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General Is Consciousness [atma] Produced By The Brain?

Discussion in 'Videos' started by BhagatSingh, Feb 20, 2015.

  1. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Dr. Bruce Greyson addresses the question " Is Consciousness Produced by the Brain?"
    He approaches this question from many angles including NDE and brain defects.
    He talks about the evidence we have so far that shows Consciousness is independent and can operate independent of the Brain.

     
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  3. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Bhagat Singh ji thank you. It appears to be a great presentation. I just started to digest. I will reply, comment or contribute more later.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  4. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
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    Time is calculable but I believe the measure is immeasurable because it is constant never ending. So if we argue that time is not infinite and that you can actually calculate the end of time. Not the end of the universe of beings but "time" itself, in there you will find your answer to consciousness because if the measure of time is infinte then the calculation of the measure of your minds consciousness is made up, within our own minds, it's a man made up calculation time is then. Why not turn a full night and split it into two nights, or three? Turn a minute into an hour the sun's rays measure a day in some part's of the world you don't see daylight for 6 months. It is a measure that works and helps define the conscious. If the measure is not infinite then we are measuring something independent from the mind itself or could that calculation be flawed aswell as everything lasts forever; just things changing Form. Like the body turns to ash the ash turns to debris so on and so forth forming the cosmos. Consciousness were does it end?
     
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    #3 Parma, Feb 21, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2015
  5. Ambarsaria

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    Bhagat Singh ji and Parma ji thanks for your posts. I enjoyed the posts and also just finished watching the video end-to-end.

    This is a fascinating subject indeed. Great discourse by Prof. Greyson. His conclusion is that with our brains as we are, we may not be able to explain as it happens or be able to understand how it happens. His postulation however is that, there is substantial truthfulness in the hypothesis of brain and consciousness being of separate existence but being observable in actions and experiences through results of interactions. However these cannot be assigned to either the brain or the separate consciousness objectively.

    There is much we do not see, there is much we don't hear, feel, taste or experience in tactile/touch ways. I believe that to seek out further in this space is to recognize that we may never know all but perhaps slowly develop into understanding a bit at a time. Are we seeking the ultimate truths of creation or all of these truths? SGGS and our Guru ji continuously warn about the futility of so doing if we somehow endeavor to understand all. Bit at a time and so on is OK but no need to be frustrated if all not known as there is infinite to know.

    What kind of microscope or even if it is the telescope that is needed, what kind of radio receivers or is it the sonar that we need, and so on. These are all pointing to as wide a knowledge gap as we can imagine.

    One thing strictly based on experimentation and observational deduction that the Professor definitely stayed away from was the sexiness of labeling some of these experiences as to be the scientific truth of reincarnation. Whether such has origins in Hinduism or Buddhism beliefs or philosophies.

    It is incredible how some of his language is part of the common folklore and observable understanding and observation among some of the people with Eastern backgrounds. One of such folklore's/wisdom that I heard of was that near death one becomes very lucid and clear. It used to be stated that when an oil lamp (deeva) goes out it becomes really bright near the end. I observed this during the night before my father's passing away essentially in my hands. Many of us in the family in India also had very weird vibes the night before our elder brother unexpectedly passed away in England. He was not hospitalized or anything and just abruptly passed away after an aneurysm.

    Is it that we start to connect dots during or soon after extreme situations or there is substantial and unique principles or attributes that we are unaware of. I do not know. At times I feel like that it is like when one of the headlights goes out on your car, you start seeing a lot of the other cars with headlights burnt out while you won't be that sensitive to these prior to your own headlight burning gout.

    If we are able to raise levels of spirituality through raising special awareness', perhaps it will be very fascinating.

    I don't believe we are going to get much participation in this thread because it really requires levels of discomfort in thinking that most people rather not engage in. Let us share more as we learn.I am game.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    #4 Ambarsaria, Feb 23, 2015
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  6. BhagatSingh

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    That's a good summary of it.
    We have a lot of research to suggest that brain and consciousness and tied. And a lot of research that suggests that they are independent.

    To study Consciousness's independence it is important to study OBE, NDE, etc. And to encourage people to talk about these experiences openly. Many members on SPN have had these experiences. I have had the privilege of speaking with two such members here, who have had OBE and NDE experiences. And I think it's fascinating.

    Do share with us that experience, if possible. I would love to hear it.

    Sounds like telepathy.
    Dr. Dean Radin has been studying and experimenting with this phenomenon of telepathy and other Psi phenomenon for years now. Psi is basically the ability to effect physical objects through observation and intention. Telepathy is when two minds interact at a distance where no other communication can take place. This interaction is most commonly observed with high emotions like the example of your brother's illness and you feeling it in your gut. For that reason, scientists think that this maybe an evolutionary phenomenon, that evolved during times where communication over long distance was impossible.

    Let me know if I should start new threads or link Dean Radin's lectures to this one.

    Indeed it is! Guru Sahibs are repeatedly telling us to raise our awareness in GGS. It is through raising our awareness that we can experience that which is normally hidden to us.
     
  7. BhagatSingh

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    "the calculation of the measure of your minds consciousness" - what do you mean by this?

    There is a difference is being conscious of something and consciousness.
    Being conscious in the normal sense is simply being in the waking state and calculating things with the mind. Thinking, imagining, observing - these things are time-bound.

    However consciousness operates at not only waking state but also in dream sleep, deep sleep and turiya.

    Deep sleep and Turiya are timeless states. There is no time here because time is bound by space and objects. Where there are no objects, there is no change, thus there is no time. So I think time is finite.

    Why is that dependent on whether the measure is infinite or not? Why can't it be independent if it is infinite?
    I don't think mind is infinite. I think mind is finite and consciousness is infinite.

    And can consciousness be measured? I would say no. Consciousness is the one who measures, it itself cannot be measured.
     
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  8. Parma

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    Bhagat ji you really are a great man. I realise you may have studied the scientific aspects. Where for me I can only give you a practical analogy. God bless Sir. You take the credit were it is due sir for I am not here to gain recognition but it is you to recognise the love of the supreme consciousness. Waheguru ji ki khalsa and it's Waheguru ji ki fateh.

    For me though when I talk about the measure of consciousness I talk about the ability to measure space as well as thought and time because to break it down you would have to figure out if they are interlinked. Like when we look at time if it is not infinite and never ending then you would obviously realise not to use time as a measure for consciousness and so it would be irrelevant to use as a true measure for it may be impossible "consciousness" to measure. Then there would be the need to figure out if it is totally biological, or is it chemical or is it space it's self. When I say space I don't mean space as in outer space but literally space, universal as consciousness, as it is a Form of intelligence and when the earth revolves we call it a gravity an energy I call it a consciousness. To me consciousness = energy as i see it as a indepth interwoven, mechanism which we have been able to prove through artificial intelligence but that is not the end of it, because the energy that fuels the artificial intelligence existed before the device that processes the artificial intelligence did. Energy as in my case i call it consciousness = intelligence. Consciousness too me the explanation of it is simpler. Basically you would need to build a computer for every type of thought and emotional storage process to be able to equate the value or build a view to complete a map of Consciousness as it has so many complexities there is the development of thoughts that occur over time but if time is infinte then what part does memory really play with in regards to consciousness or is it a play of emotional intelligence and do we make decisions by different states of consciousness. Like learning the difference of long term and short term memory how much do you use then to conclude any decisions that you make. How much energy do you use to process each thought? Without indepth experimentation a definitive answer would be hard but saying that as I belive energy is consciousness that is your answer it's just figuring out what energy your mind collates too. I wish you well on your thesis if you are writing one. The greatest illusion is not intelligence it's learning how to deceive it. I am here to learn the truth. God bless.
     
    #7 Parma, Feb 28, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2015
  9. Original

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    And, the truth is, "jeevat mariya bhav jal tariya" [775 SGGSJ].

    Consciousness [chet'n ta] has always been a source of mystery. Cellular biology and functional research together with theoretical reasoning will inevitably come to findings of unimaginable proportions to better the human condition. Philosophers and Scientists have succeeded in demystifying it to a degree, but still it slips through any net one might cast with words, that's because it's alive and is a living organisms. Sikhism handles it beautifully, in that, consciousness survives death, which is, God. And, that exit from the wheel of 84 is a must to realise the "spiritual" consciousness as distinct from the "physical".

    Scientists and Philosophers have probed and will continue to probe [human nature - evolutionary niche]. We humans are intrinsically creative - the creative energy within [karta purakh] creates, dissolves, recreates for finer and better evolutionary models. Both developmental and analytical Psychology are bringing us to a point of realisation where we begin to see our spiritual self - satnam.

    Good day !
     
  10. BhagatSingh

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    What do space and time have to do with consciousness?
    How does measuring space and time give us any knowledge of consciousness? I don't think it does.

    I don't think artificial intelligence has consciousness. I don't think anything was proven, other than it is very, very difficult to create a conscious AI.


    If energy = consciousness and consciousness = intelligence then energy = intelligence?

    What do those words mean to you?
     
  11. BhagatSingh

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    Yea I agree. Although I was expecting you to elaborate on the quote you started your post with.
    What does it mean to die while still being alive?
     
  12. chazSingh

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    you can probably spend a whole lifetime studying and trying to understand consciousness...and only scratch the surface...

    or you can do your daily Amrit Vela and bit by bit everything opens up before your very eyes (spiritual eyes)

    All my life i wanted to be an explorer...i never accepted life to be just what we were taught in school...or what we see, hear, touch, taste and smell.

    With Guru Ji's guidance we can be the ultimate explorers whilst sat on our couch in our living rooms :) ... how crazy is that

    Bhagat Ji, i believe the shabad 'to die whilst still being alive' means many things at different levels...death of ego...death to Maya whilst still being a part of it and participating in creation but not being affected by its pull. and also...experiencing the same sensation of physical death whilst yet being alive...i.e. movement of consciousness away from the body to somewhere else.

    Simran/Remembering is the key ...the unimaginable is possible...we just need to remember that it is :)
     
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  13. Original

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    Bhagat Singh

    Death is certain ! That knowledge is perhaps the defining feature of the human condition. And, as far as we know, we alone are capable of contemplating the prospects of our demise. Sikhism speaks of death thus, jis marna sa jug da'ray mera man anand, marne hi se pi'an ga puram paramanand [Bhagat Kabir Ji]. Consciousness survives death!

    PLEASE NOTE:
    I’m not inviting debate and argument over “religious belief”- purely on rational grounds. That is to say, from a philosophical perspective, both reason and empirical observation cannot prove the existence of God. At best, religion acts as a dimension to bridge the gap between the two. This gap is filled by “faith”- Sikhism. Let us enjoy therefore !


    Our most familiar ideas about ourselves are rooted in the traditional view that there is a radical difference between human beings and the natural world. We have thought of ourselves as partly natural and our bodies [physical, body n mind] belong entirely to the natural world and subject to natural laws, whilst the other [spiritual, soul] the important part transcending the natural world [time n space] and quite different from it. It is to this part that the teachings of SGGSJ are attributed to.

    For a better illustration, consider this:

    The mind the charioteer, the body a chariot and the soul it's passenger.


    The nucleus of Nanak's philosophy is that the soul can whilst here in the physical arena take to wings at ease, notwithstanding, the shackles of body and mind.

    Jasa jal main kamal ni'ralum murgai ni'sana
    surat shabd bhav sagar tariya nanak nam vi'khana

    Says Nanak, allow me to show you how. And, here he makes use of metaphors such as kamal [lotus flower] and murgai [duck, literally]. In essence, Nanak is saying, just as the lotus flower has its roots in water yet remains dry above emitting fragrance and beauty to onlookers; the duck likewise swims in water but at its fancy takes to wings, so can you human, whilst attending to your daily dictates through nam simran - visit your true home from whence you came.

    STOP! This here Nanak says is truly dying because the body is left at the physical plane which will in all eventuality disintegrate and the soul taken flight and is forever free eternal.

    Moving on to your question - jeevat mariya bhavjal tariya is to that effect, that is to say, hey human, learn to leave the body whilst alive and exit the cycle of 84 permanently. The house of Nanak places all emphasis on exit [nam simran] within reason of course, because a householder's life is the bedrock of society [gris'tah jeevan] and we don't want spanner thrown into what is otherwise a beautiful ideology [Sikhism].

    And, Bhagat since this thread is about consciousness we must try and steer in that direction so as to give some meaning.

    House of Nanak believes [cannot be argued or debated that is why it is a religion and not philosophy] that the consciousness survives death. As much as I'd like to continue, I must hurry home [still at the work], but suffice it may to add, that since we [Sikh] believe in the existence of the human soul it cannot be confined exclusively to the brain.

    More later ......
    Goodnight
     
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  14. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
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    Parma;
    Consciousness.
     
    #13 Parma, Mar 5, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2015
  15. chazSingh

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    That is to say, from a philosophical perspective, both reason and empirical observation cannot prove the existence of God. At best, religion acts as a dimension to bridge the gap between the two. This gap is filled by “faith”- Sikhism.

    first step is faith....last step is knowing :) through first hand experience (not from study)... all within this lifetime whilst in this physical body with Guru Ji's grace.

    The human body is the true Guru Dwara. the door to the Guru. so look after it, keep it in a peaceful state and find its treasures that will open the door to God.
     
  16. BhagatSingh

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    Reason relies on the Mind. Empirical Observation relies on the Senses. And God is beyond the mind and senses. In order to find God we must turn away from Mind and Senses. I think Sikhi bridges the gap from Mind and Senses and helps us turn away, if only for a moment, to experience God.

    I agree with both you Chaz and Original.

    Original you summed it all up in a few sentences. I think Consciousness surviving death is only available to experience, through meditation or rare events like NDE.

    Would you guys like to share any experiences that are same/similar to "dieing whilst still being alive"?
     
  17. BhagatSingh

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    Help me understand what you are talking about.

    What does it mean to measure?
    What does it mean to measure consciousness?

    What is space?

    What is thought?

    What is time?

    What is consciousness?
     
  18. Original

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    Agree 101% !
     
  19. Harry Haller

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    sure why not, when I was a kid, I had two heroes, Chevy Chase and Clint Eastwood, specifically the characters Clark Griswald, and Dirty Harry, in fact, I only got married so I could have an ex wife chase me for maintenance, hilarious! I loved his irrelevance, wit, and inability to get angry. In time I found I could not understand the Dirty Harry character, it was too dark, and at the time I believed no one could be that cold, I loved life, women, fun, upsetting the system, I had fears, aspirations, desires, I wanted to live forever.

    Circumstances changed me, over the years, life became something other than a grand stage, something other than to be loved, death became something other than reincarnation, it became the end, but not to be feared. Possessions, money, love, temporary happiness all became moot, and as things levelled, I went further, cold, heat, hunger, desire, all became irrelevant, until one day I looked in the mirror, looked beyond Chevy Chase, and found myself staring into the eyes of Dirty Harry, so, where does that leave me? I want nothing, I fear nothing, it is my absolute duty as a Sikh to be in tune with the world, to be in consonance, to be part of the energy that drives the world, to assist, to nurture, not blindly, but with tact, discretion, and the one skill that keeps growing, perception. Whether this perception is merely a figment of my imagination is up for debate, but I find myself reading people better, reading situations better, not for personal gain or for business, but to see' how can I help' 'what can I do', 'what does this person want from me, if anything'

    Holidays, pets, relationships, clothes, status, ego, all bore me, the living death now means I am better equipped to seek and help. Would I go back? no, I would not, I am free from anger, disappointment, sadness, for the first time in my life I am truly free, and what does this freedom bring, the responsibility of assistance.

    We are all different, We all get what we need from Sikhi, in my view, the desire for spiritual enlightenment, is no different to the desire for more ice cream., but then thats my own view.
     
  20. Original

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    My dear Bhagat Singh Ji

    All those sacrifices [saheedian/qurbanian] we made - for what ? So that we can have leisures n pleasures of this here human life ? Nay nay nay ! We made those sacrifices because we believed in virtue, honour, respect, dignity and above all, strength [Nanak's God]. Our forefathers epotimised strength because it is strength that makes all other values achievable. We have inherited a Kingdom, a society in which our beliefs and values are preserved and protected as a result of their sacrifices [heros blood are the seeds of freedom]. Now it is up to us to "live" for what they "died". Death of the body yes, but of the spirit never [jeevat mariya...] Yesterday's Nanak and Govinds are today's Bhagat Singh and the rest. Consciousness surviving death is 1 event taking place at 2 [some commontators speak of multiverse] different locations in space at the same time.Who's to say todays Bhagat is not yesterday's Govind [immortality of the soul given God consciousness is both physical and spiritual]. And, it's down to the evolution of God Consciousness within an individual's spiritual and intellectual development that brings about this awareness. Says Nanak, "man tu jot saroop ha apna mool pahchan" [441 SGGSJ].


    Spiritual

    You've touched upon something [turn away] of Confucius' s world, "the things we touch have no permanence. There is nothing in this world which we can hold, only by letting go can we truly possess what is real". House of Nanak calls that the real "Satnam Waheguru".

    Guru Nanak's Sikhism is beautiful in all aspects, that's not to say, other equally competing faiths are any less beautiful, but from a Sikh perspective, rest assure your time will come to meet your maker. Guru Maharaj explains that it's not the student [Sikh] who searches for the perfect Satguru, but rather, the Satguru waits for the perfect pupil to ripe to take to next level - one beyond time n space. There are no conditions in the house of Nanak save, kirit kar, vand shak and nam jap.


    Goodnight !
     
  21. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
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    To all your questions is one simple reply; The energy that I have within me. How that energy is distributed whether through body, space, time atma and so on is a whole other way of looking at things. What energy are you? I think should have been your question For me personally I will let god judge me. LOVE.
     
    #20 Parma, Mar 6, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015

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