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Hukamnama-No different to reading a Horoscope?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Harry Haller, Nov 21, 2011.

  1. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Gurfatehji

    I would like some clarifiation as to the procedure of Hukamnama. From what I understand, a random page is selected, and the Shabad can provide an answer to a troubling question.

    This does not sit hugely well with my interpretation of the SGGS as the ultimate book of knowledge and information. This brings a mystical and magical side, almost a ritualistic ceremony to the great book, I would be interested to know the views of others, especially those that , like me, feel the information and guidance contained, read and understood, and then practiced on a daily basis is the way to enlightenment. This seems to cheapen the vast wisdom contained within the SGGS, seems to provide a shortcut that will magically guide you and your problems, without reading or understanding the Shabads either side, or right at the front, or right at the back, I am sure the Gurus did not design the SGGS so that all the best advice was centred in the middle,

    I would very much like to hear a good explanation of this practice, but in my heart, I cannot seem to balance the pragmatism of reading the information with the idea that thinking of a question is going to enable the SGGS to answer it with any clarity or point other than one would get from reading a daily horoscope.
     
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  3. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Harry ji,
    Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is opened to a random page and a shabad is selected for contemplation. From my experience when the shabad is read with complete focus, it provide answers and understanding to my mind's questions and doubts.

    I am not so sure what you find troubling about this. Is it the reading of a random shabad or opening up Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to a random page?

    PS There is a great deal of mysticism in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
     
  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Bhagatsinghji

    I am aware that there is a great deal of mysticism in the SGGS, and I suppose that is what I find troubling, I find the information and guidance contained can stand up on its own, without the need for such mysticism, magic or miracles
     
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  5. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Hahaha
    What troubles you when it comes to mysticism and miracles?
     
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  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Well, I do not believe in either for a start, I find the content enough without the need for a disco ball, a smoke machine and pulling rabbits out of hats.
     
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  7. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    In order to know mysticism, one must meditate. How are your efforts in meditation?
     
  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I do not meditate, wrongly or rightly,

    We all take a different view of Sikhi, my view, and it is only a personal view is that there are hard facts contained in the SGGS, and that to show our love for Creator and Creation, We must convert these facts into actions, for ourselves , and for those around us

    Meditation, in my view, is something I would like to try, but then I am unsure as to what you call meditation,. I think of Creator constantly, talk to Creators essence in my head constantly, I am in my own world a lot of the time, debating issues, attempting to find answers, thinking of questions, all directed at Creator, all answered by Creators essence, sometimes I get a wow moment, when everything falls into place, and I can see the road shining bright ahead, sometimes there is fog.

    What I do not do, is try and get to a higher plane within myself, by chanting or meditating, I have been to enough higher planes in my life that I have learnt to cherish the world, and the earthly plane we call life, and use that solely as my playground
     
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  9. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Sounds like mysticism
     
  10. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Maybe, but what I do not do is attempt to cheat the system by looking for shortcuts, or the belief that the SGGS is a magic being that can provide answers to my questions, and that my dear brother is the point of this thread

    Sure, if I embrace the contents and practice them, I will find my answers, I even have no problem opening a random page, and studying that, but the specific asking of a question and then interpretating the Shabad to get an answer seems a bit ritualistic to me, however, I am more than prepared to accept this, if it can be explained that this is fully within the mandate of Sikhi
     
  11. BhagatSingh

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    SGGS can provide answers to your questions, provided they are the right questions.

    I suppose asking a question then reading the textbook to get the answer is a bit ritualistic but how else does one study for the Chemistry exam? In fact, this is a better ritual that just studying a random page. If you go in looking for something, some doubt or some question your have in mind, you will get much more out of the textbook than if you simply study.
     
  12. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Veerai jio it is a convention,but it is an answer in that it explains the theory of everything,so what would it matter what page you read the answer is not in the page, it is in you ,Gurbani shines a light on it so you can see with clarity so in that way it has all the answers because otherwise you can't approach any situation properly.
    To know how to apply truth to the particulars of a situation we have to live it,whatever page you have read will help because it clears your mind.
    Notwithstanding I have heard that some Granthi's actually have a passage marked to read for certain occasions or for certain requests but let's leave that for another thread.
     
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  13. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Brother,

    With the greatest respect your argument is flawed, as is your example,

    Chemistry is a huge subject with many categories and sub categories, all lumped together under the name chemistry. If you were taking an exam, you would start at the start, and if the author of the book was worth his salt, he would lead you from the start to the finish and educate you on chemistry. He would begin with simple concepts that got harder and harder, but to understand the middle, or even the end of the book, you would find yourself needing to master and learn the start, for example, it is of no use opening the middle, if you do not even know what a mole is....

    It is the same with maths, which is possibly a better example, embrace the concepts of X,Y,Z, and then move to algebra, equations, and by the end, you have the tools and the mental strength to decipher complex algebra equations as you are now familiar with the way these things work.

    By your argument, one could find the answer on what happens when you burn Sodium by opening a chemistry book at random, and mentally asking the question, only a magic book could do that, and I resent the SGGS needing anything other than the information contained to justify its reverence
     
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  14. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Spji,

    Convention..... you mean like a ritual?
     
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  15. BhagatSingh

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    Hahaha! lol

    Of course it's flawed. All analogies are flawed. As for arguments, only you are making them. I am simply speaking from personal experience that if you go looking for something whether that is a Chemistry course or Sikhi you will get much more out of it. Seek and you shall find.

    I have not said one word about magic, yet you keep replying to me as if this is what my post looks like "Magic Magic magic, more magic, magic this, magic that and magic everywhere is magic." Lol
     
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    #14 BhagatSingh, Nov 21, 2011
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  16. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Just because all analogies are flawed, does not mean that we have to use analogies that bear no direct relevence to the subject in hand, or end up proving the very point we are wishing to defend ourselves against, that is the whole point of analogy....

    I would like to think I am defending my position, rather than attacking yours, so that would mean we are both making arguments...

    The question here is random openings of books to get answers, to which your last reply has not addressed, the point you make about getting more from the desire to learn is not even an issue, I would accept that as 100% fact, but your answering a question I have not asked

    In our dialogue today, I have used the word magic once with you

    I am making a point that when you turn the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji into a horoscope, are you acting within Sikhi, that is my only point, you have said that you do it often, you meditate, you ask, and you get an answer, am I correct in this, so that we can move on and try and learn something together
     
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  17. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Horoscope is as Hollow as the man who prepares it. Hukumnama is the 'word of God'. One can compare only two similar things and not two things one that is prepared by an ordinary mortal and the other uttered by The Supreme and Divine God for the mortals.

    Hukumnama reflects HIS will and order as to how a particular day should be spent in the memory and service of humanity.it does no extrapolation for worldly affairs. Horoscope on either microscopic or macroscopic grounds deal with physical or things that are material. Hukumnama is a flow of Order of Lord to the mortals. Hukumnama is Guru ji speaking to himself. Hukumnama is the first gift that a sikh wants for the days. I am sad the day if I cannot for some reasons do not make it to listen to the live really of taking of Hukumnama. For me it is the best thing that happens in the day. I sleep to get up and to listen to Hukumnama..i think purpose of sleep is to listen to hukumnama and make a small note of it as well.
     
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    #16 Taranjeet singh, Nov 21, 2011
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  18. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    It is not the content that is in question Taranjeetji, it is the manner in which it is being read.

    If we are asking for divine answers to divine questions, are we not asking for miracles?

    If I ask for a Hukamnana to give me advice on what to do with my life, is that not asking for a miracle? is not that requesting some sort of magical power to point me the way to the answer?

    Can I take it that the SGGS is more than a respected volume of works, it has mystical powers?

    This last question is hugely important, please think hard before answering, thank you
     
  19. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Harry Veer Ji Horoscope is not a good comparison but I think I understand what you mean,you are saying is there is something magical about how everytime you open a page and it answers the question you have in your mind.Perhaps it's not exactly like that ,it could be the original intention was for us to read different passages every day in order to create a mind that can answer questions.

    Bhagat Singh good to see the Mystical Musketeer has changed his avtar ,I guess that other one was too angry to represent you properly,now you look like you are either meditating or half asleep, which is it pray lol
     
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    #18 Scarlet Pimpernel, Nov 21, 2011
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  20. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Harry Veer ji,
    Hukumnama is generally meant to guide as to how we should spend the day. It does not answer all the question of the sangat but provides an anchor around which the activity of sikh should revolve around. It is taken on daily basis. It provides guidance on day to day basis. On the other hand Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ,our sabad Guru, is always with us to guide us through this life. Hukumnama is no replacement of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as it is only a fractional part of Guru Sahib.
    Yeah! On how it is taken, is a matter that can be left to the prudence of Panth. If the Panth wants a change it may bring about a change. But, speaking personally, anything that has been followed for centuries becomes a tradition and it is very hard to break traditions unless there are very many good reasons of doing the same.

    We have a very popular line 'Bani Nirankaar Hi'. [Word is God]. Word of Guru are the ladder steps to the all mighty. This is only the mysticism. Our reverened friend Gyani ji has clarified that Gurbani is not a Mantra [ in the thread of Sulhi]

    Harry veer ji... Kindly forgive me if in the process of writing today , I might have hurt you. You are a noble person.

    WJKK Sri WJKF
     
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    #19 Taranjeet singh, Nov 21, 2011
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  21. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    :happysingh: Taranjeetji,

    We are debating, all of us, you, me, Spji, Bhagatsinghji, and it is wonderful, it is opening our eyes, our minds, there is nothing written by anyone that could hurt me at all, in fact your calling me noble sits more uncomortably lol

    Ok, I accept the whole point of Daily Hukamnama, but that was never really the topic, it is specifically for the asking of questions from SGGS,
     

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