Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Judaism Judaism & Sikhi

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Archived_member15, Dec 13, 2012.

Tags:
  1. Archived_member15

    Archived_member15
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2012
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    642
    This is a very enlightening read from the "Sikh review", a pdf article on some similarities between Judaism and Sikhism, which I think could bode well as a discussion point for interfaith dialogue:

    http://www.sikhreview.org/pdf/march1996/pdf-files/inter.pdf

    The article also discusses some differences in belief which makes it a very fair, respectful yet scholarly read - ie there is no inconsiderate attempt at immoderate syncretism or blending of religions which devalues the distinct beauty and independent perspectives on truth that are reflected in the world religions, whilst not denying that man is one in his search for meaning and that the spiritual reality towards which he strives is also one. In this respect I think that a "core" deposit of truths can be found nestled within the sacred teachings of every humane belief system which has ennobled humanity, yet we must also recognize the differences or else we might commit the error of blurring the rich and legitimate diversity of human approaches to worship.

    A few excerpts which interest me:

    I very much admire the sentiment expressed in the last passage. Sister Ishna ji innocently and with pure intent referenced an Ismaili Muslim article which spoke of Judaism in (to my eyes) a wholly deprecatory and deamining fashion with no attempt at a fair representation of this faith's teachings. I am heartened that the Sikh authors of this article have engaged with Jewish beliefs in a real spirit of compassion.

    Those who study Judaism with an open-mind, and in particular Jewish mysticism (known as Kabbalah and also Hasidic spirituality), will in my mind discover it as being one of the most fascinating religions on earth with much to teach all of us and contribute to civilisation.
     
    • Like Like x 9
    #1 Archived_member15, Dec 13, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Judaism Ask Me About Judaism Interfaith Dialogues Apr 25, 2011
    Judaism Bridging the Divide Between Judaism and Christianity (Forward) Interfaith Dialogues Jul 15, 2005
    Christianity My rejection of Christianity, Islam, Judaism as religions from GOD. Interfaith Dialogues Feb 19, 2005
    Judaism Hair in Judaism Interfaith Dialogues Jul 28, 2004
    Judaism What is Reformed Judaism ? Interfaith Dialogues Jul 25, 2004

  3. TroVeCatBui

    TroVeCatBui
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2013
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    5
    • Like Like x 1
  4. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    These are Lubavitcher in the video who are a sect of Judaism. The costume and fur hats are traditional and stretch back in time. The sect retains the garb, hairlocks, beards, cultural norms and traditions, as part of their religious identity. The video, which is a bit long, depicts a celebration of some kind. Lubavitcher Jews typically have celebrations like this, attended by hundreds if not thousands, for birthdays, weddings and funerals of individuals from prominent families. This just gives an example of how much enthusiasm there is and how it is expressed. The group is tight knit, lives in various cities, or near cities, across the globe in enclaves with other members of their group. Traditions or movements within the sect have historical loyalties to founding rabbis. Their language of choice is Yiddish, a dialect of German. They have their own synagogues. They are orthodox and do not intermingle with other Jewish groups in general, but attend their own schools (or religious private schools operated by members of the Jewish faith) and work in traditional businesses like diamond cutting.

    p/s I think the video may be of the Chabad-Lubavitcher movement
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #3 spnadmin, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  5. Brother Onam

    Brother Onam United States
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    636
    I read a fascinating book called "Wheels of a Soul", by Rabbi Philip Berg, detailing a Jewish interpretation of transmigration. At the risk of being thought a heretic, I'm also not sure that Sikhi denies transmigration of the soul.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Brother Onam

    Brother Onam United States
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    636
    I can't speak for this particular group, but one of the most admirable things about some of these Hasids is that they are anti-zionist and stand firmly against the horrors perpetrated by the state of Israel, believing true Hebrews should have no part in dispossessing and oppressing any peoples of that region called the 'holy land'.
    Also, as mystics, they are tapping into the same Holy Spirit that Sikhs and other mystics try to ever draw closer to.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    You have it the wrong way round brother, it is the heretics that are sure.........
    Transmigration of the soul is quite mainstream Sikhi these days,
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    I think this makes both an interesting comparison and an interesting contrast.

    Separate note This is a wedding video. If you watch to the end you will notice that the earlier video is a continuation of this one. So we are looking at a Lubavitcher wedding.

    Yahudi Pernikahan - YouTube
     
    • Like Like x 3
    #7 spnadmin, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  9. linzer

    linzer Mexico
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2010
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    598
    Not to be trollish but if you look hard enough you can find similarities between apples and oranges.
    Brother Onam ji, just so you know, for main stream Jews, Rav Berg is considered a heretic.
    I not sure where you got the idea that hasidic jews are anti zionist. They compose one third of the illegal settlers in the occupied territories.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  10. akiva

    akiva Israel
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    153
    It's NOT a lubavitch wedding --

    1) The chassidim are NOT lubavitch -- I'd guess Belz right off;
    2) the first video is a dedication of a Torah scroll
    3) the second video IS a wedding
     
    • Like Like x 4
  11. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    The thread starts with a video of members of the Lubavitch tradition. The next comment refers to "Hassids." It is something that drives me crazy about Internet discussions.

    Yes, I myself am aware that Lubavitch as different from Hassidim. Hassidim is a religious identity that is much broader than Lubavitch and the two should not be confused.


    On the other hand, Chabad - Lubavitch is commonly used together. I did not make this up.

    Take a look at the end of the wedding video and tell me what you see, re: the second point.
     
  12. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    linzer ji

    That also had me wondering and I read the comments over many times. I think the facts prove you right.

    On your statement .. "if you look hard enough you can find similarities between apples and oranges." In my opinion the tendency to "find similarities between apples and oranges" is a common failing of interfaith discussions. One notes all the common features and draws wrong conclusions. It leads to something called an "affirmation error."

    Matches on the "positives" or "affirmations" does not lead to understanding, unless we take a look at the "negatives" or "contradictions."

    That is why I posted the second video. In anand karaj the Sikh wedding ceremony bride and groom are also connected by a scarf. The symbolism posed by the scarf is different. i was hoping to get a discussion started on the differences. Looking at differences and why they are there is a great way to understand what each religion is teaching about marriage and about other things too.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    #11 spnadmin, Apr 11, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  13. akiva

    akiva Israel
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    153
    The dance with the scarf is a "mitzva dance" -- where important members of the community dance with the bride.

    The reason for the scarf is that, once married, only the husband is supposed to have physical contact with the bride.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  14. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200

    akiva ji

    Does the bridegroom dance with the bride during the "mitzva dance?" And thanks for giving us an explanation.

    Does the mitzva dance happen before or after the couple are officially married?

    Could you also clarify whether any women of the congregation are present during this part of the wedding ceremony? It seems to be only men.

    Thanks because correct information is important.
     
  15. akiva

    akiva Israel
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    153
    spnadmin Ji

    The following applies to orthodox, in general, and chassidic specifically:

    There is a specific commandment to "rejoice with the bride and groom" -- hence the dancing.

    The bridegroom dances with the bride -- usually right before the "mitzva dance"

    The mitzvah dance is usually at the end of the celebration after the wedding and the wedding meal

    Weddings are segregated -- The women will be in a separate hall, dancing along with the bride for much of the evening. Depending on the hall there is usually a way for women to watch the men (but not vice versa)
     
    • Like Like x 3
  16. Brother Onam

    Brother Onam United States
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    636
    Gurfateh,
    Sorry if I spoke wrongly. I once came past the Convention Center here in Washington DC when the Israeli prime minister was the keynote speaker. Outside I saw a cluster of very orthodox-looking Hassids protesting. When I asked them about their position, they said they were opposed to the illegal occupation of Palestine. They said, as holy people they were bound to repudiate the Israeli occupation and human rights abuses by the state of Israel. They said their understanding of the laws was that Hebrews were meant to be a scattered and stateless people until the time that Yahwah place them in the heavenly kingdom. If these were not representative of other Hassids, I'm sorry to spread confusion.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Thanks for your replies akiva ji

    I have had in my life professional connections with a Lubavitcher community in northern New Jersey and a Hassidic community in Philadelphia. I know a tad about these branches of orthodox Judaism. However the rich details of personal and religious life come to me only a little at a time. The details fascinate me and I always want to know more.
     
  18. akiva

    akiva Israel
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    153
    Which thread? If THIS thread -- there are two videos -- the first (15 min long) consists of two things -- a Torah Scroll dedication and a celebration during the feast of tabernacles. The second video is a wedding

    Both are almost certainly Belz chassidim -- I recognize several of the people.

    Correct. Lubavitch is the town where it the movement started - chabad is the name of the movement's philosophy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad

    the 3:35 min video (Yahudi Pernikahan - YouTube)? I see no mention of lubavitch -- and the dress is NOT lubavitch in style)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. akiva

    akiva Israel
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    153
    Gurfateh Brother Onam Ji

    The group you saw protesting is a very small fringe movement. The reality, as with most things, is much more nuanced and "shades of grey".
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Can you tell from the YouTube commentary if this is a wedding in the Brooklyn Heights section of New York City? That would help clear things up. I think this has been cleared up in my later post.

    If yes, then this is from the Lubavitch community. They are not Lubavitch but Satmar Hassidim.

    A big source of confusion comes from some disagreement whether Lubavitch is Hassidic or not. Some authors consider the Chabad-Lubavitch movement as part of Haredi-Hassidim. Others do not and view it as a completely independent movement within Orthodox Judaism. The crux of the controversy to my naive mind stems from how far one is willing to yield on matters of theology before considering what is part of Hassidim and what is not. Or, who declares oneself to be part of or separate from the Hassidic movement.


    Similar confusion extends to manner of dress. Specifically when using the hats the men wear to distinguish traditions: I have seen sources that say Lubavitcher men wear only fedoras; others they wear the bearskin hats. In my personal experience, the fedora hat is more usual. However, the traditional dress can also be observed.

    Considering the broader issues of Hassidim. Now not all Hassidim wear traditional dress, at least here in the US, maybe in Europe or Israel they do. Therefore what Hassidim adopt cannot be used as a yardstick because there are too many varieties for that to work.

    What is your thinking on these issues.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #19 spnadmin, Apr 11, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  21. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    akiva ji

    It took some searching but I was able to clear this up. The wedding video is from the wedding of a daughter of Rabbi Zalman Teitelbaum - head of one of the 2 rival factions within the Satmar dynasty of Hassidic Judaism. It took place in the Williamsburg area of Brookllyn, New York City. Therefore these are not Lubavitcher, but a Hassidic community.

    There as been a record of dissension between the two factions.

    The wedding of the youngest daughter of Zalman's brother, and head of the other faction within the Satmar dynasty, took place in Jerusalem.

    The issues of dress: The garb worn appears to be consistent with the religious attire of members of the Satmar movement
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page