our religous scripture.Das realy feel like hate those so called Sikh likes say Nirnakaris or Radhswamis or other heretics(like Baba Bhaniari wale) who also do wrong interpetation of Gurmat.

    Just instead of trying to put correct meaning often meanings are changed.In one Sakhi one person did not spell kaee but ke in shabad and its meaning was coming wrong.Gurudev did let him have service or sewa of sticks.

    Just Bowing to Shri Guru Granth Ji is of not that use till faith and dignity of Gurbani and Khalsa is not understood and respected.Gurudev Made a Taksal just protect the proper meaning of Gurbani as he was aware that in futre we may have Hindutva people at one side and heretic Sikhs on the other to attempt to undo Great work of Gurmat.

    Akal who statarted Panth,Will take care of own Creation.

    Das is sorry if something wrong is said by Agyani like him(das).
     
  5. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    vijaydeep ji,

    When you said "But hindutva will never get it as they neither have faith nor logic," I thought -- this is thinking in the large. Good analysis.
     
  6. pk70

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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    Das does not hate Hindus but wrong interpetation done by them of our religous scripture.Das realy feel like hate those so called Sikh likes say Nirnakaris or Radhswamis or other heretics(like Baba Bhaniari wale) who also do wrong interpetation of Gurmat.( quote Vijaydeep Singh ji)

    As it is said" Dogs bark the caravan goes on" No hating, listen to Guru in this context too
    ਨੇਤ੍ਰਹੁ ਮੇਰਿਹੋ ਹਰਿ ਤੁਮ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਧਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਕੋਈ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਕੋਈ ਨਦਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿਆ ਏਹੁ ਵਿਸੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਤੁਮ ਦੇਖਦੇ ਏਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਨਦਰੀ ਆਇਆ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬੁਝਿਆ ਜਾ ਵੇਖਾ ਹਰਿ ਇਕੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਏਹਿ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਅੰਧ ਸੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਦਿਬ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਹੋਈ
    ੩੬
    O mine yes, God has infused light in ye. Without the Lord, see ye not another, therefore. Save the Lord, see ye not any other. The Merciful Master-Lord alone is worthy of beholding. This entire world, which ye behold is the Lord's manifestation. God's image alone is seen in it. By Guru's grace, when I realise the reality, I perceive but one God. Without the Lord, there is not any other. Says Nanak, these eyes were blind, on meeting the True Guru, they have become omniscient.
    ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਵਰਤਾਏ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਵਰਤਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਬੁਝਾਏ ਤੋੜੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਏ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਏਕਸ ਸਿਉ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਏ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬੁਝਾਏ ੨੬
    Himself creating mind and matter, the Creator subjects them to His command. The Lord enforces His order, He Himself sees all, Through the Guru, He makes some rare one know Him. He bursts his bonds, obtains emancipation and enshrines the Lord's Name in his mind. He, whom the Lord Himself makes holy, becomes so and fixes his attention on the One Lord. Says Nanak, God Himself is the Creator and Himself reveals His will.
     
  7. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    First, if anyone is at all honest, it must be acknowledged that the meaning of the term, "Hindutva" is not the same as the meaning of the term Hindu. As Hindutva necessarily implies a POLITICAL organization, and as such it has a political orientation, world-view and agenda. The same is true of Arya Samaj which is a Britishized Hindu organization developed to cause divisions within Hindu religion as well as Sikh religion and is justifiably controversial and a political "Hindutva" organization as well.

    What the average Sikh fails to realize is 1. no political organization on earth has the power to distort or malign Gurbani. Gurbani is rooted in the anehad Shabad. It is eternal truth. The POLITICAL responses among politicized "Sikh" organizations is also filled with as much political agenda as is radical Hindutva. And that NONE of these messages is a spiritual message.

    What the average Sikh also fails to realize is that the interpretation of Sikhism is broader than the current politicized Tat Khalsa view, which is intolerant in the extreme, and itself has ostracized and condemned who you call as "intellectual" Kala Afghana. In equating every NON-Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha, SGPC interpretation of Gurbani as either "Hindutva" or hateful is to do a disservice to the heritage of Sikhism, which necessarily had a broader and more tolerant interpretation in the recent past, and a spiritual, yet sanatan message.

    Regardless whether any individual Sikh agrees with or choose to believe in this sanatan Sikh worldview, it cannot be excised so easily from the history. The radical truth is, "Hindutva" is not the origination of the sanatan Sikh identity. The sanatan Sikh identity far predates the British invasion and is evident in the teachings of Prem Sumarag, Dasm Granth, Shri Guru Granth, Sau Sakhi, and even Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji. It is evident in the carryover of Siddha Nath yoga techniques of piercing the chakrs and raising the surti to open dasm duar using technique of kechari mudra. This is straight up Siddha Nath yoga. And the carryover is the wide folk appeal of someone like Baba Balak Nath and the history of Sikh caretakers of his shrines in Punjab.

    No organization is going to erode the historical evidence of a greater harmony and blending of customs and traditions between Sikhism and Hinduism which existed in the recent past by writing exaggerated and hateful diatribes against Hindus and Hindu religion to please extremists. All you are doing is dragging any tolerance and maturity of Sikh religion into the mud by such slanderous and hostile definitions of faith.

    First of all, when did you become a brahmgyani with the right to declare who is and who is not misquoting Gurbani? The fact that Gurbani is a LIVING Jyot means that the interpretations are bound to have different meanings to different people. It's precisely this dictatorial authoritarianism and hateful despising of any other viewpoint which is causing modern Sikhism to resemble intolerant Wahabism. And in this regard the Sikhs are doing more harm to their "religion" than any Hindutva organization which isn't even interested in any spiritual message but in voting blocs.

    There are a lot more accomplished scholars even within Nihang Panth who would refute you. The biggest attack on Dasm Granth is that it is precisely the Hindu element, stories of avtaaras and devi which is resented. How a sectarian message of the traditional teachings of avtaaras and devi Chand/Durga gets changed into an anti-Hindu message may please the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha element, but it remains wishful thinking on it's face. It is the Sarabakal Adishakti which is the very heart of the sarbloh bibek tradition and the worship of the shakti in sarbloh weapons which is the heart of Akali Nihang power and spirituality. Unfortunately, any truthful, unbiased interpretation must necessarily take into account that Adishakti is female enegy of bhaugati, or devi. It doesn't mean this is the SOLE interpretation, but it can't be denied as the most logical one, and one that has existed historical parrallel with Sikhism. You can't erase that fact simply because you "hate it."

    There is no artificial conflict in a sanatan interpretation being anti-Sikh, except by radically intolerant social forces that so despise the traditional sanatan Hindu tradition that it alone, by merely existing as a cultural phenomenon is considered antithetical to "Sikh" survival and must be denied and destroyed at all costs. Talk about fanaticism.

    This fails to negate because it fails to account for the philosophical understanding that Raam as an avatar was both a physical being and descent from the ParamJyoti. Just as Guru Gobind Singh Ji's physical form has also long fallen to dust, the spiritual Jyoti which comes from the nirguna can never be destroyed because that aspect of His being as avtaara is merged in the Unborn Lord, so Raam is also part of the infinite Paramjyoti. These personalities are only forms of the One formless all-pervading Lord. These personalities and forms exist so people can have a perception of the God. Why so much despising of Ram? Didn't the beloved bhagat Kabir Ji love Raam? Didn't the beloved Vaishnava sants in Gurbani love Raam? So why now all of a sudden, despite the fact that in Gurbani alone, the name of the eternal imperishable nirgun Lord is called after the sarguna of Ram more than 8,000 times do people fail to distinguish as Gurbani does, between the form of Raam as a human being, and the avataar nature of Raam which is merged in the Divine Supreme and thus gives a sargun name to the unpronounceable?

    Such a quote proves nothing at all about worthlessness of Raam, as every form of Guru was just as impermanent and no longer exists... yet we still bow to Gurji as Living Presence, as Shabad-Jyot in Shri Guru Granth Sahib, and recognize Him as merged in the Divine Uncreated Light.


    So has Guru Gobind Singh Ji gone. But the Shabad-Jyot which pervaded Guruji's physical body is eternal. It alone can never die. This is our mukti. This is our boat of salvation. And according to Gurbani, the das avataaras, including Raam, also had this Divine Jyot as they are described in Gurbani as yuga avataars just like Guru Nanak Dev Ji. If the nirguna cannot save the world in different yugs, we would have no religion in the world at all, let alone one called "Sikhism" allegedly founded on the spiritual REALITY of Satguruji being merged in the Shabad-Jyot of the nirguna, which necessarily by definition also happens to mean avataar, or descent of the Light-Sound into the darkness of sansaara.

    How exactly would a short sighted misinterpretation have the power or desire to destroy the eternal and ancient Hindu faith? What kind of new version of Wahabi fanaticism paints Sikh religion's essential holy books and spiritual teachings as "intending to destroy Hindu religion?" How childishly outrageous. Talk about extremist fanaticism. Seriously just listen to yourselves. There is no political Hindutva in the world who can do you as much harm as your doing to yourselves with these profoundly immature and extreme interpretations of Guru's loving bani.

    WHY would Gurubani want to destroy anything except our own inner demons? Sikhism is NOT some jihadi religion of destroying false faiths which it hates and despises. That is absolutely the death of the Sikh message.


    I think there are a lot of men who have tremendous fear of the power of the Divine feminine and think to eradicate and destroy what is a part of themselves. Any depth spiritual work must necessarily be about balancing opposites, not destroying or subjugating the feminine nature. I really do wish Sikhs would stop trying to Islamify Gursikhi and it's sanatan message of balance, tolerance and sincere spirituality.

    Destroying Hinduism? What a ridiculous Sikh world-view. And you are in the minority and wonder why such things as government sponsored gallugharas occur to wipe out militant fanaticism and death threats and violent talk against the Indian state and innocent Hindu's. This sounds worse than any missionary. It sounds like rebirth of the Moghuls. Talk like this will surely lead to conflicts. Stop now. Be responsible. Don't preach hate. And don't create the future of Sikh destruction by such outrageous and extreme fanatical talk. Think of the children and think of the bloodbaths which have already occured. We have a responsibility to promote wisdom, maturity, harmony, healing and peace. I would be embarrassed to promote such hostility, intolerance and violence as a valid and believable interpretation of Guruji's spiritual message. Why don't you destroy what is fanatical in yourselves and try to be loving and accepting to ordinary Hindu people (who aren't politicians) as a HUMBLE and spiritual person would. Do seva for your Hindu neighbors. Philosophies of hate, sectarianism and thinly-veiled violence are bringing nothing but grief into this world. We desperately need to counterbalance a hypermasculinized Islamified monotheistic anti-female God with a Divine female energy which cherishes life and protects the innocent from harm, with the love of Divine Mother.


    I praise and bless the Divine for the truly loving and pure Holy Mata Shakti. The unbalanced male energies always become torturers and haters of the world. I fear for all of you who hold these beliefs, in the name of Sikh religion.

    Yes, I suppose you can start with blowing yourselves up to prevent anyone having an opinion which you consider an "ideological attack." Then after the fanatics are all dead and gone, the more moderate people could start building bridges of healing, reconciliation, and forgiveness between Sikh and Hindu communities which have both suffered far too long and begin to be real neighbors.

    I'm sorry veerji, this is just extremist fanaticism. Violence by any means justified against a belief system is outrageously irresponsible to promote. Isn't this how the Air India 182 got blown up? What on earth are people teaching Sikh children? You keep following this destructive preaching, and just like Al Qaeda, the whole world will hate the Sikhs and the fearful government overreaction and violence of the 1980's and 1990's will begin anew. Is that what you want for the future of Sikhi? Simranjit Singh Mann shouting Pakistan Zindabad. Babbar Khalsa assassinating sanatan dera leaders. Planes being hijacked and blown up? And another gallughara which slaughters and maims the innocent in retaliation for irresponsible messages of hate?


    My God, please stop. Do japa of Naams of Love with bhakti in your heart instead. Pray for understanding and world peace. I beg you. If religion can't teach you compassion and love and tolerance, please stop being religious and hurting spiritual teaching in the name of personal hate.
     
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  8. pk70

    pk70
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    ON WHOM KABIR JI MEDITATES, ANSWER IN KABIR JI”S OWN WORDS, SO BELIEVE HIM ONLY

    People say:
    Nਗਉੜੀ ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜੀਅ ਜੋਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਤ ਨੰਦੁ ਬਹੁ ਥਾਕੋ ਰੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤਿ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਲੀਓ ਹੈ ਭਾਗੁ ਬਡੋ ਬਪੁਰਾ ਕੋ ਰੇ
    Gauri. Wandering through eighty-four lakhs of animate existences Krishans adoptive father, Nand, was greatly worn-out. Because of his devotion Krishan became incarnate in his house. Great was the good fortune of the poor man.
    ਜੀਅ ਜੋਨਿ ਮਹਿ = ਜੀਵਾਂਦੀਆਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿਚਭ੍ਰਮਤ = ਭਟਕਦਾਰੇ = ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤਿ = ਭਗਤੀ ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ, ਉਸ ਦੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਤੇ ਤ੍ਰੁੱਠ ਕੇਅਵਤਾਰੁ = ਜਨਮਬਪੁਰਾ ਕੋ = ਵਿਚਾਰੇ ਦਾ

    ਹੇਭਾਈ! (ਤੁਸੀ ਆਖਦੇ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਜਦੋਂ) ਚੌਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਭਟਕ ਭਟਕ ਕੇਨੰਦ ਬਹੁਤ ਥੱਕ ਗਿਆ (ਤੇ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਭਗਤੀਕੀਤੀ), ਉਸ ਦੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਹੋ ਕੇ (ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਘਰ) ਜਨਮ ਲਿਆ, ਉਸਵਿਚਾਰੇ ਨੰਦ ਦੀ ਬੜੀ ਕਿਸਮਤ ਜਾਗੀ
    KABIR JI QUESTIONS THOSE WHO CALL” NAND” FATHER OF GOD
    ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਜੁ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਨੰਦਨੁ ਨੰਦ ਸੁ ਨੰਦਨੁ ਕਾ ਕੋ ਰੇ ਧਰਨਿ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਦਸੋ ਦਿਸ ਨਾਹੀ ਤਬ ਇਹੁ ਨੰਦੁ ਕਹਾ ਥੋ ਰੇ ਰਹਾਉ
    You say that Krishan was Nand's son, whose son was that Nand himself? When there were no earth, firmament and ten directions, where was this Nand then? Pause.
    ਜੁ = ਜਿਹੜੀ ਇਹ ਗੱਲਨੰਦਨੁ = ਪੁੱਤਰਨੰਦ = ਇਹ ਗੋਕਲ ਦਾ ਇਕ ਗੁਆਲਾ ਸੀ, ਇਸ ਦੀ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਸ਼ੋਧਾਸੀਜਦੋਂ ਕੰਸ ਆਪਣੀ ਭੈਣ ਦੇਵਕੀ ਦੇ ਘਰ ਨਵੇਂ ਜਨਮੇ ਬਾਲ-ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰਨਾਚਾਹੁੰਦਾ ਸੀ ਤਾਂ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਪਿਤਾ ਵਸੂਦੇਵ ਨੇ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਥਰਾ ਤੋਂ ਰਾਤੋ ਰਾਤ ਲੈ
    ਜਾ ਕੇ ਨੰਦ ਦੇ ਹਵਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਸੀਨੰਦ ਤੇ ਜਸ਼ੋਧਾਂ ਨੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਲਿਆ ਸੀ।।ਸੁ = ਉਹਕਾ ਕੋ = ਕਿਸ ਦਾ? ਧਰਨਿ = ਧਰਤੀਦਸੋ ਦਿਸ = ਦਸੇ ਪਾਸੇ, (ਭਾਵ, ਇਹ ਸਾਰਾਜਗਤ)ਰਹਾਉ

    ਪਰ, ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਤੁਸੀ ਜੋ ਇਹ ਆਖਦੇ ਹੋ ਕਿ (ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੰਦ ਦੇ ਘਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਲੈ ਕੇ) ਨੰਦ ਦਾਪੁੱਤਰ ਬਣਿਆ, (ਇਹ ਦੱਸੋ ਕਿ) ਉਹ ਨੰਦ ਕਿਸ ਦਾ ਪੁੱਤਰ ਸੀ? ਤੇ ਜਦੋਂ ਨਾਹ ਇਹ ਧਰਤੀਅਤੇ ਨਾਹ ਅਕਾਸ਼ ਸੀ, ਤਦੋਂ ਇਹ ਨੰਦ (ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਤੁਸੀ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਪਿਓ ਆਖ ਰਹੇ ਹੋ)ਕਿਥੇ ਸੀਰਹਾਉ
    HERE KABIR JI MAKES CLEARS ALL DOUBTS ABOUT WHOM HE MEDITATES
    ਸੰਕਟਿਨਹੀਪਰੈਜੋਨਿਨਹੀਆਵੈਨਾਮੁਨਿਰੰਜਨਜਾਕੋਰੇ ਕਬੀਰਕੋਸੁਆਮੀਐਸੋਠਾਕੁਰੁਜਾਕੈਮਾਈਬਾਪੋਰੇ੧੯੭੦
    He whose Name is the Immaculate Lord falls not in trouble and undergoes not birth.Kabir's Master is such a Lord, who has neither mother, nor father.

    ਸੰਕਟਿ = ਸੰਕਟ ਵਿਚ, ਦੁੱਖ ਵਿਚਨਿਰੰਜਨ = ਅੰਜਨ-ਰਹਿਤ, ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਤੋਂ ਉਤਾਂਹ

    ਹੇਭਾਈ! (ਅਸਲ ਗੱਲ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜਿਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ) ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਹੈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਦੇਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਅਸਰ ਹੇਠ ਨਹੀਂ ਆ ਸਕਦਾ), ਉਹ ਜੂਨ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦਾ, ਉਹ (ਜੰਮਣ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ)ਦੁੱਖ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਂਦਾਕਬੀਰ ਦਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ (ਸਾਰੇ ਜਗਤ ਦਾ) ਪਾਲਣਹਾਰ ਐਸਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦੀਨਾ ਕੋਈ ਮਾਂ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਨਾ ਪਿਓ੧੯੭੦ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਭਾਵ: ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਆਪ ਸਾਰੇ ਜਗਤ ਨੂੰਰਚਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਖੇਲ ਨੂੰ ਉਹ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ; ਉਹ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਵਿਚਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦਾ, ਉਸ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਮਾਂ-ਪਿਉ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈਗੋਕਲ ਦੇ ਗੁਆਲੇ ਨੰਦ ਨੂੰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾਪਿਉ ਆਖਣਾ ਵੱਡੀ ਭੁੱਲ ਹੈ੭੦

    BE AWARE OF FALSE CLAIMS.:yes:
     
  9. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    quoted material: My God, please stop. Do japa of Naams of Love with bhakti in your heart instead. Pray for understanding and world peace. I beg you. If religion can't teach you compassion and love and tolerance, please stop being religious and hurting spiritual teaching in the name of personal hate. end of quoted material.

    Harjas Ji, The time has come for this to end. When individuals disagree with your point of view this in no way suggests fanaticism or the promotion of hatred. An infraction has been issued.

     
  10. ekmusafir_ajnabi

    ekmusafir_ajnabi
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    Waheguru Bhali kare, Sumatt Bakshe
     
  11. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    After the decades of Sikh militancy and threats to murder Hindus, the assassination of sanatan dera leaders and the bombing of Air India Flight 182, for you to say no one is preaching the destruction of Hinduism, while so very clearly here on this thread, it is being directly quoted as encouraging the justification of any means, it is not I who am falsely accusing or insulting. But anyone preaching destruction of any religion, and in those very words, clearly is the one who should receive the infraction. But of course the anti-Hindu agenda prevents fairness on this forum. Keep giving me infractions for objecting to unbelievable preaching of destruction against Hinduism. The insult is in the preaching of destruction of any faith, but you seem to protect and support it while blaming me for objecting. Artificial infractions have no relevance to conscience. You should have a conscience as a forum moderator and stop promotion of destruction and justification of any means when we have such a recent history of bloodshed and violence.


    YouTube - Air India 182 - Trailer

    Alleged Sikh militants caught; were targetting Dera



    Since assassinations by Sikh extremists are continuing to occur as recent events, any public commentary calling for destruction of Hindus by any means necessary is not only irresponsible, it's sending an anti-Gurmat message. And I accuse the forum moderators of irresponsibility in not censuring such hostile and intolerant commentary. That is morally inexcusable. NO ONE in name of Gursikhi has the right to promote or preach destruction of any religion or any people. This isn't a Dharam yudh, it's simply intolerance of sanatan ideologies. People should stop calling for some kind of Holy War to defend Sikh interests against Hindus. Let the militancy days end with genuine reconciliation through our good-hearted efforts to be fair to one another.


    Imagine if I had used the exact same sentences to talk about destruction of Sikhism. Someone would probably try to kill me. But to speak like this against Hinduism is defended by the forum moderator and I am being moderated into banning because I object, and not because I insulted someone to expose the hostile prejudice in these comments. The true insult lies in such comments promoting destruction. They should be removed and apology issued for speaking against Hindu Dharam that way.

    Forum members are free to insult and degrade Hindu religion. But if you try to support sanatan Sikh viewpoint you will get deleted, moderated, censored and accused of attacking the Sikh identity. So, no, members are NOT free to express their views. They are free to hate on Hinduism.
     
  12. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    Harjas Kaur ji

    I am surprised by your change of views in just 5 months

    look what you have written in march

     
  13. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    Yes, I've been discussing in many posts my complete change of understanding which caused me to conscientiously rethink the morality and accuracy of some of these political positions. First, I did have doubts about some things I was being told. But since everybody in the sangat held the same opinions, I didn't have to confront my doubts very often. As I understand it now, the attacks against Sikhs are not correctly to be termed "Hindu" attacks as the RSS actively saved the lives of Sikhs particularly in the Delhi riots. Moreover, despite all the anti-Hindu rhetoric and blame, which one endlessly hears in pro-Khalistani sangats, the REAL perpetrators of Sikh gallughara were the Punjab Police, and overwhelming majority of them were keshdhari Sikhs. Even operation Bluestar was led by a Sikh General. So how can anyone deduce anti-Hinduism from that while blatently ignoring the obvious... a large section of the Sikh comunity in India did not support the Khalistanis. Large support for pro-Khalistanis comes from the diaspora, because there's is the only viewpoint most people ever hear. Therefore, logically, it is NOT a Hindu versus Sikh conflict. That is a lie. Who would choose to continue believing in lies? It was a secular Congress that targeted Sikhs. Those are facts.


    One has to also look at the fact that the Indian government just didn't react to target innocent Sikhs as per the Khalistani version of the story. Rather there were a number of developments, not unlike what is happening today with the Jaipur cinema bombing, the undeniable connection between Pakistan and Sikh militant movements, and an orchestrated agenda to promote communal disharmony. When trying to analyze all the factors involved, it can't be ignored that there were precipitating provocations, most notably the targeting of sanatan Sikh dera leaders for assassination, a trend which continues to the present day.




    So if one asks the questions, "WHY are Hindus the enemy of Sikhs." "WHY are sanatan dera leaders invariably reviled and targeted for murder by extremists." "WHY are sanatan granths such as Prem Sumarag and Gur Bilas, even the Sau Sakhis, Janam Sakhis, and Dasm Granth treated with almost perfect silence, immediate discounting, and even banned by SGPC?"


    Another question arises... "What exactly is the role of sanatan Sikhi in Sikh history and why is it being suppressed by Sikh institutions?"


    Now, for a convert who has ever only heard one side of the story, and getting tired of listening to seeming provocation by militants such as the 13 Gursikhs who marched agaisnt sant Nirankaris waving swords, not unlike dera protests of this year, where can the sympathy be for their annihilation? Who would march against overwhelming numbers, waving swords agaisnt guns and expect NOT to lose the battle? Those are really foolhardy battle tactics. So why are pro-Khalistanis still praise them 20 years later as shaheed spiritual heroes who got themselves killed due to agitating as a mob against another mob?

    Don't we see parallels to the dera sacha sauda controversy?

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    We have to acknowledge such displays of uncontrolled emotion in the name of defending the faith aren't intimidating those with guns. So why does the Sikh community keep making shaheed martyrs out of people who approach a conflict with absolute foolishness and disregard for their own safety, portraying their own community in the public light in such a negative way as to give rise to stereotypes of terrorists and criminal lawlessness? All this does is invite a government and political backlash. Haven't we learned anything since the militancy days and the gallughara? Do Sikhs as a community want to bring those days back in the name of obtaining some fictional Khalistan? It's suicide, then and now.

    So to put it simply, why I still sympathize with innocent victims of any violence, that includes Hindus as well as Sikhs. The truth be told, pro-Khalistani militants HAVE targetted innocent Hindus for violence. Such tactics are as reprehensible as any other. I do not hear Hindus calling for destruction of Sikhs the way I hear Sikhs provoking Hindu outrage by calling Holy books "disgusting, corrupt and immoral." How many Sikh communities would take to the streets waving swords if Hindus said such things about Guru Granth Sahib? Sikhs would kill people to avenge such outrage. So why are Sikhs as a community taking to the streets and threatening violence against innocents? Why are internet Sikh sites advocating violence against Hindus? I simply do not find reciprocol threats on the Hindu side. I see Hindutva militants, who are as radical as anyone, actually warning Sikhs not to intimidate the innocent. To be honest it's an embarrassment to Sikhs to protray such a public face. Why do we continue to justify and encourage this in our communities? Is this what loyalty means? Blind support at all costs, even against the face of reason?


    [​IMG]
    In Canada? After Air India 182? Can we say foolish lack of sensitivity and praising the wrong things? Is this what Sikhism is? A religion of terrorist groups and rebellion against the Indian state and dispising of all things Hindu in the name of some land of the pure called Khalistan? There are gangster rap songs with more sensible lyrics than this story of political Sikhism.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    After 9/11, a lot of things have changed in the west. This is absolutely the worst time to praise terrorist organizations or unite with Al Qaeda style Muslim militants in Pakistan. What in the world are Sikh extremists thinking?


    So you see, reality is a door that swings both ways. We have to be responsible for our actions and mindful of our consequences. How can the mainstream Sikh community defend such violent provocations against Hindus while complaining of injustice and marginalization within India? Sikhs in America and Canada don't take to the streets shouting death to Christians! Why is it acceptable for Sikh forums to justify use of any means to "protect the Sikh Panth from evil Hindu influences?"

    Seriously, Sikhs are creating a future that is suicidally destructive. In this day and age of Al Qaeda, and tolerant Western democracies creating secret torture prisons to eliminate jihadies, now is definitely NOT the time to march with Simranjit Singh Mann shouting "Pakistan Zindabad" and going on about Babbar Khalsa or calling Ajaib Singh Bagri "uncleji." No society is going to tolerate it. So how can we continue to speak of innocent Sikhs and not honestly evaluate foolish actions which disregard the safety of innocents within the community? How can we continue to call militants any kind of spiritual heroes who so successfully destroyed themselves in the past decades? Does Sikhism seriously want to repeat that?



    Lets use some mature of understanding here. Sikhs and Hindus are the same people, have so much more in common than differences. All this anti-Hindu hostility and pro-Khalistani rhetoric is manipulation by enemies of Indian government. Sikhs are being used by vested interests, but not in the way they think. The Sikh Gurus are from land of Bharat. Sikh history and heritage is from land of Bharat. Sikh culture is from land of Bharat. Sikh beliefs are from land of Bharat. What is Khalistan? Why do Sikhs continue to support ideology of divisiveness from British Raj to denounce and blame India? Now is golden opportunity for reconciliation. Now is the time to heal old divisions and make India a great country. Support democracy, justice but without hostility and communal self-interest. Support peace and prosperity, spiritual maturity, hope, healing and defense of the precious things which happen to include more than interests of "Sikh" community alone. Make Sikhi great. Make Sikhi spiritual. How can this ever be if Sikh fanatics go around assassinating whoever believes differently?


    if Sikhism chooses to downplay and ostracize historical relationship to Udasis and Guru Nanak Dev Ji's own son Shri Chand Yogi, dismiss as uninformed entire Nirmala Panth or Akali Nihang sanatan history it is one thing. It is suspicious that so much history of interpretation within Sikhism itself has sanatan ideology and teachings, but how can one ignore the corroboration of these teachings in GURU graqnth Sahib itself? Because Gurmat means whatever is words of GURU, not words of popular and accepted interpretation. So this was the first thing that proved to me mainstream Sikhism did not know what it was talking about, there is an entire suppressed and hidden sanatani history within Sikhism which they would prefer you not to know or believe. And such is the rationale behind SGPC's banning, literal banning of a historical Sikh manuscript, Gur Bilas, and the complete ignoring of all these many scattered bits of alternate history which manage to contradict the popular view.

    I found out that when Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji was compiling Prem Sumarag, which is the document which supports the gupt Sant Mat teaching of Sas Giras Simran Naam Abhiyas, he deliberately left several portions of the writing blank. He had deliberately edited out the parts about Jhatka. Since Prem Sumarag (despite it's detractors claim of much later and spurious authorship) actually has the credible date of 1715, this granth was compiled just at the time Guru Gobind Singh Ji was murdered, 1708. This proves the sanatani version of history is credibly much older than even Arya Samaj and time of Mahants in control of Gurdwaras. So that dashes the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha version of history right there and shows a pattern of willful suppression and deceit to suit a historical agenda. It shows that Sikhism itself, as early as the death of Guru Gobind Singh had a practice more in line with what Akali Nihang Singhs have all along claimed. So Naam drihr is Gurmat, but Jhatka is not... because those were the inserted personal beliefs of one historical translator named Bhai Randhir Singh. You could clearly see his translation has (....) in place of commentary about Jhatka. Since his movement, the Akhand Kirtani Jatha practices strict vegetarianism, the deletion of text about eating goat meat is clearly a historical alteration. That makes everything I knew about Sikhism something to be researched and questioned. And it also goes back to WHY was Prem Sumarag so unheard of? The average mainstream Sikh never even heard of an important Sikh historical document. Again, points to doctored history and deliberate suppression of facts.


    The more one investigates, the more it becomes like a can of worms. Sanatan Sikh spirituality of tolerance and unity has been manipulated for a separatist agenda since the 1900's which has caused nothing but exaggerated conflicts, killings and misery.


    Clearly some unwanted truth is being lied about within Sikh institutions. And so I began to seriously lose all faith in Sikh institutions. I mean after all, if I am a chela of a Guru, then Guruji's word is final authority. And if Sikh institutions begin to say Gurbani isn't true, then who can believe in Sikh institutions? Gurbani says there are avataars and that Guruji is an avataar. So SGPC cannot be right. Gurbani cannot be wrong. What if the Sikh Rehit Maryada was itself doctored just like Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh's translation of Prem Sumarag? You see, for an amritdhari person, this kind of historical and factual evidence begins to seriously unravel one's former beliefs. What exactly are Sikhs being manipulated to believe in? And it is on examination a self-serving political ideology of separatism, communal strife and hostility. The logical conclusion of Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha militantly separatist anti-Hindu identity... is Khalistan. And anyone with common sense can see that is a path to failure.

    What kind of fanaticism is this? Why would I continue to invest in beliefs like this which are going nowhere and likely to precipitate another gallughara against Sikhs because the Panth continues to blindly justify the excesses of the foolish and lose the golden opportunity to promote authentically spiritual teachings.

    [​IMG]
    What direction is this leading?


    ~bhul chak maaf
     
  14. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    I am not a pro khalistani sikh .but the fact is sikhs and Hindu's are different now you can't change it.In 1984 if RSS saved the lives of sikhs then there were also RSS men who were actively involved in rioting
    After The assasination of Indira Gandhi 10,000 sikhs were killed and BJP did not even try to make it election issue.84 riots only became election issue in after many years and mainly after 2002 when BJP
    Killed muslims.So the fact is in front of you but you don't want to accept it.Also in 1991 a tamilian killed rajiv gandhi and in 1948 a brahmin killed mahatma Gandhi But no such large scale voilence occured
    so hindu's can assasinate but sikhs can't.

    As far as Hindu's attack on sikhism is concerned yes they don't attack sikhism.The reason is simple
    they are more concerned with christians and muslims.Do you hear about the current voilence in orissa
    Hindu fanatics did not even spared christian orphanage so they are equally as voilent as some sikhs
    the fact is they don't see sikhism as threat thats why they don't attack sikhism.

    Now let me tell you one more thing beef is banned in whole INdia except 7 states.Why because if someone eat it that hurt hindu sentiments.Is tobacco banned in Punjab? You can even purchase tobacco it even around of Gurdwara may be just 1-2 km away.Is it you call it respect of sikhism?
    even tobacco is not banned it amritsar.

    So please all the above facts prove That sikhism and hinduism are different now.And let me tell you
    one more thing you were earlier accusing vijaydeep singh of anti hindu who himself was Hindu and even an RSS worker.He has great knowledge of not only sikh granths but also hindu granths.Our knowledge is nowhere even close to it as he have great theoritical and practical knowledge which very few people have
     
  15. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    Just saying doesn't make it so. There is a lot of evidence, historical and philosophical which validly supports another view.

    There were also Sikhs involved in killing Hindus. The RSS as an organization has itself promoted protection of Sikhs and roundly criticized the Congress Party for 1984. On the other hand, the whole of India, Sikhs included, did not support the militancy. And this was why, albeit a wrong and stupid move, that Harmandir Sahib was attacked by the Army. It was a botched attack that killed many innocents and created a backlash that lasted over 25 years. But even Bluestar was the brainchild of a Sikh General. So by what measure of irresponsibility do you claim,

    Sikhs were already assassinating. That's what caused the government crackdown. Lets be realistic. Look at the weapons recovered in this video.

    YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

    Why were these in a temple? Because Sikhs were being peaceful citizens? Anywhere in the world, in any country, stockpiling weapons, arranging asssassinations, promoting terrorism, threatening to kill Hindus... what would the response be? Handing them the keys to Khalistan? No! It would be foolish and shortsighted and result in a government slaughter of the militants. Again, only propaganda wants to make this a Hindu against Sikh issue.

    [​IMG]
    KPS Gil, Sikh
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Punjab Police, mostly Sikh
    [​IMG]
    General KS Brar, Sikh
    [​IMG]
    CM Beant Singh, Sikh

    So if they are not attacking Sihism, why do a thousand videos and websites of Sikhs claim they do, claim they are the evil enemy? I never supported Hindutva violence. Why should I support Sikh violence or radical Sikh agendas?

    Traditionally, if you do any honest inquiry into Sikh history. Sikhs were among the most vocal advocates of cow protection during time of British Raj. So traditionally and historically, the beef issue was a Sikh-Hindu unity issue. Hundreds of Naamdharis lost their lives fighting for cow protection against British bringing Muslim butchers into Punjab. So already you have created a historically invalid paradox. The very titles of Shri Krishna which appear frequently in Gurbani as Naams of the Lord, Govind, Gopala? Come from the root "go" which means "cow." Govinda means the Lord who is friend of cows. Gopala means the protector of cows. Strange such a Naam for the God appears in Gurbani. As to cigarettes, and even sharab... if you are honest... how many Sikhs are buying them? When the Sikhs themselves kick up a fuss and the product doesn't sell, it will go the way of beef due to activism of Hindus. Again, this is a silly commentary pretending to be Hindu injustice against Sikhs.

    I did not accuse Vijaydeep Singh of anything. I quoted his exact words calling for destruction of Hinduism by Khalsa and claiming anti-Hindu message was in both Granths as completely anti-Gurmat and his knowledge, if he is claiming this is completely wrong and I will address it as such. Also I found objectionable his comment that Sikhs are justified by any means to protect their Panth against Hindus, because as we have seen in recent events, it is tantamount to advocating murder. NO SPIRITUALITY IN THE WORLD BASES IT'S IDENTITY ON THE DESTRUCTION OF ANOTHER SPIRITUALITY UNLESS IT IS PROMOTING HATE AND INTOLERANCE.


    And that simple fact should be unacceptable to anybody.


    Now please tell me where in Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani does it promote destruction of Hinduism? In chaubis avataar? In bachitter nattak? In Chandi Charitra perhaps? Keep dreaming.

    And where precisely in Shri Guru Granth Sahib does it promote destruction of Hinduism?


    ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
    rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
    The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

    ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
    mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
    The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

    ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
    jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
    The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

    ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
    jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
    The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

    ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
    dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
    The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

    ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
    dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
    The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

    ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
    baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
    O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
    sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
    You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

    ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
    banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
    Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

    ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
    sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
    You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

    ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
    bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
    You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

    ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
    gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
    The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

    ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
    baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
    O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

    ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
    mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
    Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

    ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
    dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
    Savior of Dropadi's honor.

    ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
    kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
    Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

    ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
    amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
    The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

    ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
    akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
    His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

    ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
    abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
    O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

    ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
    sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
    The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

    ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
    mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
    By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

    ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
    kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
    The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

    ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
    niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
    He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

    ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
    dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
    He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

    ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
    saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
    He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1082​
     
  16. Sinister

    Sinister
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    harjas ji,

    a meager 5 months ago you were knee deep in believing 'divisive bull'...and now you tell us that you have 'seen the light' and have been saved from the evils of division, strife and hatred?

    hallelujah, praise the lord, she has been saved

    your ideas remind me of the plastic tip on the end of my shoelace...you know the part that provides meager structural integrity to the lace ...the part, you know will be the first to break as the shoe gets old.

    if you want to be a 'humanist' and unite people....at what point does ethinic/national/cultural lines make you separate humans into categories and groups?

    now extrapolite your 'limitations' and try to understand the 'limitations' of your 'sikh brethren'.

    you say sikhs and hindus are the same people...but the very language you use is divisive ... you continue to label humans "sikh" and "hindu" (which only means one thing, these separate collective consciousness' exist even in your worldly mind...differences should be celebrated!-->this is the real humanist message that you continue to lack in your reasoning)

    only with this reasoning can you promote your agenda of peace...otherwise you are just blowing horns and it seems... nobody really wants to litsen
    cheers
     
  17. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    Why is it that when I object to Vijaydeep Singh's comments calling for destruction of Hinduism I receive 2 infractions. Yet here you are yet again, personally attacking my character as something about a plastic shoelace, and you will, again, not even receive any comment from moderators?


    I converted into Sikhism through the Khalistani communities. The version of events which I learned, the Gurbani which I learned from native Punjabis was all colored with this bias. As I became more and more estranged from this community due to acts of violence and ostracism which I did personally witness, and begin to study the doubts and questions that I had, yes, in fact, I did see that there was more than one side to the story. These are MY experiences. They shape and color MY interpretations and views. Why is your hostility to Hinduism so great that all you can do is defend comments calling for destruction of Hinduism and attack the validity of MY personal views? Sikhs are a different sect within Hinduism according to my understanding. So, just like Nirmalas are different from Nihangs. We call one Nirmala, and the other Nihang, we know they are different but we also know they are "Sikhs." In the same way do I use the terms Hindu and Sikh. One can't erase the past 100 years of sectarian divide between the two communities in the name of some pretended humanism. Nonetheless, I have already articulated the sanatan viewpoint which sees the two as more similar than different. Those posts were deleted. If your name is Sinister, and my name is Harjas I fail to see how acknowledging our individuality means we can have no commonality.

    This is the error of modern Sikhism. Because of the Tat Khalsa reform, the Sikh identity is based on REJECTION of any association with Hinduism, despite the fact that impartial scholars cannot fail to acknowledge the overwhelming similarity of philosophical and spiritual teaching shared between them. As anyone can plainly see Buddhism retains it's individuality while yet acknowledging it's sanatan philosophical origins. For some hysterical reason Sikhs can't do that. And so discussions resort to personal character attacks, deletions, special TOS, infractions and all forms of prejudice against the unpopular opinion of actually SUPPORTING a sanatan viewpoint. And interpreting that "individual's right and freedom to express a (hated) opinion" as some kind of THREAT to the sovereignty of the independant Sikh identity.

    As if the viewpoint alone were a threat to Sikh identity, which would kick in that "By any means necessary to protect the Panth venom." I do suppose there are people who I formerly called "brother" and "sister" who think even I should be killed for voicing these opinions. And I find that thought to be a pitifully sad commentary as a convert to a "religion." Don't you think that's a sad understanding to come to for a convert? Or, I suppose as you said, it isn't even worth the end of your shoelace.




    I am not pretending to be some humanitarian as you prefer to ridicule. I simply do not see India as attacking and torturing Sikhs as was true during time of Gallughara. So 25 years later, when the Khalistani version of events promotes this belief with articles from Sikh "human rights" organizations making it seem like commonplace, a convert raised in the west will not have any other basis of experience to derive a separate opinion.

    As I talked to more NON-Sikh people about life in India, it began to be a factor of doubt, since people were telling a different experience, one of basically, peace. So if India is currently at peace with it's Sikhs, why aren't Sikhs taking this golden opportunity to try and heal some of these divisions and prevent them ever happening again? Why instead are there militant shaheedi smagams, nagar kirtans with Babbar Khalsa, and (I have heard with my own ears) praise for Air India 182 bombing with glorification of Ajaib Singh Bagri?


    Now, I don't think it takes a humanitarian to start unraveling a faith and trust in that. I was exposed to and educated on a very extremist version of Sikhi. For some years I believed wholeheartedly this was true. I met former militants. I know people who were tortured and scarred by Punjab Police. And if the Gallughara were continuing, I would continue to support Sikhs against human rights violations.

    BUT,

    it isn't continuing. What is continuing is militant agitation and collaboration with Pakistan. Why shouldn't I question? Should I watch people get beaten in Gurdwaras over militant politics and ignore it as just another hardluck day for someone? Should I watch the teenagers of my best friends start making militant shaheed posters and paint themselves pointing guns at people and somehow think this is right?

    And above all....


    Can anyone please give me a valid and believable reason WHY I personally, should harbor hostility toward Hindu people and Hindu religion? Why should I wish to harm or target the Indian state and promote Khalistan Zindabad, Pakistan Zindabad?

    Why would anyone truly questioning continue to believe in such drivel? What does Gurbani say? As I interpret it, Gurbani supports sanatana Dharam. So why shouldn't I? I mean just look at the hostile reactions I'm getting simply for changing my views. It's craziness. Do I love Gursikhi? yes! Do I love Guruji? Yes! Do I love Sikh people? Yes! But I don't have to blindly support the wrong things. So why in the world do you all of a sudden hate me as a person who came to a different understanding based on my different experiences? That will always remain a mystery, and yes, it also colors my perception of Sikhs and Sikhism. I will never understand the ostracism of a person in the name of "defending the faith" who is sincerely trying to believe what's right. Forget about Hindus for a moment. How and when did I become everyone's enemy? That is something I will probably never accept or understand.
     
  18. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Re: Misrepresentation of Gurbani and the Sikh religion by vested interets

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji,

    The marginalization of the Sikh community in Punjabi has happened in leaps and bounds.
    The formation of Haryana which was part of Punjab has robbed the Sikhs' economic heritage. All kinds of political tactics are eroding away the power of the once politically stable sikhs. First, Punjab got divided during the formation of Pakistan and now the Hindus take away a major portion of Punjab by forming Haryana.

    Today the sikhs are practically nobodies in India, less recruitments of sikhs in army and police are accepted. I won't be surprised when SGPC looses control of Sri Harmandir Sahib to the government of majority hindus. Imagine printing rights removed from Akali Sikhs into the hands of the Hindus. A complete distortion will start. Sikhism will be no more.

    Harjas Ji, do you want that ?
    Ask yourself, you were attracted to Sikhism thru the Khalistani movements. That's because you yourself are a self motivated individual who wants to fight for a just cause. What swayed you away from your goal ?

    Sikhs are not filled with hatred towards the Hindus. They have been marginalized and will do anything to protect their children s' homeland. Ask yourself, do you want to be a part of a community who will loose nothing by looting Sikhs' rightful share to survive side by side with the Hindus? The Hindus are more powerful than any community in India. When the Muslims in India have been turned to submit to Hindu supremacy, what chance does Sikhism stand against the Hindus.

    Do you want to witness Sikhism erased before your very own eyes ? It can happen - if there were 20 Harjas Kaur Khalsa clones around. It will definitely happen.
     
  19. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    I am well familiar with the grievances of the Akali Dal Morcha of the 1970's and 80's, and the bitter loss of Sikh sovereignty slowly eroded over time following conquest of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's empire, diverting water resources to Haryana, loss of Chandigarh, split of Punjab during partition, etc. These are political issues that had as much to do with Muslim Pakistan as Hindu India, and for all intents and purposes are political issues. Nonetheless, the Punjab following partition became one of the wealthiest and most productive states in India, with one of the highest standards of living. Do you dispute this? Prior to the Akali Dal agitation and the Bhindranwale campaign which led to armed conflict, the atrociously inexcusable attack on Harmandir Sahib, followed by what the Indian government feared most and actually precipitated, declaration of independant Khalistan and led to such genocidal suppression by the gallughara, which by all accounts was largely Sikh on Sikh violence masterminded by the evil and deplorable Sikh, KPS Gil.

    In none of these relevant analyses does the sloganeering of the Akali Dal or Bhindranwale of this being a Sikh versus Hindu movement seriously apply. That's just a sloganeering tactic of politicians to divide along communal lines by fostering communal hatreds and jealousies and distrust. NOTHING here is spiritual. And hence, nothing here is bound to accurately reflect truth, nor a just outcome. There's far too much sectarian and communal self-interest involved in these essentially "leadership" issues, which are tanatmount to decrying injustice over simple matters which every state in the Indian union also has to undergo, with even less wealth and success that Punjab had, but is rapidly losing now. So in hindsight, all the aggravation, all the agitations, all the militancy did was precipitate even greater devastating political and economic and social losses, not too mention incalculable and nearly irreparable harm in injustice to innocents precipitated by the gallughara.

    SEEING AS THIS WAS SUCH A FOOLISHLY UNWISE COURSE TO FOLLOW, WHY DO SIKHS CONTINUE TO PUBLICALLY SUPPORT IT AND EVEN PROMOTE IT'S CONTINUATION IN THE PRESENT? WHAT WOULD BE THE LOGICAL OUTCOME OF CONTINUED AGITATIONS AND SEPARATISM?


    This is an utter lie. And it is extremist talk. If SGPC loses control of Sikhism it will be due to their own corruptions which Punjabis can barely tolerate themselves, and not from some Indian government take over. Moreover, SGPC is a relatively recent innovation which seems to have usurped control over Sikh institutions. It never before existed in history, so why are we according so much inviolability to it now? All SGPC has done as an institution is erode and deny and ban the historical sanatan character of Gursikhi. Rather than seeing sanatana Sikhism as some destruction of Tat Khalsa Ideology, I see it as a rebirth of the original Sikhism of tolerance, unity, and Indic heritage. If the SGPC falls, as it should, and also the Akali Nihangs should be restored the honor of being the 5th Takhat, which was falsely politically handed over to Damdami Taksal against all historical precedent, so it can be acknowledged the majority view within Sikhism is sanatan. As sanatan Dharma Sikhs are the original, it is no loss of anything except the alienated extremism of the British Khalsa which took control over Sikh institutions and started this entire anti-Hindu, anti-India, pro-Khalistan mess of agitations and grievances.

    I mean seriously every Sikh Guru was married according to Hindu rites associated with Khatri caste. Sikhs never historically even had an anand karaj, which is now alleged to be one of the grievances, and justification for Simranjit Singh Mann to shout "Pakistan Zindabad." People, you are being manipulated to support extremist interests which are dividing the unity and harmony of India. These are contrived and manipulated politics. As to the language of Hindi debate versus Punjabi. Let me ask now, what do majority of Sikhs speak in diaspora? They speak English. Their children speak English and are losing fluency in Punjabi. Is this because of some ridiculous brahmin conspiracy to degrade and destroy Sikhs? No! It is the language of custom and success in the lands Punjabi Sikhs have migrated to. LIKEWISE, majority of Punjabi Sikhs are speaking the language of Bollywood, universities, economics and business... and that happens to be Hindi.

    These are not reflections of prejudice destroying a minority culture. They are reflections of lack of reasonable analysis and failing that, reasonable solutions will not be found. The foolishness that such extremist positions must be taken as some grievance or justification of agitation and secession against the Indian state is hysterical propaganda. It will only lead to the Sikh community remaining estranged and promoting the violent extremism of the past which EVERYONE wants to see finally end.



    I was not attracted to Khalistani movements. When I returned to Sikhism as I had been exposed to it in my youth through 3HO, the Sikhism around me happened to belong to former militant communities, and hence colored with the sense of grievance and injustice, as if caught in a time warp to 1984. Of course I will support against injustice. But it slowly dawned on me that the Sikhs weren't anywhere near being "destroyed" or even "targeted." They are among the wealthiest and most successful communities in diaspora. And no one can account for where all the funds for fund-raising efforts have gone, but after 9-11, and the crackdown on jihadi communities using charities to funnel funds to militants, it behooves every Sikh to watch where his donations are going, lest they be traced to bomb explosions in Jaipur. This is the furthest thing from a just cause imaginable. I simply stopped believing the hype. It certainly didn't match the facts. Not when Sikh trucking industries affiliated with Gurdwara committees are indicted as drug and arms running operations.

    Is there a war going on in India that we should know about? Because the last I checked, Sikhs had every right of citizenship in India. But any community supporting and praising illegal activities, namely terrorist violence against the Indian state will necessarily run into some prejudice. So the question arises, is mainstream Sikhism as a "minority" community continuing to support on-going Sikh militancy, terrorist operations and formation of independant Khalistan? And if we are not, why do we turn a blind eye to such militance in our communities as if it were normal and justified? Because these are the kinds of things that lead to marginalization of minority communities in ANY country.


    Sikhs are not marginalized anywhere. Certainly not in America and Canada, Britain and Punjab where they are racial and ethnic minorities and yet have tremendous business wealth and even growing political clout. They remain the majority of the armed services in Bharat, although a 20 year militancy has not failed to create suspicion among the officer ranks which did not exist prior to 1984. So is this an act of prejudice on part of Indian "Hindus?" Or caution on part of Indian government intelligence services? After all, loyalty is the first prerequisite of any soldier in any country. Ask yourself what the fundamentalist Khalsa Sikh image is portraying to India as a nation, and think of former Jathedar Vedanti's pro-Khalistan speech in New York while shrouded with Khalistan Nation flags and seen next to Sant Bhindranwale's portrait in Harmandir Sahib. Think of hysterical Simranjit Singh Mann seen flanked by Pakistani flags and courting pro-Pakistani politics. And then ask yourself honestly if the backlash of bad attitude against Sikhs in India has something to do with actions among institutional Sikh leadership portraying Sikhs as essentially dangerous, treasonaous and pro-terrorism. Because when the Sikhs themselves, from the leadership down begin promoting peace, unity, prosperity and success, the reception will also change.

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    Are these tactics protecting and enhancing the identity of Sikhism within India?


    They will do anything to protect their children's homeland? Veerji, India is the Sikh children's homeland. Are you suggesting resurgent militancy aggrieved against the Indian state and supporting militants in Pakistan is some kind of support for the Sikh children's homeland? And are you suggesting that place is something fictional like "Khalistan?" Because that will surely set off alarm bells with Indian intelligence as a community agitating for the right to secede and form a separatist state. Just look what recently happened in Georgia for agitating against Russia. They got invaded by Russia. Can't you see instead of preserving the Sikh identity, these are the political factors that will actually invite another gallughara backlash?

    Sikhs rightful share... side by side with Hindus? Not if you listen to the Khalistani communities rhetoric which is literally talking about killing Hindus, and killing Sikhs who support sanatan Dharma... in the false name of preserving something about Sikh spirituality.

    Does an SPN moderator actually believe that I am some kind of threat to the survival of Sikh identity? And what on earth does that imply? Will killing me protect Sikhism from destruction veer ji? Is that the logical conclusion of what you claim? My very beliefs have the power to erase Sikhism and hence, "destroy it?" Only an extremist thinks that beliefs and philosophies have the power to destroy. Yes, send your Khalistani hit squads to kill some middle-aged lady with an opinion before she strikes dead the heart of Khalsa Sikhism. It's laughable how weak you really believe Sikhism is. This would all be completely humorous if it weren't so sadly true that even "mainstream" Sikhs think killing people with a different belief is some kind of spiritual self-preservation.

    How can I continue to support extremist ideologies of fundamentalist paranoia within Sikhism which target other human beings with different beliefs for murder? It's a sickening idea of spiritual teaching. And I repudiate it completely. If Sikhs want to kill me, I would rather die than blindly support such corruptions of spiritual teaching. Too bad the Sikh community can't have openness and honesty and enough tolerance to simply live and let live. When you cannot support such things as a community, stop crying about receiving a backlash of prejudice and fear for acting badly, waving swords, glorifying militants, terrorists and murderers alike as if everything were justified because it is pro-Sikh self-interest. God is not unjust like that. Karma is perfect law. Do right, and you will thrive and be protected. Harm others, and you yourselves will be harmed. Golden rule.


    Peace. Unity. Love. Om Shanti. Sat Shri Akal Ji.
     
  20. Sinister

    Sinister
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    you talk of lack of reasonable analysis? :rofl!!:


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    Offering Food to Krishna | Krishna.com

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    honestly:
    LONG LIVE THE ENLIGHTENED "BRITISH KHALSA"

    harjas ji, chill, and cut back on the catharsis
    +you have mastered the role of victimization..and its getting boring!

    remember, there exist idiots on both sides of the fence.
    what should we embrace; sikhism and hinduism simultaneously? or rationality?

    cheers
     
  21. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    Yes, many ancient practices led to nothing positive at all. And many ancient practices have even become the basis of modern medicine. But to give all credit to Western culture is self-hatred and short sighted. And your complete disregard of Hinduism and portrayal of anything Hindu in the most negative light imaginable is really self-hatred, after all, who are the majority of "Sikhs" descended from?


    WHO TAUGHT YOU TO HATE YOURSELVES?


    How about respect and tolerance for starters? That usually makes for healthy societies. Germany was one of the most enlightened nations. I have never seen a photo of a German dressed as a yogi bathing in cow urine. But I have seen photos of Nazis drenching their boots in human gore. So enlightenment is sometimes not so enlightened, especially when it's based on intolerance of different human races and cultures and propagandistic denigration against anyone non-European.

    As long as radical extremist Sikhs continue to justify murder and mainstream Sikhs on this forum continue to propagandize the hated inferiority and evil of Hinduism, such violence within Sikhism will continue to find false justifications. Call that victimization if you like. Victims don't speak out in self-defense.

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    Yes, sadly extremism comes in all shapes and sizes and religious varieties. What is pertinent to this forum is what pertains to Sikh philosophy, and why Sikh communities openly promote, advocate and tolerate hate... in the name of defense of Sikhism? Because that's just the language of extremism, and it does in fact promote violence.

    So why does it always come down to a Sikh versus Hindu issue? Why is there no balance and unity? Aren't Sikhs and Hindus from the same country? From the same families? share the same history? What the hell? Why do Sikhs hate Hindus? It's ridiculous. Two wrongs don't make a right, that only makes a justification of wrong.

    The British Skin heads hate you more than you hate Hindus. Learn some self-respect.
     

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