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Islam Islam View On Sikhism-please Help

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by harnam46, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. harnam46

    harnam46
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    Hello- some person in another forum who is a muslim has posted this and i was wondering if anybody can come back with a well delevoped argument to explain how he is clearly wrong:

    "Sikhism isn't even descended from God! It's about some philosophical Gurus who teach the 'right way to live' - exactly like Buddhism (except they only have one philosophical Guru - Gautama Siddharta).

    I wouldn't really count Sikhism as a religion - more as a collection of philosophical ideas (good ideas though!).

    However, Where are its' prophets? Who wrote your Holy Book? How many of your prophets have had any sort of *alleged* contact with God? You only have a bunch of Gurus talking about God don't you? They seem like mere mortals to me.

    Prophet Muhammad, Moses and Jesus weren't ordinary men. Your Gurus it seems were.

    Correct me if I'm wrong as my knowledge on Sikhism is rather limited"



    this is not all he carrys on more...


    "No offence, but according to my personal experience, Hinduism is a load of made-up-stuff. They have a tonne of stories about different Gods doing human-like acts - a bit like Greek Mythology. So in that aspect, I think we can assume that Hindus have very little understanding of God.

    Sikh traditions are not even descended from God! Your Gurus literally made them up as they went along!

    Also, what religion did the Punjabis have before Sikhism was introduced. It could only have been either of Islam or Hinduism. (I doubt Christianity was widely prevalent in India/Pakistan anyway)

    What miracles did you Gurus perform, just out of interest? I bet they pulled a rabbit out of a top hat!"



    I have tried to come up with the basic facts but its clear there needs to be more to make sure this doesnt happen again.. this is in a mixed race school and we cant let this boy get away with saying these things i personally think this is a stab at sikhi and am disgraced he says these things without viable evidence. Please help- and prove this person wrong. thankyou xxxx


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  3. Bijla Singh

    Bijla Singh
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    This is utter rubbish and shows how ignorant the muslims are of Sikhi and its principles.



    This is pure nonsense and nothing else. In Guru Granth Sahib it is clearly stated that Gurbani (the message) was directly revealed by God which Guru Nanak Sahib himself penned down. This preserved the message in its original form. Handwritten saroops and writings of the Gurus still exist today and many of them include signatures of the Gurus at the end. This shows that the message has been unchanged since the beginning. However, the same cannot be said about Quran. Even if we believe that Quran was revealed by God (which it wasn’t), there is no way to prove that the angel Gabriel, Mohammad and the contemporaries understood each other correctly and wrote down the correct interpretation. The message was verbally passed from God to Gabriel, then Mohammad and then to the contemporaries who wrote it down. The message being passed down verbally is susceptible to errors. Furthermore, the contemporaries had no divine knowledge and there is no way to prove that they wrote down the correct message and Mohammad, an illiterate person, had no capability to correct the grammatical errors. The fact is that Quran was compiled by Uthman many years after Mohammad’s death.



    I rather not talk about Jesus and Moses. Mohammad was not an ordinary man but even less. Initially he was so afraid of the “revelations” that he used to hide under the bed. Instead of correcting the problem of slavery by rejecting it he required Muslim women to wear hijab which was a sign of distinguishing between a free and a slave woman. This shows that the so-called “prophet” did nothing to stop the evil practice of slavery. He married a 6 years old, Aisha, and consummated the marriage when she was 9. Any ordinary person with little sense of morality and ethics could not have done such. If Mohammad wasn’t an “ordinary” man then why couldn’t he distinguish between God’s message and satanic verses? One of the most eminent of Muslim scholars of the 20th century, Fazlur Rahman, found no difficulty in accepting the truth of the "Satanic verses" incident in the light of the Qur'an's repeated assertion that Messengers were only human, and hence fallible.

    But whatever fears or thoughts - or even gestures - of compromise the Prophet might make, they were soon "abrogated" or "erased" by God, as verse 22:52 makes clear. The well-known story that after mentioning the pagan goddesses once (53:19-20), the Prophet described them as "exalted swans whose intercession [with God] is to be hoped for"... only to abrogate these words in 53:21-23, is perfectly intelligible, for this incident occurred at a time of great trial and persecution of his followers, whom he had ordered to emigrate temporarily to Abyssinia. There are other indications that certain verses were replaced by others: 2:106, 13:39, 16:101... For the Quran, it is neither strange nor out of tune nor blameworthy for a prophet that he is not always consistent as a human. It is nevertheless as a human that he becomes an example for mankind, for his average level of conduct is still so high that is is a worthy model for mankind... there is abundant evidence in the Quran that while the Prophet did at times wish that developments would take a certain turn, God's Revelation went a different way: "Do not move your tongue with [i.e., ahead of] the Revelation, hastily anticipating it. It is upon Us to bring it together and to recite it - so that when We recite it, let you follow its recitation." (75:16-19) (Fazlur Rahman, Major Themes in the Quran, pages 88-90).


    </SPAN>




    This once again has no reference. Many of the Islamic practices such as Ramadan, Hajj and even the name Allah has existed long before Mohammad was born. Facing a certain direction (Jerusalem) was also practiced which Mohammad changed later on.



    What does this prove? When Mohammad was born, the religion of his people was paganism and other religions such as Zoroastrian were practiced.



    Do miracles prove one’s truthfulness? In any case, the miracle of Gurbani is that the grammar and numbering system developed (independent of the Punjabi language) is so complex and detailed that the EXACT meaning of each verse is clear by the use of grammatical devices like Siharis and aunkarhs. This grammar system is not replicated anywhere and was created by the Gurus. Such a scientific grammar cannot be anything but divine. The numbering system for each and every stanza, verse and chapter are so uniquely implemented that it acts as a central locking system preventing any adulteration or addition to the Divine Revealed Word. Furthermore, Guru Nanak Sahib performed many miracles such as traveling to Hassan Abdal, Pakistan where he caused the spring to burst from the ground (which still flows today) and also the rock that still bears his hand-print. There are many other places like Lake Gurudongmar and Gurdwara Pathar Sahib in Sikkim where miracles and their proof exist even today and are verified by non-Sikh locals.

    Please do some research on Sikhi before you start making insulting comments. Sikhi is the true way of life as revealed by God Himself.</SPAN>
     
  4. sayedtaj

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    assalam(peace be upon u) my dear friend plz do research talking about any religion islam is the only true way to lead your life amd quran is the divive book which is revealed from GOD ALMIGHTY.and if u want to disprove quran then accept the chalenge of quran 'produce a chapter of holy quran some what similar to it and u will neer do it .if u not do it then fear the fire of hell 'so belive in ALLAH & and HIS true messenger prophet muhammed peace be upon him to attain salvation.
     
  5. Huck_Finn

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    bijla ji.. yourresearch on many facts is great..

    Harnam veerji,

    please donot get angry over comments.. stay steadfast to your faith ..

    every person has his/her own connection to god..and his/her own path to attain the ultimate.

    by the analogy, take example of punjab, so go by route A or route B, you will find many bus drivers and conductors shouting and trying to get as many ppl on their bus,

    but have you realized that all go to same place... some buses might be crampy, ..some might take a detour...some might charge more..., some fast, some slow...
    but all will reach destination...if the engine is good and driver is able.

    mr. Taj,

    thanks for invitation to all..

    God that shows anger and wrath defies the basic definition of God, which is above all human emotions.
     
  6. Bijla Singh

    Bijla Singh
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    Mr. sayed, numerous verses have been produced to counter the so-called "challenge" but muslims tend to make excuses. It is you who have to prove that quran is revealed so the ball is in your court. I don't have to prove quran wrong as one can easily observe the contradictions and grammatical, scientific and historical errors in quran. I am not interested in debating on these topics but if muslims do not stop attacking Sikhi then I have no choice but to expose the true face of Islam as numerous others have done similarly. Have a happy life. Guru Rakha
     
  7. Huck_Finn

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    mr. Syed,

    can you explain how hell looks like?

    is God /Allah there in Hell also?
     
  8. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh



    Bimillah Al Rahman Al Raheem.

    In the name of most mercyfull and kind.


    Das first would like to say that there are sections within Islam,who think that we as a Sikhs are also Muslims.But by bigot pseudo Muslims those true Muslims are also deemed as {censored word, do not repeat.} as Sikhs are.

    anyway to Brother Taj.Drop the term Sayad as you and das both are Adami(from Hazrat Adam (AS) and there is not need to a true Muslim to show anything racial like Sayyad(from family linage of Rasol(SWAS)).

    Brother Taj Jan!

    have you read Holy Kuran,it stattes all creation is By God,God has power over all and all works happen as God wants them to happen.

    Had Allah not wanted Gurmat may not have started.So Allah casues all.If you want das can give Page numbers of Holy kuran just kept over the top of Table having the moniter.

    Sikhs if is true Sikh is alreay in way of Islam(surrender to will of Allah(our ego)).

    Rember all goods and all bads and evil even acts of Satan are under full control of Allah.We behold Wahdat Al Wajod.Oneness of God in existance.For us it is Shirk even to agree that our exitance is a realtiy in front of Allah.If we be doer we ourself tend to be a Shaeeqq of Allah.

    Shareeq(one who wants to be or is beheld as partner of Allah) and Shirk(having faith in anything which is parnter of Allah).We call Shirk as Duja Bhav.

    coming to producing a Chapter like Holy Kuran.Anything which is once made,we can only recopy the origional.We can not make the orgional.One can copy the Guru Granth Sahib,Same like that something new can not be made.

    This logic is like you write a stroy and then say that others can not write it.It is OK,.No one can make a single Chapter of Kamsutra(erotica) as new as it is already made.No one can make another j an alphbet but can at the most make a nwe sound say K(which anyway is already there but had it not be).

    So if someone has faith to an idol or say Qibla,people can say that not other Idol or Qibla can be made.

    Das respect you faith.And faith matters.
     
  9. paapi_banda

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    Dear Sayed.. What is tha proof that ur Mohammad was a prophet??


    How could a prophet marry only 9-year-old girl??:mad:

    How could a prophet have more than 20 wives and concubines but at the same time command his followers to have only 4 wives???:rolleyes:

    Isn’t it strange that God permitted Mohammed to have more than 4 wives???:confused:

    How could a prophet rape a 17 year innocent girl "Safiyah"????:(

    Safiyah (only 17 years immature Jew Girl who was raped by your so called prophet of Allah and her husband, father and other relatives were killed by Mohammad and his sick followers then after raping only 17 years immature girl Safiyah, your 57 year very old Mr. Mohammad which muslims bymistake call prophet of allah, married her).

    I have so many questions for you. But i think today this is enough for you.
     
    #8 paapi_banda, Dec 12, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2006
  10. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh
    There are mnay idiot Sunnis who belive in Hadiths and Sunnas not related to Rasol(SWAS) but rather cooked up by Satanic guys in name of Rasool(SWAS) so let them by religeous santction do Satanic deeds.
     
  11. H_Singh

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    The Muslims also consider Guru Nanak a prophet, I have come across a Janam Sakhi which states the Guru performed a miracle at Mecca, one which is also stated by the Qu'ran. The Janam Sakhi is in english, and written below:

    ....The fourth journey took Guru Nanak westwards to Mecca, evidently without a regular companion. For this journey he wore leather shoes, pajama, a blue garment, and a necklace of bones. Having reached his destination he went to sleep with his feet in the direction of Mecca and a qazi named Rukandin who happenned to observe him in this position , rebuked him severely. The Guru suggested that the qazi should drag his feet round and leave them pointing in a direction away from God and the Ka'bah. Rukandin complied and was amazed to discover that as he moved the Guru's feet the miharab moved with them. He summoned Pir Patalia and the three engaged in discourse. At its conclusion Guru Nanak uttered 'Vahiguru' and water appeared in the wells, thus fulfilling a prophecy contained in the Muslim scriptures that Nanak , a darves, would come and cause water to spring in the wells of Mecca.

    Source:
    -- 'Guru Nanak and the Sikh Religion' by W. H. McLeod

    For a Muslim to disrespect or insult a Sikh, is an insult to a prophet recognised by there people. Some need to be reminded of this.
     
  12. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    Prophet Mohamud is Last Prophet and is addressed as Rasol in Jaffernammah by Tenth Master.Gurus were more a peer or elder and not Prophets,who want to be douing a sort of incest or intermediatiory between Akal and Humans.

    Gurus told to to gain the status of Guru by self and direct link to Akal.So due to pure path to Akal ,we are Khalsa.

    Akal did sent Rasol as Last Prophet but there after prophethood was stopped and by will of Akal,Akal can salvage us and unite us with same while we are alive and that was initiated by Akal's form ,who is First Master.

    Prophet is needed for those who long for paradise and may Akal let them have that also and vide Prophet.We only need and long form love to refugr in Akal.
     
  13. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    muslims do not consider guru nanak as prophet.according to islam mohammed was last prophet and there will be no more prophets after that.however muslims who respect guru nanak beleive that guru nanak was muslim sufi sant
     
  14. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    this is a immature "muslim"..he is not even sure of his own religion.
    Go to cPanel® for the answers to his childlike ravings.
    Sikhs dont beleive in "prophets" and "miracles"...this is Jagat TAMASHA of minor magicians..Sikhs dont want heaven or paradise or beautiful hoorans..SIKHS want MERGER with AKAL PURAKH the CREATOR.
     
  15. chk1

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    Where is the originality in the Koran?
    Prophet Mohammed was illiterate and once he recited "Gods Wod" it had undergone much change, even the words had lost their original true meaning.
    Why include huge chunks of the Old testament? Why not come up with something original?
    If you can go as extreme to say Sikhism is just a load of Gurus talking about God, well why copy the Torah and Bible and then make out this path is better than others because it is the only truth.
    The koran is made out to be the truth because jews were said the be "the chosen ones" and they clearly defied God and committed sins, and so muslims were sent to the Earth. However as well as there are those who follow the religion, there are those who are "corrupted" and that is true for every religion. There are those who sin and go against teachings. SO the Koran cant be the best holy book going and the best religion, otherwise every follower would be a devout muslim and they would never sin - whether or not there is a satan lingering around to "tempt" people.
    The koran could be described as another version of the Bible, it can be seen as another segement of Christianity.
    When it comes down to history, who is to say this angel visited the Prophet? How do we know for sure it existed? If you are going along what the Korans says, it does not provide sufficient evidence, because most of it copies the Bible and Torah and then the rest of it is repeated words. (like for example what happens to those who sin, and those who are non-believers).
    People live their lives based upon ancient teachings. Hinduism, one of the oldest teachings does refer to deities, but still believes there is one universal God, which for the time was radical.
    But people over the world live their lives according to Sharia law, and yet they expect the rest of the world to follow them and become Islamic states, why go backwards when we need to move forwards??? How do the Islamic teachings work? Is there any less violence in the world? Is it any more peaceful? The koran is supposed to advocate peace, yet there is no peace in our world. That is partly due to Muslims and partly due to others too. Why not update teachings? Why not realise that this separatist teaching is destroying our World? And why blame others for it and not make a move to bring more peace to the World?
    One does need to be a prophet and do miracles to be holy. One simply goes on an inner journey and finds God within. The Gurus did not declare their holiness on the level of miracles and performing magic.The Gurus were humble, they understood that Ego was the enemy of people and so by eliminating their own Ego, they inspired and encouraged people to follow their lead and meditate on the name of God.
    While the Gurus advocated peace, they left a message of love, love for one another and love for God. Many saints walk this earth today, many have in the past too. Not all of them begin their own religion or philosophy, those such as Gandhi, Mother Teresa leave a profound effect upon the World, yet they are ordinary mortals just like you and I. It is simply ignorant and narrow mindedness that leads people to believe one can one be holy if they are on this earth to reveal the Word of God.
    Ask yourself this: If the Word of God was so perfect, unaltered and unchanged (as the koran says) then why have other religions since developed? Why are there new spiritual movements developing today? Why would the Word of God be repeated in different languages, to different people? Because the religion has not been "working", it has not brought us closer to one another, but farther, it has not brought us closer to God, but farther.
    When you realise that everyone is in fact all one, that day you will no longer see the differences in anyone and will believe everyone to be equal regardless of religion.
     
  16. roopsidhu

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    Dear brothers,
    SSA

    Believe in Gurbani and let the slanderers say whatever they want.
    It's also happening by the "Hukam" of Akal Purkh. Just read what Gurbani is saying about slanderers.

    inMdk fUbw hm auqry pwir ]
    Or
    inMdkw ky muh kwly kry hir krqY Awip vDweI ]
    The Lord, the Creator, blackens the faces of the slanderers, and increases the glory of the Guru.

    Or

    ijau ijau inMdk inMd krih iqau iqau inq inq cVY svweI ]
    As the slanderers spread their slander, so does the Guru's glory increase day by day

    Or

    AwpixAw Bgqw kI rK kry hir suAwmI inMdkw dustw ky muh kwly krwey ]

    The Lord, our Lord and Master, preserves and protects His devotees; He blackens the faces of the slanderers and evil-doers.

    These slanderers are not religious people at all. They do not even understand their own religious values and teachings. They are jus miscreants. We should not get exited and do the same sin what they are doing. Just keep your trust in Akal Purkh, as it's written in Gurbani the slanderers faces will be blackened.

    Bhul chuck maaf

     
  17. ISDhillon

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    guru nanak was not a prophet guru nanak was a guru, a prophet is used by an angel, a guru only recieves orders from god.
     
  18. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    agreed 110% Brother

    Gyani jarnail Singh
     
  19. simranjeetsinghsimmy

    simranjeetsinghsimmy
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    waah bai waah !! aithhe v fatte chakki jaana tu ? bhajai chall ghoda bai aapa v tere naal naal aa ... :)
     
  20. sahilmakkar1983

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    Guru Fateh

    Suhan allah

    GURU is a person who is himself merged in GOD and cn show u the GOD

    the same thing is told in Quran as well as in SGGS
    both are equally great scriptures, difference is only language

    So i will write some quotes to explain this

    Bullleshah who was a muslim said:

    SHOH ASA TO VAKH NAHI , BIN SHOH DE DUJA KAKH NAHI
    PAR DEKHAN VAALI ANKH NAHI, TAI JAAN JUDAIYA SEHNDE AA

    means SHOH(god, vaheguru, allah) is within us, and without him there is nothing
    but we dont have the EYE(gurubani says it DIB DRISHTI/DASAM DWAR and Quran says it CHASHME BATIN) to see him, thats why we are bearing the distance from him

    the same thing gurubani says in special manner

    KAHE NANAK EH NETAR ANDH SE SATGURU MILE DIB DRISHTI HOE,

    DIB DRISHTI JAAGE, BRAHAM CHUKAYE, GURU PRASADI PARAM PAD PAYE

    so first we should try to understand the meaning b4 saying anything to any of our great-religions

    AVAL ALLAH NUR KO PAYA KUDRAT KE SAB BANDE,
    EK NUR PE SAB JAG UPJAYA, KAUN BHALLE KAUN MANDE

    Shri VaheGuru ji ka Khalsa, Shri Vaheguru ji ki Fateh
     
  21. Bijla Singh

    Bijla Singh
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    Bulle Shah was a poet and was greatly influenced by Sufism. His writing is different from Quran. Gurbani does not discriminate against anyone but Quran teaches that non-Muslims will go to hell no matter what they do and how good of life they live. Gurbani is superior and word of Waheguru whereas Quran is not.
     

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