☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Gurmat Vichaar
Gurmat Vichar - Discussions
Miracles In Sri Guru Granth Sahib
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pk70" data-source="post: 80842" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p><strong>Re: Miracles in Guru Granth Sahib Ji</strong></p><p></p><p>Harjas kaur khalsa Quote</p><p> <em><span style="color: darkred">Gurbani is in poetry form, it should not be read and understood as verse, there are symbols, metaphors and references.</span></em> </p><p> You are entitled to your viewpoint. And I take it you have never had an experience with a ghost or much experience with dying people. If you had, you would not be so quick to dismiss as "nonsense" powerful symbolic realities</p><p> <strong>My Respected Bhainji,</strong></p><p> <strong>My older brother died in my hands, the death was violent. What more experience do I need?</strong></p><p> <strong> In reality,there are no special employees of GOD as per Hindu mythology, as there is no witness of it as you know Experience of God is witnessed in Gurbani</strong></p><p> . I say symbolic because these things are really quite beyond the fullness of human understanding, and so we speak in terms of this thing being like that thing which we can relate to. People tend to speak in terms of likes, similarities, symbolism. Just because a concept is symbolically richer and more powerful than the human mind can wrap a concept around doesn't by any means reflect that the symbolism is fake, nonsense or dismissable.</p><p> <strong>If they are symbols, then they do not exist, death occurs, soul leaves the body alone into the SKY as per Guru Nanak. Nonesense because they are shown as coming specially to take soul from the body, Gurbani clarifies that soul leaves body alone.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong>. I would suggest you are interpreting Gurbani according to the limitations of the scientific material realm, which has no faith in what it can't measure or see and disbelieves what it can't touch, and thus scoffs at any other reality than this world, or the certainty of the body-corpse at death</p><p> <strong>My understanding of Gurbani is not based on British influence( as you state quite often) or scientific material realm but the message of Guru Ji. Guru ji doesn’t want people to get into any kind of ritualism, supernatural fears, practice hypocrisy in view of religion, so why would he advocate such things which put fears in the minds of people. He sets his followers free of all imaginative fears, reduced caste system, Sati, mistreatment of women or poor/backward considered people. It becomes unimaginable for me to agree that Guru ji follow what brought nothing but disunity, fears and exploitation of the commoners. As I told you earlier, a friend of mine who happens to be Native American, I asked him last week” Buddy what has happened to your hair?’ He replied” Singh, I offered them to one of my dead relative”</strong></p><p> <strong>I didn’t comment. Did I believe what he said? No, How a dead can get his hair? For him it is very sacred, I respect that. Is it a truth or not? I am not interested in it all, I just got one thing, my buddy has a lot of respect for that dead person, and humbly I accept that act of offering. Going deep into such things, taking them as factual [/FONT]</strong><strong>phenomena is like enslaving mind with unnecessary traditions or beliefs. Even questioning his act is nonsense.</strong> .</p><p></p><p> The fact that some scientists have done credible research into the afterlife and communications with the dead seems not to impress you as you don't even investigate the "possibility" that Gurbani is telling you something true without discrediting outright that it is poetic exaggeration, or fabrication in the form of mere metaphor.</p><p> <strong>Gurubani’s major purpose is to take masses to the Original Source-The Creator, to get involve HIM unconditionally and to live by giving preference HIM to rest of the world, literally to live in HIS love. Why to take detour when straight path is shown and lights are on.</strong></p><p><strong></strong>An avatar by definition doesn't have to come into this sansaar, but does so in order to reach God's Jyot into the darkness to liberate stuck souls. An avatar is like a Guru, without whom we could not come close to God. And I qualify that I am not saying anywhere in Gurbani it says for Sikh to follow or worship previous avatars.</p><p> <strong>Any one who gets inflicted with Maya disqualifies himself or herself to be worthy of special respect, Gurbani talks about them, never verifies about their true existence or non existence because the purpose of Gurbani is to lead persons to HIM but not to confuse them over the past. In HIS Sargun Sroop, all are considered His form not selected one like Hindu Avtaras. For Hindus they were GODS, I respect that but for Sikhs they carry no weight.</strong></p><p> Nowhere in Gurbani does it say to worship Guru. But Gurbani says avatars were a manifestation (sargun presence) of the God in past ages for the purpose of uplifting humanity, and that even these have fallen into Maya. Therefore in the Kalyug Guruji gives us the Naam which originates in the Shabad which comes from the sound-current of the Naad which is not even from this level of materiality of the sansaaric world. The Naad, the Shabad and the Naam vibrate at a frequency beyond our dimensionality and emanate from the nirgun Parabrahm. The Naam can't fall under corruption as did devas or avataras from past ages, and we are enjoined to worship only the Vaheguru. But this isn't the same thing as saying that heavens, hells, devas, asuras, avataras are fake and unreal or silly stories for the superstitious. Nowhere does Gurbani say that.</p><p> <strong>First of all, let me disagree with you on Naam concept, using it as Naad( though Naad also stands Kirtan) then making it more difficult to understand, has been practice of Yogis, Brahmins, Guru ji doesn’t keep his views on it as esoteric but turn them into exoteric by simplifying them for all. </strong><strong>Nam</strong><strong> is not experienced through vibrations, it is lived in HIS love” JIN KE CHOLE RATHRE KANT TINA KE PAAS” no vibration etc. </strong><strong>Nam</strong><strong> being given by some people to others is also a Brahmin ritual; if it is practiced by Sikhs, it goes against Gurmat, Guru Ji shows HIM within us, how? By having a complete surrender of”I ness”, in that state of mind, something blossoms, visible presence of HIM, Why Guru ji says” mehl meh baithe APPAR APPAAR”? Think about it. Living Gurbani is true Sikhi, rest is just “shingar/decoration” never guarantees of any thing.</strong></p><p> It says they exist.</p><p> <span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਖਰ ਮਹਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਧਾਰੇ </span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">akhar mehi thribhavan prabh dhhaarae ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">In the Word, God established the three worlds. </span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><strong><span style="color: black">It means, all three world were created as per HIS Ordinance</span></strong><span style="color: purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਖਰ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ </span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">akhar kar kar baedh beechaarae ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">Created from the Word, the Vedas are contemplated. </span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><strong><span style="color: black">AS per His Hukam, through a language(word) Vedas were read and discussed</span></strong><span style="color: black"></span></p><p><span style="color: black"></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਖਰ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ </span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: black"> </span></p><p><span style="color: black"></span><span style="color: purple">akhar saasathr sinmrith puraanaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">From the Word, came the Shaastras, Simritees and Puraanas. </span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><strong><span style="color: black">Here again simrati and Puranas were also expression of HIS ordinance</span></strong><span style="color: black"></span></p><p><span style="color: black"></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਖਰ ਨਾਦ ਕਥਨ ਵਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਾ </span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">akhar naadh kathhan vakhyaanaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">From the Word, came the sound current of the Naad, speeches and explanations. </span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><strong><span style="color: black">As per His ordinance their discussion and keertan occured</span></strong><span style="color: black"></span></p><p><span style="color: black"></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਖਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਭੈ ਭਰਮਾ </span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">akhar mukath jugath bhai bharamaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">From the Word, comes the way of liberation from fear and doubt. </span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><strong><span style="color: black">It is also His Ordinance to be liberated from fears and illusions of the world</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: black"></span></strong><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਖਰ ਕਰਮ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ </span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">akhar karam kirath such dhharamaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">From the Word, come religious rituals, karma, sacredness and Dharma. </span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><strong><span style="color: black">It is again because of His Ordinance that some walk on true path, here same idea goes on</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: black"></span></strong><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਮਾਨ ਅਖਰ ਹੈ ਜੇਤਾ </span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">dhrisattimaan akhar hai jaethaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">In the visible universe, the Word is seen.</span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><strong><span style="color: black">Akhar hai jeta= all the world, dhristiman= visible, means all this visible world is His Sargun Sroop, think about the following Vaak</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: black"></span></strong><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਨਿਰਲੇਪਾ </span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੫੪</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">naanak paarabreham niralaepaa ||54||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">O Nanak, the Supreme Lord God remains unattached and untouched. ||54||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">~SGGS Ji p. 261</span></p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">BUT Nanak says HE remains beyond it, untouched un attached</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: black">[/FONT]</span></strong> <strong><span style="color: black">What is dominance idea? HIM, Guru ji is taking us to HIM by talking about all other things, nothing is verified in any way but idea is built on all known stuff cemented with HIS ordinance. So nothing happens beyond His Hukam</span></strong></p><p> Quote:</p><p> <em><span style="color: darkred">Guru shows the real way out of this cycle of birth and death, Guru gives HIS NAAM known as AMBROSIAL NECTOR.</span></em> </p><p> What exactly is the ambrosial nectar of Naam? Is it something material like sugar water? </p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">NO it is not like that. It is pure as amrit word is used to convey piousness. It is living in HIS love as it sows the seeds of Harmony by eliminating conflicts.</span></strong></p><p> Is it simply chanting in a meditative state? </p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">No, it is again embracing His Ordinance suitable or not suitable, meditate is nothing then an effort to overcome other distractions. It brings state of mind” ja ja dekha tah tah tu hai”</span></strong></p><p> Is it listening to kirtan or reading Gurbani?</p><p> <strong>No, that is also to settle mind on HIM since it is all about HIM,</strong></p><p> What is Naam? Is it something in this world which is perceivable?</p><p> <strong>Naam is HIM, HIS presence, Understanding of His Ordinance. Yes you can perceive if mind is taken to that state of mind with the help of Guru bachan. </strong></p><p> Or is it also another form of poetic license to describe fiction and metaphor?</p><p> <strong>No, it is the only way out to address HIM to the people who understand through a language only. Symbolic? Yes in a way, it is all about HIM. There is no special thing to utter, only attention on HIM is necessary but it should be undivided, no need to practice anything since it is an experience, to have it, first you have to over come which hinders achieving that state of mind. Nam should not be used as” a license to do any thing” because it is some thing you get downed in being zeroed in”I-ness”</strong></p><p> Where exactly do our discrediting of teachings from Gurbani end, and with what concepts do they begin? </p><p> <strong>Gurbani is beyond discrediting, if some try, they don’t know what they are doing, there is only one concept of Gurbani – taking human beings back to Him by over coming all the trash society starts putting in head since birth which, in fact, remains useless in pursuit of liberation.” Munn pardessya Ghare aa” ( ghre=home)advice is repeated, what is that, aren’t we home all the time? No we are not, we follow our mind influenced by that trash, then wander aimlessly never to realize HIM, Guru ji says, no, within, you will find HIM, he answers also why we cannot see HIM within, really gives a detail of the obstacles and advises us first to fall in love with HIM. No one can fall in love with Him if mind is divided, period. If a Bus is chattered to </strong><strong>San Francisco</strong><strong> and the other one is to L.A, and while sitting in Bus chartered to </strong><strong>L.A.</strong><strong> I think I am going to </strong><strong>San Francisco</strong><strong>, it is my fault not the bus </strong></p><p> It doesn't seem Gurbani has made that distinction and said, believe in these things, but disregard as mere fiction these others.</p><p> <strong>Gurbani supersedes all prevailed talks’ stories by simply taking the mind into HIS refuge. Let me say in different way. You have pain, there is known medicine , you[/FONT]</strong><strong> take it but pain remains after subsiding for some time, then you get another medicine, it totally eliminates the pain, why would you care about the other known medicine any way? Literally it was useless. Because it was available there, does it mean it was real medicine? Sikh doesn’t give weight on any prevailed, myths, real things or whatever, he/she just follow none but Guru, literally never feels important to talk about their existence or not. If so, isn’t it waste of time to wrangle over things that were not addressed as important to follow</strong>.</p><p> That is why I disregard that figurative approach to reading Gurbani. When I read Gurbani, I take it to mean that Guru says it means exactly what it says, and not as what I myself accept or reject as implausible or fake</p><p> <strong>I appreciate that; however, the way you quote Gurbani, it sounds contrary to Guru message, let me give example You wrote in your post” GOD TAKES BIRTH”</strong></p><p> <strong>GURU JI SAYS” AJONI, SWAMBH”” AKAAL”, how you can justify you are going by Guru Message. His Sargun Sroop is around us, we can respect that but it is His Nirgun Sroop, Truth Seekers long for. Living among His Sargun sroop, Satguru Nanak feels pains of separation from HIM, why? Answer is simple, His sargun sroop also acts like Maya, it is only His Nirgun sroop that fills mind with unending happiness, something lovable to merge with.</strong></p><p>. Again, any comments or story about ghosts or jams would fail to be persuasive. At some point you will have the experience, and at that time, words won't even be necessary.</p><p> <strong>My purpose of following Gurbani is to live it, though tough it is, many temptations, ego and anger are so strong that make me fall repeatedly but living Gurbani has become so attractive to me that falls actually help me to get stronger, in this pursuit, Jama, ghost etc cease to <u>exist. </u></strong></p><p> <strong></strong></p><p><strong>[/FONT]</strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pk70, post: 80842, member: 5889"] [b]Re: Miracles in Guru Granth Sahib Ji[/b] Harjas kaur khalsa Quote [I][COLOR=darkred]Gurbani is in poetry form, it should not be read and understood as verse, there are symbols, metaphors and references.[/COLOR][/I] You are entitled to your viewpoint. And I take it you have never had an experience with a ghost or much experience with dying people. If you had, you would not be so quick to dismiss as "nonsense" powerful symbolic realities [B]My Respected Bhainji,[/B] [B]My older brother died in my hands, the death was violent. What more experience do I need?[/B] [B] In reality,there are no special employees of GOD as per Hindu mythology, as there is no witness of it as you know Experience of God is witnessed in Gurbani[/B] . I say symbolic because these things are really quite beyond the fullness of human understanding, and so we speak in terms of this thing being like that thing which we can relate to. People tend to speak in terms of likes, similarities, symbolism. Just because a concept is symbolically richer and more powerful than the human mind can wrap a concept around doesn't by any means reflect that the symbolism is fake, nonsense or dismissable. [B]If they are symbols, then they do not exist, death occurs, soul leaves the body alone into the SKY as per Guru Nanak. Nonesense because they are shown as coming specially to take soul from the body, Gurbani clarifies that soul leaves body alone. [/B]. I would suggest you are interpreting Gurbani according to the limitations of the scientific material realm, which has no faith in what it can't measure or see and disbelieves what it can't touch, and thus scoffs at any other reality than this world, or the certainty of the body-corpse at death [B]My understanding of Gurbani is not based on British influence( as you state quite often) or scientific material realm but the message of Guru Ji. Guru ji doesn’t want people to get into any kind of ritualism, supernatural fears, practice hypocrisy in view of religion, so why would he advocate such things which put fears in the minds of people. He sets his followers free of all imaginative fears, reduced caste system, Sati, mistreatment of women or poor/backward considered people. It becomes unimaginable for me to agree that Guru ji follow what brought nothing but disunity, fears and exploitation of the commoners. As I told you earlier, a friend of mine who happens to be Native American, I asked him last week” Buddy what has happened to your hair?’ He replied” Singh, I offered them to one of my dead relative”[/B] [B]I didn’t comment. Did I believe what he said? No, How a dead can get his hair? For him it is very sacred, I respect that. Is it a truth or not? I am not interested in it all, I just got one thing, my buddy has a lot of respect for that dead person, and humbly I accept that act of offering. Going deep into such things, taking them as factual [/FONT][/B][B]phenomena is like enslaving mind with unnecessary traditions or beliefs. Even questioning his act is nonsense.[/B] . The fact that some scientists have done credible research into the afterlife and communications with the dead seems not to impress you as you don't even investigate the "possibility" that Gurbani is telling you something true without discrediting outright that it is poetic exaggeration, or fabrication in the form of mere metaphor. [B]Gurubani’s major purpose is to take masses to the Original Source-The Creator, to get involve HIM unconditionally and to live by giving preference HIM to rest of the world, literally to live in HIS love. Why to take detour when straight path is shown and lights are on. [/B]An avatar by definition doesn't have to come into this sansaar, but does so in order to reach God's Jyot into the darkness to liberate stuck souls. An avatar is like a Guru, without whom we could not come close to God. And I qualify that I am not saying anywhere in Gurbani it says for Sikh to follow or worship previous avatars. [B]Any one who gets inflicted with Maya disqualifies himself or herself to be worthy of special respect, Gurbani talks about them, never verifies about their true existence or non existence because the purpose of Gurbani is to lead persons to HIM but not to confuse them over the past. In HIS Sargun Sroop, all are considered His form not selected one like Hindu Avtaras. For Hindus they were GODS, I respect that but for Sikhs they carry no weight.[/B] Nowhere in Gurbani does it say to worship Guru. But Gurbani says avatars were a manifestation (sargun presence) of the God in past ages for the purpose of uplifting humanity, and that even these have fallen into Maya. Therefore in the Kalyug Guruji gives us the Naam which originates in the Shabad which comes from the sound-current of the Naad which is not even from this level of materiality of the sansaaric world. The Naad, the Shabad and the Naam vibrate at a frequency beyond our dimensionality and emanate from the nirgun Parabrahm. The Naam can't fall under corruption as did devas or avataras from past ages, and we are enjoined to worship only the Vaheguru. But this isn't the same thing as saying that heavens, hells, devas, asuras, avataras are fake and unreal or silly stories for the superstitious. Nowhere does Gurbani say that. [B]First of all, let me disagree with you on Naam concept, using it as Naad( though Naad also stands Kirtan) then making it more difficult to understand, has been practice of Yogis, Brahmins, Guru ji doesn’t keep his views on it as esoteric but turn them into exoteric by simplifying them for all. [/B][B]Nam[/B][B] is not experienced through vibrations, it is lived in HIS love” JIN KE CHOLE RATHRE KANT TINA KE PAAS” no vibration etc. [/B][B]Nam[/B][B] being given by some people to others is also a Brahmin ritual; if it is practiced by Sikhs, it goes against Gurmat, Guru Ji shows HIM within us, how? By having a complete surrender of”I ness”, in that state of mind, something blossoms, visible presence of HIM, Why Guru ji says” mehl meh baithe APPAR APPAAR”? Think about it. Living Gurbani is true Sikhi, rest is just “shingar/decoration” never guarantees of any thing.[/B] It says they exist. [COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਅਖਰ ਮਹਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਧਾਰੇ [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] akhar mehi thribhavan prabh dhhaarae || In the Word, God established the three worlds. [/COLOR][B][COLOR=black]It means, all three world were created as per HIS Ordinance[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=purple] [/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਅਖਰ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] akhar kar kar baedh beechaarae || Created from the Word, the Vedas are contemplated. [/COLOR][B][COLOR=black]AS per His Hukam, through a language(word) Vedas were read and discussed[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਅਖਰ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][COLOR=purple]akhar saasathr sinmrith puraanaa || From the Word, came the Shaastras, Simritees and Puraanas. [/COLOR][B][COLOR=black]Here again simrati and Puranas were also expression of HIS ordinance[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਅਖਰ ਨਾਦ ਕਥਨ ਵਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਾ [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] akhar naadh kathhan vakhyaanaa || From the Word, came the sound current of the Naad, speeches and explanations. [/COLOR][B][COLOR=black]As per His ordinance their discussion and keertan occured[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਅਖਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਭੈ ਭਰਮਾ [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] akhar mukath jugath bhai bharamaa || From the Word, comes the way of liberation from fear and doubt. [/COLOR][B][COLOR=black]It is also His Ordinance to be liberated from fears and illusions of the world [/COLOR][/B][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਅਖਰ ਕਰਮ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] akhar karam kirath such dhharamaa || From the Word, come religious rituals, karma, sacredness and Dharma. [/COLOR][B][COLOR=black]It is again because of His Ordinance that some walk on true path, here same idea goes on [/COLOR][/B][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਮਾਨ ਅਖਰ ਹੈ ਜੇਤਾ [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] dhrisattimaan akhar hai jaethaa || In the visible universe, the Word is seen. [/COLOR][B][COLOR=black]Akhar hai jeta= all the world, dhristiman= visible, means all this visible world is His Sargun Sroop, think about the following Vaak [/COLOR][/B][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਨਿਰਲੇਪਾ [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]੫੪[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] naanak paarabreham niralaepaa ||54|| O Nanak, the Supreme Lord God remains unattached and untouched. ||54|| ~SGGS Ji p. 261[/COLOR] [B][COLOR=black]BUT Nanak says HE remains beyond it, untouched un attached [/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=black]What is dominance idea? HIM, Guru ji is taking us to HIM by talking about all other things, nothing is verified in any way but idea is built on all known stuff cemented with HIS ordinance. So nothing happens beyond His Hukam[/COLOR][/B] Quote: [I][COLOR=darkred]Guru shows the real way out of this cycle of birth and death, Guru gives HIS NAAM known as AMBROSIAL NECTOR.[/COLOR][/I] What exactly is the ambrosial nectar of Naam? Is it something material like sugar water? [B][COLOR=black]NO it is not like that. It is pure as amrit word is used to convey piousness. It is living in HIS love as it sows the seeds of Harmony by eliminating conflicts.[/COLOR][/B] Is it simply chanting in a meditative state? [B][COLOR=black]No, it is again embracing His Ordinance suitable or not suitable, meditate is nothing then an effort to overcome other distractions. It brings state of mind” ja ja dekha tah tah tu hai”[/COLOR][/B] Is it listening to kirtan or reading Gurbani? [B]No, that is also to settle mind on HIM since it is all about HIM,[/B] What is Naam? Is it something in this world which is perceivable? [B]Naam is HIM, HIS presence, Understanding of His Ordinance. Yes you can perceive if mind is taken to that state of mind with the help of Guru bachan. [/B] Or is it also another form of poetic license to describe fiction and metaphor? [B]No, it is the only way out to address HIM to the people who understand through a language only. Symbolic? Yes in a way, it is all about HIM. There is no special thing to utter, only attention on HIM is necessary but it should be undivided, no need to practice anything since it is an experience, to have it, first you have to over come which hinders achieving that state of mind. Nam should not be used as” a license to do any thing” because it is some thing you get downed in being zeroed in”I-ness”[/B] Where exactly do our discrediting of teachings from Gurbani end, and with what concepts do they begin? [B]Gurbani is beyond discrediting, if some try, they don’t know what they are doing, there is only one concept of Gurbani – taking human beings back to Him by over coming all the trash society starts putting in head since birth which, in fact, remains useless in pursuit of liberation.” Munn pardessya Ghare aa” ( ghre=home)advice is repeated, what is that, aren’t we home all the time? No we are not, we follow our mind influenced by that trash, then wander aimlessly never to realize HIM, Guru ji says, no, within, you will find HIM, he answers also why we cannot see HIM within, really gives a detail of the obstacles and advises us first to fall in love with HIM. No one can fall in love with Him if mind is divided, period. If a Bus is chattered to [/B][B]San Francisco[/B][B] and the other one is to L.A, and while sitting in Bus chartered to [/B][B]L.A.[/B][B] I think I am going to [/B][B]San Francisco[/B][B], it is my fault not the bus [/B] It doesn't seem Gurbani has made that distinction and said, believe in these things, but disregard as mere fiction these others. [B]Gurbani supersedes all prevailed talks’ stories by simply taking the mind into HIS refuge. Let me say in different way. You have pain, there is known medicine , you[/FONT][/B][B] take it but pain remains after subsiding for some time, then you get another medicine, it totally eliminates the pain, why would you care about the other known medicine any way? Literally it was useless. Because it was available there, does it mean it was real medicine? Sikh doesn’t give weight on any prevailed, myths, real things or whatever, he/she just follow none but Guru, literally never feels important to talk about their existence or not. If so, isn’t it waste of time to wrangle over things that were not addressed as important to follow[/B]. That is why I disregard that figurative approach to reading Gurbani. When I read Gurbani, I take it to mean that Guru says it means exactly what it says, and not as what I myself accept or reject as implausible or fake [B]I appreciate that; however, the way you quote Gurbani, it sounds contrary to Guru message, let me give example You wrote in your post” GOD TAKES BIRTH”[/B] [B]GURU JI SAYS” AJONI, SWAMBH”” AKAAL”, how you can justify you are going by Guru Message. His Sargun Sroop is around us, we can respect that but it is His Nirgun Sroop, Truth Seekers long for. Living among His Sargun sroop, Satguru Nanak feels pains of separation from HIM, why? Answer is simple, His sargun sroop also acts like Maya, it is only His Nirgun sroop that fills mind with unending happiness, something lovable to merge with.[/B] . Again, any comments or story about ghosts or jams would fail to be persuasive. At some point you will have the experience, and at that time, words won't even be necessary. [B]My purpose of following Gurbani is to live it, though tough it is, many temptations, ego and anger are so strong that make me fall repeatedly but living Gurbani has become so attractive to me that falls actually help me to get stronger, in this pursuit, Jama, ghost etc cease to [U]exist. [/U][/B] [B] [/FONT][/B] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Gurmat Vichaar
Gurmat Vichar - Discussions
Miracles In Sri Guru Granth Sahib
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top