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Mathematics in Scripture?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by mattqatsi, May 17, 2010.

  1. mattqatsi

    mattqatsi
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    This might be a little hard to explain without giving an example, and I won't give one because it may seems like I'm trying to peddle my own Holy Text. I have given up googling, I can't seem to figure out any adequate search terms. I was wondering about any of the Holy Sikh Scriptures, I'm trying to work out a report (as well as work out my own beliefs) on mathematics hidden within religious texts. I'm not just talking about cool numbers here and there in the text and their meanings, but Holy Seals behind the words.

    I'm legitimately trying to get an answer, I'm sorry that the long explanation makes it look otherwise, please forgive me.

    Wow, this is hard to explain. I've found some mathematical impossibilities in a Passage from my faith and so I'm trying to figure out where else these appear. I'll just give an example without a name, sorry, this is frustrating to explain. This specific passage of 12 verses (ironically enough with a history of early/late manuscript legitimacy controversy) has

    1. 175 words (which comes out even when divided by 7, there are 25 sevens of words.)
    2. 98 Individual vocabulary words (14 sevens)
    3. 133 Individual forms of the words (19 sevens)

    --The language is alpha-numeric, which means each letter has a number attached to it. It's like A=1 B=2 C=3 etc. Each letter (and therefore each word) has a numeric value attached to it.--

    4. The numeric value of the whole passage is 103,663 (14,809 sevens)
    5. Numeric value of the 133 forms -> 89,663 (12,809 sevens)
    6. Out of the 133 forms, only 112 (16 sevens) occur once
    7. The 98 vocab words have 553 letters (79 sevens)
    8. 294 (42 sevens) of those 553 are vowels
    9. 259 (37 sevens) of those 553 are vowels
    10. Out of the 98 vocab words, 84 (12 sevens) are found in the rest of that book
    11. 14 (2 sevens) are only found in this specific passage
    12. Out of the 98 individual vocab words, 42 (6 sevens) are used by the key Leader of the faith during His Speech
    13. 56 (8 sevens) are not part of His vocabulary in this passage
    14. 56 words (8 sevens) are used in His Speech
    15. The rest of the passage has 119 words (17 sevens)
    <style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --> </style>
    The 175 words in the passage (25 sevens) split into three natural divisions
    [1.] V. 9-11 → 35 words (5 sevens)
    [2.] V. 12-18 → 105 words (15 sevens)
    [3.] V. 19-20 → 35 words (5 sevens)

    [2.]
    → [V. 12] → 14 words (2 sevens)
    → [V. 13-15] (up to speech) → 35 words (5 sevens)
    → [V. 15-18] (just the speech) → 56 words (8 sevens)

    Numeric Values
    103,663 (14,809 sevens)

    [V. 9-11] → 17,213 (2,459 sevens)
    [V. 12-20] → 86,450 (12,350 sevens)

    [9 → 11,705] (1,685 sevens)
    [10 → 5418] (774 sevens)
    [11 → 11,705] (1,685 sevens)

    [V.10]
    First word (ekeinos) → 98 (14 sevens)
    Last word (klaio) → 791 (113 sevens)
    Remaining → 4529 (647 sevens)

    133 Forms (19 sevens)
    When laid out alphabetically
    First word is 224 (32 sevens)
    Last word is 1134 (162 sevens)

    175 total words/numeric values split into 4 categories:
    Units (1 figure. i.e. '5')
    Tens (2 figures. i.e. '17')
    Hundreds (3 figures. i.e. '234')
    Thousands (4 figures. i.e. '1897')

    Two extremes (units/thousands) → 42 words (6 sevens)
    Two inside ones (tens/hundreds) → 133 words (19 sevens)

    Letters
    V. 9-12 → 35 words (5 sevens)
    14 (2 sevens) begin with a vowel
    21 (3 sevens) begin with consonant
    21 (3 sevens) end with vowel
    14 (2 sevens) end with consonant
    7 begin and end with a vowel
    84 (12 sevens) syllables

    Numeric Value of V. 9-12 → 17,213 (2,459 sevens)
    When laid out, grab every 7th value of these 35 words: [1,400] [386] [1,171] [1,247] [857]
    Adds to 5,061 (723 sevens)
    Only one is divisible by 7 (1,400 → 200 sevens)

    With the whole passage (175 words → 25 sevens) laid out, the values of every 25<sup>th</sup> word are [791] [21] [591] [1533] [21] [651] [1113]
    All but one are divisible by 7 (591)

    DONE
    This is not even half of the values that I have found, there are more for this one passage as well as similar results with many other passages in this Holy Book (The specific Book, not the full Holy Text)

    So my question is, has there ever been any research done on the mathematical inner workings of the different Sikh Scriptures? Either research like this or other mathematical analysis's (or however you spell the plural of analysis)?
     
    #1 mattqatsi, May 17, 2010
    Last edited: May 17, 2010
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  3. spnadmin

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    mattqatsi ji

    I cannot help you. Only can provide one tip. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib is written as a collection of musical compositions;; i.e, raags. For that reason alone it will and does have a mathematical structure, but not quite like what you are describing.

    Maybe...because I confess I don't know exactly what you are talking about, try googling "musical structure of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.
     
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  4. mattqatsi

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    Well since my beliefs are already out in the introduction thread, I'll say that this excerpt is from the Gospel of Mark. These last twelve verses, verses 9-20, are disputed in some Biblical circles. Some older manuscripts do not contain these last twelve, so the Divine Inspiration of them was called into question. What's funny and honestly pretty cool is that every time someone tries to attack the Bible with some "error" or some "contradiction," these apparent contradictions reveal a much much deeper hidden Truth. Seeking out the resolution of a contradiction sometimes, like this time, can prove that not only are two passages in agreement, it would be impossible for them to be written like that without Divine Guidance. (Quick example: People say that the Bible says the value of pi is exactly 3, which on the outside, surface interpretation, it does. But when you dig deeper, you'll find that we're given a number that works out to a value that is accurate to the 12th decimal. Pi wasn't even known to that degree until centuries later.)

    I get a little excited about this stuff, and I thought you guys might find that cool since you're one of the few other faiths that believes in a Living Word. I really like that shared belief, that we're not satisfied with a God we can read about, I can't tame this Deity.

    Anyways, I looked up the musical structure on google and I didn't really get what I was looking for. Do you know of any professional who you could refer me to?

    As to what I was talking about, these verses, as well as a few others, have a heptadic structure in the original written Greek. It's a sevenfold structure, everything is wrapped in sevens, everything is divisible by sevens: the amount of words, the types of words, the number of letters, the numerical values of the letters, the numerical values of the words, the numerical values of sections. Nearly everything is divisible by seven. To me, this shows divine inspiration.
    I mean, this is something that was written 2,000 years ago and the chance of the 34 different heptadic (sevenfold) features of this passage working out is calculated to be:
    7^34 = 54,116,956,037,952,111,668,959,660,849
    One million supercomputers, composing 400 million drafts per second, would require over 4 million years to complete that number.
    And that's only with 34 features, I'm going through a book right now (and learning Greek along the way) that claims to have found 75 different heptadic features in just these 12 verses.

    I should have chosen a less complex example, but this one still works. I was wondering if there was anything similar in the Sikh Scriptures since they're supposed to be another "living Scripture." (I'm not saying it isn't if there isn't, I'm just wondering if there's the same... mathematical wheels underneath the words.)
     
  5. spnadmin

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    Start with this link

    Gurbani Raags : SearchGurbani.com

    One of our moderators, NamJap ji,is a musician. He may be able to lead you to the sources you need.

    Another forum member Manbir Singh is versed in these issues and his wife is founder of the Gurmat Gian Group. You can send him a private message. I am sure he can help you.
     
  6. mattqatsi

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    Thank you so much, I'll report back later with what I find.
     
  7. Tejwant Singh

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    mattqatsi ji,

    Guru Fateh and welcome to the forum.

    On the offset, I would like clarify that I am no one but a Sikh which means a student, a learner, a seeker, an inquisitive person. Sikhi urges us through SGGS, our only Guru- Teacher, to make knowledge our best friend.

    So, I have some questions for my own understanding.

    1. What does "Living Word" mean?
    2. If there is "Living Word" then there has to be a "Dead Word" or not?
    3. Is your mathematical genius, which it is and one can notice that from your posts, able to differentiate between the two? If yes then how and if not then why not?
    4. When was the Gospel of Mark written?
    5. Why didn't Jesus say or write anything himself?
    6. Does your mathematical equation give us any reason/answer about number5?
    7. How can these mathematical equations that you claim are in the Bible give us the tools to breed goodness within so it can be shared with others?

    More to come after your responses.

    I am sure our interaction will be very educational for both of us and other readers.

    Thanks

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  8. mattqatsi

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    I want to apologize before I post this. Have you ever been sleep deprived and something interesting comes your way and you end up talking and talking and talking about it? I did not mean to go on like this but it's a hard topic and my brain used a lot of words to describe some beliefs and history of the Bible even though I didn't come here to spread propaganda. But maybe you can see why I'm so excited about it all.
     
  9. spnadmin

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  10. roopsidhu

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    Originally qouted by mattqatsi : {So my question is, has there ever been any research done on the mathematical inner workings of the different Sikh Scriptures? Either research like this or other mathematical analysis's (or however you spell the plural of analysis)?<!-- google_ad_section_end --> }
    After reading the First post by mattqatsi one gets only little but anyhow from the above words from mattqatsi's qoute the question he is asking is clear.And the answer to the best of my knowledge is "NO". And its simply because Gurbani teaches us not to believe in astrology and numerology ( you otherwise put as mathematical inner working). We in sikhism are just bothered about the message carried in the verses of gurbani.
    First of all the verses you are discussing are unknown. you have not mentioned which scripture or which faith these verses belong to. Depending upon the faith or the mindset of the writer these verses might have been written keeping in mind the mathematical values. In that case nothing to wonder.
    In case You are refereing to any verses from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji then Naraynjot ji has tried to convey the correct answer. I will put some more light from the same prospective.
    Gurbani is not a collection of musical compositions but its a collection of poetic verses of divine message. Whole gurbani ans most of religious scriptures are in poetic format. The poetic form of the verses are written in different poetic styles ( in punhabi we say Chhands or the study of Pingal ) In study of pingal while writing any poetry the count of all the words are being counted for, and the count ( weightage) of each alphabet vary depending upon the type of alphabet ( single or combined alphabets). In all types of poetry exept "Azad kavita ( khulli kavita ) one can find the mathematical inner working relationship of the alphabets.
    If there are any mathematical inner working found in any verse or verses (Sri Guru Granth Sahib JI), it might be due to the poetic structure of all gurbani and let me be proud of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji because while writing most of the gurbani, utmost care has been taken from the poetic standards point of view.
    I hope this may help you a little bit.
    RoopSidhu
     
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  11. spnadmin

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    mattqatsi ji

    Permit me to elaborate on my earlier response to you. Gurbani consists of 31 raags. These are as roopsidhu ji says poetry. The poetry is meant to be sung -- in the musical format of raags.

    Music has a mathematical structure. If you check the link I posted you will see 31 links that lead to descriptions of the musical structure of each raag. For example, raag Ramkali.

    Here is the link for that, Gurbani Raag: Ramkali : SearchGurbani.com

    If the structure were not organized according to mathematical patterns the result would be random noise. So the musical structure aids and supports understanding the poetry.

    But to continue with roopsidhu's point -- there are no hidden divine messages in the structure of the raag Ramkali. The musical structure of the raags stretches back into time, into the history of Indian music. Whether Sikh or not a ramkali is instantly recognized by its structure.

    The message contained in Gurbani comes from the words of the Gurus, not the structure.
     

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  12. roopsidhu

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    <?"urn:[​IMG]SSA,</SPAN></P>Nobody can deny the mathematical structure of the music. But the point raised by mattqatsi was different. He was asking the mathematical relations of the words of the verses. To count the mathematical relation of any verse one must count the total alphabets and reach to the desired conclusions. The mathematical calculations in question are of the words not of Taals of ragas. A word of four alphabets can be sung in four matras and also in 16 matras in the same raga hence musical calculations are irrelevant and not in question here. The calculations in question are for alphabets which directly relate to the poetic structure of the verses. Most of gurbani has been divided into the various different forms of poetry. For example some forms are given below:
    Sawaiyas
    Saloks
    Ashtapadis
    Chaupadey
    Barah maha
    Bawan akhari
    And many more

    Yes, no one can deny the classification of gurbani as per 31 ragas. But please note that ragas has nothing to do with the way of writing, ragas are the way of singing.
    Our gurbani is perfect in poetic structure. If we have to find answer to mattqatsi's question it can be found from poetic structure only.
    I have tried to explain about the importance of ragas in gurbani in my one essay at www.likhari.org named "Gurbani kirtan wich raagan da mahatav".
    For structure of gurbani ragas there were 12 ragas uploaded on www.5abi.com it was having audio as well as raag details. Those raag details were provided by me.
    For more details those links can be viewed.
    Finally I would like to repeat that we, in Sikhism are never taught by gurbani to run after the mathematic calculations of the verses. We have been asked by our gurus to read, understand and to act upon the teachings of gurbani.
    Bhul chuk maaf
    Roopsidhu
    <o:p> </o:p>
    </o:p>
     
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    #11 roopsidhu, May 17, 2010
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  13. spnadmin

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    Thank you for your clarification roopsidhu ji.

    mattqatsi ji can also find some information about Taals at the link provided earlier, specifically

    Gurbani Raag:Taal : SearchGurbani.com

    Amrit Keertan Gutka:- Page : -:SearchGurbani.com

    roopsidhu ji

    I am curious about your reaction to these paragraphs that try to connect the "resonance" of elements of musical structure to the achievement of a heightened state of inner consciousness. Thank you

    Resonance
    Sacred music has two aspects; the outer and the inner. The outer side is the arrangement of words and notes, the welding of the substance and the tune which is a delight for the ear and the intellect. The inner side of this music is its mysterious process by which it opens the vista of inner consciousness and stabilises and wandering mind and brings joy and peace. Technically the result can be explained through the principle of resonance. It has been proved that in case of two instruments tuned identically, if the strings of one instrument are touched, the strings of the other instrument will automatically vibrate without any physical manipulation. Thus the mind will absorb the vibration of calmness through kirtan. One musicologist explains the process thus: “If two instruments, such as two sitars, are exactly in tune with each other and if one them is played upon, then it is observed that without touching each other, the wires of both the instruments vibrate in resonance automatically. Likewise, the mind is also constantly vibrating due to energy (shakti) manifested by the omnipotent in the soul (jiv-atma)-its cidabhasa.
    While music is being played or sung-going through the different notes of the various octaves-and one of notes comes into harmony and in identification with the vibrations of the mind of a person, the resonance becomes so strong that it holds the mind steadfast begins to flow gradually and flow gradually and follow the melody itself which is in tune with the external divine music, in perfect resonance and harmony with the raga and rhythm or melody (dhun) being heard externally. In this way internally the mind is gradually led, trained and channelised to attain calmness and repose. The result is that external joy begins to manifest itself slowly and steadily by itself. The more is the mind in tune, the greater is the mystic effect of the rhythm (ghar), modal music (raga)-reinforced with the Divine Word, the revelation (shabad) of the scripture”[40]. This joy creates in the mind a longing for a frequent repetition of the experience.
     
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  14. roopsidhu

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    SSA,
    Narayanjot ji,
    There is no contradiction with your delails about the resonance. But still my point is that we have gone far away from the question raised by mattqatsi. We were supposed to answer his question.
    bhul chuk maaf
     
  15. Astroboy

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    Well Narayanjot Kaur Ji, let's delve into Raag Mala and see what numbers can be arrived at. It may be interesting how Mattqatsi Ji wants to arrange them but raag mala is pretty straight-forward and one need not come up with a metaphysical or mathematical formula. Although in music there are the 7 keys and the 12 keys which form the basis of all vibrations, we will let Mattqatsi Ji come up with his own version of a 'new' formula if he wishes to do so.

    Mattqatsi Ji,

    You may click on the last line as shown below to view full verses.

    Page 1429, Line 19
    ਰਾਗ ਏਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਪੰਚ ਬਰੰਗਨ ॥
    राग एक संगि पंच बरंगन ॥
    Rāg ek sang pancẖ barangan.
    Each Raga has five wives,
    - - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
     
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  16. roopsidhu

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    SSA
    good idea namjap ji, lets find out the formula mattqatsi is writing about and will see how it works.
     
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  17. spnadmin

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    I am glad you have taken on the seva. This may be irrelevant. But is it not true that Raagmala has omitted some of the raags? Just wondering. It may not matter.
     
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  18. spnadmin

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    roopsidhu ji

    I myself think we are still on the same track. As I understand his remarks, mattqatsi ji is asking about spiritual connections found within and through mathematical connections.

    NamJap seems to be on the trail of the mystery."7 keys and 12 keys are the basis of all vibrations."

    A matter at hand - are these only physical vibrations, or do they have spiritual/metaphysical significance? The connection is controversial for some and lies at the root of naad yoga which finds spirituality in sound.

    All I was asking was for your opinion of those two paragraphs as I continue to be ambivalent, and don't know what to make of them. Your opinion is still welcome. Thanks.
     
  19. roopsidhu

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    SSA
    Narayanjot ji quoted
    This may be irrelevant. But is it not true that Raagmala has omitted some of the raags? Just wondering. It may not matter.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
    Yes its irrelevant but true that Raagmala has no reference about many ragas used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Raagmala has mention of 84 ragas. Gurbani has 31 ragas but still about 11 ragas of gurbani has no reference in raagmala directly.
    roopsidhu
     
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  20. roopsidhu

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    Narayanjot ji quoted
    All I was asking was for your opinion of those two paragraphs as I continue to be ambivalent, and don't know what to make of them. Your opinion is still welcome. Thanks.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
    which two paragraphs please ?<!-- / message -->
     
  21. roopsidhu

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    SSA
    The original quote by mattqatsi
    I'm trying to work out a report (as well as work out my own beliefs) on mathematics hidden within religious texts.<?"urn::eek:ffice:eek:ffice" />
    175 words (which comes out even when divided by 7, there are 25 sevens of words.)
    2. 98 Individual vocabulary words (14 sevens)
    3. 133 Individual forms of the words (19 sevens)
    --The language is alpha-numeric, which means each letter has a number attached to it. It's like A=1 B=2 C=3 etc. Each letter (and therefore each word) has a numeric value attached to it.—

    The numeric value of the whole passage is 103,663 (14,809 sevens)
    Mattqatsi is interested in the mathematics hidden in the religious text. His calculations are based on alpha-numeric values of letters such as A=1 B=2 etc. Its very clear that then he adds up the alpha-numeric values of all letters to reach to the numeric value of the whole passage.
    What I understood from it is that he wanted to know wheather any sikh scriptures has been studied this way and foud having mathematical relations or not.
    May be mattqatsi can refine his question to clear my doubts about his question.
    Sorry for any.......
    roopsidhu
     
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    #20 roopsidhu, May 18, 2010
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