Is SGGS God?

[carolineislands]

Thank you so much. And I do apologize if it seems I am focusing too much on differences. I am a cultural anthropologist and I'm sure this will always color my methods of learning and affect the things I am interested in finding out. I'm also interested in inter (and intra) cultural conflict resolution and peace studies. It's natural for me to want to examine these things.

Very interesting point about there not being clergy in Sikhism. The people you mentioned are probably more like administration, right? And I also think one of the most wonderful things about Sikhi is that it encourages people to use their mind and make their own decisions according to their own understanding.

I am concerned with the conflict, though. I've watched a few videos of violence between Sikhs and people with orange headbands... RSS? Hindutva? But I noticed there were a lot of people in Sikh dastar on both sides of the conflict. I have gotten information from people here who represent the "mainstream" Sikh point of view, and I would not like to get some information from the other point of view. I mean, is it true that the Namdhari Sikhs are in cahoots with Hindutva? If so, are they a part of the violence towards mainstream Sikhs? Or are they simple getting some support from the government and perhaps have nothing to do with the violence against mainstream Sikhs? I understand that Sikhs are concerned about the attempts to be absorbed into political Hinduism -- but is Khalastan the only way that will happen? Why is there so much contraversy around the idea of Khalistan? Is it because Punjab is such a rich agricultural area?

These are a few of the questions I would like to answer.

I'm not freaking out about it. I just want to know more about it so I'll be somewhat informed.

Thank you!!!!

 

[spnadmin]

Thank you so much. And I do apologize if it seems I am focusing too much on differences. I am a cultural anthropologist and I'm sure this will always color my methods of learning and affect the things I am interested in finding out. I'm also interested in inter (and intra) cultural conflict resolution and peace studies. It's natural for me to want to examine these things. Yes, anthropologists look for patterns, and they then try to understand what is distinctive, unique, individual and unusual within the patterns. Otherwise we are just dealing in stereotypes.

Very interesting point about there not being clergy in Sikhism. The people you mentioned are probably more like administration, right? Not exactly administration. But Nam Jap can explain this better. His father was a granthi. And I also think one of the most wonderful things about Sikhi is that it encourages people to use their mind and make their own decisions according to their own understanding.

I am concerned with the conflict, though. I've watched a few videos of violence between Sikhs and people with orange headbands... RSS? Hindutva? But I noticed there were a lot of people in Sikh dastar on both sides of the conflict. I have gotten information from people here who represent the "mainstream" Sikh point of view, and I would not like to get some information from the other point of view. I mean, is it true that the Namdhari Sikhs are in cahoots with Hindutva? Historically, the Namdhari sided with Gandhi to oust the British. And they did not align themselves with other groups that opted to reject Gandhi's political strategies. Those who decided to opt out did so with some justification, because Gandhi was no friend of Sikhism or Sikhs. But this does not make a group Hindutsva. Personally, I do not agree with this at all. The Namdhari are a sect and they are very gentle people. Today they are very "green" and they are fervently devoted to seva. Nontheless, they pursue practices and beliefs that make them distinct from followers of Shabad Guru. The differences are fundamental differences. The differences are both religious and cultural. They also have a history of fighting for liberation from oppressors. That history is part of how they describe their identity as a people, as Namdhari.If so, are they a part of the violence towards mainstream Sikhs? Or are they simple getting some support from the government and perhaps have nothing to do with the violence against mainstream Sikhs?
Where did you read/hear that Namdhari are in "cahoots" with Hindutsva? I understand that Sikhs are concerned about the attempts to be absorbed into political Hinduism -- but is Khalastan the only way that will happen? Why is there so much contraversy around the idea of Khalistan? Is it because Punjab is such a rich agricultural area? We have several respected forum members who can speak to this very eloquently.

These are a few of the questions I would like to answer.

I'm not freaking out about it. I just want to know more about it so I'll be somewhat informed.

Thank you!!!!

There is a body of historical literature that you as a cultural anthropologist would want to read. You know as an anthropologist that cultures evolve over time and are always in contact with other cultures. Because of this, structural changes occur and changes in beliefs and defining activities occur in tandem. It is inevitable. It is hard to understand a culture today without knowing the history of a people and a place, and the relationship that they have in the present with their past. What I have offered is very simplistic information from the Internet. There is better stuff to read in this regard, but there isn't time to share all. Indeed, by the time of Guru HarGobind, Sikhs understood that they were in a way destined to be warriors. By the time of the raj, Sikh were legendary as warriors. But the cultural history of Sikhism is not completely a history of violence; sometimes the "violence" was in the service of a just cause, and therefore not "violence" but "a just war". Sikhs in the "maintstream" might not themselves understand the differences between Sikhism today, and how it was practiced even 100 years ago. Or surprisingly, how many practices there are today that go back in time as shared cultural experiences in the Punjab. A question I would ask is who is this "mainstream" -- In Canada, Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, the US, India, the UK? Even the immigration of Sikhs from the Punjab to other parts of the world tells a story of how people changed and adapted to new situations yet retained cultural patterns from the past. The story of Sikhism is rich and Sikhs are diverse.

 

[spnadmin]

Caroline ji, futurekaur ji,

This has been one of the most interesting threads lately. And I have enjoyed my interactions with both of you so much. Both of you have pushed me to do research and think and reflect. That is a growth experience for me and one that has no price.

Just as a note. I won't be participating any longer, so there is no conflict between my role as moderator and my role as participant. Will miss these conversations.

 

[futurekaur]

aw don't go AntoniaJi...
If anyone would like the book by Sureet Kaur "The Sikh Way to God Realization" in the U.S. you can get it through your local public library via Interlibrary loan. Here is the WorldCat number:67359590

It's not very long, about 175 pages. She explains concepts extremely clearly & helpfully. The book is divided like this: Sikhi World View, The Purpose of Human Life, Gurmat Marg, the Stages of Spiritual Life. She supports her views by quoting prominent scholars, the Gurus and of course the SGGS. It's terrific.

 

[carolineislands]

"Mainstream Sikhs" is a phrase I learned on this forum. Until I came here I had no idea there was such a distinction. From what I can tell it means Sikhs who follow the rehat maryada as defined by the leaders of the majority group of Sikhs. Sorry I can't describe it any better. You'll have to ask Jasleen and Harjas -- I think those are the people who have used that phrase in the posts I have read here.

Forgive me if I am wrong. But they would be able to explain what that means. It's not really one of my terms, that's why I usually put quotation marks around it because I'm not certain of the validity of the concept.

 

[carolineislands]

Caroline ji, futurekaur ji,

This has been one of the most interesting threads lately. And I have enjoyed my interactions with both of you so much. Both of you have pushed me to do research and think and reflect. That is a growth experience for me and one that has no price.

Just as a note. I won't be participating any longer, so there is no conflict between my role as moderator and my role as participant. Will miss these conversations.

Thank you. I'll miss your posts! But I'm going to be a little more scarce as well. My husband and I have some work to do to prepare for our next trip to Haiti, and it's actually better for me not to get too embroiled in forums anyhow... sometimes it has a way of hindering my spiritual growth. Thank you for always being so reasonable and supportive. You have a very gracious way of seeing things from all sides and I really love that in a person. I have a lot of respect for you.

 

[spnadmin]

Thank you. I'll miss your posts! But I'm going to be a little more scarce as well. My husband and I have some work to do to prepare for our next trip to Haiti, and it's actually better for me not to get too embroiled in forums anyhow... sometimes it has a way of hindering my spiritual growth. Thank you for always being so reasonable and supportive. You have a very gracious way of seeing things from all sides and I really love that in a person. I have a lot of respect for you.

I know what you mean about spiritual growth. Haiti. WoW!!! You are right on!

 

[carolineislands]

I've lived and worked in Haiti off and on for about 12 years now. In some ways I'm more comfortable there than I am here. I can tell I'm getting older though because the general comfort level (somewhere between 0 and -10) is a little harder on me than it used to be. Carrying water, cooking over a fire, walking everywhere in tropical heat with very little potable water available, bugs eating you alive, washing clothes by hand, bathing with about 3 gallons of water in a bucket and a cup, tragedy and suffering everywhere... and yet the Haitian people are the most thankful, joyous people I have ever known. When a Haitian wakes up in the morning the first thing they say is "Bondye bon" - 'God is good.' Even if their child died the day before or they don't know where they're going to get their next meal, or if they haven't eaten for days... if you wake up in the morning with a chance at another day you thank God for that incredible blessing. I've learned so much from the Haitian people. My life is so much richer when I am there in the trenches with them. Here I have comfort but the lifestyle feels so shallow and we are so distant from each other. In Haiti life is so immediate and people are so connected... I don't know if I'll get too old for it one day or not. We're thinking about building a little house for our retirement in a little village on the shore.

God knows. And whatever he gives us to do I believe he'll give us the strength to do it.

Life is all about serving others. It really is. No matter how big your problems seem to be, when you get busy serving others the problems all shrink away.

I'm thinking about organizing a program to take troubled young adults to Haiti to work with us for a while. Get them out of the streets and away from the thugs and take them to Haiti and let them help us pick up dying children off the street and run all over the country trying to find food and medicine for them. I think they'd come back from that trip totally changed. I've had this idea in my heart for a long time.

My husband has been playing Haitian music all day -- we're both getting kinda homesick. Time to go again.

 

[spnadmin]

Carolineislands ji

I think you are talking Sikhi to me. At least that is how I hear it. In fact, best thing I heard all day.

 

[futurekaur]

Beautiful CarolineJi;
that is beautiful seva. Taking youth with you is double wonderful seva.

 

[carolineislands]

I think you are talking Sikhi to me. At least that is how I hear it. .

That is pretty much how I understand it too. After all my questions and collecting information and thinking it all over, at the end of the day, it really is quite simple.

Love and Respect to YOU!

 

[carolineislands]

Beautiful CarolineJi;
that is beautiful seva. Taking youth with you is double wonderful seva.

The funny thing is that I always receive so much more than I give. The first time I went to Haiti I had so many ideas about all the wonderful things I was going to do for people etc... you know, visions of Mother Theresa and all that. I was supposed to be there for two months -- LOL -- I didn't set foot on American soil for a couple of years. I went to visit an orphanage for kids with disabilities, one of the babies needed a diaper change and the next thing I knew my return ticket had expired. I lived there with a little cot in the corner of that orphanage for two years and I learned so much from those kids.. I can never explain it. They taught me Creole, they taught me Afro-Caribbean dance, they taught me the drum rythms to the hymns and most of all, they taught me about service. After a while I realized that they were doing me much more of a service than I ever could do for them.

In that orphanage, we didn't have "employees" to help take care of the kids. There were 24 of them and 12 had severe to profound disabilities. The director of the orphanage was almost never there because of the demands of constantly trying to get enough food, medicine and supplies to take care of everybody. The rest was up to me and the kids. So everybody just helped each other. The kids that could walk pushed the kids who couldn't, the kids who couldn't walk but could feed themselves fed the kids who couldn't feed themselves, the kids that were strong and able bodied mopped the floors and washed dishes and bathed the kids that were smaller or disabled. One of the kids who was older and stronger had a seizure disorder but he got up every morning before daylight and went to the nursery where the kids with the worst disabilities slept. There were around 12 to 13 of them most of the time. He would warm water up on the fire and start changing nasty diapers. He cleaned up all those kids and nasty stinking diapers and bathed them all and put clean clothes on them and would take them all out to the sun room one by one. He sang the whole time. He sang while he was mopping, while he was working and washing. He didn't even know who his parents were because he was abandoned at such a young age. He was the happiest person I've ever known.
There was also a young man who had autism... pretty severe. He was non-verbal and had a lot of behavioral issues. Once when I was really down and depressed he was sort of hovering over me and pacing around me, then he grabbed my hand and started dragging me up to the top of the orphanage. This place was in the mountains of Haiti (Haiti is very mountainous and beautiful). He dragged me over to the edge of the roof and stopped there for a minute. He looked out across the beautiful horizon and slowly reached his hand out towards the horizon and made a slow, graceful sweep with open palm as though he were displaying the scene to me. Then he just sighed and dropped my hand and walked away.
God will come to you in the most unexpected ways sometimes. And I think its very much like that -- when you think you are doing something for him that's when he makes you understand that really it is the other way around. Those kids made me realize that when you serve others you really are serving God and in the long run you end up getting more than you give.