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http://www.globalsikhstudies.net and Debunking Mcloed

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Randip Singh, Jul 11, 2006.

  1. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    I must say when I read Mcleod's books as a youth it semed to me that his books seemed to be well researched and having the Oxford paperback label must mean they are truthful sccounts of Sikhism. I also remember at the time being unforfortable with some of the conclusions that Mcleod came up with, as they didn't sit true with Sikh tradition.

    As I grew older I read more books and more sources which contradicted Mcleod(and his faithful band). Then I started notocing contradictions in Mcleod's books themselves. He seemed to change his mind from book to book.

    I know now that Mcleod had meant well when studying Sikhism, but his methodology was flawed. Their were huge gaps in his knowledge that only a person who has been brought up in the traditions of Sikhi understands as what I call "background knowledge".

    I knew Mcleod was wrong in his conclusions, and now I have discovered stal wart academics from the Sikh fraternity who have used hard facts to debunk Mcleod's theories. These stallwarts and creme de la creme of sikh intellectuals have published books on www.globalsikhstudies.net. Here is an example of an essay on that site.


    http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/per-sikh-studies.pdf

    I must commend Dr Mann, Jagjit Singh and all for the sterling work they have done in correcting some of the myth making done by Mcleod and his cronies.

    I hope you will join me in supporting www.globalsikhstudies.net.
     
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  3. Admin Singh

    Admin Singh
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    would it be nice if we could invite these dignatories and share their views on SPN... :) Dear Randip please look into the possibilities... Thanks for sharing an important Link.

    Best Regards
     
  4. Ishna

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    I've heard a lot of negative things about Mcleod's work, but being new Sikhism I haven't read enough to be able to discern the good from the bad yet.

    What do people think of the translations of some banis (japji Sahib, Sawaii-yay) in the back of his book Sikhism? ISBN 0140252606?

    Personally I think they are the most beautiful translations I've ever read. I can post some lines if people don't have access to the book.

    If his other work is not credible, then I wonder about the accuracy of his translations, too.

    Thanks!
     
  5. Randip Singh

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    There is an e-mail there Aman, so I think as owner of this site it maybe appropriate for you to get intouch.

    Regards.
     
  6. drkhalsa

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    Dear Ishna






    Just would like to share that as you said youe are new to sikhi so havent read enough to discern good from bad , but actiually it is same situation for all the sikh at some stage of life ,

    As for me I was in Sikhism but really discovered it couple of years back and as in sikhi it hardly matters if you are born in it as you have to look out for it

    So to start with I dont think Mcleod translation of Japuji should have any problem and as learn further in Sikhi you will be guided as I believe by god himself




    JAtinder Singh
     
  7. Randip Singh

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    Hi Jatinder Singh,

    You may not be aware of this but www.globalsikhstudies.net has also found Mcleod translations to be innacurate and very "lazy". I personally would not trust anything that man writes.

    If you want a book with some real conviction and challeges thinking then try The Sikhs by Patwant Singh..........and excellent read.
     
  8. Ishna

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    Thank you Jatinder Singh for your valuable comments.

    Randip Singh Ji:

    I guess one of the things I like most about the translations that Mcleod provides in the book I am referring to is the way he has tried to translate the text into English yet retain some rhythm. And he makes the translations gender neutral, which is something I have not seen in any other translation yet.

    Allow me to share some lines from japji with you:

    *~*~*~*~*

    There is one Supreme Being, the Eternal Reality, the Creator, without fear and devoid of enmity, immortal, never incarnated, self-existent, known by grace through the Guru.

    The Eternal One, from the beginning, through all time, present now, the Everlasting Reality.

    1. Never can you be known through ritual purity though one cleanse oneself a hundred thousand times. Never can you be revealed by silent reflection though one dwell absorbed in the deepest meditation. Though one gather vast riches the hunger remains, no cunning will help in the hereafter. How then is Truth to be attained, how he veil of falsehood torn aside? Nanak, thus it is written: Submit to the divine Order, walk in its way.

    2. Though all that exists is its visible expression, the divine Order is far beyond all describing. All forms of life are created by it, and it alone can determine who is great. Some are exalted, some abased; some must suffer while others find joy. Some receive blessings, others are condemned, doomed by the divine Order to endless transmigration. All are within it, none can evade it. They, Nanak, who truly comprehend it renounce their blind self-centred pride.

    3. They who are strong sing of the Supreme One's might; they who receive gifts sing of grace. Some acclaim majesty and wonders performed; others from their learning discern wisdom to be praised. Some praise power made manifest in creation, how life is raised up, cast down, and reincarnated anew. Some sing of distance, of dwelling afar; others of presence, immanent in all creation. Countless the number who tell of the Supreme One, describing in endless ways. None can ever hope to succeed, for none can encompass infinity. Continual the giving with endless gifts, caring for us and endlessly supplying our needs. The divine Order it is that directs our path. For ever joyous is the Divine One, Nanak, for ever free from care.

    4. The Eternal One whose Name is Truth speaks to us in infinite love. Insistently we beg for the gifts which are by grace bestowed. What can we offer in return for all this goodness? What gift will gain entrance to the hallowed Court? What words can we utter to attract this love? At the ambrosial hour of fragrent dawn meditate on the grandeur of the one true Name. Past actions determine the nature of our birth, but grace alone reveals the door to liberation. See the Divine Spirit, Nanak, dwelling immanent in all. Know the Divine Spirit as the One, the eternal, the changeless Truth.

    *~*~*~*~*

    And it goes on like this, obviously, for 32 stanzas and then the epilogue.

    "Lazy" is not a term I would apply to this particular rendering, I guess may be a more appropriate term rather than translation.

    He has put in effort to beautify Japji in English, rather than translate it word-for-word as is the case with most other translations I have found. Although I will add that each translation I have found has been beautiful because beauty is inherant in a work of such divine magnitude.

    Mcleod just makes the language of it smooth and rolling. Much more pleasant to read and speak.

    My real question then, it would seem, is is this translation accurate in it's integral meaning.

    My gut tells me it is. I think a serious comparison is in order. *pulls out some other Japji translations* Ishna's got a project!

    Hahaha, look at that, Ishna also found Sikhphilosophy's Japji forum! Hahahaha. :}{}{}:
     
    #7 Ishna, Jul 12, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2006
  9. drkhalsa

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    Dear Randip Singh Ji


    Your valuable suggestions are always welcome .

    I will try to read your website and also try to read the Book you have mentioned .Thanks again for the guidance .

    During the course of time I have arrived to conclusion ( which can prove absolutely wrong !) that there cant be translation of gurbani in real sense . I some time feel my personal inability to fully absorb the essense of gurbani Tuk and at tpther times I could do so .

    For me more important is to learn more about the words and language that has been used by Guru Sahibans and then try to feel the love of Gurbani.

    But as suggested by YOu the book by Patwant Singh might help create more clear understanding about gurbani so I will try that ,

    Thanks



    Dear Ishna Ji


    Yes Indeed you have reached the right place i.e Japuji sahib threads on this forum .
    there translation done by AMARPAL JI is worth reading .


    Jatinder Singh

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