Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

How Do You Prove God in Sikhism?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by TigerStyleZ, Jun 6, 2011.

  1. TigerStyleZ

    TigerStyleZ
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    318
    My Question is above, how do you prove that God exist ? For example to convert a non-religious to a sikh.
     
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    How do you know God Exists? does SGGS prove god exists? Questions and Answers Mar 24, 2013
    Existence Of God: can it be Proved. Sikh Sikhi Sikhism Feb 29, 2008
    I am feeling very very down right now ... What can I do to improve my condition. A hopeless feeling. Sikh Youth Oct 15, 2013
    Punjabi Proverbs - Add Your Favorites! Punjab, Punjabi, Punjabiyat May 13, 2013
    Prove You're Sincere, Faith Council Tells PM Interfaith Dialogues May 20, 2011

  3. Enlighten Me

    Enlighten Me
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    31
    Personally I don't think one should try persuading others into a faith.

    Why would you want to convert a non-religious person when Sikhs believe that we are all equal and that we should respect people regardless of their religious belief... we are all one. Being a Sikh, atheist, agnostic, Jew etc shouldn't make a difference.


    I don't think it's possible to prove or disprove God's existence. If you believe in God and you're content with that belief then why would you feel the need to go around 'converting' others...

    All you should do is share your beliefs with people, if they want to know, without having the intention to try and make them convert into something that you believe.

    One thing you shouldn't do is preach to people or come across arrogant in your views arguing that what you believe is the 'truth' and that you're better than them because you have faith etc. This is a very ugly and annoying trait that I have come across whilst conversing with [some] religious people.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. TigerStyleZ

    TigerStyleZ
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    318
    Enlighten Me, I know that... It was only an example, I mean a muslim asked me if he shows me the "Truth" , would I convert to Islam? Then we reached a point, where he said how do you prove god. I told him i feel it, I know God is here. I said everything has a origin... but we can´t prove that origin, because we will never get that smart as god. And don´t you want to show people the "truth", or show them that a God exists? I want to give the people a faith... could it be Islam, Christendom, Judaism or Sikhism.....
     
  5. Enlighten Me

    Enlighten Me
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    31
    How will we know what the 'truth' is?

    We can convince ourselves, fool ourselves into thinking that what we believe is the utmost truth but does that really make it true?

    Religious discussions are good because they broaden your mind but I wouldn't burden myself thinking I should 'give the people a faith'.

    With regard to the Muslim you have spoken to, I disagree with his/her approach. Why does everything have to come back to converting... religion is highly subjective. Don't bother discussing religion with someone so arrogant who will not listen to your point of view but will try their best to convince you that what they believe is 'true' and that everything you stand for is 'wrong'... and you yourself should avoid becoming like that.

    The way I see it is that we're all on a journey, we can't be sure of anything but all you can do is research, debate, question and follow your intuition.

    Religion is personal, spiritual... religion isn't a competition, proving one is better than the other... those people that see religion that way do not understand the true meaning of it.

    :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. bawaj

    bawaj
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2006
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    19

    You cannot prove that God exists in Sikhism because to define God means you have some comprehension of what God is which in a way kills god. God is unknowable and beyond time and existence.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    This question has no basis...its drawing lines in water...the moment you complete one..it disappears...and YET the "line" was clearly viisble at moment of drawing....so will your "proofs" behave the same way...each one will look good for a moment..and then sink..because GOD is the WATER..not the LINES..God is PROOF !!
    2. How do you wash a piece of coal so that its blackness disappears and it glows RED ? washing with MILK,,lassee..yoghurt..bleach..whatever will NOT make its blackness go away...BUT return it to the FIRE..and watch it GLOW....Man will GLOW when GOD is close !! The PROOF is FIRE...not the coal and the Coal can only prove it by returning to the FIRE...
     
    • Like Like x 5
  8. Archived_Member16

    Archived_Member16
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,451
    Likes Received:
    3,761
    FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

    Just like you don't see butter in milk. But after churning it you can get butter.
    Similarly WAHEGURU / GOD is present in HIS creation! You need to do regular & extensive churning: seva, simran & sangat with total faith & determination to experience HIM personally!

    Every soul has his / her own spiritual life path to WALK, not merely TALK! ( actions , NOT words )! Thus you can eventually find your true life purpose on this earth through Waheguru / God. The key is limitless PATIENCE & PRACTICE !
     
    • Like Like x 3
  9. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    Sikhism is a non-missionary faith. We do not convert, we attract.

    Take the example of the Panj Pyaras. They volunteered themselves.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  10. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
    Expand Collapse
    Apache Spark, Scala developer
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,458
    Likes Received:
    2,147
    These are the questions I fire sometimes at atheists:

    Before you ask yourself.. is there a God?

    You should ask yourself..

    Do you believe in Truth?
    Do you believe in Knowledge?
    Do you believe in Destiny?
    Do you believe in Universe?
    And its existence?
    Do you believe in Your existence?

    Yes, you do believe in God!
     
    • Like Like x 3
  11. TigerStyleZ

    TigerStyleZ
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    318
    Thanks to all for all of these answeres, I by myself know there is a god.. I think I asked the question wrong. Im not forcing anyone to convert to sikhism, I wanted to attract them. So all of you are right.. Thanks... :mundabhangra:

    Special Thanks to Gyani Jarnail Singh for that nice example :happymunda:
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    Thats exactly how Bani describes Onkaar.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  13. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    Although not directed at the author, I feel that anyone who insists on the proof of god, has no interest or concept in the deeper relationship.

    Knowing god is not a competition, where you get more bonuses for conversions, or extra bonuses for good actions,

    there is a proof of god that is available to anyone, its called faith
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
    Expand Collapse
    ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
    Writer SPNer Contributor Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    5,657
    When Science closes shop saying that everything has been discovered that needs to be discovered for humanity they would have discovered God! Do let me know when that happens! :mundaviolin: lol

    Any religion portending to show you God, ask them to be happy and "Live and let Live" see which one's leave you alone! Those are closer to the understanding of God.

    Sikhism gives you such a gift to be yourself and search/understand through self and Sangat study not dictation. Choice is yours!

    Challenge is to discover as much and not be discouraged that you don't discover all!mundahug . Let us leave some to be discovered for the generations to come. Be at balance with as much as you have discovered and be in as much consonance with your knowledge/discovery and what is around.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    #13 Ambarsaria, Jun 7, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2011
  15. skeptic.freethinker1

    skeptic.freethinker1 United States
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    74
    Harry Haller ji,

    Faith is not a proof of anything.

    By definition 'faith' means a belief that is not based on proof.
    If you feel like it, look it up on dictionary.com.
    And believing in something without reason or proof has another name too...'superstition'.

    If a person [faith]fully believes that a black cat crossing his path would bring him bad luck, it still remains a blind superstition, no matter how much faith a person has in this silly belief.

    The only difference is that we like to call our own beliefs as 'faith' and other people's beliefs as 'superstition'.
     
  16. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel
    Expand Collapse
    We seek him here,we sikh
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    978
    Likes Received:
    1,081
    "God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty."
    St.Paul
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    Skepticji,

    I had a long discussion with my wife yesterday as we lay in bed, one dog cuddled in the middle of us, the other lying by my wifes feet, I tried to explain to her, as best I could about theories of wolves and Abbraxus, and the sometime mental torture of two equal and opposing bodies with completely different points of view vying for domination,. My wife has no notion of any of these things, she is a nurse, she can explain everything I feel using phsycology and logic, her analysis is almost scientific. However she uses these words and phrases to explain how I feel, and how I may help myself. I have no doubt she understands exactly what I am going through, but that is just her way of analysis and advice.

    For me, these are just words, I know in my chest beats two hearts, I know how gentle I can be as a man, and how intent on pleasure I can be as a wolf,I find it difficult to express these feelings and drives in 'normal' language, my wife confessed to me that it had been some time since she had been torn in the way I described, and was fully at peace with herself.I looked at my wife, and asked her if she had ever felt 'special', she replied that feeling special was merely a manifestation of ego, and that she was flesh and bone just like everyone else, and was making the best use of her time and body,. I was not expecting that, I expected her to say yes, as indeed I would have,it makes me wonder out of the two of us, who is further down the path, the difference is she accepts, whilst I am still looking

    There is a point here, the word 'faith' to me is a highly personal word, and I think anyone with an ounce of spirituality would understand that. I cannot argue with you about dictionary references, any more than I could convince my wife that big hairy teethy wolves are my problem. Whilst my wife understood, but finds it amusing to translate my glamorous mental state into something more mundane and simple. We searchers do not need proof of god, we have it, it is our faith, not the dictionary word, but a word that means different things to different searchers. I have faith that one day man and wolf will be united, and Abbraxus will be gone, I really really believe that, and on that day, I am going to go down to my local Gurdwara and have myself baptised and put my turban back on.

    If you look deep within yourself, you will find god,. You will know it is god as deep within you there is a pool of light and information, and it is never wrong, now for me this is absolute fact, not rhetoric, Abbraxus also lives in me, there is no doubt about that too, but he is a tiresome unwelcome guest now, he gives me divine pleasure, but only for the moment, gods gifts are understanding, knowledge, forgiveness and serenity, they are not feelings or sensations, they are tools with which to live my life on this earth until I am complete. Now I can feel all this, I am sure other readers can relate in some way, but if you are going to attempt to argue this point, choose your arguments carefully, copying and pasting dictionary definitions just will not do, you are going to have to bring something to the table from within, from your own heart, this is not a competition where you get a prize for disproving everything, all you are doing is building barriers between yourself and the creator using human words.

    Anyone looking for concrete tangible proof of god is always going to be disappointed, I cannot speak for what other religions teach, although I sometimes watch them on the religious channels on TV, none are the same, some teach that this is a temporary world, and on death, if you have been a good boy, you go to heaven, where, depending on which religion you follow, there will be women, nectar, ambrosia rice pudding, no pain, no suffering. Some teach that you are born evil and will stay evil unless you have the constant vigilance of god in you.

    Whereas, good old sikhism, teaches me that there is inside of all of us a copy of the eternal truth handbook. And this handbook contains every action in every situation as the eternal truth dictates. If you can hear that voice, and tune into it, then you will turn your life on earth into heaven, and also find enlightenment. That book is your proof of god, I defy anyone not to confirm its presence within them
     
    • Like Like x 3
  18. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
    Expand Collapse
    ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
    Writer SPNer Contributor Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    5,657
    Harry Haller ji very wonderfully and truthfully stated.

    None of your statements are faith or superstition. It is extremely important to seek from inside without artificial tools or concepts. Dialog in first person is dialog of discovery while most of others are musings, bickering or fights which ignore the great gifts residing in each and everyone of us.

    If one can not use what is within in discovery in first person, they will forever be mired in faith and superstition. The following is self discovery statements from Baba Bulleh Shah, Enjoy!

    For those who understand Punjabi,


    Sat Sri Akal.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    Harry Ji,
    Beautiful touching post...and very personal because my dogs also sleep with us..all five of them...3 others didnt like it from day one and sleep downstairs..but the 5.. 1-3 year olds understand bed time/nitnem time like Alarm Clocks....and never had a problem with sharing my bedroom or a lost nights sleep ever...You have put forward your thoughts very nicley. Thanks esp becasue I depend on SPN to "fund" my Gurbani class discussions...so far i have never been disappointed....SPN is a gold mine due to its intelligent and articulate posters...and I can always depend on Ambarsariah ji to provide the best Video to accompany ay discussion..guaranteed.
    Regards to all
    jarnail singh
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. skeptic.freethinker1

    skeptic.freethinker1 United States
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    74
    Harry Haller Ji,

    I understand that you have faith and you truly believe existence of God to be an absolute fact.

    The issue is that the reasoning you put forward can also be applied to existence of many other things like unicorns and Santa Claus if faith is the only criteria.

    For example someone can say "If you look deep within yourself, you will find Santa Claus,. You will know it is Santa Claus as deep within you there is a pool of light and information, and it is never wrong, now for me this is absolute fact, not rhetoric"
    I just took your comments and replaced the word God with Santa Claus.

    The person putting forward the above reasoning would also have faith in the existence in Santa Claus but that wouldn't really give any credibility to his claims. Then why do we have a different set of rules to judge the claims that God's existence is a fact whereas Santa Claus is just make believe!
     
  21. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Well, if you want to call God Santa Claus, sure, go ahead. You cannot name that which we normally call God. God is just a label. Sikhs call that Truth, Waheguru, Ram, Govind, Hari, Allah. These are just labels. In order to know what is there, you have to find out on your own.

    Don't take Harry's word for it. Don't take my word for it. Don't anyone's word for it. Do it yourself. Make your own tools. You'll need these tools to observe that which everyone here is calling God.

    The idea is to achieve clarity of perception. You see Freethinker ji, your normal programming, your normal way of living, your conditioning prevents you from seeing it. It prevents you from realizing the truth.

    The first step is finding out what is clouding your perception exactly, what is preventing you from seeing the truth?

    To know the barriers, you will have to look inwardly because they are in you, they are part of you. You identify with them to the point where you think these barriers are you.

    So look inwardly for as long as it takes. Come back and share the experiences.

    Peace

    PS Also realize that argumentation or discourse can help you build the tools but is not going to get you to the truth. So using that to realize "God" is going to be futile.

    Faith won't be necessary either. Only faith in yourself to turn inwardly, to introspection; that will be enough.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page