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Is our obsession with Guru taking us further away from Creator

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Harry Haller, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Gurfatehji

    In my opinion, it was never the Gurus intention to turn themselves into Gods, to be worshipped or to be put onto a pedestal. I believe that the Gurus had no special powers, no supernatural powers, they had just managed to achieve the state of Naam, and wanted to share that with us, without the glory, without the recognition.

    The road to Naam can now be reached by one on one instruction from the 11th Guru.

    The message seems clear to me, Live by Hukam, reject all ritual, contemplate Creator and Creation, live your life in consonance.

    However, as Sikhs, do we concentrate too much on the messenger and not enough on the message?
     
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  3. Ishna

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    Harry bhaji

    Can you give an example of where you think people are focusing on the messenger instead of the message?

    I think your title might be a little misleading. Guru is essential to Sikhi. What is a Sikh without a Guru? What is a student without a teacher?

    I think the problem is that the word Guru is used to describe four things:
    1. Our beloved human Guru Jios
    2. Our treasure Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
    3. The Guru within us
    4. Guru the Creator

    Number 3 is where the money's at. The Guru within (the presence of Creator within) is what we need to listen to, to be able to sense Naam throughout everything.

    But because the one word - Guru - is used to describe Guru Nanak - Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the ideas are blurred, people are easily confused (I know I am!!!).

    I hope I'm making sense.

    You asked, do we concentrate too much on the messenger and not the message -- some people probably.

    It's like a kitchen.

    The kitchen is life. The kitchen gadgets are what we have to work with in life. The recipe book is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Our actions are the ingredients.

    Without understanding the recipes and cooking techniques described in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, we won't know which ingredients to put into which bowl and how to make a naam cake. But it takes learning before one becomes a master chef, and then it comes from the inside, you don't need the recipe book, the recipe book is inside you.

    You're not going to become a great chef by worshipping the recipe book, or reading the recipe for white sauce x number of times without actually making it, you can read the recipe book cover-to-cover and have your friend reading it cover-to-cover at the same time and still not know how to cook. I think that's what you might be trying to say?

    Okay that's all a really tragic analogy.

    Guru is 100% necessary to Sikhi. Without the Guru, we're like a person ignorant of cooking in a kitchen with a bag of flour and a whisk.
     
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    #2 Ishna, Jul 9, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Sure sis,

    The many Gurdwaras set up to commemorate an event, my father was telling me of one such, which exists purely because Guru Gobind Singhji tethered his horse to a tree there.Apparently there is much fuss made of this tree, it is practically worshipped.

    The inclusion of photographs of the Gurus in many Gurdwaras, of course, we must respect our Gurus, but should we not respect them as they asked to be respected? In my view the proper respect they asked for was to accept Creator and the Hukam of Creator, not focus on them instead.


    it is a students role to learn from the teacher not worship him, I see many Gurdwaras encouraging this diversion,

    In the context of this post, I am referring to our beloved human masters, those that have shone a light where darkness exists, whose word is forever enshrined in the SGGS, and whose essence lives in us all. Personally I believe worship is through the physical act of following Hukam, rather than physical displays of worship, or through prayer. Through the following of Hukam, I believe we get closer to Guru the Creator.

    Sisji, it is my personal belief that we make it too hard for ourselves. Following Hukam , in my view, is one of the many paths to Naam. You do not need anything other than the ability to connect with the Guru inside, and then just listen and follow. I do not suppose it will make you a master chef, but if you all want is dal roti, then I guess it is how honest, truthful, loving, kind, you can be whilst cooking.


    The Guru within, and the Shabad Guru are absolutely vital, there is no question of that, I am talking only of the time, energy and attention spent in sakhis, (most of which are not true), rumours about the Gurus lives, personal traits, display of Photos, etc etc
     
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  5. Ishna

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    I agree with you about the idolization of human Gurus. It's not the right idea. Gurbani is very clear about that. If Sakhis were important, we'd find them in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    Guru jis taught to accept hukam, and naam helps us do that. We don't get to naam without listening to the Guru inside us. Like you said:

    Don't we have to follow hukam regardless? If hukam is the laws of nature, or the consequences of our actions, we can't really get around it. I thought the choice is in how we accept it (or not). To me, love is worship.

    Are you saying we don't need Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

    I've been working too much. I'm incoherent. *falls asleep on keyboard *
     
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  6. Harry Haller

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    No, I do not buy this, our fate is in our own hands, but if we give our best, and act within Hukam, then we have nothing to fear, yes, bad things may happen, but acting out of Hukam can bring forth a lot more bad things, eg, drinking, smoking, casual sex, are all outside of Hukam for a reason, not that Creator smiles on you and blesses you with a shabash, but because drink can warp your logic, smoking and casual sex affects your health.

    The world is our oyster!

    I am saying that there are certain types that get more concerned with the physical aspects of the SGGS than the content. It is the content that is Guru, not the physical.
     
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  7. Ishna

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    I humbly disagree with you brother, but it could be due to my lack of understanding.

    My understanding of hukam is that it is beyond description. We are all firmly within the confines of hukam like one big web. Hukam is the natural order, and consequense. It is the mechanism within which everything exists and only the creator is greater than it. You can live totally within hukam your whole life, but sh!t will still happen to you (Dhan Dhan Guru Arjun Dev Ji for example).

    Doing the right things is simply seeing that good actions generally provide good consequences. Good actions, per hukam, bring us closer to naam. Guru inside helps us discern this. Eventually by grace the penny drops for the incredibly lucky of us and we merge in naam, see everything as hukam, and have contentment.

    That is currently my meager understanding.
     
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  8. Ishna

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    But I fear I'm taking your thread off topic so I'll be quiet now. Gurfatehji
     
  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    I DONT think HUKM is some pigeon in the SKY just waiting to sh!t on someone...ha ha...and a TRUE GURSIKH doesnt distinguish between SH!T and CRAP....DUKH and SUKH..as ordinary HUMANS do...so striking a Lottery is Good and SUKH and getting hit by a bus is SH!T...DUKH..doesnt apply to aGursikh..and certainly SH!T didnt drop on Guru Arjun Ji...I am shocked at the idea even....just read His Bani..and you will Know ...
     
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  10. Harry Haller

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    sisji,

    I understand your concept, but I also even more humbly than your goodself disagree.

    This does not sound like Hukam, it sounds more like fate. I believe that when you do good things, these good things have consequences, and your life becomes less troubled. But, as you rightly state, sometimes there will be hardship, and this should be shouldered with good humour and Chardi Kela.

    I think it goes against the grain of Sikhi that a change in attitude to life, for the better, and as per Hukam, is NOT going to affect your future.Otherwise it is just lip service.

    The rewards as per Sikhi are not as obvious, or as magical and dramatic as in other religions, leading an honest, truthful, hard working, loving, humble life does not buy you virgins or Ambrosia rice pudding, it buys you Naam, the only reward a Sikh hankers for.

    My opinion only, corrections welcome
     
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  11. Ishna

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    Gyani ji, i think my message was lost in translation. I agree 100% with what you said, dukh/sukh are the same for a gursikh and that's what I'm trying to say. It's not a case of do good deeds all your life to live in happiness like the less advanced such as myself might imagine. I can't explain whats in my head. My words shouldn't be seen as any kind of disrespect to Guru Arjun Dev Ji. Apologies if it seemed that way.

    Harry ji, this is the impression of hukam and acceptance that I've gathered from gurbani and the series on japji sahib by karminder Singh dhillon as it appeared in The Sikh Bulletin newsletter. Most likely I've misunderstood. His explanation of hukam is very physics based, I'm not sure how you got the idea I was talking about fate. Anyway, I'm sure others have far more intelligent points of view than me on this topic.
     
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  12. Harry Haller

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    Sisji,

    I value your opinion more than you could know, its my fault, the thread is badly titled, and the opening post badly written. This is what happens when you are not getting enough sleep!

    animatedkhanda1
     
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  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Consequences are simply the results of our own ACTIONS...and DECISIONS.
    The GURU imparts GYAAN..LIGHT...KNOWLEDGE...of the CREATOR. Just as a Bulb is necessary to transform Electricity into LIGHT...so is a GURU essential to show us the WAY..the HUKM...
     
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  14. Kamala

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    Whenever I talk to the elderly of Sikhism and ask them if the Gurus are a incarnation of God, they always say yes [​IMG] maybe this is why they think it is okay.
     
  15. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Ishna Ji,
    DR karminder Singh Dhillon is my younger brother..and his series on japji Sahib and HUKM are certainly worth reading...so you are on the right track ...keep at it..
     
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  16. chazSingh

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    God bless all
     
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  17. chazSingh

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    Don't waste your time on what the masses are doing, their actions based on a boundary filled mind of 5 thieves evolves a pure religion into what can be witnessed today.

    If you want purity of religion, while we are attached and our attention is on the outside...search Sri guru Granth sahib ji very carefully...outer guru will guide you to within yourself...and then your inner guru will sureley take you the rest of the way. Later you may realise it was your inner guru that guided you to the outer guru and then back again.

    outer Guru is telling you that after eons of lives attched to the creation, its time to wake up realise your true divine potential. but to do that you need to go within yourself which contains a jigsaw piece of the divine jigsaw puzzle.

    consciousness is the power of attention, we only need to withdraw it from the outer existance and experience whats within. But the inner path is difficult if one has not planted the seed via sharing, charity, helping one another - humility and a loving heart are a pre-requisite to any inner spiritual journer to the source.
     
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  18. Randip Singh

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    Very true.

    Nice post.
     
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  19. chazSingh

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    ALL is god in the creation. The Gurus had reached the heights of their full divine potential (god-realisation). After that, is there a need for a Ferrari, a big house, arguing amongst others...the only thing worth doing is helping others reach the same heights of consciousness so we all can take a dip into the God....and thats why they manifested in the physical realm to show us how we can become truly divine.
     
  20. Harry Haller

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    Chazji

    You write very definitively.
     
  21. chazSingh

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    niramal baanee bharam chukaaeiaa ||
    Through the Immaculate Bani of the Word, my doubts have been dispelled. 221

    eik man eaek dhhiaaeeai man kee laahi bharaa(n)th ||
    With one-pointed mind, meditate on the One Lord, and the doubts of your mind will be dispelled 47

    When one starts to develop deep love and thirst for god deep within, there is no place left for blind faith...just believing what people say even just blindly believing what Guru Ji says. There are 100's of opinions on various things..that will twist and turn you and then you'll realise your life is coming to an end..i have no time to experience.

    Gurur Ji says: develop humility and love for others through sharing, caring, honesty
    I say: thank you god for giving me 24 hours of a day to implement this.

    Guru Ji says: sit, chant, meditate, single mindedly, look within, withdraw your attention and the seven seas (seven chakras) will flow with Amrit, and the inner vision will awaken
    I say: Hear i am everyday doing the above, now show me the proof else i'll be living in blind faith all my life...you gave me these precious breaths and i do not wish to waste them anymore...i need to experience you not study you. I'm keeping my end of the deal, now you keep yours! :)

    And like any experiment, you need to do it over time to see the true results (if any)

    BUT, once you're given that proof by Guru Ji (whatever that may be), then your doubts are instantly dispelled.

    Not everything i write i have experienced myself, but bit by bit, you start to realise - "this guru isn't bullshi**ng me"

    and you keep saying to him "come-on, you set this show up, you keep telling us about all these things, i'm now here, me and you, lets do this...lift me up, in THIS life, NOT the next life...NOW!!" :)

    A Guru is a SatGuru (true Guru) if he can GIVE YOU THE EXPERIENCE OF WHAT HE TELLS YOU...he gives you the pre-requisites, so plant the seeds with them, and then say "now show me the fruits that you say will materialise from the seeds"

    This is just my method, for others it may be different and thats why sangat is all powerful to learn from each others experience.
     
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