Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Lying?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by versus, May 26, 2006.

Tags:
  1. versus

    versus
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    2
    Sikhism teaches us to help others if we can. What if we can help someone but only by lying? Is this wrong? I have a feeling it is but i'm just looking for some clarification.
     
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Sikh News Essay: As A Turbaned Sikh American, Flying After 9/11 Is A Painful Reminder Of Breaking News Sep 17, 2016
    Sikh News Rio 2016: 'Flying Sikh' Milkha Singh Still Remains As India's High Watermark At The Olympic Breaking News Jul 31, 2016
    Sikh News 'Flying Jatt' Disrespects Sikh Community Breaking News Jul 21, 2016
    Hard Talk Bullying, Sikh Children, And Awareness Hard Talk Jul 6, 2016
    Milkha Singh: 'The Flying Sikh' Sikh Personalities Aug 1, 2014

  3. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Gurfateh

    All is lie but God only is True.
     
  4. Anoop

    Anoop
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    13
    The thing is, in order to help others you got to have love for yourself first.

    Theres no point in doing good for others if you dont have love for yourself, because then your not actually willing to help them, your just doing it for yourself!

    There is a time where you need to lie, and there is a time where you dont have to. Ofcourse it depends on the situation. As the people in this world may not be perfect, you have to sometimes defend yourself for good reasons, and then lying about something may be necessary but as long as you do it in love.

    When you help others you cant have fear in them and do it. It depends on how much love you have for god it is necessary.

    There was a time for such things, like to help others. Ofcourse we should help others, and the human life was meant to be exactly what sikhism teaches, but we have to make a few adjustments to protect ourselves.

    Again it all counts on if you feel god wants you to lie or help others. It depends on god.
     
    #3 Anoop, May 26, 2006
    Last edited: May 26, 2006
  5. simpy

    simpy
    Expand Collapse
    (simpy previously Surinder Kaur Cheema)
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    126

    Respected Anoop Ji,

    Lying comes in when we are unable to accept God's Will. We think that by hiding the truth we can save a person or ourselves from agony/sadness/punishment/and so on...

    Try something next time you are urged to lie(may be to please someone or some other reason)- Stay quite and leave everything to God. See what happens.


    Just a suggestion.
     
  6. max314

    max314
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 28, 2006
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    86
    Don't lie for malice. That's obviously wrong.

    But if it is to help someone, then of course it needs to be done.

    See, this is where just reading books written by others on morality and spirituality gets one stuck. You can forget that you actually have a brain as well :u):
     
  7. simpy

    simpy
    Expand Collapse
    (simpy previously Surinder Kaur Cheema)
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    126

    Respected MAX314,

    Lying is the most direct offence against the truth. IT MEANS YOU HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD THE REAL MEANING OF EKOMKAR.
    Others loose belief over those who lie.
    Having a brain does not mean you should misuse it.
    Gravity of the offence may vary depending on the circumstances and intentions of the lier, but offence is offence.
    Forgive me if I hurt your beliefs.
     
  8. max314

    max314
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 28, 2006
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    86
    Don't worry, I'm hard to offend :D

    What about the classic example of the man/woman who is running away from someone who intends to kill them and seeks shelter in your house? The pursuer comes to your door and asks if anyone has come to you asking for help.

    Do you say "I understand Ek Onkar, and so I will confess that the person is here"? Or do you say, "no sir, I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about...now, get off my porch"?

    'Truth' or 'untruth' is not what we say. It is the condition of what is.
     
  9. simpy

    simpy
    Expand Collapse
    (simpy previously Surinder Kaur Cheema)
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    126
    You know what I will do, I will fight for them, and do justice to them, I would not lie, neither will hide away.

    I believe in responding to the situation. Take care of the problem right then and there with whatever insight i have at the moment.

    Let us talk about the chances here If a i lie:

    If the persuer has seen them already walking into my house: chances are he will do anything to break into my house. What i gain from lying, get my house damaged, of course if i am lying, i am a coward anyways so will not have enough courage to fight with them after they break in.

    If the persuer believes in my lie: 99% chances are he will find the couple later and will hurt them or kill them depending on his intentions. Now what i will gain out of lying, saved my house and my life. Will i be able to live with the guilt anyway? If i am, i am a coward.

    Is't this be convenient to take care of the things right away and save them from the tyrany of the persuer? What he will be able to do, the most will kill me, i am not afraid of dying? Death is inevitable. This body has to expire one day. This is God's way, and untill He wants death cannot come. Instead of living like a coward i would like to help the needy with whatever it takes.



    Please forgive me if i hurt your beliefs.

     
  10. max314

    max314
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 28, 2006
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    86

    Indeed. But he's also given you the ability to influence your fate. This reminds me of something that once had me in hysterics for a good thirty minutes: truck drivers in India who drive on the most precarious mountain-side roads at night time with no headlights because they believe that whether or not they die is "God's will".

    I believe that there is a line between faith and foolishness, between pride and stupidity.

    God has given us eyes, ears, mouth and mind. They're not for show. They're to be used.



    "Whatever it takes" would include lying. There is no cowardice in averting danger through use of one's God-given intelligence. Not every battle has to be physical.

    Even in a war for justice, killing must be comitted. I think killing a human being is significantly worse than lying to one (and I'd most certainly hope that you do, as well). And yet, the Guru advocated the act of killing and engaging in martial action because of the long-term affect. If he had sat back on his laurels and said "well...ya know...it's all God's will, so let's just keep saying 'waheguru' and see what happens, eh?", then I'm sure the story of India's history would have a far more different face than the one there is today.:}{}{}:

    (P.S. - When someone poses a highly generic, hypothetical situation like that, it's not there to be dissected...that would kinda be like answering a rhetorical question. It's the underlying message that counts, not the meaningless idiosynchrasies of an event that does not even exist :wink:)
     
  11. simpy

    simpy
    Expand Collapse
    (simpy previously Surinder Kaur Cheema)
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    126
    Respected MAX314,

    I know you are a strong advocate of “lying helps”.
    Some people live their whole life defending for so-called “White lies”.


    With God’s grace a person who is courageous believe in handling everything with truth/facts on hand and with a response to the circumstances he/she facing and not reacting to them.


    You say: “God has given us eyes, ears, mouth and mind. They're not for show. They're to be used.”

    You think you will have the ability to use what is given to you if the Giver does not want you to do so. God is within you my dear, using and watching His own Creation (the senses and the organs you think are given to you, nothing belongs to you). You are not separate from the Watcher; this separation is only an illusion. Try to scratch deep within you and find your true self. Only then you will know, you cannot even think apart from Him, leave alone doing anything.

    Develop the qualities those are your eternal nature; in the end all is going to be Him and Him and only Him. Develop that nirbhao, nirvair nature.

    You may think we are having this conversation. No, me, you, this website, our computers and everything else involved here are only mediums for this. You may not get anything at all out of it, may be it is a visitor on the website whose some question /inquiry is going to get answered through this, may be it will effect you indirectly at some later stage of your Spiritual progress.

    There is no separation between the mediums used in this conversation either, there is no you, no me and no other readers. It is all Him and His Creation creating a change in the changeless.


    You say: “But he's also given you the ability to influence your fate.”

    Count instances in your life when lying has helped you influence your fate. Something might help you for a very short while, but forever, I cannot buy it at any cost. Fate is influenced by God’s grace my dear. God’s grace comes in with His remembrance. There is NO OTHER WAY.

    You say: “"Whatever it takes" would include lying.”

    Yes for a fearful person it does include lying. When courage comes in your life, fear disappears, so do the prodiginy of fear (one of them is lying). Courage has deep roots; so does the truth; it is not based on false assumptions like fear and lie are.

    You must have seen mostly courageous people look you straight in the eye. Courage is freedom. There is no room for LYING in the life of a courageous person.

    People who learn Bani, and then start living it, at some stage they start experiencing this eternal nature of theirs. It is a wonderful experience. You are standing amidst of uncertainties and you are not afraid of anything at all. The level of TRUST gets so high with Courage that there is no room left for false assumptions.






    You say: “And yet, the Guru advocated the act of killing and engaging in martial action because of the long-term affect. If he had sat back on his laurels and said "well...ya know...it's all God's will, so let's just keep saying 'waheguru' and see what happens, eh?", then I'm sure the story of India's history would have a far more different face than the one there is today.”

    Where Guru sahib advocated lies at all?


    Act of killing; try to understand first why they advocated. It was to protect the suffering humanity at that time.

    Accepting God’s Will does not mean the way you are defining it.

    In simple words: you take the right action with intelligence of your brain, trust of your heart, with the insight you have, without expecting the results, leaving everything in His hands. Submission to God's Will means that you realize whatever comes from Him is for your own good. Your will is merged in His Will. For this you have to conquer the self by complete surrender.


    When you lie to someone what you are doing:
    You are treating people as means to the end you wish to accomplish. Morally, Socially and Spiritually it is wrong my dear.

    A time will come when you will realize this.

    Please forgive me if I hurt your beliefs.

    Guru Bhala Karey
     
  12. Archived_Member16

    Archived_Member16
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,451
    Likes Received:
    3,761
    This Shabad is by Guru Amar Daas Ji in Raag Maajh on Pannaa 119

    mwJ mhlw 3 ]
    sy sic lwgy jo quDu Bwey ]
    sdw scu syvih shj suBwey ]
    scY sbid scw swlwhI scY myil imlwvixAw ]1]
    hau vwrI jIau vwrI scu swlwhixAw ]
    scu iDAwiein sy sic rwqy scy sic smwvixAw ]1] rhwau ]
    jh dyKw scu sBnI QweI ]
    gur prswdI mMin vsweI ]
    qnu scw rsnw sic rwqI scu suix AwiK vKwnixAw ]2]
    mnsw mwir sic smwxI ]
    iein min fITI sB Awvx jwxI ]
    siqguru syvy sdw mnu inhclu inj Gir vwsw pwvixAw ]3]
    gur kY sbid irdY idKwieAw ]
    mwieAw mohu sbid jlwieAw ]
    sco scw vyiK swlwhI gur sbdI scu pwvixAw ]4]
    jo sic rwqy iqn scI ilv lwgI ]
    hir nwmu smwlih sy vfBwgI ]
    scY sbid Awip imlwey sqsMgiq scu gux gwvixAw ]5]
    lyKw pVIAY jy lyKy ivic hovY ]
    Ehu Agmu Agocru sbid suiD hovY ]
    Anidnu sc sbid swlwhI horu koie n kImiq pwvixAw ]6]
    piV piV Qwky sWiq n AweI ]
    iqRsnw jwly suiD n kweI ]
    ibKu ibhwJih ibKu moh ipAwsy kUVu boil ibKu KwvixAw ]7]
    gur prswdI eyko jwxw ]
    dUjw mwir mnu sic smwxw ]
    nwnk eyko nwmu vrqY mn AMqir gur prswdI pwvixAw ]8]17]18]

    maajh mehalaa 3 ||
    sae sach laagae jo thudhh bhaaeae ||
    sadhaa sach saevehi sehaj subhaaeae ||
    sachai sabadh sachaa saalaahee sachai mael milaavaniaa ||1||
    ho vaaree jeeo vaaree sach saalaahaniaa ||
    sach dhhiaaein sae sach raathae sachae sach samaavaniaa ||1|| rehaao ||
    jeh dhaekhaa sach sabhanee thhaaee ||
    gur parasaadhee ma(n)n vasaaee ||
    than sachaa rasanaa sach raathee sach sun aakh vakhaananiaa ||2||
    manasaa maar sach samaanee ||
    ein man ddeet(h)ee sabh aavan jaanee ||
    sathigur saevae sadhaa man nihachal nij ghar vaasaa paavaniaa ||3||
    gur kai sabadh ridhai dhikhaaeiaa ||
    maaeiaa mohu sabadh jalaaeiaa ||
    sacho sachaa vaekh saalaahee gur sabadhee sach paavaniaa ||4||
    jo sach raathae thin sachee liv laagee ||
    har naam samaalehi sae vaddabhaagee ||
    sachai sabadh aap milaaeae sathasa(n)gath sach gun gaavaniaa ||5||
    laekhaa parreeai jae laekhae vich hovai ||
    ouhu agam agochar sabadh sudhh hovai ||
    anadhin sach sabadh saalaahee hor koe n keemath paavaniaa ||6||
    parr parr thhaakae saa(n)th n aaee ||
    thrisanaa jaalae sudhh n kaaee ||
    bikh bihaajhehi bikh moh piaasae koorr bol bikh khaavaniaa ||7||
    gur parasaadhee eaeko jaanaa ||
    dhoojaa maar man sach samaanaa ||
    naanak eaeko naam varathai man a(n)thar gur parasaadhee paavaniaa ||8||17||18||

    Maajh, Third Mehla:
    Those who please You are linked to the Truth.
    They serve the True One forever, with intuitive ease.
    Through the True Word of the Shabad, they praise the True One, and they merge in the merging of Truth. ||1||
    I am a sacrifice, my soul is a sacrifice, to those who praise the True One.
    Those who meditate on the True One are attuned to Truth; they are absorbed into the Truest of the True. ||1||Pause||
    The True One is everywhere, wherever I look.
    By Guru's Grace, I enshrine Him in my mind.
    True are the bodies of those whose tongues are attuned to Truth. They hear the Truth, and speak it with their mouths. ||2||
    Subduing their desires, they merge with the True One;
    they see in their minds that everyone comes and goes in reincarnation.
    Serving the True Guru, they become stable forever, and they obtain their dwelling in the home of the self. ||3||
    Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Lord is seen within one's own heart.
    Through the Shabad, I have burned my emotional attachment to Maya.
    I gaze upon the Truest of the True, and I praise Him. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, I obtain the True One. ||4||
    Those who are attuned to Truth are blessed with the Love of the True One.
    Those who praise the Lord's Name are very fortunate.
    Through the Word of His Shabad, the True One blends with Himself, those who join the True Congregation and sing the Glorious Praises of the True One. ||5||
    We could read the account of the Lord, if He were in any account.
    He is Inaccessible and Incomprehensible; through the Shabad, understanding is obtained.
    Night and day, praise the True Word of the Shabad. There is no other way to know His Worth. ||6||
    People read and recite until they grow weary, but they do not find peace.
    Consumed by desire, they have no understanding at all.
    They purchase poison, and they are thirsty with their fascination for poison. Telling lies, they eat poison. ||7||
    By Guru's Grace, I know the One.
    Subduing my sense of duality, my mind is absorbed into the True One.
    O Nanak, the One Name is pervading deep within my mind; by Guru's Grace, I receive it. ||8||17||18||


    http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=&ShabadID=337&Format=2


    This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Maajh on Pannaa 139

    sloku mÚ 1 ]
    kUVu boil murdwru Kwie ]
    AvrI no smJwvix jwie ]
    muTw Awip muhwey swQY ]
    nwnk AYsw AwgU jwpY ]1]

    salok ma 1 ||
    koorr bol muradhaar khaae ||
    avaree no samajhaavan jaae ||
    mut(h)aa aap muhaaeae saathhai ||
    naanak aisaa aagoo jaapai ||1||

    Salok, First Mehla:
    Telling lies, they eat dead bodies.
    And yet, they go out to teach others.
    They are deceived, and they deceive their companions.
    O Nanak, such are the leaders of men. ||1||


    http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=&ShabadID=373&Format=2
     
  13. max314

    max314
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 28, 2006
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    86


    Telling lies for malicious reasons or to hide ignoble things.


    Yes, people who teach lies are obviously bad. As are those who lead with lies.

    Now, that's a little bit of an exaggeration, isn't it? I'm saying that telling an untruth for a positive reason (e.g. saving someone's life) is not a bad thing. Naturally, to commit infidelity, to mislead people for your own personal benefit, to tell lies for malicious reasons is obviously wrong. In these cases, lying obviously does not help.

    I'm not saying that our organs and senses belong to us "without God", my friend. I'm merely saying that they are our connection to the world and the tools we have with which to function in maya. They are here for a reason.

    What you're saying looks great on paper, and I agree completely with the theology behind it. But in the real world, things don't quite work like that. Yes, I know that "All Is One" and all that stuff...I said it myself on many occasions...but human beings cannot see the spectrum. We can perceive Miri and Piri only in their descrete forms. For the human being, judgement and wisdom must be used in order to overcome the situations presented by maya.

    :shifty:

    That's great. It really is; but do you think perhaps we're heading a little off-topic here? Your passion for spirituality is admirable. But 'doing a Hindu' (no offense to the Hindu members :u): ) and sitting there chanting "Om Shanti" as the world crumbles around you isn't really my idea of what the practical emphasis made in Sikkhi is. Let us not forget that "kirt karo" comes before "naam japo". One's life duties in the world of maya comes first. Otherwise, naam becomes just another nasha to escape from the world. As the creation of the Khalsa Panth goes to show, this is not what naam is supposed to be (ab)used for.

    Damn, we just keep on side-tracking, don't we? :}{}{}:

    When I remember God, I remember the gift of life.

    If I have to lie to save a life, well nothing but God is gonna stop me from doing it.

    God's grace comes by living a noble life, and not by ignoring one's God-given intellect and submitting becoming mental and spiritual 'dead'. It's like being asleep to the world. You're gonna miss it unless you wake up.

    Oh, dogma is enough to motivate entire armies to kamakazé missions. Courage through understanding the sacrifice of one's life is greater than the courage of wanting to reach a 'paradise' or 'salvation'. That's rooted in selfishness. Ain't much "deep" about that.

    See, you keep making "lying" into this chracturised, one-dimensional thing. Yes, it is generally used for bad things. Yes, bad things ususally come of telling lies. But it is also true that not telling the truth can sometimes prove to be used for good...and having to tell a lie for someone's benefit can be more courageous than being tactless and care-free and maybe even a little naive.

    I see what you're saying - it's a rift on letting go of maya. However, these philosophies of yours seem to be verging on the irresponsible and dangerous. See, I reckon that the people who truly get Bani would realise that nothing is absolute in this universe except God. Nothing is absolute. This includes the apparent 'evils' of killing and lying.

    Well, if killing can be the Will of God, then so can lying:

    "Take the right action with intelligence of your brain, trust of your heart, with the insight you have, without expecting the results, leaving everything in His hands."

    Your words, I believe?

    Not if you're doing it to save their life.

    Thanks mummyji :shifty:

    Likewise :wink:
     
    #12 max314, Jun 5, 2006
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2006
  14. simpy

    simpy
    Expand Collapse
    (simpy previously Surinder Kaur Cheema)
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    126
    Respected MAX314,

    First of all i am not doing any exaggeration of what we are talking about, neither i am trying to go off topic. I again apologise if i hurt your beliefs.

    We are on the SIKH PHYLOSOPHY NETWORK; so things have to be discussed in that light.

    It is plain and simple “DO NOT LIE” under whatever circumstances.

    A True Sikh does not lie and in fact cannot lie.

    There are no exceptions to the rule in any path you follow Beeba .
    Spiritual path means-Tan Man Kaat Kaat Sub Arpee, Vich Agnee Aap Jalaaee
    Guru Sahib da kahena- Sirr Dhar Tali Gali Mairee Aaoo; It Maarg Pair Dhareejay Sirr Deejay Kaan Naa Keejay..


    The intellegence that your ego affirms again and again that it is Mine, God has given this to ME; has to be surrendered, only then you will be able to see the truth.

    You reminded me of Bhoomian, how stubborn he was about stealing and how Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught him that it is bad; does not matter how you do it. You will learn when your time will come. And it is true. As soon as you come under Guru’s Sharan, learning process starts. Sooner or later a Sikh(deciple) learns all.

    It is the absolute truth, one day Soul is going to merge into its Source, you can start now or choose to stay in the vicious circle as long as you prefer, and it is absolutely your own choice. Call me by any names, does not matter; my dear, Divine reality does not change.

    And the rules you been mentioning go somewhat like this: Nam Jappo, Kirt Karo, Wand Shako.

    For their own convenience people change the sequence. I think a believer of Ek Onkar must consider Naam Jappo as the first priority since everything else is also Ek Onkar and only Ek Onkar. Just a suggestion.

    Sikhi is where Naam Simran is, there is no Sikhi without it. Every page of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib tells us do it. And Time does not change the Absolute Truth.




    Again, forgive me please, if i hurt your beliefs.


    Guru Bhala Karey.
     
  15. max314

    max314
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 28, 2006
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    86
    No, you are not donig virtuous deeds for 'yourself'. Remember: "Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Wahegugu ji ki fateh"...all belongs to God. If you must lie to acheive a greater good then - just like killing another human being - it can/must be done.

    Sorry, but this has nothing to do with stealing for one's own personal gain. I'm talking about telling a mistruth in order to save a human life and prevent unnecessary confrontation and loss of life.

    Hehe...I never took kindly to spiritual blackmail :}{}{}: When the world starts to perform virtue for the sake of virtue and not for selfish rewards, this world will emerge from darkness.


    Imagine...the whole world keeps saying "Ek Onkar, Ek Onkar"...and thinks that this is the most important facet of life? What would happen? Chaos.

    We'd be decending into the same darkness that Guru Nanak attempted to bring those Yogi Sants out of.



    Naam Simran has its place in this world of both miri and piri.
    Everything has its place in this world of miri and piri.
     
  16. simpy

    simpy
    Expand Collapse
    (simpy previously Surinder Kaur Cheema)
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    126

    Very funny. There is no Spiritual blackmailing going on. This is the truth my dear. You do not have to believe it, if you do not want to.

    By the way, good choice of smilies.




    Manifested world is already saying "Ek Onkar".......... You only need to clear the clouds of karma to hear and feel that. That is going to happen only through ceaseless communion with God/Creator (REAL NAAM SIMRAN).



    Yogi and Sants Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji dealt with were mere pakhandies or were mislead simple minded people, not real saints or sadhaks.

    Their ego was their worst enemy. They had no idea about what is one pointed devotion. There was nothing wrong with the religion even at that time, that is why Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were advising them to do what they are doing but telling them to do it the right way.



    Sorry to hurt your beliefs.



    Guru Bhala Karey.
     
  17. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    i dont know if this has been mentioned or not but like vijaydeep paaji said god is the truth... so the love of truth is the love of God
     

Share This Page