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Hypocrisy of The Sikh Panth

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Admin Singh, Dec 7, 2009.

  1. Admin Singh

    Admin Singh
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    Gurfateh!

    Well, this topic stems from an important discussion going on in another thread... (here)!!

    There is no question of Trusting anybody here. Trust comes into picture where we ourselves have lost the ability to comprehend what is wrong & what is right! Not to question or blindly believing is unbecoming of a Sikh, the seeker, the learner.

    Prof Darshan, to his credit, confesses that he had been parrot feeding/reading Gurbani all his life and now when he has made efforts to understand the real meanings of these scriptures that he has raised his voice. It is our Ego that prevents us from acknowledging the fact that we have been parrot fed all our lives reading or understanding Gurbani without ever contemplating on the real meanings.

    We, very conveniently blame Prof Darshan for creating doubts in the minds of Sikh Panth? But i fail to under How someone can create doubts? How is it possible? Doubts can only be created in the mind of an illiterate person, who has to rely on what is being fed in his mind by the Sants and Babas... Have we, ourselves, lost the ability to read, write and comprehend what is being presented to us as words of The Guru?

    I am afraid it is not the Akal Takh Jathedars and for that matter Prof Darshan who have cast doubts in the mind of The Sikh Panth. It is The Sikh Panth, who has allowed these doubts to crept in due to our sheer ignorance and hypocrisy. Education of Sikh Clergy, Sikh Masses is the only solution. Education eliminates doubts & ignorance and then we don't have to trust just about any third party like a Sant or a Baba.

    How can we believe that what the every other so called Sant or Baba is telling is truth. Only blind faith, nothing more. How do you identify who is a Sant or a Baba? A Sant or a Baba resides in every Sikh itself, need is to take out that Sant residing with us. A Sikh has a very personal relation with his/her Guru! There can be no mediators or third parties to this relation!

    It is astonishing to realize that it could be possible to cast doubts in such a young philosophy called Sikhi, where we have the original, unadulterated Shabad Guru to comprehend and seek guidance. A Blind Faith based on our Trust/Faith is simply not Sikhi! A Sikh is the learner, the seeker. A learner, who can not evolve in his thought process can not be a Sikh or the Khalsa.


    Bhul Chuk Maaf
    My apologies for some harsh language.

    Gurfateh!!


     

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  3. roab1

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    This is a sad fact that most granthis and kirtan doing people are just following a job on hand. they come , get paid and they go! inbetween they lecture a pre-prepared note based lecture/katha which they may or may not understand or believe in! This is sad but true! Only a handful of katha vaachak/parcharak/granthis/kirtaniye know the true essence of Guru Sahib. I think a person tends to go through a learning and growing process all his life, our body may grow old and weak and finally perish, but out knowledge and seeking of truth always remains growing or expanding. I have never listened to any katha or discourse by any sikh parcharak/kirtani/whatever and i really didn't know who prof. was before 300 year celebrations. I think it is extremly childish to cast doubts on intentions of prof. if he is doing exactly the opposite of what he did years before. And Charitropakhyan is something which 99% of normal sikhs have never read or understand, let alone the whole of DG, barring a few banis in nitnem and ardas and some lines, besides it being not in punjabi does not help to its popularity either. Lets appreciate the fact that he atleast acknowledges the state of sikh jathedars and main leaders and parcharaks that they are illiterate and don't really understand the job on hand. No wonders about the present state of sikh panth! He should be respected for coming clean , even thoguh he has no other choice and seeing death near his conscience might be troubling him a little bit more so he is speaking the truth a little louder therefore it is not going down well with those in power as it does not suit their interest, just as it might have not suited him as jathedar a few decades back.
     
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  4. Taranjeet singh

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    Thanks Aman ji for a wonderful post that reveals that we are all sailing in the same boat. We have to learn to learn and practice to practice. There is no time limit prescribed for this. Sabad guru has not made any tall claims about the realization aspect of the Almighty. No one can create doubts .It is also true that all of us are small sant/babas ourselves so why get entrapped by other sants and babas. We do have doubts and in sikhism we have to sort out these doubts ourselves. No external assistance would be very useful. All of us who read and listen to Gurbani tend to assign meaning to it as per our limited understanding and with passage of time the mist should get cleared up.

    Trust should always well up from within and should be reinforced by conviction after reasonable reasoning.
    The sant or baba within us is our conscience that helps us in identifying as to that is as per sikhi or that is not and then it is individual's choice to stick to the one that is as per sikhi , yes a budding new faith. Though I tend to agree that one is required to make lot of efforts and shall continue to learn till we live or persih as my learned friend has stated in the above post.

    Atleast, we shall have the satisfaction that we did that was asked from us and that was expected of us. We all stick to this faith that it shall do good to us and we shall part from this material world with our souls slightly enriched. You have not used any harsh language at all. It is the only way we express when we have to differ from some basics that forms the ground for the ladder-upside.

    Sincere thanks for breaking the ice. I am also in agreement with roab1 ji for his nicely authored post as above.


    to be edited...
     
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  5. ranghi29

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    "Doubts can only be created in the mind of an illiterate person, who has to rely on what is being fed in his mind by the Sants and Babas..."

    if fake babes like ram rahime can creat doubts in peoples mind..the Prof. Darhan is well educated man...So it is 2ce as ease for him to create doubts in peoples mind.. And most of the population in Punjab is illiterate. And yes prof. Darshan is creating doubts in Sikh's Minds.. Doubting Dasam Granth is doubting Dasam Patchia...And doubting Amrit Sanchar. So far All of the Bhram Gyanis are with the fact that Dasam Granth was written by Guru Gubind SIngh ji..

    CAN ANYONE PLEASE NAME A POORNA BHRAM GYANI THAT IS AGAINST DASAM GRANTH??
     
  6. vikram9274

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    But why does it matter what brahm gyanis think? Why can't we just read the Dasam Granth and decide for ourselves if it contains lessons or information of value. If it does then it is good. To each his own. We should make our own decisions by doing our own research. For ex. Teachers in Elementary school will tell you of the Germans killing Jews but they will never teach kids about unnecessary fire bombing done by U.S. and British that killed hundred of thousands and were not needed to win the war. Only after doing research can one learn about that. Keep an open mind, read for yourselves, decide for yourself if it contains useful information and go off of that. This can be applied to anything in life. The courage to question instead of blindly following something or someone is what creates personal and global advancement in every aspect.
     
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  7. ssira

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    This is where the ignorance comes in. You think you can read and interpret Sri Dasm Granth Sahib yourself. I should label you as above Brehm giani. Because even the brehm giani after saying his Katha will say please forgive me guru ji, I maynot have explaned it properly because I do not know with my tuchh( minute) wisdom how to interpret.
     
  8. vikram9274

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    So we shouldn't try and interpret anything for ourselves? And what makes someone else qualified to interpret it? Basically, you are saying I am ignorant and shouldn't try and read and interpret for myself. Instead I should listen to other peoples interpretations? What makes them qualified to interpret it and what makes their interpretations right? I can research a war from different prespectives and form an opinion, that doesn't make me an expert. Just as reading and interpreting doesn't make me a brahm gyani. God gave me free will and a brain, I like to use it. Don't under estimate youself. Go out and take a chance and make decisions for yourself. There are followers, and then there are leaders. there are planners, and then there are doers. I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees.
     
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  9. Admin Singh

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    Gurfateh Ranghi Ji,

    By your own analogy that means only illiterate/ignorant people believe that entire DG to be written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji because doubts can only be cast in the minds of the illiterate.

    How come? You are talking about raising Doubts but Please explain.

    Why a Sodhak Committee of Sikhs was formed in early 1900s to remove some of the contents of Bachittar Natak Granth? We have to also bear this in mind that India was then a slave country under the influence of British, who ruled India nearly for 300 years by treachery and all these anomalies were introduced by them in connaivance with Brahmins/Masands/whatever? Does it not raise doubts in your mind that even in this Sodhak Committee too, there could be people who were under the pressure and influence of British Rulers? How does it not create any doubts in your mind? It certainly does raise quite a few in my mind!

    Who formed such a Shodak Committee? How are we sure that the selection of people in that committee was not doubtful?

    Who gave them the wisdom to discard those 7 other compositions from the already accepted Compilations? On what ground did they discard those compositions? What were the guiding principles?

    Is this omission of 7 compositions not doubtful? It certainly is!

    How did they decide that these 7 particular Compositions do not pass the litmus test of the Gurmat Values and Principles laid down in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Our Only Guru! And How they decided that the rest of the compositions do adhere to the Gurmat Values and Principles laid down in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Our only Guru? Why is that it does not raise any doubt in your mind? It certainly does!

    Were Sodhak Committees actions not doubtful, when they remove these compiliations from Dasam Granth? It certainly does raise doubts?

    Were these people over and above the Guru to decide, which compositions can be added or removed from the Dasam Granth? Why this does not raise doubt in your mind that how dare they remove those 7 compositions from Dasam Granth?

    How do you comprehend that whatever that was finally incorporated into New Granth now called Dasam Granth is the 100% accurate compilation of writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Banies?

    We are talking about Doubts! Doubts were already there about the authenticity of some of the compilations of Dasam Granth because Sikhs fought gallantly for their survival for almost two hundred years and when there was no Sikh presence in the mainstream and while hiding & fighting, there was aplenty of time for these Masands or Brahmins to twist/alter/manipulate the Sikh scriptures and to take Sikhs back to the gutter called Brahmanwad, for which Sikhs fought so gallantly for hundreds of years to get out of it... Two hundred years is enough time to raise doubts in minds of followers of any religion or any philosophy's future generations. It was only the sweet will of the Almighty and the divine intervention that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our Only Guru, could not be manipulated in those two hundred years and the present generation and future generations can revere Him with a secure knowledge that there is no impurity incorporated in Our Guru. :wah:

    Only those people are raising doubts by manipulating or doctoring videos and technology, who are hoodwinked to believe that Sikhs should get back to Brahman-wad fold. They are hell bend upon to revert Sikh Sikhi Sikhism back to Brahman-wad and make future generation of Sikhs slaves of the Brahman-wad.

    Getting back to the Dasam Granth issue, some of the remaining writings naturally do raise doubts in the mind of the learners, the seekers because most of these remaining compositions fail the litmus Gurmat Values and Principles of SGGS miserably. Any writing which does not fall true on the Gurmat values and Principles of SGGS is surely doubtful. And surely, when Guru Gobind Singh ji Himself ordained not to add His Bani into SGGS ji, then who are we to doubt His decision and raise any other Granth alongside SGGS? Can you tell me, Who is actually raising the doubts? :advocate: But as the shadows of ignorance are dispelled with more and more the seeker getting themselves aware of the centuries old conspiracy against Sikhism.

    The only solution to dispel doubts is: The Education of the Masses. There is a great need to bring legible translations of Dasam Granth compositions, in dispute, in their native languages so that even the illiterate Sikhs in villages can read and understand what some of the compilations in this Granth are talking about and how they can even relate to such compositions. Why these so called Pooran Brahamgyanis have not made these translations freely available to the illiterate Sangat in villages? Certainly three hundred years was good enough period to make the illiterate Sikh Sangat aware of the true meanings of these compilations!!

    And then you have raised another important topic: Please explain:

    Who is a Pooran Brahamgyani?

    How do we identify a Pooran Brahamgyani?

    What are the traits of a Pooran Brahamgyani?

    How does one become a Pooran Brahamgyani?

    What is the criteiron for becoming a Brahamgyani?

    What makes you believe that we should accept, in blind faith, whatever a so called Pooran BrahamGyani says over this issue?

    Where were all these so called Pooran Brahamgyanis, during last three hundred years of this controversy?

    Where were these so called Pooran Brahamgyanis, when Brahmins had hijacked the Sikhi for those two hundred years? and were manipulated the Sikh scriptures? Where were these Pooran Brahamgyanis?

    Why they could not take any notables steps to clear the doubts of a common Sikh in all these hundreds of years?

    Why these Pooran Brahamgyanis allowed this controversy to linger on for all these long years?

    And What makes you think that now when all efforts to resolve the controversy are failing and therefore we should now blindly follow these Pooran Brahamgyanis?

    I think you need to clear quite a few of Doubts in my mind before we proceed any further!! :)

    Warm regards

    Gurfateh!


    Aman Singh
     
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  10. ssira

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    I will satrt with your last line there are followers and leaders.
    If you want to be a Duniavi leader I will not even bless you for that. Yes if you want to be Brehgiani type leader my blessing with you.
    Now if a child starts interpreting when they just join the class, you can guess what will be the result. A Sikh is child throughout his life not an interpreter. When a Brehmgiani interpret he says whatever comes from God to him. A Sikh when keep on listening to Brehmgiani’s learn a lot, So much that he can differentiate, what true guru’s teaching is. This doesn’t come easily just reading some books and listening to few giani's. This comes with lot os lisening, daily path reciting, following guru’s preaching and practising in your daily life. Be afraid not to do any mistake that heart other. This afraid is not a fear as from a thief or julamkar but kind of fear that a child has from his Father. (Prof Darshan Singh Ji did that to lot of Sikh Naam Lewa Sangat. It should have been a close door talk until resolved. Once resolved it becomes Panthak Hukam)

    Now about God gave me free will and a brain, I like to use it
    Yes God gave us these powers to recite his name and follow the preaching’s. (As said in SGGS prwxI qMU AwieAw lwhw lYx[ ikrq kro vMf Sko, nwm jpO (gurU nwnk dyv jI) and many more examples like this. Use this brain power for positive thinking not criticising ( ikqMU prMqU Aqy homy ivc Aw ky) guru’s preaching and in proudly way that I have brain.
    I am not here to do excessive baseless discussion. You may not belive in not possible things, Krishman and I don’t believe until you show me type. Our Itihas showed us all that, Guru is Samrath( Guru can do what is impossible, Krishman and believe it or not)
    WGJK WGJKF
     
  11. ssira

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    I am sorrey I did a big mistake by saying my blessing with you. Please read this as God bless you. My mistake
     
  12. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Aman ji,

    I have read and re-read your post and do appreciate your deep concern for sikhi and sikhism. But you are posing questions and we are not aware of and cannot carry out with the discussion.

    Personally speaking, I am a big fan of yours and do read all your posts or say try to read. However, in this post you are not carrying the audience with your self. We are left to presume that there was some shodhak committee set up in 1900 .That is asking for too much from the sangat of which we are all the part. A meaningful discussion can be carried out when you share exactly what you have stated in the self-posed questions and some suggestive answers as if great injustice must have been done. May be so or may not be. But we can deliberate when the questions are with us and we have to ponder over them.

    Regarding the question of Brahmgyani, it is to suggest that Granth sahib especially the part called as 'sukhmani sahib ji' has dealt with this aspect very nicely and I shall sum up for you in two lines that comes to my mind:

    Brahmgyani ki gati Brahmgyan jane ,
    and
    Brahmgyani aap Parmeshar.

    Brahmgyani has been given very high order and respect in SGGS ji.

    In any case this is a forum where we share our views and do not block the discussion where the other member feels suffocated in replying to the queries.

    I do apologize for being blunt in writing this But the fact of the matter is that I have not got you as to what has agitated you so much that the usual fragrance that comes out of your words is missing in this particular post. Please make it light so that we enjoy it and learn as well and can do our bit, if possible, to contribute to sikhism. I am too ignorant to participate in this discussion in the present state of affairs. and it is for you to see that the entire sangat participates for more fruitful results. Discarding a member or bombarding him with so many questions raises many doubts and may well be called as trolling as some learned member stated in some other thread when we were discussing some basics of Ardas.

    We all have the right to participate unless specifically debarred.
    My sincerest apologies for that is unappreciated.Kindly do justice so that we also participate in this. It would, however, be your prerogative only.

    Guru fateh jeo.


    To be edited.
     
  13. Admin Singh

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    Gurfateh Twinkle (name?) Ji,

    There was no intention on my part to suffocate the discussion on this topic but when the other party is so confident of his/her statements when we are discussing about doubts, it becomes of pivotal importance to determine what we actually mean by the word doubt and how carelessly when a person accuses somebody else for creating doubts in the mind of the Sikh Panth in this case.

    To learn about the background of compilations of Dasam Granth, you would like to view this video interview of eminent scholar in Sikh history... I may or may not agree with completely because i have not read much of the Sikh history myself but the historical references are quite important in her statements... here is the link: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/bachi...4-bibi-jugraj-kaur-talks-about-bachittar.html

    I have no doubts about the Brahmagyanis as per gurmat but then i was asking as to how do we identify a Pooran Brahamgyani from a fake, in the following context that he was referring to.

    And all my question still stands:

    Where were all these Pooran Brahamgyanis when all these anomalies were being merged into Sikh scriptures?

    And now when we are facing all the issues why there blanket statements in favour of DG should hold any value?

    Why should i listen to these Pooran Brahamgyanis when i have my only Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to take guidance and get wisdom? :)


    And you query about Dasam Granth omissions and additions:
    The seven compositions that were removed from existing compilations wereWritings that were removed were called

    1. Sahansar Sukhmana
    2. Vaar Malkauns
    3. Vaar Bhagautee Kee
    4. Sri Bhagwant Gita Bhaksha Guru Gobind Singh Kirat
    5. Raag Asa and Raag Sorath Pt. 10
    6. Asfotak Kabits Majh Pt. 10
    7. Chakka Bhagautee Ka

    And Zafarnama was added in this Granth by the Sodhak Committee and this one is quite surely from the pen of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji!

    The question is Who gave permission to remove anything if they believed they were authored by Guru Gobind Singh?

    (Quoted from the references made by dear Harmanjit Singh ji (Our Member: The Khalsa Fauj)!

    Bhul Chuk Maaf
     
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  14. Randip Singh

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    I think anyone with half a braincell can see it is not only hypocrasy, but stupidity, ignorance and stubborness that are causing the problems.

    Many years ago, I too used to reead Bani parrot fashion, and take one line out of context etc. I read to the Dasam Granth. A cursory study of Sikh history reveals that the Dasam Granth is not one continuous document. It is a collection of documents that were salavaged from the sacking of Anandpur Sahib.

    Some maybe attributed to the 10th Master eg Zafarnama, other documents maybe attributed to the poeats in Guruji's court.

    Either way, the 10th Master elected NOT to include ANY of his writings in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, declaring it to be complete. So why the HELL are we today going against the wishes of the 10th Master and putting Dasam Granth on part with SGGS ji?

    The maschenations of cult like groups like the AKJ, DDT, Namdhari's and various Vaisno affiliated groups are driving this forward and causing rifts in the paanth where their are none.

    Where will they stop? They have cause rifts of gender, rifts on caste, rifts on SRM, rifts on diet (declaring vegetarian to be the ideal), rifts on by creating sects, rifts over Khalistan, rifts over Sehajdhari, just rifts rift and controversy.

    Professor ji was 100% correct in his statements. The initial egalitarian and democratic principles of teh Akal Takht have been rubbished, and what we have today, is something along the lines of Royal accession.

    I really do fear for Sikhi, it will dissapear if it continues. Sitting here in the UK, I can say, I am pretty disillusioned. Do I want to be part of a faith who's leaders represent hypocracy, stupity and stubborness. Am I better off just following Sikhism as I understand it?:confused:
     
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    #13 Randip Singh, Dec 10, 2009
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