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Hinduism Is Sikhism Hinduism ??

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by bulleshah, May 10, 2006.

  1. bulleshah

    bulleshah
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    The answer is 'yes'. In order to understand that one need to understand hinduism. So what is Hinduism ??


    Hinduism is not a religion and neither is Sikhism. The idea of religion itself is a western concept ?? In the Indian tradition, there were atheistic and materialistic schools of thought, like Lokayukta of Charvaka, Buddha, all of which get lumped under `Hinduism'. Obviously, if we take the Abrahmic idea of religion, atheistic religion is absurd. You can't really be a 'Christian atheist' or a `Muslim atheist'.Not so long ago you would be hung for heresy.


    Indian civilization is a much broader concept than narrow restrictive dogmas that define religions. Thats precisely why the Constitution does not recognise Hinduism as a religion because it's not. It's a process. It is neither a set of beliefs nor a set of textbooks or anything to follow. It does not assert that final emanicipation is possible through its means and not through any other. It is only a means to an end and all means, which ultimately lead to the end are approved too. Hinduism is just an easy name given (by some academics who love to define and record) as a blanket label to the mass of vibrating humanity living in Indian sub-continent.


    Many call it "A way of life." It is not an organized religion like Christianity or Islam. It has no founder. It has no Pope. It has no hierarchy. Just a lot of scriptures. In Hindu scriptures, you are actually studying about the history and culture of India, like in 66 books of the Holy Bible you are actually studying about the culture and history of the Jews.


    Hinduism and Judaism are mothers of all modern religions in the world. Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism and Zoroastrianism came from Hinduism. Of course, Jainism existed during Rig Vedic Period. Statues of Rishabha, the first Thirthankara and founder of Jainism was found in the Mohenjadaro, Harappa excavations. Islam and Christianity came from Judaism. Judaism, Islam and Christianity have Abraham as the common father figure. All three have many common prophets. There is even mention about Jesus Christ many times in the Holy Koran.


    Coming back to Hinduism, C.S. Lewis, the great author and theologist wrote, finally it will come to two religions. Hinduism and Christianity. The first [Hinduism] will grow absorbing ideas and concepts from everywhere and later [Christianity] will keep away from everything that is foreign to it. What C.S. Lewis wrote is very true.


    Hinduism has this enormous capacity of taking everything in its embrace: you can be an idol worshipper, you can be an idol breaker; you can believe in one god, you can believe in a thousand gods; you can have a caste system, you can deny the caste system; you can be an agnostic, atheist, or whatever else you like, and remain a Hindu. What can you do about it? It is this power of absorption of Hinduism, that it is even willing to recognize Prophet Mohammed as an Avatar of Vishnu, that poses the real challenge to other religions. Hinduism’s accommodation of different spiritual approaches is a problem for separatists of all hues.


    (This is yet another instance of how Hindus are "damned if they do, damned if they don’t". Had they been intolerant, this would of course be held against them, but even when they are found to be tolerant and accommodating, it is still interpreted as an evil design. When Hinduism integrates new elements, it is not proof of broad-mindedness, but of a strategy of swallowing the minorities. In the case of Sikhism, at any rate, the boa metaphor does not really fit the case: Sikhism has sprung from Hinduism, and it is not as if the two were strangers who met one day and then the one decided to swallow up the other. But it may be said that in the 19th century, Hinduism was reabsorbing Sikhism, and that it may yet complete this process in the future.)

    Scepticism is an integral part of Hindu civilization and its nice to know people like you keeping the tradition alive. The disbelief, doubts, and atheism of ancient India is summed up in the following lines from the Savradarshana Samgraha :


    "There is no heaven, no final liberation, nor any soul in another world,
    Nor do the actions of the four castes, etc., produce any real effect.
    The Agnihotra, the three Vedas, the ascetic's three staves, and smearing one's self with ashes,
    Were made by Nature as the livelihood or those destitute of knowledge and manliness."


    Hinduism cannot be destroyed, even if we burn every Hindu scripture and kill every Hindu theologian on earth. Hinduism or Hindu Culture is a very dynamic living, breathing Reality. Strength of Hinduism lies in its most amazing ability to adapt to different circumstances and different ages while maintaining its very strong continuity with the past. How does it do that? That is a billion dollar question.



    The Scriptures :


    The Veda's are 'A-Purusha'. meaning 'authorless'. Not they automatically got written but by apurusha they mean that no single entity or power or community can lay claim to them as belonging to them.

    The four Veda's are followed by the ten Upanishads which are followed by various literature(coz thats what they are) like Manu-Smrirti, Vishnu-Purana's, Vedanta-Sutra's(4,500 pages), Vimanika-Shastra, Sankhya-Shastra, The Ramayana and The Mahabharata, and yes the Charvaka's. The Yoga-Sutra of Patanjali. The Dhammapada, Aranga-Sutra, The Guru Granth-Sahib and the Dasam-Granth.

    None of the above scripture is to be considered as final. People who believe in what they believe in must also know that the Veda's etc. had emphasized that the ideas and philosophy was merely a discovery about a reality that had always been there. The authors who-ever they were were not bringing any new covenants from any God. The history of our religion or culture or the way it is looked at is not necessary for the principles we believe in to work. In fact, even Krishna or even the Buddha and Nanak stated that they was neither the first nor the last to have achieved the state of enlightenment. they also asserted that they were not God nor sent by any God as a prophet, and whatever they discovered was available to every human to discover for himself. Like the Law of Gravity.


    Hinduism tolerated Tantra and Charvaka philosophy. Started during Vedic age, Tantras consists of cosmology, erotic exercises etc. Tantra is very important and very vast. Sanskrit word Tantras means to expand. Tantrism researched into Astronomy, Astrology, Palmistry, Cosmology. Chakras and Kundalini power etc are the contributions of Tantras to the world. Of course Tantras also states salvation through sex. In any other religion scriptures like Tantra literature will not be tolerated. In Christianity, the first person William Tyndall who translated Holy Bible into English was mercilessly burnt at stake, and copies of his Bible burnt, since church did not like his version of the Holy Bible! That is why I take my hats off to Hinduism.


    Charvaka philosophy was founded by Charvaka. The most important book was Brihaspati Sutra. I am stating things in past tense since I am not aware if copies of this book are available in India. According to Charvaka, "Material world alone exists and our knowledge comes from sense perception". This philosophy openly propagated that there is no God, the Law of Karma has no basis and that the Vedas were written by clowns. It adds " Enjoy life while you can, for once cremated, you will never return to earth." There are still a lot more scriptures in Hinduism. I should say that there are more than 1000 scriptures in Hinduism......


    The concepts of utmost freedom of thoughts and actions is what attracts many to Hinduism. Hinduism never forbids any one to question its fundamentals. On one side, in Hinduism, you may come across people worshiping pests like rats, and still on other side you will come across concepts parallel to Quantum Physics and Neil's Bohr Theory of nuclear structure and reactions. On one side Advaita (There is only one) philosophy is discussed and promoted, still on other side Dvaita (Two, duality) philosophy is discussed and promoted. Hinduism never ever banished any one, since he or she wrote a wrong scripture or did not observe a particular ritual.

    There was never a Salman Rushdie (author of Satanic Verses) in Hinduism and never will be there one. Mahatma Gandhi wrote, even atheists can call themselves as Hindus. That is very true. In fact the Charvaka philosophy or Nastika philosophy, (existed during the Vedic period) founded by Charvaka rejected the existence of God and considered religion as an aberration. Voltaire in Essay on Tolerance wrote: "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it." Hinduism is the symbol of what Voltaire wrote.


    The Gita never commands anyone what to do; Instead it discusses pros and cons of every action and thought. Throughout Gita you will not come across any line starting or ending with Thou Shalt Not.


    "Ekam Sat, Viprah Bahudha Vadanti". (There is only one truth, only men describe it in different ways). - - -The Rig Veda - - -



    The Hindu Concept of God :


    Hindus believe in One and Only God Brahman which expresses itself in trillions of forms. Hindus do not believe God has human form or any other form. God is nameless and timeless. But there is nothing wrong to worship a God with name and form (nama-roopa), since man cannot conceive anything without any name and form. In fact, in the Shruti scriptures of Hinduism, God or Brahman has been described as Saguna Brahman (God-Brahman with attributes) as well as Nirguna Brahman (God-without attributes. In the Upanishads, God is described as Neti-Neti (not this-not that) method.


    During the time of Upanishads, when the Hindu Rishis (scientists of that day) said there is only One God, Brahman, they found out that laymen could not understand that concept. So they wrote Itihasas (epics) and Puranas [mythological stories] filled with many gods, with the concept that when you worship any God form, you are actually worshiping one and only God Brahman. Lord Krishna reiterated that point by saying, "Call me by what ever name you like; Worship me in any form you like; All that goes to One and Only Supreme Reality." So a Hindu when worshiping any God form is actually worshiping One and Only God Brahman. In Christianity One God expresses himself in three forms, Father, Son and the Holy Ghost.


    In Hinduism One God Expresses itself in trillions of forms.


    Regarding idol worship there isn't really any person [except may be Jews], who does not believe in an idol, image, or symbol.All religions have some concept of God with name and form, but Hindus alone have the courage to admit that fact.


    The Cross in the Christian church, the picture of Jesus Christ, the statue of Mary, statues of patron saints, even the black stone in Kabba are all idols. If anyone bow in front of any of them, they are breaking laws of Old Testament [LED . . . 26:1, and EX 20:2-5.] Idol worship is every where and I never ever met a man who does not worship something or someone. In fact, the first sculpture of Christ was in the form of a small boy holding on to a sheep. Now, everywhere in the world, people have pictures of Christ according to their culture. A loving young white man in USA, a tough man looking like a judge in Russia, a nice black man in Africa and a man looking like a typical man from China with a sheepish beard in China.


    I respect all those pictures. Believe it or not, all of them are idol worships. Once again, God is spirit...No word or image can describe or depict God or can encompass the greatness of God. God is neither the father nor the mother. Since man cannot conceive anything without name and form, man has the right to worship God with a form. At the same time, every worship leads to a God without any name and form in course of the development of the seeker in spirituality.



    Concept of salvation :


    Hindu salvation concept is different from Christian salvation concept. Hindu salvation is known as Self Realization. In Hindu salvation a person realizes that he is not the body, but the immortal soul (Atman) within. That is the reason why Hindu salvation is known as self realization or "Realizing that he is the Immortal self and not the perishable body. In Hindu salvation the identity of the soul is lost when it attains salvation. Hindu salvation can be compared to a pinch of salt trying to find the bottom of the ocean. The moment the pinch of salt touches the surface of the mighty ocean, it becomes part and parcel of the Ocean. Similarly, when a person seeks after God according to Hinduism, becomes One with God when he attains salvation.



    Hinduism never ever boasts monopoly on salvation. In fact, as per Hinduism, any one even an atheist can attain salvation. A Jew, Christian and Moslem can attain salvation, irrespective of whether they read any Hindu scriptural book.


    - -
    - -


    All religions are the result of the works of thousands of thinkers. Hinduism and Judaism are cultures and they are the mothers of all religions. New religions like Christianity and Islam took the best aspects of Judaism and made part of them. So too Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism took the best aspects of Hinduism and made part of them. In Christianity, there were several housecleaning in its 2000 years of history. Hinduism on its part, never had any house cleaning in its history. Since Hinduism never tossed anything away, in it you will see in it primitive religion as well as very advanced thoughts.


    I have repeatedly stated that Hinduism has the good, the bad and also the ugly aspects in it like any other culture or religion in the world. We have to boldly face facts and eradicate the bad and the ugly aspects, to better the lives of millions of Hindus, for years to come.


    The greatness of Hinduism can be summerized in few words. "Freedom of Thoughts and Actions." That is what Hinduism stands for.


    Thanks,
     
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  3. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    Dear Bulleh Shah Ji,

    bible has term Jews or Christian as belivers,Muslim is in Kuran,our Books have term Sikh but do Vedas have term Hindu in them as a beliver or even any of the Purana.

    Is not that term from Andhawar or dark used by Pagan farsis?
    hindu is secular entuty and we will have a good lots of non bleivers or nastik there.

    But we can not have non beliver Sikh.Although we do have faith that one day non belivers will also get salvation.
     
  4. J.A.T.T

    J.A.T.T
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    LOL.

    Sorry but this whole article is a joke. :D
     
  5. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Bulleshah Ji!

    Reading your views from scriptures is interesting.

    Please describe your enlightenment also doing all a favor.

    I will appreciate knowing whether you were Hindu or a Sikh when you became enlightened.

    Is it right that your enlightenment is older than Sikhi?


    Balbir Singh
     
  6. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    welcome bulle shah or mrsingh on sikhphilosophy.net.i hope you have good time here.
     
  7. bulleshah

    bulleshah
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    vijaydeepsingh,

    Come to think of it there is no such thing as 'Hindu'-Dharma though Dharma in itself
    is something life cannot move forward without. Dharma cannot be seperated from
    Karma(actions) of not just Humans but other things, animated and non-animated,
    as well. 'Lead', for example is needed and as long as it is needed it is supposed to be
    just that. Lead. When there is no use for lead in this world Lead will transform into
    maybe Gold. That's how it is. Dharmic's(Hindu-Dharmic's) in India throughout ages
    have impressed upon us to just 'Be' and not try to 'become'. Just being what you are
    means being good at whatever role you find yourself in. When a Son, be a good son.
    When a husband, be a good husband and Good father and so on. When a school teacher
    that's what you are required to be because your Dharma then is to impart knowledge.
    You cannot seperate your actions from your religion. remember Dharma but why call it
    Hindu Dharma. Call it just Dharma and try to realise your place in the world.
    We all are here for a purpose. Just like that lead.

    "There is no heaven, no final liberation, nor any soul in another world,
    Nor do the actions of the four castes, etc., produce any real effect.
    The Agnihotra, the three Vedas, the ascetic's three staves, and smearing one's self with ashes,
    Were made by Nature as the livelihood or those destitute of knowledge and manliness."

    - - - Savradarshana Samgraha - - -

    And there is no such thing as unbeliever. An unbeliever is a person who refuses to be
    a parrot prompted by other parrots. What he/she believes or not believes in doesn't matter
    as far as salvation is concerned. It's their Karma that matters.

    Thanks.
     
  8. bulleshah

    bulleshah
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    Balbir Singh,

    Buddha never was a Sikh. Does it mean he was a fool or any less enlightened than Nanak.
    And your argument that Sikhi has enlightened the Sikh is rather flawed.
    And what is enlightenment?

    The Brahman gets up every morning, takes a bath in the river or a pond and recites
    the Gayatri or some other mantra he has parroted and spends all his life doing that.
    The Granthi gets up every morning, takes a bath and recites ek-om-kar-sat-nam-...
    or some other mantra he has parroted and spends all his life doing that.
    But the Brahmin is a fool and the Granthi is an Enlightened Genius.
    C,mon.

    Beside how can you be so sure that Sikhi started with Nanak. Kabir, Namdev,
    Tirlochan etc...preceded him, didn't they? The word Sikh itself is derived from
    the sanskrit word Siksha and means a seeker of knowlegde.

    And besides whatever the Guru-Granth-Ji says was said before.

    "Ekam Sat, Viprah Bahudha Vadanti".
    (There is only one truth, only men describe it in different ways). - - - The Rig Veda - - -

    "The Divine Thread started everything.
    The knower of the Thread is a yogi, his Knowledge is beyond the scope of the Vedas.
    Pearls stringed together form an ornament. The Divine Thread holds together the Universe.
    The Yogi wears this Thread when he becomes aware of his Divinity.
    Established in highest state of Yoga, the yogi discards the external thread.
    The wearer of the Thread of Knowledge is never unclean. The Thread exists within him.
    Knowledge is the greatest purifier."
    - - -
    Brahma Upanishad - - -


    "The misguided ones who delight in the melodious chanting of the
    Veda - without understanding the real purpose of the Vedas - think,
    O Arjuna, as if there is nothing else in the Vedas except the rituals
    for the sole purpose of obtaining heavenly enjoyment."
    - - - 2.42 - The Geeta - - -


    "To a Self-realized person the Vedas are as useful as a small reservoir of
    water when the water of a huge lake becomes available."
    - - - 2.46 - The Geeta - - -


    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/gita/agsgita.htm

    The principles of the Guru-Granth-Ji are very much and decidedly Hindu.

    Thanks.
     
  9. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Bulleshah Ji!

    Quote "Buddha never was a Sikh. Does it mean he was a fool or any less enlightened than Nanak."
    Why the Buddha has entered this discussion. Please try to tame your prejudicing mind.

    Quote "And your argument that Sikhi has enlightened the Sikh is rather flawed."
    Please do not try to put your words in mouths of others.

    They can awaken nobody without the guidance of God known as Guru? This means nobody is ever able to realize Truth without becoming a Sikh (disciple).

    Some are not able to see God's Will in Brahmin and a Granthi's parroting scriptures. Have they realized God criticizing others?

    Quote "Beside how can you be so sure that Sikhi started with Nanak. Kabir, Namdev, Tirlochan etc...preceded him, didn't they? The word Sikh itself is derived from the sanskrit word Siksha and means a seeker of knowlegde."

    Normally a human being is born as Ustaad with a strong ego. Nanak Ji was a born Sikh, a student of God. Sikhi originates from God.

    Quote "And besides whatever the Guru-Granth-Ji says was said before."
    God has not spoken once.

    Quote "The principles of the Guru-Granth-Ji are very much and decidedly Hindu."
    This may be the view from an intellectual (Pandit), and Pandits are always lost.

    The message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is originated from God transferred through the Gurus. It has nothing to do with the Hindu one may have come across.


    Balbir Singh
     
  10. Sinister

    Sinister
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    Lets not hesitate and jump right in to your claims:

    Your argument seems flawed on many levels.
    I have noticed your concern about how western philosophy has labeled Hinduism as a world religion. This is exactly what Hinduism is.

    Your Claims:
    àHinduism and Sikhism are not religions
    àHinduism is a way of life, a way that adjusts to consume others because it is so open minded.

    No. This is intrinsically wrong; you should have started by defining religion before you proceeded to make your claim!

    A Religion is:
    1) A personal ideological entity designed to develop morality (what you have just expressed through your posts)
    2) An institution designed to unify a group of people under a common ideological belief system (usually to achieve common goals).

    It can be one and the other or it can be one without the other.

    Hinduism can be categorized on both levels, just like any other religion, (on the personal level and the institutional level). Hinduism does exist on an institutional level (although it appears as if it is not united on any front if we apply Verstehensoziologie we find out the exact contrary)

    Verstehensoziologie: A method of trying to understand someone trying to understand himself/herself.

    Lets do a case study of Verstehensoziologie:
    Ok, lets take the genocide that occurred in 1984. It was an extreme form of prosecution against a minority by the majority (the Hindu population/government). My question is where did this sense of unity come from that allowed for organized gangs/large mobs to carry out such actions? Hinduism (as an institution) is in and of itself the unifying factor that bound people to perform those atrocious acts of violence. There is no other explanation that could explain the situation? What was going through the mind of the man that was murdering his Sikh neighbor on the streets of New Delhi, obviously he was threatened that a certain institution was wronged (ei: his personal institution was threatened thus he was taking out his frustration)

    Now one might argue that nationalism united the majority of the people against the Sikhs? But then why were the Hindu masses the only ones carrying out the 'ethnic cleansing'?
    Tere exists another minority within the Indian state, the Muslims. The Muslim population participated in no such activities. Thus this was clearly a state of ethnic warfare; the Hindu pitched against the Sikh (with the Islamic groups twiddling their thumbs while sitting on the sidelines).

    When western philosophers refer the Hinduism they are referring to the Institutional level of Hinduism. What you state are all personal forms of Hinduism.

    And significant conservatism does exist within this Hinduistic entity-this is the reason why so many traditions and rituals have been maintained and can be characterized as ‘belonging to the Hindu tradition’! (Hinduism is alot more rigid and alot less fluid than you actually portrayed it).

    Conclusion: A sense of unity/solidarity exists on the institutional level within Hinduism just as it does in any other faith (What George Simmel called propinquity of the group). There is a solidarity that exists amongst the Hindu’s both in the moral and ideological state that is unique.


    Another claim:
    "Hinduism and Judaism are mothers of all modern religions in the world. Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism and Zoroastrianism came from Hinduism."
    This is a statement that I can agree on. There are many Hindu influences within the sikh thought, but one thing is true, sikh philosophy is predominately a negation of the Hinduism on the institutional level and also is modified greatly on the spiritual/moral level (Sikhi is more communal; with equality forming the bases of the faith).

    "Be do not become"
    Nope I disagree with this life philosophy. To become is in its very essence the purpose/driving force of life. Like you said above Sikhi is derived from the Sanskrity word sikhsa (pupil). The pupil cannot "be" he must derive to "become". And in this sentence of yours is the primary difference between the Sikh and the Hindu.
     
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  11. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh
    Das is past from Sangh Pariwar and presently also support Bajrang Dal,who are all unbouded to serve Hindus.

    but so far you have tried to evade the question.

    Which of your scripture talks Dharma or rithousness to be based upon regeoanl or racial thing caleed Hindu say which of you book talk of Hindu as a Religeon?????

    coming to rightousness it is univrersal ie Dharma is universal,And Sanatan Dharma was there in whole unioverse and smetic(only a Branch of Aryan faith) and Aryan Faith(not Budhism or jainism as they are more idelaogies in seciular nature) are nothing else b ut forms of Sanatan or etenal Dharma.

    Even if Hindu term for yuor sake das behold as froim indus(which is incorrect due to knowldge of khhete Mekh in pagan parsi language script which had Sa letter and arebic scrit has Se,Swad and Seen for Sa yet ,Be term Hindu Dharma you want to bind Dharma with soem race and say river indus.Not acceptable to bound truth with false created things as they will be destroyed.

    Can you give das page number of holy Vedas whre term Hindu is there(das did give link to holy Veda in one thread perhaps while talking to Grand Father Singhvj Ji on this thread).

    laslty our faith does not beilve in Karmic princplean and if you read Brahmsutra and account opn it by Adi Shanakar,you will find again that Salvation and Karmas or deeds are usless and what so ever Happens in donme by Purush(Akal) who is in all and who is not at all Hindu nor were forms of Akal like Rama or Krishnas.
     
  12. bulleshah

    bulleshah
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    Balbir Singh,

    >>>> Normally a human being is born as Ustaad with a strong ego. Nanak Ji was
    a born Sikh, a student of God. Sikhi originates from God. <<<<

    Ustaad is the Urdu translation of the Same Guru. It's all about language boy.
    Wahe-Guru is nothing but Param-Guru or Alaf-Ustaad. Its all about language.
    Every thing the Sanatan Dharma says in Sanskrit/HIndi/Prakrit the Guru-Granth
    says in Punjabi. Come to think of it nearly half of the Granth was not even
    originally composed in Hindi. Naamdev's shloka's were composed in Marathi
    for that's what his mother tongue was. Why even guru Gobind singh never
    even spoke punjabi.

    >>>> God has not spoken once. <<<<

    WE all know that and we also know there are Guru's and there are Guru's.
    There always was a Nanak who preceded Nanak only was called something else.
    And there is always going to be one to follow him.

    >>>> The message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is originated from God transferred
    through the Gurus. It has nothing to do with the Hindu one may have come across. <<<<

    This may be the view of a semi literate London/Toronto intellectual Granthi intellectual,
    and Granthi's are always lost. Read.

    Thanks.

    "The self-willed manmukhs read and recite; they are called Pandits-spiritual scholars.
    But they are in love with duality, and they suffer in terrible pain. Intoxicated with vice,
    they understand nothing at all. They are reincarnated, over and over again”

    “The self-willed manmukhs read and recite; they are called Sikh-spiritual scholars.
    But they are in love with duality, and they suffer in terrible pain. Intoxicated with
    vice, they understand nothing at all. They are reincarnated, over and over again.“


    "Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the
    devotees. He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas.(pg 1377)"


    “Kabeer, the Granthi may be the guru of the world, but they are not the Guru
    of the devotees. He rots and dies in the perplexities of the Guru Granth.“



    "The Brahmins study and argue about the scriptures; they perform ceremonial rituals,
    and lead others in these rituals. Without true understanding, those self-willed manmukhs
    understand nothing. Separated from God, they suffer in pain."


    “The Sikhs study and argue about the Guru Granth; they perform ceremonial rituals,
    and lead others in these rituals. Without true understanding, those self-willed
    manmukhs understand nothing. Separated from God, they suffer in pain.“
     
  13. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    In Gurubani term Pandit or Brahmin is also used for that person who by mercy of Akal understand Akal in matter ie Brahm.

    pandit or Brahmins which are termed in -ve terms are psudo Brahmins often race based.So can be said for So call Granthis.
     
  14. bulleshah

    bulleshah
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    Sinister,

    >>>> "Be do not become"
    Nope I disagree with this life philosophy. To become is in its very essence the purpose/driving
    force of life. Like you said above Sikhi is derived from the Sanskrity word sikhsa (pupil). The pupil
    cannot "be" he must derive to "become". And in this sentence of yours is the primary difference
    between the Sikh and the Hindu. <<<<

    Sorry. No matter how adept the Guru, he can never teach the crow to sing and
    the tortoise to run faster. Just as(like you say) Nanak was born a Guru so is every
    one born as something. It's impossible to be something which one is not. No Guru
    can teach the pegion to sing like a cuckoo. All a Guru can do is awaken the wisdom
    and the knowledge that already exists within the Student. The job of a student is
    to realise that which is within him/her and then just be.

    I don't think the Guru Granth says any thing other than this. It's impossible.
    Even God/Allah/WaheGuru/ParamGuru cannot change the plan midway.

    IMPOSSIBLE.

    Thanks.
     
  15. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    Das is sure that you can not be a Sikh or Singh and you do not have uncut hairs.
    for Sikh there is nothing impposible as our God is capable to do anything.

    why Das writes this thing here that in past due to such mentailty often Hindus were demorlised by invaders.Godless faiths like Budhists or Jains made them feel the power only in single unit and differnt while energy is limitless and same is in us.Once we are one with that then we can do anything.

    Say like Baman Avtar inpite of bering dwrof,he di wonder.Das wants you to reach that stae and Guru made Faith to let each human reach that state.
     
  16. bulleshah

    bulleshah
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    vijaydeepsingh,

    HTML:
    Das is sure that you can not be a Sikh or Singh and you do not have uncut hairs.
    for Sikh there is nothing impposible as our God is capable to do anything.
    
    Nowwhere in the Shri-Guru-Granth the doctrine of the five K's mentioned.
    Maybe Guru Gobind Singh said that but there is no documentary evidence.
    Not even in the Dasam-Granth which many people use the Guru's discouragement
    of idol worship. The quote selectively coz the same people say also doubt
    the authencity of the Dasam-Granth when it doesn't suit them.
    There is no compulsion in Religion.

    And if it really were true that God can do anything I don't think God agrees with the
    present interpretation of the Granth by the likes of SGPC and london/toronto sipahi clowns.
    Were Wahe-guru really in agreement there would have been more sikh in the world than
    the present insignificant number of 2.5 crore.

    Say what is the possibility that the Sikh faith anthropied(stopped growing)
    because of the five K's doctrine ??

    Thanks.
     
  17. hps62

    hps62
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    dear brother

    bullah ahah

    SSAKAL

    We sikhs have lot of respect and love for hindus due to several reasons. inspite the abberation of 80s

    however a khalsa (a way of life) is soverign by his very nature.
    He lives in many countries and contients but is slave of no one.

    Numbers dont scare him as he has the motto of sava lakh.

    dont worry about his number he is just 500 years young .

    A khalsa is a guradian of value systems namely

    1 Equality
    2. Justice
    3. Compassion even to his enemies. remeber the story of battle field where mughal soldiers were given water
    4. Fearlessness.
    5. Innovative in presence of challenge. The spirit of khalsa rose as a challenge to an unprecedent crisis which punjab faced by mughal invaders. They tried destroying our musics , language and culture. See how it has risen once again.

    Just watch the khalsa grow and shine like a beacon in mankinds destiny.

    He will be the darling of the whole mankind . He is not bound by boundaries of religion , caste , or any other class . he is the amongst all.

    As hindus you shall feel proud that he was born in a land which is in close proximity to yours. He grew learned and played with you in his infancy . but today he is the friend of all people of the world.

    with love

    sarvat the bhalla

    hps62:) :star: :wah:
     
  18. Sinister

    Sinister
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    >>>>It's impossible to be something which one is not. No Guru
    can teach the pegion to sing like a cuckoo. All a Guru can do is awaken the wisdom
    and the knowledge that already exists within the Student. The job of a student is
    to realise that which is within him/her and then just be.<<<<<

    The quote itself "be do not become" innately refers to humans, does it not? but you apply it between zoo animals????? Thats not a very profound/reflective/insightful interpretation of this quote.

    The job of the student is to become not only a basin of knowledge but a basin of morality. To strive and BECOME is the goal of a student. In Sikhi the goal is to become a moral sikh not be a moral sikh. Because the lesson of morality will never end, morality is continously developed thorugh human contact (its a never ending process until isolation or death).


    A human has boundless capabilities to become what he wishes to become. Nobody can "be" because there is no such thing as an anti-social human. To "be" would be the natural state of man (read anything on society by Toqueville or Montesque to get a better explanation).


    The Sikh guru's were not born with greatness (thats just some propaganda you read about) they acheived unrivaled greatness (in morality). How; through careful observation and interaction with others!

    Forget all this for another debate! you still have a thesis to defend?
    Your essay still lacks in trying to prove your thesis (ei that Hinduism is not a group collective: Read my first post), you swerved around much of what I had to say. Reread what I have written before.

    I concentrate on group formation; group formation does occur in Hinduism. There is a feeling of the collective and a feeling of solidarity that the faith brings to its followers (as divided as it may be).

    Hinduism is a religion as rigid and as conservative as many of the world religions (especially on the cultural side). The notion of Karmaian Ideology (the very fact that it has been perserved) is true tribute to Hinduistic conservatism (the idea that the perfect theocracy lives on).

    -I personally beleive your essay lacks a base because how can this 'group propinquity' exist between the Hindu masses. If they are all embracing and all encompassing as you so potently declare why have the traditions/ideologies been so rigidly perserved-
     
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  19. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Dear Friend ,
    do you think that 2.5 crore in 500 yrs is a bad figure ! well I dont think so !

    Any if you dont mind I may mention that Sikh was prepared by Tenth Master Sri Guru Gobind Singh to face and lead Sawaa Lakh 1.25 lakh so going by that figure I think sikhs are bit overpopulated isnt it !

    Jatinder Singh
     
  20. hps62

    hps62
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  21. Lionchild

    Lionchild
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