Soul_jyot said:
People read and recite until they grow weary, but they do not find peace.
Consumed by desire, they have no understanding at all.
They purchase poison, and they are thirsty with their fascination for poison. Telling lies, they eat poison. ||7||
Telling lies for malicious reasons or to hide ignoble things.
Telling lies, they eat dead bodies.
And yet, they go out to teach others.
They are deceived, and they deceive their companions.
O Nanak, such are the leaders of men. ||1||
Yes, people who teach lies are obviously bad. As are those who lead with lies.
Surinder Kaur Cheema said:
Respected MAX314,
I know you are a strong advocate of “lying helps”.
Some people live their whole life defending for so-called “White lies”.
Now, that's a little bit of an exaggeration, isn't it? I'm saying that telling an
untruth for a
positive reason (e.g. saving someone's life) is not a bad thing. Naturally, to commit infidelity, to mislead people for your own personal benefit, to tell lies for malicious reasons is obviously wrong. In these cases, lying obviously does not help.
With God’s grace a person who is courageous believe in handling everything with truth/facts on hand and with a response to the circumstances he/she facing and not reacting to them.
You say: “God has given us eyes, ears, mouth and mind. They're not for show. They're to be used.”
You think you will have the ability to use what is given to you if the Giver does not want you to do so. God is within you my dear, using and watching His own Creation (the senses and the organs you think are given to you, nothing belongs to you). You are not separate from the Watcher; this separation is only an illusion. Try to scratch deep within you and find your true self. Only then you will know, you cannot even think apart from Him, leave alone doing anything.
Develop the qualities those are your eternal nature; in the end all is going to be Him and Him and only Him. Develop that nirbhao, nirvair nature.
I'm not saying that our organs and senses belong to us "without God", my friend. I'm merely saying that they are our connection to the world and the tools we have with which to function in maya. They are here for a reason.
What you're saying looks great on paper, and I agree completely with the theology behind it. But in the real world, things don't quite work like that. Yes, I know that "All Is One" and all that stuff...I said it myself on many occasions...but human beings cannot see the spectrum. We can perceive Miri and Piri only in their descrete forms. For the human being, judgement and wisdom must be used in order to overcome the situations presented by maya.
You may think we are having this conversation. No, me, you, this website, our computers and everything else involved here are only mediums for this. You may not get anything at all out of it, may be it is a visitor on the website whose some question /inquiry is going to get answered through this, may be it will effect you indirectly at some later stage of your Spiritual progress.
:shifty:
There is no separation between the mediums used in this conversation either, there is no you, no me and no other readers. It is all Him and His Creation creating a change in the changeless.
That's great. It really is; but do you think perhaps we're heading a little off-topic here? Your passion for spirituality is admirable. But 'doing a Hindu' (no offense to the Hindu members :u): ) and sitting there chanting "Om Shanti" as the world crumbles around you isn't really my idea of what the practical emphasis made in Sikkhi is. Let us not forget that "
kirt karo" comes before "
naam japo". One's life duties in the world of maya comes first. Otherwise,
naam becomes just another
nasha to escape from the world. As the creation of the Khalsa Panth goes to show, this is not what
naam is supposed to be (ab)used for.
Damn, we just keep on side-tracking, don't we? :}{}{}:
You say: “But he's also given you the ability to influence your fate.”
Count instances in your life when lying has helped you influence your fate. Something might help you for a very short while, but forever, I cannot buy it at any cost. Fate is influenced by God’s grace my dear. God’s grace comes in with His remembrance. There is NO OTHER WAY.
When I remember God, I remember the gift of life.
If I have to lie to save a life, well nothing but God is gonna stop me from doing it.
God's grace comes by living a noble life, and not by ignoring one's God-given intellect and submitting becoming mental and spiritual 'dead'. It's like being asleep to the world. You're gonna miss it unless you wake up.
You say: “"Whatever it takes" would include lying.”
Yes for a fearful person it does include lying. When courage comes in your life, fear disappears, so do the prodiginy of fear (one of them is lying). Courage has deep roots; so does the truth; it is not based on false assumptions like fear and lie are.
Oh, dogma is enough to motivate entire armies to kamakazé missions. Courage through understanding the sacrifice of one's life is greater than the courage of wanting to reach a 'paradise' or 'salvation'. That's rooted in selfishness. Ain't much "deep" about that.
You must have seen mostly courageous people look you straight in the eye. Courage is freedom. There is no room for LYING in the life of a courageous person.
See, you keep making "lying" into this chracturised, one-dimensional thing. Yes, it is generally used for bad things. Yes, bad things ususally come of telling lies. But it is also true that not telling the truth can
sometimes prove to be used for good...and having to tell a lie for someone's benefit can be more courageous than being tactless and care-free and maybe even a little naive.
People who learn Bani, and then start living it, at some stage they start experiencing this eternal nature of theirs. It is a wonderful experience. You are standing amidst of uncertainties and you are not afraid of anything at all. The level of TRUST gets so high with Courage that there is no room left for false assumptions.
I see what you're saying - it's a rift on letting go of maya. However, these philosophies of yours seem to be verging on the irresponsible and dangerous. See, I reckon that the people who
truly get Bani would realise that nothing is absolute in this universe except God. Nothing is absolute. This includes the apparent 'evils' of killing and lying.
You say: “And yet, the Guru advocated the act of killing and engaging in martial action because of the long-term affect. If he had sat back on his laurels and said "well...ya know...it's all God's will, so let's just keep saying 'waheguru' and see what happens, eh?", then I'm sure the story of India's history would have a far more different face than the one there is today.”
Where Guru sahib advocated lies at all?
Act of killing; try to understand first why they advocated. It was to protect the suffering humanity at that time.
Accepting God’s Will does not mean the way you are defining it.
In simple words: you take the right action with intelligence of your brain, trust of your heart, with the insight you have, without expecting the results, leaving everything in His hands. Submission to God's Will means that you realize whatever comes from Him is for your own good. Your will is merged in His Will. For this you have to conquer the self by complete surrender.
Well, if
killing can be the Will of God, then so can
lying:
"Take the right action with intelligence of your brain, trust of your heart, with the insight you have, without expecting the results, leaving everything in His hands."
Your words, I believe?
When you lie to someone what you are doing:
You are treating people as means to the end you wish to accomplish. Morally, Socially and Spiritually it is wrong my dear.
Not if you're doing it to save their life.
A time will come when you will realize this.
Thanks mummyji :shifty:
Please forgive me if I hurt your beliefs.
Likewise :wink: