Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Heh Carolibne ji,

I get the same sort of response from many Sikhs when I broach the same sort of topics. Unsupprisingly Sikhi is not imunne to all of the human failings that any other faith is. I have already said that I have meet perhaps two Sikhs in my life who truely walk with God(none of them is me). It is a hard way we have chossen.

But as many of my brothers and sisters would tell me; 'if you but take one step towards God, then God will take 10,000 steps towards you'

Thank you. And thank you for your explanation of maryada. When I compare things, it is not meant to criticize one or the other. I am an anthropologist and I look for differences and similarities because I love both. It's no different then when two people are getting to know each other and one says, "I love walking in that park at dusk." and the other says excitedly, "Really? So do I!!" By the same token, one may like pickles and the other hates them.. well, that's fun and interesting too. It doesn't mean you're bad because you like pickles and I don't. It just means you get extra pickels when we eat at the deli. :ice: And so, in that spirit, from your explanation I think perhaps the maryada is more like what some faiths call their "doctrine." It's sort of a common code of conduct that binds them together, and sometimes defines them in various groups.

I love what you said about taking a step towards God -- one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard was something a Sikh man said in a lecture on Sikhi. It was also one of the things that really drew my heart to Sikhi. He was a university professor and he said one of his students was a strict Christian. One day he got into a discussion with her about what she believed and he asked about heaven and hell. She told him only people who believed as she did would go to heaven. He asked her, what about the others? She replied that they would be going to hell. The Sikh asked, what about the Sufi who practices his religion to the best of his capability all his life and does good in any way he can? Hell, she replied. And the Sikh then asked about the Hindu who practiced his faith with all his heart and soul and never veered from it. The Hindu as well. So the Sikh asked, what about me then? Sorry to have to say this, she replied, but you will go to hell too.

He said he thought for a minute and said that, if hell was where God wanted to send him then he would go because all a Sikh wants from God is to love Him.

I love Sikhi for many reasons, mainly because of what I understand to be it's fluidity at its roots. I often think of the famous words of Guru Nanak when he said, there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim... Because, for me, I've never been able to find a religious path that was stretchy enough for the kind of love I want to be able to give to God. I think Sikhi might just be the one. Of course, as any religion, there's people in it. :shifty: But people are fun too... that's probably because God has such a wonderful sense of humor.

Really though, don't we just think too much of ourselves? Isn't that the funniest thing of all? And perhaps the saddest as well. Like thoughts and opinions are based in reality and reality is some sort of unbendable fence that nobody can change or go around. Like there's no warps in it! LOL

I have been corresponding with a very learned Sikh scholar who is one of the humble humans I've ever known. I ask him all sorts of nutty questions about Sikhi and he answers them so patiently and beautifully. And one of the most profound things he's ever said to me was when he had written a very deep explanation of Sikhi structure, history, ideas, etc.. He ended the message with the phrase, "Please ignore what you deem is not healthy or beneficial!"

I was awestruck. I had never encountered that kind of pure confidence in one's faith. That's when I really started seeing Sikhi as fluid and stretchy -- not rigid and unforgiving as so many of the faiths I had known heretofore.

I just want to root out the true original message because it seems like the only vehicle I have found that is kind enough to let me love God like I need to love God.

If that makes sense. All the other is just superflous bits of human vanity. But that is just my opinion -- please ignore what you deem unhealthy!

 

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Caroline ji,

I'm human.

I have the 5 vices within me, and chances are, unless with waheguru's grace, i will always be prey to them.

Sherab ji,

Rarely in my life have a met someone your age with such a kind and sincere heart and such a passion to live with meaning. I admire you for that and I'm sure a lot of other people do too.

 

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

wow. you've really read a lot into a few words.

Sometimes there is a lot to be found in a few words.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Caroline ji

You have been sustaining a beautiful and uplifting conversation in this thread. Thank you.

 

[puresoul]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I ddnt marry out of caste as been married 13 years ago. I think the crux of issue of marrying out of caste exist in the fact that inspite of modernisation how many of us would have liberty to go for self decision in our marriage. So the onus is on parents. But I would comment if me being parent have to decide, I would prefer rationally whether marrying to particular girl/boy will ensure good and stable life for my offsprings which is more important than drawing caste lines. Ofcourse for any initiative out of our cocoonic social shell we need to nip in bud beforehand any possible contradiction of ethics.

 

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Caroline ji

You have been sustaining a beautiful and uplifting conversation in this thread. Thank you.

Thank you so much for saying this. I have been feeling more peaceful and loving since I've started reading the daily hukamnama and the SGGS. I also have been getting up early and meditating. I feel like my heart is changing and the anger inside me is slipping away from me more and more each day. There's this song that I've been keeping in my mind that says, "May the long time sun shine upon you, all love surround you, and the pure light within you lead your way on." And when people are people I try to say this in my heart as a prayer for them. It's awesome... as I say this prayer I can feel my heart change and then their heart changes and then there's peace and compassion between us.

Waheguru... wonderful creator... Truth is so far beyond any of our ideas and imaginary boundaries that we try to draw between ourselves. And our lives are so short I think all we can do is try to create peace as much as we are capable and pass some more loving, open thoughts to the next generation.

For me, I've found what I need in the one True Guru, God, the Creator and I've found the best method for me to do that is Sikhi.

I'm real happy about that.

 

[Lee]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

i think the cleanliness aspect is confusing. it's not that ONLY amritdhari sikhs are clean. it's that amritdhari sikhs are (hopefully) following the same maryada and are not taking intoxicants, etc.

it's not like ritual hindu impurity because ANY sikhs can become amritdhari if they wish. so it's not really "excluding" anyone.

i also don't see the big deal, i mean, why do you care if i don't eat off your plate? why should that offend anyone? you can certainly eat MY leftovers if you like. i just will choose not to eat yours.

i hope this is starting to make sense?

I think the point is to question why. Saying that it says so in maryarda is, for some, not enough. Why should we partake in a practice that seems to us to engourage diverivness?

 

[Lee]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

so do you feel your brain is superior to those who walked with our Gurus? to the Panj Piyare who represent Waheguru himself?

i'm sorry you have met so few "true" sikhs. where do you live? perhaps i can introduce you to some. i've been blessed to meet many young chardi kala sikhs in my short life... there are some really incredible people around if you look for them.

Jasleen Ji,

Now I'm confussed, I belive that we are still talking about the Rehat maryada, and specificaly it's intsruction for Amdrehti not to eat from the same plate as non baptised Sikhs?

Are you telling me this instructin now comes from 'those who walked with Guru'?

I'm in the habit of questioning everything, and when it comes to religoin, it is more important still to question, or we risk blindly following dogmatic thinking.

It is not a crime to question the authors of the rehat maryarda, and ask wether Guru was with them in their deliberations.

I live in London, UK. Funnily enough the Sikhs I have talked about were not old men, indeed one of them was not even a man.

 

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I'm in the habit of questioning everything, and when it comes to religoin, it is more important still to question, or we risk blindly following dogmatic thinking.

Indeed! And after all, isn't that the purpose of this forum?

You raise a very important issue my brother.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I think the point is to question why. Saying that it says so in maryarda is, for some, not enough. Why should we partake in a practice that seems to us to engourage diverivness?

and saying it is maryada IS enough for many of us. i'm sorry i cannot answer your questions better.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Jasleen Ji,

Now I'm confussed, I belive that we are still talking about the Rehat maryada, and specificaly it's intsruction for Amdrehti not to eat from the same plate as non baptised Sikhs?

Are you telling me this instructin now comes from 'those who walked with Guru'?

I'm in the habit of questioning everything, and when it comes to religoin, it is more important still to question, or we risk blindly following dogmatic thinking.

It is not a crime to question the authors of the rehat maryarda, and ask wether Guru was wit h them in their deliberations.

I live in London, UK. Funnily enough the Sikhs I have talked about were not old men, indeed one of them was not even a man.

who do you think wrote the original rehetnamas? the close associates of Guru sahib with inputs from the Gurus themselves. these have been studied, researched, cross referenced for years by many extremely respected scholars and distilled into the current sikh rehat maryada. to follow maryada is not "blind" or "dogmatic", it's just part of sikhi.

Miri and Piri. Temporal and Spiritual. Sant and Saphai. Gurbani and Maryada. these are core concepts of sikhi. to say that maryada is unimportant or wrong is to undermine half of the religion.

Sikhs are Akal Purkh ki Fauj, the "army of God". every army has a uniform and rules, and so do we.

if one wishes to follow only the spiritual aspects of sikhi without caring for the code of conduct, i do not believe it is appropriate to call oneself a sikh. some people use the term "nanakpanthi", but even that seems wrong to me. even Guru Nanak Dev ji focused on both temporal and spiritual aspects, telling us to work hard, live honestly, give to the poor, and keep our hair uncut.

if you undermine one aspect of maryada you can question all of it. these are the same excuses people use to say they can cut their hair, drink alcohol, take drugs, etc, etc...

i made a commitment to my Guru to follow his hukam. i do that by following maryada. if you have not made such a commitment, feel free to do as you like, but please don't tell those of us who follow our Guru that we are wrong for doing so.

 

[Lee]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

and saying it is maryada IS enough for many of us. i'm sorry i cannot answer your questions better.

Jasleen ji,

I quite understand. We can of course agree to disagree.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

<<even Guru Nanak Dev ji focused on both temporal and spiritual aspects, telling us to work hard, live honestly, give to the poor, and keep our hair uncut.>>

jasleen ji

i know i am am raking upa sensitive issue, but without getting into a debate- can you please provide me reference to the last point?

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

<these have been studied, researched, cross referenced for years by many extremely respected scholars and distilled into the current sikh rehat maryada. to follow maryada is not "blind" or "dogmatic", it's just part of sikhi.

Miri and Piri. Temporal and Spiritual. Sant and Saphai. Gurbani and Maryada. these are core concepts of sikhi. to say that maryada is unimportant or wrong is to undermine half of the religion.>>

a small correction jasleen ji

the maryada- as defined by SGPC is a part of the religion "sikhism" ( for which SGPC gives licenses ) and are not linked to sikhi

sikhi is linked to only and only Gurbani.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

<these have been studied, researched, cross referenced for years by many extremely respected scholars and distilled into the current sikh rehat maryada. to follow maryada is not "blind" or "dogmatic", it's just part of sikhi.

Miri and Piri. Temporal and Spiritual. Sant and Saphai. Gurbani and Maryada. these are core concepts of sikhi. to say that maryada is unimportant or wrong is to undermine half of the religion.>>

a small correction jasleen ji

the maryada- as defined by SGPC is a part of the religion "sikhism" ( for which SGPC gives licenses ) and are not linked to sikhi

sikhi is linked to only and only Gurbani.

but you do agree in miri and piri, temporal and spiritual, sant and soldier? Sri Guru Granth Sahib gives us the spiritual, the sant... where do we find the temporal? SGGS is not a rule book like the koran or bible. where do you recommend we find a code of conduct, a basic standard for behavior that defines sikhs?

for the record, if anyone doesn't want to follow the rehat maryada, that is their decision. i don't want you to think i'm pushing my beliefs on others. but personally, i have made a commitment to my Guru to follow his Code of conduct and i try my best to do so.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

<<even Guru Nanak Dev ji focused on both temporal and spiritual aspects, telling us to work hard, live honestly, give to the poor, and keep our hair uncut.>>

jasleen ji

i know i am am raking upa sensitive issue, but without getting into a debate- can you please provide me reference to the last point?

In the Giaan Rutnaavli, there is a story about Bhai Mardana. He was traveling by himself and stayed at Bhai Neeru’s house for a while. While there, Bhai Neeru asked, “You are very blessed that you get to spend so much time with Guru Nanak. You have gained a lot of wisdom from the Guru. Bless me and teach me some of what you learnt from the Guru.”

Bhai Mardana responded, “The Guru always gives three orders to all of his Sikhs. I will tell you the same three orders.”

Then Bhai Mardana gave the following three orders:

1) Wake up early in the morning and meditate (amrit vela)

2) Always be ready to serve any gursikhs that you meet.

3) Never cut any hair on your body.

In the Junamsakhi, it says:

AwKy nwnk Swh s`c suxhu bhwaudIn pIr[

ihMdU muslmwn doie isr guMm QIey zhIr[

Translation:

Guru Nanak said, “listen to the truth saint Buhoudeen, both Hindus and Muslims have been separated from God by cutting their hair.

Here is another verse:

Av`l suMnq mUey hYN isr qy rKY joie[

pwvY murwqbw s`XdI vfw irKISr hoie[

Translation:

The hair is the gift of God, who ever keeps it on his head, in this world and the next world, he will receive respect.



::::Origin of Khalsa ::::


of course, if you don't believe in the janam sakhis, you probably will not believe this either.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

yes jasleen ji

i understand that janamsakhis are important informational documents, but i am not sure if i would base my life on those. instead i chose to use the guidance of SGGS.

once again, thanks for your responses, and as quite usually we choose to disagree

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

<<but you do agree in miri and piri, temporal and spiritual, sant and soldier? Sri Guru Granth Sahib gives us the spiritual, the sant... where do we find the temporal? SGGS is not a rule book like the koran or bible. where do you recommend we find a code of conduct, a basic standard for behavior that defines sikhs?>>>

jasleen ji

i disagree that SGGS doesnot guide us.

ah, this discussion can split into two levels. Day to day activity guidance - what to eat, iron bowls, what type of clothes etc..

and second level is guidance to conduct our life, the rare chance, in a way to acieve the Goal.

i am not sure how helpful reading SGGS can be for that

those are dogmas of a religion and i am not sure if SGGS and Guru Nanak were propogating a religion/cult.

however, for the second motive - the whole SGGS is only thing you need besides your willing mind

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

jasleen ji

i disagree that SGGS doesnot guide us.

i have NEVER said such a thing. please refrain from twisting my words.

thank you.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

jasleen ji

i am not twisting your words.

for the points you mentioned: specifically - <<SGGS is not a rule book like the koran or bible. where do you recommend we find a code of conduct, a basic standard for behavior that defines sikhs?
>>>

SGGS HAS a code of conduct

SGGS doesnot have the rehats which are touted by SGPC

re reading my earlier post, i found that it was not clear. However my intention was not to twist your words but to clarify that SGGS has the codes required to lead life