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Is Bisan Of Guru Gobind Singh Jee And Kabeer Jee Different?
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<blockquote data-quote="spnadmin" data-source="post: 77829" data-attributes="member: 35"><p><span style="color: Blue"><span style="color: DarkSlateGray">Balbir ji and other jios,</span></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><span style="color: DarkSlateGray"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><span style="color: DarkSlateGray">I have gone back once again to examine the ideas that started this threa</span> d,</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">First Balbir, you said</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Dear all!</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Lately I had a chance to listen, Prof. Harpal Singh Pannu's lecture on Dasam Granth delivered at a seminar held in Sacramento in California. He referred Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Vaak from Dasam Granth.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon||</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Today I came across the Vaak from Bhagat Kabeer Jee and its translation.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਵਵਾ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ववा बार बार बिसन सम्हारि ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">vavā bār bār bisan samĥār.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">WAWA: Time and time again, dwell upon the Lord.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਬਿਸਨ ਸੰਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਹਾਰਿ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">बिसन सम्हारि न आवै हारि ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Bisan sammhār na āvai hār. SGGS Ang 342-10</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Dwelling upon the Lord, defeat shall not come to you.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">May I ask if Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Bhagat Kabeer Jee have different views on 'Bisan'? Please express your views. I will be thankful.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Balbir Singh</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span> </p><p>--------------------------</p><p></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"> Then I responded</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen">My cursory reading -- just very quick and maybe i will change my mind -- but one seems to be the complement of the other. The first is saying I do not worship 3 Gods; and the second saying dwell on the Lord (one Lord). They may indeed not say but intend the same thing in different ways.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen">Your question, again, is very interesting.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen">__________________</span> </p><p><span style="color: DarkOliveGreen"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkOliveGreen">Then Balbir ji, you responded</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkOliveGreen"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkOliveGreen">Quote "My cursory reading -- just very quick and maybe i will change my mind -- but one seems to be the complement of the other. The first is saying I do not worship 3 Gods; and the second saying dwell on the Lord (one Lord). They may indeed not say but intend the same thing in different ways."</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkOliveGreen">In my observation, Guru Gobind Singh Jee did not use the number three nor Guru Arjan Dev Jee limited Lord within the number one in His Vaak.</span> </p><p></p><p>--------------------------</p><p><span style="color: Sienna"></span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna">Then Nam Jap added this</span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna"></span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna">Here are two quotes about Vishnu (Bishan) by Nanak V and Kabeer:-</span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna"></span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna">ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਮੋਹਿਆ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna">ब्रहमा बिसनु महादेउ मोहिआ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna">Barahmā bisan mahāḏė*o mohi*ā.</span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna">She has bewitched Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.</span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna">Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok</span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna"></span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna">ਕਬੀਰ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਮਾਲਾ ਮੇਲੀਂ ਚਾਰਿ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna">कबीर बैसनो हूआ त किआ भइआ माला मेलीं चारि ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna">Kabīr baisno hū*ā ṯa ki*ā bẖa*i*ā mālā mėlīʼn cẖār.</span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna">Kabeer, what good is it to become a devotee of Vishnu, and wear four malas?</span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna">Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok</span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna">__________________</span> </p><p><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">Following this pk70 added </span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">Please do not deviate from your statement. You wrote " . . . Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">I could not find one instance where Gurdev has called Bisan the creator. Please let all know which Baabaa has convinced people that Bisan is the creator, or it is your mind.</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">Bisan is Bisan. Bisan is not the creator who created Bisan. The same is with Raam, Brahma or Mahesh.</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">You wrote "Balbir j Singh ji, Now look at the following quote from GGS JI. First use of Ram is for Hindu Avtar/God, Ram Chandar." And quoted</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">bRhmw ibsnu mhysu dyv aupwieAw ] bRhmy idqy byd pUjw lwieAw ] ds AvqwrI rwmu rwjw AwieAw ]</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">barahmaa bisan mahays dayv upaa-i-aa. barahmay ditay bayd poojaa laa-i-aa. das avtaaree raam raajaa aa-i-aa. 1279-18</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">Also, the above Vaak clearly states that Brahma, Bisan and Mahesh are created.</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">Guru Angad Dev Jee is also not explaining here that Brahma, Bisan, Mahesh or Das Avtaaree Raam is a Hindu.</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo"></span> </p><p>-------------------------</p><p></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"> Subsequently Archived Member 1</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">added this clarification in response to my understanding that Guru Gobind Singh was talking about aspects or attributes within the One God. </span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">you are exactly right. balbir "forgot" to post the complete line. posting half of a line of gurbani can be extremely misleading.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (Waheguru).434.</span> </p><p></p><p>---------------------</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Olive">Susequently I quoted</span></p><p><span style="color: Olive"></span></p><p> <span style="color: Olive">ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Olive">kott bisan keenae avathaar ||</span></p><p><span style="color: Olive">He created millions of incarnations of Vishnu.</span></p><p><span style="color: Olive"></span></p><p><span style="color: Olive">Kishan is a reference to Krishna, and again this is not a simple matter.</span></p><p><span style="color: Olive"></span></p><p><span style="color: Olive">ਕਿਸਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰੂਧਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Olive">kisan sadhaa avathaaree roodhhaa kith lag tharai sansaaraa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: Olive">Kisan is always busy reincarnating himself - who will save the world?</span></p><p><span style="color: Olive">Guru Amar Das, Ang 559</span></p><p><span style="color: Olive"></span></p><p><span style="color: Olive">as well as </span></p><p><span style="color: Olive"></span></p><p><span style="color: Olive">ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Olive">brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12||</span></p><p><span style="color: Olive">Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||</span></p><p><span style="color: Olive">Guru Nanaak, Ang 908. </span> </p><p>---------------------------------------------------</p><p><span style="color: Purple"> pk70 then wrote</span></p><p><span style="color: Purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: Purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: Purple">Quote "As explained above, same 'RAM' word is used for Ram Chandar and the Creator as well. Words are the same; however, context it different. Being a Sikh, I hope, you are very well aware of the truth that Guru Sahiban, Bhagat jio, used Ram, Murar, Krishana, Sanwla also for the Creator."</span></p><p><span style="color: Purple">I could not find one reference where Guru Saahibaan have called Raam, Muraar, Krishna, Sanwla the creator. Please provide one reference and oblige</span></p><p><span style="color: Purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: Purple">Sir I already gave quote about this, let me give once again</span></p><p><span style="color: Purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: Purple">.</span></p><p><span style="color: Purple">ਦਸਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ॥(1279)</span></p><p><span style="color: Purple">ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ॥37 Japji</span></p><p><span style="color: Purple">In the first quote, it is about "Ram Chandar" specifically.</span></p><p><span style="color: Purple">In the second one it is about the Creator who permeates in HIS nature.</span></p><p><span style="color: Purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: Purple">-----------------------------------------------------</span></p><p><span style="color: Purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: Purple">Since then Nam Jap in more recent posts has added additional clarifications from Gurbani.</span></p><p><span style="color: Purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: Purple"><span style="color: DarkSlateGray">Balbir ji or anyone,</span></span></p><p><span style="color: Purple"><span style="color: DarkSlateGray"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: Purple"><span style="color: DarkSlateGray">Compare the early comments with the latest comments. How much progress have we made answering the thread starting questions? Have we reached closure on Bisan? Or can we conclude that there are very understandaable reasons why Guru Gobind Singh and Bhagat Kabeer ji use "Bisan" differently to speak to different issues. Yet their uses of Bisan are not in contradiction to Shabad Guru. </span> </span></p><p><span style="color: Purple"></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="spnadmin, post: 77829, member: 35"] [COLOR=Blue][COLOR=DarkSlateGray]Balbir ji and other jios, I have gone back once again to examine the ideas that started this threa[/COLOR] d, First Balbir, you said Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal! Dear all! Lately I had a chance to listen, Prof. Harpal Singh Pannu's lecture on Dasam Granth delivered at a seminar held in Sacramento in California. He referred Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Vaak from Dasam Granth. ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu Today I came across the Vaak from Bhagat Kabeer Jee and its translation. ਵਵਾ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ ॥ ववा बार बार बिसन सम्हारि ॥ vavā bār bār bisan samĥār. WAWA: Time and time again, dwell upon the Lord. ਬਿਸਨ ਸੰਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਹਾਰਿ ॥ बिसन सम्हारि न आवै हारि ॥ Bisan sammhār na āvai hār. SGGS Ang 342-10 Dwelling upon the Lord, defeat shall not come to you. May I ask if Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Bhagat Kabeer Jee have different views on 'Bisan'? Please express your views. I will be thankful. Balbir Singh [/COLOR] -------------------------- [COLOR=DarkGreen] Then I responded My cursory reading -- just very quick and maybe i will change my mind -- but one seems to be the complement of the other. The first is saying I do not worship 3 Gods; and the second saying dwell on the Lord (one Lord). They may indeed not say but intend the same thing in different ways. Your question, again, is very interesting. __________________[/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkOliveGreen] Then Balbir ji, you responded Quote "My cursory reading -- just very quick and maybe i will change my mind -- but one seems to be the complement of the other. The first is saying I do not worship 3 Gods; and the second saying dwell on the Lord (one Lord). They may indeed not say but intend the same thing in different ways." In my observation, Guru Gobind Singh Jee did not use the number three nor Guru Arjan Dev Jee limited Lord within the number one in His Vaak.[/COLOR] -------------------------- [COLOR=Sienna] Then Nam Jap added this Here are two quotes about Vishnu (Bishan) by Nanak V and Kabeer:- ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਮੋਹਿਆ ॥ ब्रहमा बिसनु महादेउ मोहिआ ॥ Barahmā bisan mahāḏė*o mohi*ā. She has bewitched Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok ਕਬੀਰ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਮਾਲਾ ਮੇਲੀਂ ਚਾਰਿ ॥ कबीर बैसनो हूआ त किआ भइआ माला मेलीं चारि ॥ Kabīr baisno hū*ā ṯa ki*ā bẖa*i*ā mālā mėlīʼn cẖār. Kabeer, what good is it to become a devotee of Vishnu, and wear four malas? Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok __________________[/COLOR] [COLOR=Indigo] Following this pk70 added Please do not deviate from your statement. You wrote " . . . Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places." I could not find one instance where Gurdev has called Bisan the creator. Please let all know which Baabaa has convinced people that Bisan is the creator, or it is your mind. Bisan is Bisan. Bisan is not the creator who created Bisan. The same is with Raam, Brahma or Mahesh. You wrote "Balbir j Singh ji, Now look at the following quote from GGS JI. First use of Ram is for Hindu Avtar/God, Ram Chandar." And quoted bRhmw ibsnu mhysu dyv aupwieAw ] bRhmy idqy byd pUjw lwieAw ] ds AvqwrI rwmu rwjw AwieAw ] barahmaa bisan mahays dayv upaa-i-aa. barahmay ditay bayd poojaa laa-i-aa. das avtaaree raam raajaa aa-i-aa. 1279-18 Also, the above Vaak clearly states that Brahma, Bisan and Mahesh are created. Guru Angad Dev Jee is also not explaining here that Brahma, Bisan, Mahesh or Das Avtaaree Raam is a Hindu. [/COLOR] ------------------------- [COLOR=DarkRed] Subsequently Archived Member 1 added this clarification in response to my understanding that Guru Gobind Singh was talking about aspects or attributes within the One God. you are exactly right. balbir "forgot" to post the complete line. posting half of a line of gurbani can be extremely misleading. ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥ I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (Waheguru).434.[/COLOR] --------------------- [COLOR=Olive]Susequently I quoted[/COLOR] [COLOR=Olive] ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ kott bisan keenae avathaar || He created millions of incarnations of Vishnu. Kishan is a reference to Krishna, and again this is not a simple matter. ਕਿਸਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰੂਧਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ kisan sadhaa avathaaree roodhhaa kith lag tharai sansaaraa || Kisan is always busy reincarnating himself - who will save the world? Guru Amar Das, Ang 559 as well as ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥ brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12|| Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12|| Guru Nanaak, Ang 908. [/COLOR] --------------------------------------------------- [COLOR=Purple] pk70 then wrote Quote "As explained above, same 'RAM' word is used for Ram Chandar and the Creator as well. Words are the same; however, context it different. Being a Sikh, I hope, you are very well aware of the truth that Guru Sahiban, Bhagat jio, used Ram, Murar, Krishana, Sanwla also for the Creator." I could not find one reference where Guru Saahibaan have called Raam, Muraar, Krishna, Sanwla the creator. Please provide one reference and oblige Sir I already gave quote about this, let me give once again . ਦਸਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ॥(1279) ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ॥37 Japji In the first quote, it is about "Ram Chandar" specifically. In the second one it is about the Creator who permeates in HIS nature. ----------------------------------------------------- Since then Nam Jap in more recent posts has added additional clarifications from Gurbani. [COLOR=DarkSlateGray]Balbir ji or anyone, Compare the early comments with the latest comments. How much progress have we made answering the thread starting questions? Have we reached closure on Bisan? Or can we conclude that there are very understandaable reasons why Guru Gobind Singh and Bhagat Kabeer ji use "Bisan" differently to speak to different issues. Yet their uses of Bisan are not in contradiction to Shabad Guru. [/COLOR] [/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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Is Bisan Of Guru Gobind Singh Jee And Kabeer Jee Different?
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