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Integrity And Honesty In Discussion

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by Kully, Sep 9, 2016.

  1. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Dear All,

    I had opened a topic "Sabh sikhan ko hukam hai guru maneo granth" under the intention of the origins and written evidence of this dohra from Guru Gobind Singh's hand.

    I knew before hand that there is no such dohra written by Guru Sahib hand. In fact I was just seeing how the topic would go.

    The tradition is the Guru Sahib said this (or something similiar) and then it found its way to being written down.
    But if we ask for written evidence, in the same vein that harkiran Ji said she needed something concrete, beyond doubt, to say that Charitropakhyan was Guru's own words, then nobody will be able to produce evidence. So what if other Sikhs started to say (as Harkiran did) that if that is the case then they are giving up Sikhism? What would we think then?


    You see, my main intention was to fathom how people, under the garb of intellectualism and learning, will maintain any academic integrity when the subject matter is one they don't doubt.

    I have no doubt that SGGS is the Guru after the 10 jamas. But I wanted test the reaction of applying the same rationale or methodolgy for rejecting DG to SGGS, to see whether the members on this forum would be able to, firstly see that their same scrutiny is being applied, and also whether their rationale or methodogy is fair.

    Seeing as how the topic went, it does rather display the objective that I set out to test. The same rules when aplied to SGGS, as applied to DG, resulted in sensationalism and accusations.

    It is intellect fraud to do this. We need to be more honest and work with more integrity when discussing things, and not resort to hooliganism.

    For those who have looked into both granths, and studied them carefully will notice that if you make one realisation about one then it will apply to the other. It astounds me that the Admins will take sides with a members hooliganism and accusations of "publicly demeaning SGGS" but remain mute when someone refers to DG as "a porn book".

    Remember how important "honesty" is in life.
     
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  3. Ishna

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    So you *have* read the Dasam Granth, inclusive of the Charitropakhyan. Despite claims of only being a beginner to lead Harkiran Kaur into your trap. 10/10 for honesty and integrity, mate :)
     
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  4. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    No, I haven't read ALL of it. Neither have I claimed to do so.

    But reading is one thing, and understanding is another.

    I havent read ALL of Charitropakhyan either. Harkiran has read ALL of it. I have only started on the beginning so far, as I said in my posts. But do I feel she has understod it? No. not because want to feel that, but simply from the response given to the questions I asked her. I mean, she couldn't even explain the background to the text correctly.

    Trap? I'm not a hunter, and Harkiran is not a prey. Why would asking questions be like laying a trap? If you want to see traps, then see the trap she laid for herself, by rejecting DG but accepting SGGS on the same premise.

    Thank you but please, it's not necessary. I am always open for debate and discussion. Things I don't know the answers to, I will come straight out and say it. Thats where honesty is important. We are all here to learn after all. And as for intergrity, thats very important. I won't use sources to bolster something I claim and then discard the same source if it has been proved wrong. Nor will I jump from pillar to post to pillar to keep changing the ethos o the topic. Nor will I use sources that are untraceable. To me, that is an insult to discussion and certainly not the actions of an intellectual.

    Let's keep the topic moving without resorting to cheap shots like " traps" and "publicly insulting SGGS". It just ruins a good forum, not just for us, but for any future visitors to this forum.
     
    #3 Kully, Sep 9, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  5. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Kully Jee

    Are not you contented with SGGS our only Puran Guru and that you are desparately trying to challenge and bring it at par with SGGS. Tell me do you find anything extra in DG to be sachiar that we contemplate and research. With first glance I find DG is full of contradiction. On one hand it swaeyee it condemns pilgrimage, ' ਕਹਾ ਭਯੋ ਜੋ ਦੋਊ ਲੋਚਨ ਮੂੰਦ ਕੈ ਬੈਠਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਬਕ ਧਯਾਨ ਲਗਾਇਓ। ਨ੍ਹਾਤ ਫਿਰਿਓ ਲੀਏ ਸਾਤ ਸਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਗਯੋ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਗਵਾਇਓ। ਬਾਸੁ ਕੀਓ ਬਿਖਿਆਨ ਸੋ ਬੈਠ ਕੇ ਐਸੇ ਹੀ ਐਸ ਸੁ ਬੈਸ ਬਿਤਾਇਓ। ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੋਂ ਸੁਨ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਭੈ ਜਿਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਕੀਓ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਇਓ। on the other hand it glorifies pillgrimages by saying, 'ਮੁਰ ਪਿਤ ਪੂਰਬ ਕੀਯਸਿ ਪਯਾਨਾ॥ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕੇ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਨਾ॥ ਜਬ ਜੀ ਜਾਤ ਤ੍ਰਿਬੇਣੀ ਭਏ॥ ਪੁੰਨ ਦਾਨ ਦਿਨ ਕਰਤ ਬੀਤਏ॥੧॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਬੇਣੀ - ਪ੍ਰਯਾਗ, ਅਲਾਹਾਬਾਦ ਤਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਭਯੋ॥ਪਟਨਾ ਸਹਰ ਬਿਖੈ ਭਵ ਲਯੋ॥
     
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    #4 japjisahib04, Sep 9, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  6. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    I am totally contented with SGGS as puran Guru.


    Respecting DG does not in any way mean you are disrespecting DG. The Sikh Panth has been following DG since it was written in 1696. To claim what you are saying would mean that the Panth has disrespected SGGS from day one.


    You have listed what you percieve to be a contradiction, by posting one line from one bani and one line from another.

    If the Admins are agreeable then we can loook at it here, or shall we start a new thread for it? Admins please advise.
     
  7. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Please advise when was the first inaguration (prakash) of DG took place and did it had anything extra that it was required?
     
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  8. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Thanks for the question. Although the DG was written before SGGS was finalised by Guru Ji in 1706, Guru Sahib never inaugareted DG because it was never destined to become our Guru. Pothi Sahib was always destined to be our Guru, so the only inaugaration was for SGGS in 1708.

    We can learn a little more about this, I think it is Bansawlinama, but I will have to take another look to confirm, where Guru Sahib says "Aad pothi is Tikka Sahib...", so the need for any inaugaration of DG was not necessary.

    Hope that goes someway to answering the first part of your fascinating question.

    Forgive me, I do not understand what you are asking.
     
  9. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Kullyji

    I like you, I like your discussions and I like the way you debate, its very exact, very easy to read, to understand, but let us not deviate what could be a good discussion on a good topic with focus on personalities, I like the stuff you write, but lets keep it cool, otherwise it looks like you have an agenda, which of course, is not the case.

    back to topic, your argument is a good one, I look forward to calm, polite and respectful debate.
     
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  10. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Then what is your point?

    Can you clarify this, I find it hard to understand
    no need, both have areas of perceived ambiguity, some knowledge of background, of language, and to have a blessed heart helps, but there is point bandying about random quotes unless you are prepared to quote the whole shabad and a personal explanation of your understanding, in which case I would be delighted.
     
  11. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Thank you. I cannot stress enough the need for honesty in discussion. This is very important in a forum, as people will come here to learn. Our honesty here is an obligation, because in my opinion, you can't search for the truth whilst telling lies.


    I accept SGGS as my puran Guru. It was a response to another post which asked if I did.

    Certainly. Let me try it this way.

    Queen Elizabeth has 3 sons, but only Prince Charles will be King. He will be the King of Britain. Does that mean that we need to have no recognition of Prince Andrew and Prince Edward?

    If I were to acknowledge Princes Andrew and Edwards as the children of the Queen and therefore princes in their own right, would that be denigrating King Charles position?

    In the same way, can't I say that DG being the writings of Guru Sahib is very important to me, without being accused of "abandoning SGGS, or "making DG on par with SGGS" or as has been stated above "not be content with Charles as King"?

    Will I stop accepting KIng Charles as King?

    Yes, I would second that. If the poster could put up a little more of the texts and their placings in DG, it would help to look at them more closely.
     
  12. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    ok I am now debating the same topic on two different threads, so you believe in the DG is written by the tenth Guru, but is not in any way on a par with the SGGS?
     
  13. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    I don't think anything is on a par with SGGS.
     
  14. Harry Haller

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    so what exactly is your argument?
     
  15. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Argument? It's not an argument, I'm asking the forum to have some integrity and be honest in thier activity on this forum. I see that my post detailing Harkiran's activity on here recently has dissappeared. That's exactly what i want to see in this forum. People posting honestly and not posting mistruths to mislead others like Harkiran did.

    It's more of a plea than an argument.
     
  16. Harry Haller

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  17. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    I have never mislead anyone. The sources you want to use are not reliable. At least they would not hold in a court of law lets put it that way. There is no mistruth in the fact that DG OUTWARDLY denigrates women, and that goes against what ALL the Gurus said about equality and male / female. Even if it was just to use metaphor, our Guru would never knowingly drag one gender under the bus just to illustrate a point that is completely unrelated. (In fact none of our Gurus would knowingly denigrate ANYONE where it isn't warranted, just to make a point) Our Guru does not need to completely degrade women in order to put forth some hidden ideas - the same ideas already contained in SGGSJ - Nor would there be direct commands to men, to distrust women. There is no misleading there. Now, certain members on another forum claim that Guru Ji is not denigrating women.... for the fact that they see woman as DESERVING of that treatment. In other words, they believe what Charitropakhyan says about women, therefore women ARE immoral and deceitful therefore there is no denigration because they see it as being true. Do you fall in that camp??

    It would be like me writing a story about how men are all rapists and murderers and that women can't trust any man and women should never share their secrets with men, and men should be kept under lock and key and only do what their wives tell them to. ----- And I'll just leave it like that with no explanation. And then think someone in 100 years will say hey, she never meant the outward story, there is a big hidden spiritual meaning there. She isn't denigrating men if you really knew the hidden meaning! Now imagine if I had a status as elevated as our Guru (in any religion). How would men feel reading that???
     
  18. Harry Haller

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    Do you wish to debate the point, or enter into a personal war of words with Harkiranji, if the former, get on with it, if the latter, take it to PM
     
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  19. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Kully Jee
    Why Guru Nanak didn't give acceptance to his own real and authentic sons. I hope this clears your doubt.
    I mean, Is the message in SGGS incomplete to be sachiar that we need to bring DG at par with SGGS? Do DG has any additional information or any mantar for us to be sachiar?
    Then who are we to bring DG at par with SGGS and treat like Guru?
    I don't list anything out of context. And I have noticed you are the master of DG, may bring the whole sabd for clarity.

    Further on one hand DG criticizes jap tap and says, 'ਕਹਾ ਭਯੋ ਜੋ ਦੋਊ ਲੋਚਨ ਮੂੰਦ ਕੈ ਬੈਠਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਬਕ ਧਯਾਨ ਲਗਾਇਓ। ਨ੍ਹਤ ਫਿਰਿਓ ਲੀਏ ਸਾਤ ਸਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਗਯੋ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਗਵਾਇਓ। ਬਾਸੁ ਕੀਓ ਬਿਖਿਆਨ ਸੋ ਬੈਠ ਕੇ ਐਸੇ ਹੀ ਐਸ ਸੁ ਬੈਸ ਬਿਤਾਇਓ। ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੋਂ ਸੁਨ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਭੈ ਜਿਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਕੀਓ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਇਓ। and on other hand glorify jap tap by saying, 'ਅਬ ਮੈ ਅਪਨੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਖਾਨੋ। ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਆਨੋ। ਹੇਮ ਕੁੰਟ ਪਰਬਤ ਹੈ ਜਹਾਂ। ਸਪਤ ਸ੍ਰਿੰਗ ਸੋਭਿਤ ਹੈ ਤਹਾਂ।1। ਸਪਤ ਸ੍ਰਿੰਗ ਤਿਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਹਾਵਾ। ਪੰਡੁ ਰਾਜ ਜਹ ਜੋਗੁ ਕਮਾਵਾ। ਤਹ ਹਮ ਅਧਿਕ ਤਪੱਸਿਆ ਸਾਧੀ। ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ।2।

    Have you ever noticed DG is the cause of division in our maryada
     
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    #18 japjisahib04, Sep 10, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  20. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Harkiran Ji, the post I made was deleted for some reason. It was not about the sources we have been discussing. It was about the Sikh Coalition article which you said they had been hounded and goaded into removing by members on another forum. By chance I happened to visit that forum and see that this was not the case. There was one member who brought it up and and also the reply from the Sikh Coalition.

    At the time I read your post, I felt very upset about this, but even more upset that it turned out to be overblown and totally exaggerated by yourself. This is one of the reasons I started this topic.

    We have to have integrity and be honest when posting here. We are all searching for the truth but we cannot base that search on mistruths. I think it was deleted (not sure why) before you had a chance to see it.
     
  21. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Guru Nanak's test was for the best Sikh. Unless I'm wrong I haven't heard of the UK Monarchy conducting any such tests for their next inheritor of the throne. I hope this clears your doubts.

    No, SGGS is complete to be sachiar. But sachiar is is only half of the Miri Piri of Gurmat. We have to balance sachiar by Miri. That is where DG plays a part.


    Respecting DG is not treating it like Guru.


    I know.

    I'm no master. But it would be better than anything you quote, you bring the whole shabad and also where we can find it for our own ease.


    Where? In your quote?

    No it doesn't. It says that without prem all is futile.

    I have noticed that the rejection of DG over the last few decades and constant disrespecting of it, is causing division in our maryada.

    But before that I have not noticed any division amongst the Sikh for the 200 odd years before that over DG.
     

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