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General Life in the West is Not All it is Cut Out to Be...

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Harry Haller, Aug 18, 2011.

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  1. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Posts in this thread were moved from http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/peopl...rong-deny-voting-rights-sehajdhari-sikhs.html


    The cost of living is sky rocketing in the west, inflation is getting higher and higher, yes, incomes are high, but personally, I am giving huge consideration to moving back to the Punjab. When I say back, that is not strictly true, as I was born here in the UK.

    Given that it is central to sikh philosophy to perfect the art of living, I think I would be more than happy just to rent somewhere modest with my wife, and earn enough to live.

    The last time I went to India there seemed to be a huge two tier system, with a local economy for residents, and a super western economy for NRI money, I would be leaving the UK not to live as I do here , but to live as a 'local' eating copious amounts of aloo prontha, visiting Gurudwaras, and seeing rural indian life away from the KFC's and the Pizza Huts.

    I do not understand why anyone would wish to emulate the lower echelons of society here in the uk, the great unwashed who claim benefits without needing, and spend it on satellite tv, take aways, fancy stereos, huge TV's and drugs. Here in the UK we call them chavs, for some reason in India they are known as the rich.

    I would not want to go to India to live like a chav...

    apologies spnadminji, I have just read your post re deviation, and I have done it too. , feel free to delete
     
    #1 Harry Haller, Aug 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2011
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  3. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Re: Wrong to Deny Voting Rights to Sehajdhari Sikhs: Amarinder

    Harry ji

    Let me answer your question.My brother was crazily smart and a class topper
    master of computer application from reputed indian college.everybody told him
    that he will be get the best package,now what happened ,he ended up hired by a company who also hired half of its class with same pay.though my brother moved to slightly high paying job but still unable to secure what his dream package is.Now One of his friend told him that one of cousin who did Computer engineering from an ordinary college,was never a brilliant instudies went to USA for Doing MS.Now the guy has 3 job letters in hand from dream companies with salaries ranging from 100k$ to 130k$ .His friend even laughed and said that we guys just fight like dogs for 6-7 lakh rupee job and he has 3 in his hand

    My brother who was always against moving outside India have now suddenly changed his mind and have started saying this is the reason why people move outside .At present he has no plan of moving outside India but in future who knows?
     
  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Re: Wrong to Deny Voting Rights to Sehajdhari Sikhs: Amarinder

    Kdsji,

    To clarify, my combined income with my wife last year was 80k UK £ which is about $132K, yet we have not had a holiday in 5 years, and we both drive cars valued at under £1200. Inflation means these figures mean nothing, low interest rates erode savings, rents are rocketing, petrol is rocketing, it is nothing short of a rat race, tell your brother he is better off earning less and spending less and being happy, perhaps we should start a new thread, 'why life in the west is not all its cut out to be'
     
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    #3 Harry Haller, Aug 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2011
  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Re: Wrong to Deny Voting Rights to Sehajdhari Sikhs: Amarinder

    correctly said Harry Ji. ILLUSSIONS are what people chase...dreams...some turn real..others turn into nightmares...trouble is everybody gets to hear about the DREAM JOB..but the IT Grad from banglore washing dishes in a MCDonalds is never talked about ( He willl say I am Manager of Environemnt in MCDonalds !! akin to Minister of Helath in manmohans Cabinet !!...those early days Punjabis working as janitors at Airports were called Enviornmental Manager !!
     
  6. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Re: Wrong to Deny Voting Rights to Sehajdhari Sikhs: Amarinder

    Harry ji

    You can ask admin or mod to start a new topic and shift all relevant posts there.There is no forum on internet where topics are not derailed ,but on various forums mods/admins quickly shift posts as discussions should be kept alive O/W forums start's dying
     
  7. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Re: Wrong to Deny Voting Rights to Sehajdhari Sikhs: Amarinder

    Kdsji,

    I think you just did :)
     
  8. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Re: Wrong to Deny Voting Rights to Sehajdhari Sikhs: Amarinder

    If life is bad in UK then why there is still not reverse migration by NRI's? I have discussed this topic many times with different people but not a single person outside India have shown interest to migrate back to India this is the biggest proof that life outside India is much better than India.
     
  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Re: Life in the West Is Not All It Is Cut Out to Be

    :>>>I have discussed this topic many times with different people but not a single person outside India have shown interest to migrate back to India this is the biggest proof that life outside India is much better than India.>>>>>

    KDS Ji,

    LIFE in India is much "better".or worse..its a matter of individual ( certainly Ambani or Mittal can live better anywhere..and a Beggar can beg in india as well as UK in the same way...).......its the CORRUPTION that is the reason ..Not a Single NRI wnats to move back or at least temporary stay/invest back home.

    ALL the "PROSPERITY" that people CLAIM PUNJAB has today..is 90% DUE to the fact that thousands MIGRATED OVERSEAS....decades ago....half to one CENTURY....SIKHS migrated overseas....leaving behind BIGGER LAND HOLDINGS for those who remained behind to FARM....and those who were ABROAD were PUMPING BACK their Hard earned money into PUNJAB...for them to buy Tractors and all....
    As the son of a Parcharak and a parcharak myslef, I have been WRITING LETTERS for Sikhs who have families (chachas taiyas etc) back home...for the past 50 years..these people BACK HOME have bene DEMANDING DEMANDING..and demanding...oh sadee majh marr gayee...oh sadee fasal dubb gayee..oh sadda traktor sarr giyah...as an excuse to NOT give a single cent to the real OWNERS (their own brothers chachas taiyas) etc who went overseas...every single letter always WANTED MONEY and more money...and I know many who became OLD earning here and once they went back..they faced DAGGER EYES..AA GIYAH SHREEK..zameen wannddnnee hai isneh..faha waddho isdah...many died under mysterious circumstances...now we the NRIs know its foolish to sleep/eat...UNLESS you SIGN off the Land to the Punjabis..then its OK to eat sleep in their hosues..otherwise...youa re signing your own death warrant...
    Cases fo deaths, fights, murders, cheating by making false papers affadavits etc on lands proipoerties abound....andy NRI knows this...and each Punjab Govt pretends to make NRI Sabhas etc..bt its all a sham..becasue those in the Govt are also land mafia grabbing NRI lands... RECENTLY a world Bank report states that NRIs pump back 55 BILLION USD a YEAR into INDIA...this has been happening since the early 1900's....PUNJAB has been PIMPING OFF the NRI's...thats the dirty secret of at least soem of its so called "prosperity"...BUT NRI are still willing to forgive and forget....and coem back and INVESt etc...IF CORRUPTION culture ends..every BEVKOOF from Chaprasee level wants a BRIBE !!! INDIANS SHOULD DEAL with THAT FIRST....VOTE OUT the CORRUPT !!
     
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  10. Ishna

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    Re: Life in the West Is Not All It Is Cut Out to Be

    Everyone has dreams and not everyone can acheive them. Everyone in the world wants money, luxury, beautiful partner, well behaved family, for life to go smoothly, but it's not like that for the vast majority of us.

    I can't speak for life in India as I've never been there and don't know much about it.

    But I live a modest life in the West and I can tell you it's not all one happy-go-lucky money ride.

    There is a lot of competition in the job force, higher education is expensive and difficult, wealthy jobs are stressful, and if you work in a trade industry and you're a man, be prepared for a rough ride because blokes are really mean to each other, especially new people.

    I suppose it's the same all over the world though.

    It all boils down to an attachment to Maya, I think.
     
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  11. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I think it all comes down to what you want out of life, neither of us could care less what car/house/contents we have, but I think that only stems from our lack of social circle. I have often wondered whether certain people would choose to live life the way they do if there were no observers, or if they lived on a desert island, how much of life is the pleasure of other peoples envy?

    I think once you get back to basics, and realise what it is out of life that you want, well, its peace, security, contentment, and in that, you find happiness. Well, logically, if your goals are unrelated to the mercedes, and the white carpet house, (why always white carpets?), then you may as well live where the living costs are low, and if you have a strong connection, then all the better, so to me Punjab is ideal. I have worked out we can rent an apartment, feed ourselves, and find work, and we will actually be financially better off then earning what we earn in the UK. What with the property market about to collapse, the stock market jittery, the collapse of the eurozone and the US credit problems, a life of sun, sewa, maybe doing the rounds of a few Gurdwaras, seeing a few villages, eating at a dhaba, I think my heart is already living there, we both feel we are just going through the motions here. We spend more on our catfood then we would probably spend feeding ourselves back home!

    Kdsji, your quote

    If life is bad in UK then why there is still not reverse migration by NRI's? I have discussed this topic many times with different people but not a single person outside India have shown interest to migrate back to India this is the biggest proof that life outside India is much better than India.

    I think this is because of several reasons,
    1. They have not made enough money yet to make the grand entrance back
    2. They have immersed themselves in western living, and do not wish to lose that
    3. Their children have taken on western personas, married locals, and the whole family is now stuck here, rather than go back home and lose face.
    4. They see themselves as affluent cultured people, who have no wish to mix with the yokels back home.
     
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  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    4. They see themselves as affluent cultured people, who have no wish to mix with the yokels back home.,,,,,:mundaviolin::mundaviolin::mundabhangra::mundabhangra::grinningsingh:
     
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  13. Ishna

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    KDS ji, and others

    You may enjoy the film Mind the Gap:
    Synopsis
    The Mankoos, a Sikh family, who originate from Kenya, lived in London and recently emigrated to Australia, take you on a journey to India in search of their identity and a place of belonging. Dari, the father, ex pop star and London Underground driver, Tina, his wife and an IT expert, and their daughter Kiran, a fractious teenager venture on the trip which they hope will change their life. The scenes of their spiritual journey through India frame the story of a family in transition and their struggle to find their roots and a common ground.
    It shows a very interesting perspective, especially the daughter who has never been to India, and she doesn't much like it when she gets there.

    Also, KDS ji, I hope things improve for your brother. I can see from a lot of your other posts that the India vs West issue bothers you quite a bit. Can you expand upon that? What would you rather see?

    Harry ji, well said! My husband and I have an almost non-existent social circle, and I can relate totally to your post about spending more on the catfood than your own food!
     
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  14. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    bhenji,

    you know what they say, the more you have, the more you worry you will lose it!

    My parents came to see us a few days ago, luckily they are quite enlightened, although for some reason Indians are not really dog people, our dogs are like our kids, and mum did not appreciate dan eating from my plate, so we had to lock the dogs out, Indian dogs, apparently are not allowed in the house as a general rule, and they absolutely are not allowed in bed, but after a while, dogless, we sat down for dinner, I am so used to finding dog hairs in my food, I have got used to it, so i said, amazing eating without dog hairs in your food, to a glare from my mum, and a kick from my wife,

    My dream is to buy a diesel ancient range rover and drive through europe, right to India with Dan, Virgil and Alfie in the back, although it is a dream at the minute!

    Why does stuff make people happy? and how much of that happiness is related to the fact that you have better stuff than others?

    Bhenji I have to say, to embrace what you have at such a young age is amazing, you have so much more time than me to enjoy proper living, instead of false living, I think you have a wonderful peaceful life ahead of you, such wonderful qualities in one so young, amazing! peacesignkaur

    phew that makes me feel old!:singhsippingcoffee:
     
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  15. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Gyani ji

    I am talking about common man not about Ambani,Tata etc .One can even say that indurialist of very poor country in Africa are leading better life than Poor in America.

    The per capita NSDP income does not count remittances from NRI's ,Yet Punjab had Per capita NSDP of 46000,so saying that Punjabi's only have money because of Remittances is not true.Also 80% participants of sikh forums are NRI ,10% are converts and remaining 9% are from rich/upper middle class urbanites so there is hardly any participation from rural class.
    I am sure if they appear on forums they will have their side of story to tell about NRI's as there is always two side of a story.

    And do you think that property fights don't happen in India? almost every family which has property is involved in fights in some families they are minor in some it become major.But with time these disputes are going to be less because unlike past when there were 4-5 brothers now there are only 2 children.so this problem will solve with time

    So great of these NRI's that's why there are 30,000 holiday brides left in Punjab,they truly forgot even their wives in Punjab.As far corruption is concerned it is in entire world with much more in developing countries.Corruption starts when there is less resources more people.Recently Delhi govt passed that all good private schools should reserve 25% of seats for poor students.The criteria was set that priority should begiven to children which are living in 3 km radius.Now hat happened was for 50 seats there were 5000 applications.taking IQ tests of children is already banned,testing parents is also ruled out so what should schools do?In these kind of situation people themselves offer bribes .

    Anyway just switch on any Indian channel and see how Anna hazare and his team is fighting against corruption and millions of youths are coming out in support
     
  16. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Ishna ji

    Sorry to say but this issue hardly bothers me.But as The migration of sikhs from Punjab is highest to west so it means qualified and talented workforce will leave Punjab leaving behind poor quality of people ,this will clearly mean that industry will hardly invest in Punjab and above all we see so many people blaming GOI/RSS for migration Hindu's in state or lack of industrialisation ,so this is question always surprises me that on one hand Punjab's sikhs just want to go abroad ,but on the other hand they don't want Hindu's to come in Punjab .
     
  17. Ishna

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    KDS ji

    I can't comment too much because I really am too far removed from the situation, but I can offer two observations from my point of view:

    1. I am part of the hiring process for the organisation I work for. Every time we advertise a position, lets say for a psychologist, we will get a whole bunch of applications from people either in India, or people with Indian names and educations living in my city, with engineering degrees, IT degrees, logistics degrees, management qualifications, medical doctors, but nary a garden-variety psychologist. And my organisation is notorious for paying poor wage (we are not-for-profit). So I wonder, are things so uncomfortable for them in India that they would apply for any kind of work even if it means being severelly under paid for their qualification? Why can't they get this kind of work in India? Why don't they want to stay in India and make improvements? They would rather take a crap job here than a crap job there? Why?

    2. Australians are getting angry that big Australian companies (our main phone provider, for example) or big global companies with large Australian customer base, are taking their operations to India. You can't call a customer service line without (and I don't want to sound rude or racist) getting an Indian on the line. Personally I love it, I love their accents, I love how polite they are, I burst to ask them where they are and if they're a Sikh (of course I don't!) and I'm very polite to them because I try to be polite to everyone and I know how much crap they get from other Australians. :(

    What is your perspective of these large companies setting up shop in India?

    Also, I was watching a program on TV recently where young British upstarts were sent to do proper work in foreign countries (like make coffee in Africa). One of their first stops was an Indian clothes factory. They had to sleep on the floor of the factory, make a million (okay maybe not actually a million) shirts in one day, and get paid hardly any money while the man paying them would sell the clothes for much more. They asked why he paid them so little and kept som much of the money himself when he knew the workers were so poor. He basically said "that's just the way it is".

    So I guess it's a pretty massive topic!
     
  18. Lee

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    Ohh I don't know Harry ji,

    I live and work in London in the UK, my wife and I have a combined salary that is less than half of yours, the majority of which coems form my wage. We have two teenage boys, we have no cars, and live in council accomidation. Most of our cash goes on food and bills and yet I am rather well off thank you very much. No mortgage, no credit, I treat myself to reading materials and music from time to time.

    You can live a simple life I think where ever you are.
     
  19. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    hahaha leeji, that was LAST year, when I was a smart looking IT consultant with many companies under my belt, fast forward to this year, and I am a small shop owner and our combined income is now £40k, so we have lost half our income in a year!

    We have got rid of most of the trappings of that previous lifestyle, the bmw, the range rover, the cottage in suffolk, I actually get the bus to and from work now, make my own sandwiches etc etc, and I don't miss any of it, ok I miss the cars, but only because I love cars, but they were both quite old, no, what is dragging us down are the animals, ferrets cats dogs, and my wife's petrol bill, as she is a community nurse, and my house rent and energy bills.

    The more I embrace sikhi, the less I find I need things, in fact, these days, my favourite saying, which I stole from Aristotle (i think) is going shopping with my wife, and shouting out 'look at all these things I don't need'
     
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  20. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Ishna ji

    There are several reasons behind it.

    1) There is craze of going outside India,seeing hollywood all the imagining lifestyle like American lifestyle.

    2) In India there are jobs but people want high paying one even if you save 10,000 australian or US dollar and send them home its 4.5-4.8 lakhs which is very good amount for your family ,Your parents ,wife brother sister can live comfortable life and can pay their expenses of education marriage etc.

    3)Many people side by side acquire degrees from western universities as they know their indian degree are useless in world ,not at all valued by MNC companies

    Large companies are setting up in India because of cheap labour and no restriction to exploit them they can ask you to work for 12-14 hours without paying overtime.This is the way China has become economic superpower and other countries are also copying it.
     
  21. Ishna

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    KDS ji: No one can seriously look at Hollywood and think they're going to achieve that! It's make-believe.

    For me to save $10,000 AUD would take me years on my wage! Don't think that kind of money falls off trees in the West, unfortunately.

    My wedding was extremely modest, we had around 37 guests to our wedding, I had practically second-hand wedding dress (it was demo dress in the store), and it still cost us around $13,000 AUD!

    A house in my city will cost you upwards of $250,000 MINIMUM-- I doubt I'll ever earn enough to buy my own property.

    I think you need to keep in mind that the income might be higher but the living expenses are also higher.

    I think it's disgusting that anyone should exploit anyone else. How can a country like India protect itself against this kind of exploitation? People are so desperate there that they will work for 14 hours with no paid overtime. In Australia we have laws which prevent that. Why can't India have laws like that then? I am showing my naievity in this, I really don't know much.
     

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