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Opinion Is there any honour in killing for 'honour'?

Discussion in 'Breaking News' started by rajneesh madhok, Jun 23, 2010.

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  1. rajneesh madhok

    rajneesh madhok India
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    Is there any honour in killing for 'honour'?

    22 June 2010, 01:05pm ISTThe growing incidents of honour killing in different states, and now in the national capital, have proven that caste and its brutal ramifications are still prevalent in India. Many of us are plainly baffled by the incidents, often arguing that the phenomenon is at odds with the new and resurgent India that we hope and dream about. But is it actually for the sake of family honour? Who gets to decide what is honourable? What about our collective honour as a society? Will any law against honour killing be effective in the absence of a genuine will on the part of the people themselves? We cannot expect our political leaders to answer such questions in an honest manner. They have displayed their abhorrent dilly-dallying over it, preferring silence or collaboration for electoral gains. The onus now clearly lies on the responsible citizens of the country to raise their voices against a practice that defies the idea of an inclusive and tolerant India.

    Is there any honour in killing for 'honour'?- Debate - The Times of India

    Rajneesh Madhok
     

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  3. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    India is caste based society and no caste want its daughter marrying boy of other caste
    Whether people accept it or not but rural people support this type of thing and in democracy what matters is numbers.These people have numbers
     
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    Kanwardeep Singh ji

    Are you therefore predicting that this will continue for another generation after the other, and that there is no point in trying to do anything about it?
     
  5. kds1980

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    I don't know but as long people keep saying proud to be jatt,or proud to be gujjar then it will get worse.Today times now channel interviewed some people and many justified honour killings some are youngsters of this rural type background.One Uncle was clearly saying that with these killings youngsters will get a lesson not marry against their parents wishes.

    Narayanjot ji

    beleive it or not if you leave handful of westernised people the large majority of Indians still see love marriages as bad.If a Girl opt for love marriage then
    she is considered as characterless and become topic of discussion among
    relatives and her parents loose all the respect they earned through their life
     
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    Kanwardeep Singh ji - It is not a matter of whether I believe it or not. Statistics are that 92-95 percent of all marriages are arranged in India.

    How does a society address a growing problem of violence in the face of ingrained traditions that equate blood-letting with preserving honor. I don't think that discussion has taken place.

    Believe it or not, there is an old Italian saying, "Blood washes blood." In other words, a dirty problem could be cleaned up with a few honor killings-- Yes in Italy too. Eventually it disappeared but does continue in pockets of traditional life.
     
  7. kds1980

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    The fact is society itself is sanctioning this.When the case of first honour killing happened in Haryana and marriage was in same gotra, the politicians also went their and said that we also support amendment in Hindu marriage act that same gota marriage can never happen and these politicans were not villagers one of them is highly educated young industrialist Naveen jindal who said this.Even chief minister has said that youngsters should not marry within same gotra .So all politicians know that a large majority is against these marriage's and whoever try support these marriage's he/she will loose plenty of votes

    Now coming to law the court has already ordered Death penalty to honour killers in one case there is no punishment higher than this
     
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  8. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    http://ibnlive.in.com/news/honour-killing-victims-family-justifies-murder/125138-3.html?from=tn

    New Delhi: Two days after the national capital saw the death of three people in a case of honour killing, one of the victims' relatives spoke out to the media on Wednesday and justified the murders.


    "Killing some one is not right but this incident is not wrong. It is the right thing to do for the society. This is not wrong and we support it," said Dharamveer Nagar, paternal uncle of one of the girls' killed.



    There was no remorse, no fear for the law. In Wazirpur village of Delhi there has been a sanction for the murders. The people are silently supporting those who killed Monica, Kuldeep and Shobha in cold blood.







    What Mandeep's relatives say are actually sentiments expressed by their community. Most people living in the village are against their sons and daughters marrying someone from within the village. Some even go to the extent of saying that they would kill their children if they dare to defy their customs.


    Marrying outside one's caste many would think, is an old world mindset. What is shocking in Wazirpur village is that that mindset has been passed on to the young. Thirty-five-year-old Charan Singh agrees that death is the only punishment for those who marry outside their community in the village.


    "I will kill my children if they marry defy me and marry within the village community," says Charan Singh.


    Almost every one in the village echoes this sentiment. A misplaced sense of honour seems more important than anything else.


    Monica's elopement has had a bad affect on the village. Now every youngster will defy the family," says a villager Mahender Singh Khari.


    The police have now announced a reward of Rs 50,000 for each of the suspects Ankit, Mandeep and Nakul. Preliminary medical reports suggest that all three victims were killed on Sunday night.


    "Any one helping the police or informing us about the whereabouts of the three suspects will be rewarded Rs 50,000 for each accused," said NS Bundela, Deputy Commissioner of Police (DCP) North West Delhi said.


    While the hunt is still on for the three suspects, the bigger question of a mindset that places honour before life is even more frightening.
     
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  9. rajneesh madhok

    rajneesh madhok India
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    Honour Killing? Why? The murderers believe the victim has brought dishonour upon the family, clan, or community.
    Now the question arise.

    • Whether the defence of honour justifies killing a person whose behaviour dishonours their clan or family.
    • Whether the acts of violence, murder committed by family members against their children those have brought dishonour upon the family is justified?
    Honour Suicides:
    1. If honour killing is justified then Honour Suicides are also justified. Last year 80 Iraqi women in Diyala province committed suicide, to escape the shame of having been raped. ----- They chose to become suicide bombers to escape the shame, their rapes were planned in advance by 51 year old Iraqi women Samira Jassim, who confessed to Iraqi police that she oraganized their rapes so she could later persuade each of them to become a suicide bomber to escape their shame.
    Point of consideration:
    1. If the couple has the knowledge that they will be brutally murdered by family members on indulging in love affairs and marriage. What will be outcome of this trend. Whether the society is protecting their girls and women or they are giving birth to a new problem.
    2. The main cause of spreading of terrorism is unlawful society.
    Opinion:
    I agree to the point that the boundaries of society should not be crossed but the killing is not the solution to the problem. There are hundreds of cases annually in Pakistan. Where the couple don’t get away without being punished---The courts sanction them under religious contexts.

    KARO-KARI: PAKISTAN


      • Honour killing is known locally in Pakistan as Karo-Kari. In Pakistan three girls were buried alive last year for refusing arranged marriages. In Pakistan the Honour killing gets high level support, despite the Human Rights organizations condemn such incidents worldwide.
    INDIA:
    In India honour killing is in tradition in Punjba, Rajasthan, Haryana and Bihar. More than 90% cases of Honour killings are reported in these states. Honour killings are rare in South India, and the western Indian states of Maharshtra and Gujarat. Kindly note ther is no honour killings in West Bengal in over 100 years.

    Solution to the problem:
    1. The reformists should come forward and should play active role and influence the young generation and the society and guide the society with their teachings that the killing is not the solution to the problem.
    2. National Commission for women should address the issues in North India. The constitutional, legal and other provisions as well as challeges women face should be highlighted.

    Kanwardeepji,
    1. I come to point as per your post. Whether the killing justified by the victim’s relatives is justified.
    2. Is Mr. Dharmveer Nagar’s statement on the basis of society is justified?
    3. If we shall not remorse on our bad deeds and there is no fear of law then whether we our coming generations will get justice.
    4. Why the sanctions on murders have been given by the society members?
    5. Why the people are silently supporting those have murdered Monica, Kuldeep and Shoba?
    6. Supposing that we don’t accept the relations As most of the community people justifies the murder But the question is that whether murder is the solution to the problem.
    7. If the children dared to defy the family customs then the only solution to it is to get them murdered and the society will support that crime.
    8. Suppose we don’t accept that the children should marry outside one’s caste. The Casteism has been abolished by our Gurus, teachers. How we developed this mindset. Why the mindset has been passed on the young generation only. There are so many ways to persuade the young generation not to indulge in such type of practices even then the murder as punishment is not the solution to the problem.
    9. Whether the statement of Charan Singh “I will kill my children if they marry defy me and marry within the village community”---Is it justified.
    10. Do the friends support this misplaced sense of honour.
    11. Why the question of elopement arise.

    Whether the mindset that places honour before life is not frightening and unjustified? Kindly comment.

    Rajneesh Madhok
     
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  10. kds1980

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    Rajneesh ji

    India is a very ancient civilisation and it has customs and traditions going back to hundreds of years.Not all honour killings are happening because marriage out of caste .some are happening because of marrying within Same gotra and some because marrying within same village.With the concept of love marriage and liberal thinking is getting popular in village's
    Its obvious that result could be some time voilent.
     
  11. rajneesh madhok

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    Honourable Dr. Narayanjot kaur ji and Kanwardeepji,
    Regards,
    Still the point of discussion is incomplete as the Question is:
    Is there any honour in killing for “Honour”.
    How we can describe the Murder as a Matter of HONOUR
    In March this year a court in the northern Indian State of Haryana sentenced five family members to death for killing a young couple who married within the same sub-caste. It was the first time that the court had awarded such a harsh penalty in Honour Killing case. Now another two points generated with this decision:

    • The women’s rights activists hailed the decision as a landmark judgement, honour killings continue unabated.
    • Defiant Khap panchayats- Village councils that order such killings are calling for an amendment to the Hindu Marriage Act to fit their beliefs regarding sub-caste and inter-caste marriages.

    I agree to Dr. Naraynjot Kaur regarding her post of Arranged marriage. Such kind of prearranged marriage is being arranged by someone other than the couple getting wedded. Such type of marriages had deep roots in royal and aristrocratic families around the world including Europe also. The factors in arranged marriage is being considered.

    • Reputation of the family.
    • Vocation For a groom and bride, the profession like doctor, accountant, lawyer or engineer. , traditional value, income.
    • Wealth—Substantial assets of both families as the families prefer to marry another wealthy family.
    • Pre-existing medical conditions: Deformity, disease or disability.
    • Personality: Complexion,
    • Horosocope: Numerology and positions of stars at birth is often used in Indian culture to predict the success of particular match.
    • Psychological compatibility.
    • Diet: Vegetariansim and so.
    • Height: Typically the groom should be taller than the bride.
    • Age: Typically the groom should be older than the bride.
    • Language: language deemed to be an important criteria.

    When the above mentioned factors are being considered in arranged marriage. Then we hope that there are much more bright chances to get adjusted in life between the couple.
    Kanwardeepji,
    Now I come to the point. I have described the factors those are being considered in arranged marriage but in love affair those factors have not been considered. Whether we shall consider these factors as ancient civilization, customs and traditions or the real points to be considered for marriage are the factors as cited above.

    Now the considerable question is why the honour killings are happening. If we leave only one point of Caste and Gotra in the above mentioned 11 points. The rest of the points are also having great value.

    Kindly comment:
    Rajneesh Madhok
     
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  12. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Honour killings are happening because of society .Just look at present case ,Mandeep killed his sister after 4 years of marriage ,why? Because he was verbally harrassed by neighbours and relatives.Imagine a Family is living in Village with respect and their life revolve around
    their village and relatives
    suddenly their daughter do marriage like out of caste /same gotra which is not acceptable to family and village norms.What will happen after that?The story of their daughter will be discussed like a TV serial in village.Many will consider Father and brother weak as they cannot stop their daughter from marrying.Relatives will also ask 36 questions.The social life of family become almost cease to exist
    In that case
    it might possible that few fathers or brothers will take this extreme step.

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inspirational-stories/31130-sikh-family-gave-son-away-grieving.html

    Just look at above story in 1947 a father told his 17 year son to move to pakistan and without hesistation he agreed sacrificing everything.This was the extent of degree of control on children' lives in India.Suddenly now Indian especially the rural one are discovering that they can't even arrange their daughter's marriage as she is in love with some guy.
     
  13. rajneesh madhok

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    Kanwardeepji,
    In other words we can say that the rising number of honour killings reflects the Talibanisation of society-----Says Women’s rights groups and with their statements they said that the Central Govt should enact a law to put down the pernicious practice.

    Inhuman treatment for any society: Yes it is! This is not honour killing. It is caste killing. Moreover whose honour arre they talking about? Killing of your own sons and daughters in the name of honour is wrong. This is Talibanisation, if you defy the so called rules you are killed. -----This statement has been made by Ranjana Kumari Director of Centre for Social Research (CSR) to IANS.

    Our organization should start an online signature campaign requesting President Pratibha Patil to ban such extremist justice. So, I request to Dr. Narayanjot Kaur to please draft the application to be forwarded to the Hon’ble President on behalf of Esteem members to have justice for the young couples.

    If the voting on the subject is desired then the members should caste their vote whether we should start the signature campaign or not. This is all for safeguarding tradition needs to be quelled under threat of sever punishment. This is the time to raise the voice against the injustice. If one Khap Panchayat diktat so the others will also follow the same. These people should be punished severely.
    Now we should change the mindset. The sad reality is that this hierarchiacal caste mindset is present even in our law agencies.
    Kanwardeepji,
    You have mentioned one incident but there are two incidents One is A 19 year old girl and her boyfriend ware tortured to death by the girl’s uncle and father in north Delhi’s Swaroop Nagar area on June 13.
    On Monday a man and woman who were married four years ago against the wishes of the girl’s parents were found murdered in north Delhi’s Ashok Vihar.
    We are not talking about the villages, the conditions are deteriorating in the Metropolitan cities also.

    These incidents are shocking and a big blot on any respectable society.
    Following a spurt in honour killing incidents, the Supreme Court on Monday issued notices to the Central Government and some states on the rising incidents being reported across the county.
    Earlier such incidents were limited to Haryana and now in Delhi. This is the responsibility of the state govts to curb such events.
    Now I come to your point:
    It is unjustice what Mandeep has done. There are so many incidents when in life when one has to face humiliation from neighbours and relatives. One of my friend had eloped with his beloved about 20 years back and they solemnized marriage. The girl belonged to well-off Brahmin family and the boy belonged to Khatri family.

    Girls’ brother had also indulged in love marriage and had married with a girl from a low caste society. On solemnizing the marriage of son the family accepted the relation and on getting married their daughter the family felt so much humiliation. What action they took. They performed the last rites of their daughter in Haridwar and organized the Rasam Pagri in the town. Though a few family members and relatives attended the function.

    What will you consider this incident. Whether it is justified or not. This is the reply to your post that the family had been verbally harassed by neighbours and relatives. Yes I am not imagining but have authentic proof of the incident. The family had not murdered the their daughter or son-in-law.
    In above mentioned both of the cases the marriage had been made out of caste and both marriages were unacceptable to family and was against the family and society norms. What happened? Nothing. Whether we will consider the Father and brother as weak in the above-mentioned example. Yes in both of the cases the family could not stop in marrying their son and daughter. The people had made a hue and cry. Whether the social life of the family cease to exist. No?????????? The public had made the burning issue and at each and every nook and corner the story had been discussed.
    “It might be possible that few fathers or brothers will take this extreme step”

    -----This is not a solution.
    Kanwardeepji,
    You have described the story of 1947. This is 63 years old story---Means Generation Gap. The thinking life style and the traditions have changed a lot in this time. I don’t favour Love marriages but the society is adapting it now. The murder is not the solution to the problem.

    Rajneesh madhok
     
    #12 rajneesh madhok, Jun 25, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2010
  14. spnadmin

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    rajneesh madhok ji

    Is there any research or any policy writing that attempts to explain why this is the case
    This is not the first time either that I have read something comparable. This are in general (exceptions of course) the same locales (Southern India and Maharastra and Gujarat) where the populations are also more likely to participate in government initiatives related to literacy, family health, family planning and contraceptive education, and related social support for families.
     
  15. kds1980

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    Yes I know suddenly everbody is discussing honour killings because 2-3 incidents happened in Darling city of Media ,Delhi O/W western UP and harayana are common place for these type of incidents.they are not even reported in media and police.The incident you are talking about of Girl married to man from 4 years is also from wazirpur village.

    Well the community you mentioned in your case is Brahmin.Brahmin,Bania, khatri are not at all considered as voilent communitties so what they think is appropirate for their biradari they did it.Now look at majority of cases of honour killings,they are happening in jaat,gujjar known as voilent communities.I myself have heard words in Haryana "jaat gujjar kaa ilaaka hai kaat ke phenk denge"This is the area of Jaat gujjar ,they will cut you in pieces.And do I need to remind you that jaat, Gujjars ,and Chamars were the one that participated and killed sikhs 1984.There were estimated more than over 1 lakh people who participated in 1984 riots and they all from village of delhi and surrounding area's

    I am not saying it is solutions but murders do happen and majority of times their is hardly any justification of that.recently a friend killed other for a hundred rupee note.Similarly a B/F killed her G/F because she was from other caste whom she never intend to marry.The guy in this case was educated one working in MNC .Now what will you say in this type of case?
     
  16. rajneesh madhok

    rajneesh madhok India
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    Honourable Narayanjot Kaurji & Kanwardeepji,
    The concluding part of the discussion is based on the positive image of us with 100% expressing a favourable opinion that murder is not the solution to the problem.
    I agree to it that when media sensationalized issues, the matter had become the topic of discussion. If the media had kept quiet a bit then we would have not discussed the matter.
    Dr. kaur:
    I could not understand what do you mean by “is there any research or any policy writing that attempts to explain why this is the case” We are not making research on the subject or we are not the part of the team for policy matters. Our role is at the maximum to request the Government to make changes and amendments in Law for the benefit of justice. It is a fact that honour killing is in tradition in Punjab, Rajasthan, Haryana and Bihar. Yes more than 90% cases are reported in these states. Honour killings in South India and western India is rare.
    I hope you have described the factor comparable chart of the states of South and western India to Northern India on the point of Honour killing is literacy, family health, family planning and contraceptive education. Except Literacy I could not find out the reason of Honour killing in Northern part of India.
    Kanwardeepji,
    Why Haryana, Punjab and Delhi and Rajasthan. The incidents of Honour killings in these states are being reported in media? It agree to you that Brahmin, Bania, khatri are not considered violent communities and the system the Brahmin community adopted to protest is also note-worthy. Is n’t it?

    Rajneesh Madhok
     
  17. spnadmin

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    rajneesh ji

    I may not be understanding you. in this statement
    ... I was not saying that honor killings were connected to these factors. I was saying that there is a parallel, in that southern states according to government surveys, tend to make more use of programs related to literacy, family health, family planning, etc. And I was wondering out loud.

    If I did not understand you, please accept my apologies. But would you restate your point so that I can understand it.

    In the earlier part of my comments I was merely asking if you knew of any research because the cultural differences are of great interest to me. I had no particular meaning other than that.

    Yes - it is good that we all agree that murder is never acceptable.
     
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  18. rajneesh madhok

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    Honourable Narayanjot Kaurji,
    Whenever I come across the news of Honour killing, I read the news with a very heavy heart and question to myself why the honour killing in northern India don’t stop. The question is when family members murder another family member on the point that it has brought disgrace and shame on the family. The reason of murder is being disclosed that due to inappropriate relationship or marriage outside caste or religion. The other point is that the marriages are being held in all over India and why only four states are affected with this menace of Honour killing. What it indicates---extremities of life in India. With the extremities it has taken in to clutches from rich to poor and from cities to villages. When we are calling that India is progressing at a rapid rate, and so love marriages are becoming more and more prevalent.
    The main point of murder that I could understand is the Caste System---which remains as strong as ever, and the reputation of the caste is of utmost importance---But whether the importance of caste is more important than a human life.

    In recent honour killing of Metro city DELHI. The parents who murdered their 19 year old daughter and her 19 year old fiancé said THAT THEY HAD BEEN LEFT NO ALTERNATIVE. THEIR DAUGHTER’S DEED FRUSTRATED THEM, AND THEY DIN’T REGRET KILLING THE COUPLE.

    I, have to endure a lot of criticism and loss of respect in the family for allowing my brother-in-law’s marriage to go ahead. Though my inlaws live in Chandigarh but even then they were not in favour of inter-caste marriage. My father-in-law (Though Ph.D. in Physics) and mother-in-law (Ph.D. in English) were so adamant and not accepting the proposal of their son, it took years to accept---- their daughter-in-law. On my persistent requests they agreed to tie knot but with heavy heart, though I insisted that the childrens’ happiness is worth more than that of the people and society. Thank God, I am grateful that with the progressive mindset, they have accepted the daughter-in-law now.
    I am even more grateful when I think of the disturbing fate of those children who were killed by the people who were supposed to love and protect them, all because they did what comes naturally and loved someone else---who just happened to be unsuitable but still another human after all.

    Dr. Kaurji, I put the ball in your court and request you to decide whether the favour of mine for inter-caste marriage should be approved or not. The case again is connected with North India and I am the tool who helped the couple to get married.

    Now the couple is living peacefully. Madam if we live in South India or in Western part of India or Eastern part like West Bengal then no body bothers about the inter-caste marriage their. In the above-mentioned part of India the families are not much bothered and don’t interfere in the personal matters of the children. But in North India the family members are more careful in accepting or rejecting the match. The groom and bride’s approval is secondary, the decision is being taken by the family members. Though these relations are more successful than love marriages.
    Please accept my apologies for hurting your feelings
    Regards,
    Rajneesh Madhok
     
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  19. rajneesh madhok

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    Grandmom kills 2 girls over affair with cousins - India - The Times of India

    SONIPAT: Two minor girls were allegedly killed by their grandmother and two uncles, and their bodies were thrown into a canal, for allegedly having an affair with their cousins. While the bodies were found on Friday, the three were arrested on Saturday.

    The girls were identified as Chanchal (14), a school dropout, and her cousin Raj Kumari (12). The accused had reportedly taken them in a car on the pretext of visiting a relative. The two were allegedly strangled to death and their bodies dumped into the western Yamuna Canal near Badwasni village.

    Sonipat SP Rajinder Singh said the accused, Vidhya Devi, and her two sons, Suraj Varma and Chand Varma, have been arrested for killing the girls.

    Singh said the police were doubtful about the behaviour of Vidhya Devi's family members during investigation. The three later confessed their crime to the police. They told the police that the girls had physical relationship with their cousin and this had provoked them to take the extreme step.

    Rajneesh Madhok
     
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    rajneesh madhok ji

    It is heartbreaking. You know this is a tragedy for everyone involved. And the story makes me wonder what could have happened when the girls were much younger that would have educated and supported them, given them confidence, and a sense of a bright future? With that perhaps, just perhaps, the passage of years would not have brought everyone - the girls, their cousin, the family - to the point where an honour killings would even have to be a choice.
     
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    #19 spnadmin, Jun 27, 2010
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  21. rajneesh madhok

    rajneesh madhok India
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    wahkaurDear Narayanjot Kaur ji,
    The girls of merely 12 and 14 years old would have cried and pleaded. I am certain those tender children those had been brutally killed certainly had not having the deep knowledge of their offence. How can we describe these murders as “honour killing”.Oh God! The parents should save the girls but alas, they could not. Why?
    The cases of honour killings are regularly reported from Punjab, Haryana, Delhi and Western Uttar Pradesh, though it was uncommon in Delhi but now a-days Delhi is also in the news.
    The reason behind the killings we can assess that the mindset of the people is the same as in the villages, though they are living in metro cities and the People are deeply rooted in their traditional beliefs.
    As in traditional Indian Societies, women are often regarded as family property. Marriages are carefully arranged by parents and elders and relationships outside of caste are frown upon. But proximity to the city and access to education often bring in modern influences, sometimes creating a conflict between traditional beliefs and modern aspirations in the minds of the young. And these sometimes have fatal consequences, as in the case of Chanchal and Raj kumari.
    Though there are no statistics of the number of Honour Killings in India, there are several others go unrepoated.

    How the murder can be Justified:
    “We want strict punishment for them. We want the death penalty. We want them hanged” Whenever such incidents are in news the people used to raise their voice like this.
    Madam,
    This is really a haearbreaking incident. The tragedies are going on day by day but the poor children are becoming the victim of the lust of HONOUR of the society. It is really a very shocking incident the girls of 12 and 14 are so tender that they could not understand the good and evil and are not able to differentiate between the right and wrong. If they had done something wrong then the tender children would have provided the counseling. The elder members of the family would have guided them, educated them and supported to build the confidence and in this way they could have sense of bright future. The girls and the cousins would have been made to live separately and with the passage of the time when the girls reach to the marriageable age they should have been married and in the mean time the counseling by the family members would have made them understand the good and evil.
    The murder is not the solution to the problem.
    Rajneesh Madhok
     
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