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Is Sikhism against People Who Use Their Minds?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by kds1980, Sep 21, 2006.

  1. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    i am debating on the other side with some people
    they says that in sikhi why bad words are written for people which uses their own mind (manmukhs.)everybody cannot follow gurmat then why guru ji wrote bad words for them?
     
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  3. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    Manmukh is one who follows own mind or ego.In us as whole world belong to God so Mind is not ours so Mind is of God and God only uses that.

    Yuo can ask those people that can they explain,what mind is? as per scince we have brain,while mind is more a sort of hypothication while as per Yoga mind is very small thing and somewhere near heart.

    when we die it leaves the body and is clubbed with soul so soul+ mind is individual spirit.When ego or mind is killed by mercy of Akal,we reach state of soul only and that is Akal and state is of alive while lving.Like mind we do not use our body but God uses the body and make it move and that body we thing as our own due to our mind/ego.
     
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  4. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    <<manmukh is one who follows own mind or ego.In us as whole world belong to God so Mind is not ours so Mind is of God and God only uses that.>>

    but if someone don't beleive in god but living an honest and truthful life
    the is he also a manmukh?after all we coudn't convince everyone about god.
     
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  5. max314

    max314
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    It seems to me that the understanding of the terms "gurmukh" and "manmukh" have been somewhat misinterpreted.


    First, let us start with the term "gurmukh".

    "Gur" refers to "guru". "Mukh" refers to will.

    Whilst many have regarded the "gur" of "gurmukh" to be a reference to the discrete Guru (i.e. the ten human Gurus and the eleventh perpetual Guru, the Granth Sahib), my personal interpretations of the wirtings of gurbani have lead me to believe that the "gur" of "gurmukh" is, in fact, a reference to satgur (True Guru) or waheguru.

    Therefore, to live under "gurmukh" means to overcome the ego of believing that you have any real control over your life and to submit to the will of the Universe.

    This doesn't necessarily mean that one should become amridhari (although if someone feels that this is their personal destiny, then they should not feel opposed to embracing it, since all our choices are the will of the Universe or waheguru), but simply that we should be aware that we are all a small part of a vast Cosmic Will that is and always will be out of our understanding and ultimate control. As such, we should go about our life duties (kirt) and raise our families (gristi jivan), but we should not repent over whatever choices waheguru has made for us, since everything is His anyway.

    Therefore, this means that a "manmukh" is simply one who refuses to accept his subordinacy to the Universe, and believes that they are in ultimate control. They are, of course, free to believe this. But one should not carry such ego if they are not prepared to face the burden of defeat. Gurbani warns that those who choose to endure this burden will feel pain when fate appears on their doorstep and they are unable to accept it.

    That is my view.
     
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  6. Arvind

    Arvind
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    Dear max314,

    It is a great pleasure to read your posts. Thanks for your presence here on SPN.

    Regards, Arvind.
     
  7. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    Well we have belivers with Duja Bhav ie thinking many things other then God.

    Then we have Sakat,who is meant by one considering onself as capable to do any thing.Weather with or without Faith in God.

    Sakat is derived from Shakti or power.Term Sakata in hindi means capable due to self power.

    If God wants all can get salvation and after manifestation is back to Akal,all will be salvaged.

    Yet if someone belvies that he is doing all,then state of Jivat Mukt is not there perhaps.
     
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  8. max314

    max314
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    An honour, dear friend.
     
  9. rajsikh

    rajsikh
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    it not only sikhism but every religion hate people who use his/her mind
    just for some knowledge and entertainment please watch this old classic,if u can
    name is
    INHERIT THE WIND
    link to commercial download site removedspnadmin
     
  10. adeep646

    adeep646
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    Gurmukh is one that has killed his Mann. he has no ego and they have united with Waheguru. by doing simran one kills their Mann. this is the most highly regarded deed "Karam" by the Guru's " Prabh ka Simran Sab te Ucha." without dying you cannot find God "Bin MAnn Muye Kase Har PAi " ;if the Mann does not die how can you find God.

    Also "Prab Ji Base Sadd Ki Rasna" that Waheguru himself comes and uses this body and speaks through a Gurmukh

    EVERYONE else is a Manmukh. a manmukh will be punished and taken by the Jamm. a manmukh is doomed to be reincarnated over and over again.
    personally my whole "gurmukh family" are really manmukhs. by Taking Amrit you are not a Gurmukh.
    A manmukh performs deeds and actions by taking a Vichar "thought" or getting one. so if i want to go to the park today it is because i received a tought from the 5 thieves or Kal or my own Mann or other. if i do go to the park it is because Waheguru Willed it, but i did not get a direct hukam from Akal Purkh to go there. instead i recieved a Vichar and acted upon it.

    i have found the path and wish to share the knowledge of the Akath Katha found at "Simran.info" this website has detailed explaination of the Guru's teaching is video format. check it out. if you have trouble understanding something you can email me.
     
    #9 adeep646, Aug 9, 2007
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2007
  11. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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  12. TGill

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    My Veiws---

    No one is hated by Guruji, whether he is Manmukh or Gurmukh.. Guruji can only love ... period..Guruji loves a manmukh as much as a Gurmukh...

    Only a Gurmukh retains that love and feels the bliss, whereas a manmukh knows nothing of that bliss (cos he is too much involved in his own ego) and hence have to feel the pain created by his own deeds...

    Manmukh and mind has no relation, mind is given by god to be used, and hence should be used to the utmost potential, but at the same time we should have the power to cut it off and when it wanders like a stupid and that can be done only by Guru's own grace...
     
  13. adeep646

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    everybody is Waheguru's creation. The Guru is our guide.
    think of manmukh and gurmukh according to the Gurbani. like i mentioned before.

    another example is if you are a parent you may know.
    there is a child who leaves home and never writes nor sends money when requested but shows great respect and hangs the pictures on the wall and does patth to them

    then there is a child who the parents like best because he listens to their instructions and request.
    the parents will say they love both children but we know the hidden answer.
     
  14. TGill

    TGill
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    Dear Adeep ji,

    The story you told about the parents and children does not hold true for the Guru. Guru is omnipotent, omnipresent and is doing everything ( these parents are not) . Then how can Guru have lesser love for someone and more for other when he is the one at the first place, who created someone to love him more than the other..

    Ek noor te sab jag upjeya kon bhale ko mande ... Guru sahib himself said that

    but also himself said that manmukh lives in hell and that is not cos Guru does not love him, that is cos he doesn't love Guru...

    So sikhism is not against people who use their mind... It just says that unless to throw away the falsities of this mind you will remain in hell...
     
  15. Lionchild

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    This concept is found in most of the other major religions, all of which refer to being free willed and rebelious, or submiting yourself to god. Though, free will and use and mind are a "grey" area, considering, we use our mind everday to influence what the rest of the day is like Hint: the law of attraction.

    Anyways, very good explanation, look forward to more posts like this.

    Btw, i'm still alive :roll:
     
  16. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    The word Manmukh should not be considered as Bad word.
    As a matter of fact the whole humanity of the world has been classified in two categories .One as Gurmukh and other as Manmukh.
    In Gurbaani Gurmukh and Manmukh both have been well defined.
    Gurbaani Quotes as

    Manmukh.........Se Manmukh Jo SABADu Na Pachanayee
    GuR Ke Bhae Kee Saar Na Jaanahee
    Bhae Binu Kiu Nirbhau Sachu Paayiae Jamu Kaadi Lahegaa Saahaa He
    pp1054

    Therefore Gurmukh are those well familiar with SABADu.

    Prakash.s.Bagga
     
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  17. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Having spent most of my life in a dionysian pursuit, whilst at the same time trying to do good deeds, this question has vexed me for years. I joined this forum as an atheist, and soon after ended up back as a sikh again.

    I abandoned the pursuit of pleasures for the simple reason that the more pleasures you chase, the more empty and worthless you feel, until, you get to the point where you cannot even look in the mirror anymore, the pleasure chasing takes over your life, you cease to measure it in any other value other than how much pleasure you have had or are having.

    At the end of the day, the fun and enjoyment you get out of being a manmukh, a slave to pleasure, gets less with each day, until you end up on your knees begging for peace and contentment and you realise the value of all the simple things in life, and you ask, you shout, why didnt anyone warn me of this. But they don't warn you, they expect you to follow blindly a variety of traditions and rituals that actually have nothing to do with sikhi,


    What the SGGS is saying is that to have a normal life, you can be a manmukh and there is nothing wrong with that at all. But, to have a super life, to know oneself, to know everything you want to know, to be in bliss, to be so high on life, it is like you are levitating, you need to be a gurmukh, the choice is ours, the difference is, we are aware of the choice, some are not..
     
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  18. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Prakash Singh ji, thank you. That whole page # 1054 is awesome!

    I am a Manmukh in certain moments and Gurmukh in others. Have to keep working to remain a Gurmukh.
     
  19. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    I asked this question 5 years back not now

    At that time SPN was different,

    KDS was different

    The participants were different

    I don't need any answer now
     
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  20. findingmyway

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    This whole thread makes me very uncomfortable. How does gurmukh or manmukh relate to whether you use your mind? Are people saying that the mind should not be used to be a gurmukh (blind faith) or are people saying that not using the mind to follow and focus on the gurbani makes one a manmukh? I am confused!

    Gurbani encourages the use of bibek buddhi-our intellect and discerning to understand the message of gurbani so not using the mind is not an option!
     
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  21. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Findingmyway ji, there is something there when the mind steps to the side. It has nothing to do with blind faith, faith or doubt.

    Mind maybe seen as ego-immersed. That's its nature, it is restless because it compulsively analyzes, compulsively judges, compulsively forms concepts about everything. All this judging, analyzing, concept-making and the root of it all, thinking, takes place in the realm of duality. The love for duality is God's Hukam.
    It is God-immersed when it is resting because it stops doing those things compulsively. There it sees that its attachment to it, is God's hukam. It then starts seeing God's hukam. Those who immerse themselves in the Hukam then maybe called Gurmukh.

    Those who continue with their obsessions and compulsions, maybe called Manmukh. Manmukhs if they start to see their obsessions and compulsions, as just obsessions and compulsions can become Gurmukhs but they are unaware of them. They live as if they are those obsessions and compulsions. They think they are something in the realm of duality. I am a good person. I do good deeds. I am very spiritual. I am someone who does simran everyday. I keep a nitnem. I don't drink. I don't smoke. How dare someone call me foolish? I am very intelligent. I am a Sikh. I have ancestors who were great kings and fearless warriors. I own a house and a car. I have X amount of friends.

    Manmukhs live in such thoughts. These thoughts are their reality.

    I am standing on a railway platform. The train of thought goes through the station. The other side of the train, the beautiful green grass, the splendour of clouds, suspended particles in mid air, the sweet voice of the wind, the rows of sturdy houses, brilliant bright streetsigns, is unknown to me. Only the train is visible. I am lost in the train. It keeps going. It's so long. This my life... this train. I do not pay attention to the gaps between the cars of the train. If I did I would see the reality. For me the train is the reality on the other side of the train. I have places to go, people to meet. I have no time to see the clouds. Screw the clouds. I have no time for actual meditation, I repeat God's name while focusing on the train. I don't know the sound of my own voice. It cannot be heard from all the noise that the train makes. It could cry for help even then I wouldn't know it.

    Was reading this shabad today. Don't know if it's related.
    ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ਘਰੁ
    सिरीरागु महला ३ घरु १ ॥
    Sirīrāg mėhlā 3 gẖar 1.
    Siree Raag, Third Mehl, First House:
    ਜਿਸ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਸਿਰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਕਾ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ
    जिस ही की सिरकार है तिस ही का सभु कोइ ॥
    Jis hī kī sirkār hai ṯis hī kā sabẖ ko▫e.
    Everyone belongs to the One who rules the Universe.
    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣੀ ਸਚੁ ਘਟਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ
    गुरमुखि कार कमावणी सचु घटि परगटु होइ ॥
    Gurmukẖ kār kamāvṇī sacẖ gẖat pargat ho▫e.
    The Gurmukh practices good deeds, and the truth is revealed in the heart.
    ਅੰਤਰਿ ਜਿਸ ਕੈ ਸਚੁ ਵਸੈ ਸਚੇ ਸਚੀ ਸੋਇ
    अंतरि जिस कै सचु वसै सचे सची सोइ ॥
    Anṯar jis kai sacẖ vasai sacẖe sacẖī so▫e.
    True is the reputation of the true, within whom truth abides.
    ਸਚਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸੇ ਵਿਛੁੜਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥
    सचि मिले से न विछुड़हि तिन निज घरि वासा होइ ॥१॥
    Sacẖ mile se na vicẖẖuṛėh ṯin nij gẖar vāsā ho▫e. ||1||
    Those who meet the True Lord are not separated again; they come to dwell in the home of the self deep within. ||1||
    ਮੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਕੋਇ
    मेरे राम मै हरि बिनु अवरु न कोइ ॥
    Mere rām mai har bin avar na ko▫e.
    O my Lord! Without the Lord, I have no other at all.
    ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    सतगुरु सचु प्रभु निरमला सबदि मिलावा होइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Saṯgur sacẖ parabẖ nirmalā sabaḏ milāvā ho▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    The True Guru leads us to meet the Immaculate True God through the Word of His Shabad. ||1||Pause||
    ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨਉ ਆਪੇ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ
    सबदि मिलै सो मिलि रहै जिस नउ आपे लए मिलाइ ॥
    Sabaḏ milai so mil rahai jis na▫o āpe la▫e milā▫e.
    One whom the Lord merges into Himself is merged in the Shabad, and remains so merged.
    ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਕੋ ਨਾ ਮਿਲੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ
    दूजै भाइ को ना मिलै फिरि फिरि आवै जाइ ॥
    Ḏūjai bẖā▫e ko nā milai fir fir āvai jā▫e.
    No one merges with Him through the love of duality; over and over again, they come and go in reincarnation.
    ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਏਕੋ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ
    सभ महि इकु वरतदा एको रहिआ समाइ ॥
    Sabẖ mėh ik varaṯḏā eko rahi▫ā samā▫e.
    The One Lord permeates all. The One Lord is pervading everywhere.
    ਜਿਸ ਨਉ ਆਪਿ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਸੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
    जिस नउ आपि दइआलु होइ सो गुरमुखि नामि समाइ ॥२॥
    Jis na▫o āp ḏa▫i▫āl ho▫e so gurmukẖ nām samā▫e. ||2||
    That Gurmukh, unto whom the Lord shows His Kindness, is absorbed in the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||2||
    ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਜੋਤਕੀ ਵਾਦ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ
    पड़ि पड़ि पंडित जोतकी वाद करहि बीचारु ॥
    Paṛ paṛ pandiṯ joṯkī vāḏ karahi bīcẖār.
    After all their reading, the Pandits, the religious scholars, and the astrologers argue and debate.
    ਮਤਿ ਬੁਧਿ ਭਵੀ ਬੁਝਈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲੋਭ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ
    मति बुधि भवी न बुझई अंतरि लोभ विकारु ॥
    Maṯ buḏẖ bẖavī na bujẖ▫ī anṯar lobẖ vikār.
    Their intellect and understanding are perverted; they just don't understand. They are filled with greed and corruption.
    ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਭਰਮਦੇ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ
    लख चउरासीह भरमदे भ्रमि भ्रमि होइ खुआरु ॥
    Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh bẖaramḏe bẖaram bẖaram ho▫e kẖu▫ār.
    Through 8.4 million incarnations they wander lost and confused; through all their wandering and roaming, they are ruined.
    ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਮੇਟਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
    पूरबि लिखिआ कमावणा कोइ न मेटणहारु ॥३॥
    Pūrab likẖi▫ā kamāvaṇā ko▫e na metaṇhār. ||3||
    They act according to their pre-ordained destiny, which no one can erase. ||3||
    ਸਤਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਗਾਖੜੀ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇ
    सतगुर की सेवा गाखड़ी सिरु दीजै आपु गवाइ ॥
    Saṯgur kī sevā gākẖ▫ṛī sir ḏījai āp gavā▫e.
    It is very difficult to serve the True Guru. Surrender your head; give up your selfishness.
    ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਹਿ ਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੇਵਾ ਪਵੈ ਸਭ ਥਾਇ
    सबदि मिलहि ता हरि मिलै सेवा पवै सभ थाइ ॥
    Sabaḏ milėh ṯā har milai sevā pavai sabẖ thā▫e.
    Realizing the Shabad, one meets with the Lord, and all one's service is accepted.
    ਪਾਰਸਿ ਪਰਸਿਐ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਹੋਇ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਇ
    पारसि परसिऐ पारसु होइ जोती जोति समाइ ॥
    Pāras parsi▫ai pāras ho▫e joṯī joṯ samā▫e.
    By personally experiencing the Personality of the Guru, one's own personality is uplifted, and one's light merges into the Light.
    ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਆਇ ॥੪॥
    जिन कउ पूरबि लिखिआ तिन सतगुरु मिलिआ आइ ॥४॥
    Jin ka▫o pūrab likẖi▫ā ṯin saṯgur mili▫ā ā▫e. ||4||
    Those who have such pre-ordained destiny come to meet the True Guru. ||4||
    ਮਨ ਭੁਖਾ ਭੁਖਾ ਮਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਮਤ ਤੂ ਕਰਹਿ ਪੂਕਾਰ
    मन भुखा भुखा मत करहि मत तू करहि पूकार ॥
    Man bẖukẖā bẖukẖā maṯ karahi maṯ ṯū karahi pūkār.
    O mind, don't cry out that you are hungry, always hungry; stop complaining.
    ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰੀ ਸਭਸੈ ਦੇਇ ਅਧਾਰੁ
    लख चउरासीह जिनि सिरी सभसै देइ अधारु ॥
    Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh jin sirī sabẖsai ḏe▫e aḏẖār.
    The One who created the 8.4 million species of beings gives sustenance to all.
    ਨਿਰਭਉ ਸਦਾ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੈ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਸਾਰ
    निरभउ सदा दइआलु है सभना करदा सार ॥
    Nirbẖa▫o saḏā ḏa▫i▫āl hai sabẖnā karḏā sār.
    The Fearless Lord is forever Merciful; He takes care of all.
    ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੁਝੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥੫॥੩॥੩੬॥
    नानक गुरमुखि बुझीऐ पाईऐ मोख दुआरु ॥५॥३॥३६॥
    Nānak gurmukẖ bujẖī▫ai pā▫ī▫ai mokẖ ḏu▫ār. ||5||3||36||
    O Nanak, the Gurmukh understands, and finds the Door of Liberation. ||5||3||36||
     
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