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Sikh News Harper defends same-sex marriage stance

Discussion in 'Breaking News' started by Neutral Singh, Jan 26, 2005.

  1. Neutral Singh

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    http://www.fftimes.com/index.php/3/2005-01-25/19879
    Harper defends same-sex marriage stance
    Fort Frances Times, Canada - 17 hours ago

    ... at voters who don’t traditionally cast ballots for the party and timed to coincide with a week of high-level attacks on same-sex marriage from Sikh and Roman ...
     
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  3. ravisingh

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    Personally, I am all for same-sex marraige. I think that people that oppose this do not realize that the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms (the same peice of legislation that protects ALL minorities from the tyranny of the majority) must be protected at all costs. It is because of this important peice of legislation that Sikhs and other minority groups enjoy many of the rights that they do today. No matter what your views on same-sex marraige I think that as Sikhs we have a duty to protect minority groups such as same-sex couples.

    Why does it bother people what others do in the privacy of their own homes? I hear people argue that marraige is for procreation but these same people do not oppose when older couples, with no chance of producing children, want to get married. I have yet to come accross a single good argument for why same-sex marraige should not be permitted in Canada.

    For that matter, I do not understand why the Jathedar felt the need to speak on this issue it is purely an in internal Canadian issue --the proposed legislation does not force any place of worship to marry same-sex couples. Also I find it odd that the previous jathedar spent 4 year examining an internal protocal issue (whether Gurudwara should have tables and chairs in langar) but, as far as I have heard this jathedar did not study or consult Sikhs on the much more important and significant issue of same-sex marraige rights. He seems to have just come out with it on his own --unsolicited and completely unaware of the significant issues ssurrounding it. I guess it goes to show how out of touch they really are.
     
  4. Neutral Singh

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    Some really very valid arguements indeed...
     
  5. thecoopes

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    I’m confused? Which I would accept is probably not that difficult a thing to achieve!



    The issue of same sex marriage surely should be down not to what we think is right or wrong but what the God who we profess to worship views as right or wrong?



    I have changed my personal views on this and find that the subject is more complicated than just accusing people of being deviants.



    The Christian perspective based on the Bible is one that cannot accept such a thing and indeed the farce of what we see happening today with some clergy not only openly accepting homosexual marriage but also engaging in it smacks more of thumbing their noses to God than any new enlightenment in their understanding of scripture.



    If we continue to adjust Gods word to encompass any and everything we find does not suit us then surely what is the point of saying that God is our father and looking for guidance from him?



    I do not know what Sikh beliefs are so I cannot comment, however any religion that says everything is open and acceptable and down to the individual is surely just a cop out?



    Without rules there is anarchy, without obedience there is disharmony.



    John c
     
  6. CaramelChocolate

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    It depends on the Christian and the approach the Christian has. A conservative deontological Christian would be against it, however a liberal teleological Christian is likely to argue that homosexuality is not actually mentioned in the Bible.


    Personally I do not believe the Bible is from God. But I still stand by my view that homosexuality is not mentioned in the Bible.



    Sikhism says sex after and in marriage, so I guess this applies to homosexuals too since homosexuality is not mentioned in Sikhism anywhere. [Note - If anyone wants to debate with me on this please do so on an appropriate thread].


    I personally like the Swaminarayan Hindu way of deciding if saying things are right. If such things are not mentioned in scripture then it is allowed only if society accepts it, the heart of the person accepts it, the law of the land accepts it. This way ALL can live in harmony.


    For the sake of being argumentative, people often break rules because they are there, and obedience is not always harmonious [E.G. Hitler WW2].
     
  7. ravisingh

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    Thecoopes,

    Thank-you for your post. I will try to reply to some aspects of your posts from my perspective. Please understand that I post them to understand your view better and are in no way a denigration/disrespect to your beliefs.

    Are you sure that God does not approve of two people who love one another being together? Do you think he would prefer that his children who were born homosexual were placed on this earth to suffer? I am always wary of those that claim that God wouldn't like x. What is the basis for such an assertion? Can we be certain that God values more what 2 people do in thier bedroom then say feeding the starving, ending all wars, etc?

    There are many aspects of religious texts/scriptures that are meant to be taken metaphorically and not literally. How do we know that the supposed sin of homosexuality should be understood in these terms? For example, I doubt that the following biblical passages (St. James version) relating to slavery were to be taken literally:
    [size=-1]1. How did Jesus say a slave should treat his master?[/size] [size=-1](A slave must completely obey and fear his master, even if his master is cruel and unjust) “Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward" (1 Peter 2:18). "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ" (Ephesians 6:5). [/size]

    [size=-1]2. What is God's policy on physical punishment of your slave? [/size]
    [size=-1]“A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer” (Proverbs 29:19). “And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye’s sake. And if he smite out his manservant’s tooth, or his maidservant’s tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth’s sake” (Exodus 21:26-27). [/size]

    [size=-1]3. Whom did God tell the Israelites they should turn into their slaves?[/size]
    [size=-1](The people of other tribes living around them) "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids” (Leviticus 25:44). [/size]


    [size=-1]4. What does God say is to happen to a male slave after six years of service?[/size]
    [size=-1] “If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever” (Exodus 21:2-6). [/size]


    [size=-1]5. What does God say should happen to a master who beats his slave to death?[/size]
    [size=-1](He should avoid all punishment if the slave survives for a couple days after the beating) “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money” (Exodus 21:20-21). [/size]


    [size=-1]6. Does God allow you to sell your daughter into slavery?[/size]
    [size=-1](Yes. And the situation is not unbearable for her since, if her master takes her as his wife and she does not please him, he must set her free) “And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation, he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife: her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish” (Exodus 21:7-10). [/size]


    [size=-1]7. What punishments does God mandate when an ox gores a free man and when an ox gores a slave?[/size]
    [size=-1]“If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. . . . If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned” (Exodus 21:28-32). [/size]


    [size=-1]8. What was the plight of those not born Israelites?[/size]
    [size=-1](They were to be taken by the Israelites as slaves, and their children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc. were destined to be slaves) “Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever" (Leviticus 25:44-46). [/size]


    [size=-1]9. What conduct by slaves does Jesus dislike?[/size]
    [size=-1](Insincerity and Rudeness) “Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God” (Colossians 3:22; see also Ephesians 6:5-6). “Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things” (Titus 2:9-10).
    [/size]


    [size=-1][size=-1]10. What effect does God say warfare has on slavery?[/size] [/size]
    [size=-1][size=-1](Whereas the men in any community invaded must be killed, the women and children are to be taken as slaves) “And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee” (Deuteronomy 20:13-14).
    [/size]
    [/size]


    [size=-1][size=-1]It is also important to note that the concept of minority rights was not commonplace in the time of the writing of the bible or most other religious works, hence it would, IMHO, be wrong to look for guidance on same-sex marraige in these writings --assuming that you agree with me that this an issue of minority rights.
    [/size]
    [/size]


    I see your point here. However, I think it is important to realize that although the essence of the human condition remains the same, new and novel situations arise that neccisitate a reintreprtation/reunderstanding of the essence of divine messages. Apparently according to some people, God thinks a quicky drunken marriage in Las Vegas between 2 people that do not love each other, have no intention of having children, etc. upholds the sanctity of marraige whereas same-sex marraige does not. I think by arguing this way, people are blindly following words and conventions (taking the easy way out) rather than trying to understand what God's guidance would be on such an issue --this requires going deeper than a literal reading of the texts.

    First of all I don't know any religion that says that everything is acceptable and down to the individual. Secondly, Sikhism does not prescribe what an appropriate marraige/relationship should be. All writings in the Guru Granth sahib that speak of marraige use the ideal relationship between men and women are used as metaphors for the devotion/duties one has to God --note that since these are used metaphorically they do not constitute a claim on what the nature of the relationship should be or whether it should only be between man and woman. Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji does contain text that indicates that married life is preferable to unmarried life (no doubt as a response to renunciates, sadhus, etc.) but again it does not specify that it should be between a man and women (it's funny how the jathedar has not issued a hukumnama against renunciates --a group that is clearly spoken out against in Sikhism). There are also clear and repeated assertions within Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
    that lust/passion (along with the other 4 "demons": anger, greed, attachment, pride) should be avoided. However, I don't think this can be taken as an argument against homosexuality since despite this Sikhs are expected to live a householders life.

    Thanks for reading my L-O-N-G post!

    Rab Rakha
     
  8. thecoopes

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    Hi everyone, Dear friends: My opinions are not sacrosanct and in the great scheme of things may well be wrong. My disagreement with the practice of homosexuality –Gayism, does not make me an anti gay person, each must answer for his own life and I have enough sin of my own to answer for without getting involved with any others. Also it is not to do with what I think that it is wicked or I think it is wrong or any of what I think, as I am just making an observation to the point that was raised in this posting, so I will continue with a short review on the points below.

    Are you sure that God does not approve of two people who love one another being together? Which God do you mean? Do you think he would prefer that his children who were born homosexual were placed on this earth to suffer? I am always wary of those that claim that God wouldn't like x. What is the basis for such an assertion? Can we be certain that God values more what 2 people do in thier bedroom then say feeding the starving, ending all wars, etc?

    Aman Singh asked this question on another thread: What would an ideal Religion according to you?



    “A religion that lets us do what we want.” Would I suspect be the preference of all of us if we were given a genuine option. But as far as I know we have not been given that option other than choosing through which religion we wish to worship our own particular God. So the highlighted part of the above question of how do I think God values your two examples needs to be answered through one of these beliefs, as it is not what I say but what I understand God says. Now as far as I understand Does God say that there are numerous serious problems facing mankind and as they are so important any of the other stuff going on that is not as serious, then you can all decide what you want to do?



    Let me give an illustration: Aside from mankind, all other living things are driven by instinct (This is just meant to be an illustration so don’t any of you smart arses come up with the theory that some microbes have actually been seen making holiday plans!)

    The dog I have now is no different than the dog I had 50 years ago, it does the same things, it can’t help itself it’s driven by instinct or as we call it in today’s jargon, It has been pre-programmed and hard wired in doggy mode. We though have been blessed or cursed by our creator with the responsibility to make our own minds up, this is why so much confusion exists, but to alleviate this he is purported to have given us his word in the form of holy writings. Now for the sake of me please accept that I refer to the Bible:
    There are many aspects of religious texts/scriptures that are meant to be taken metaphorically and not literally. How do we know that the supposed sin of homosexuality should be understood in these terms? For example, I doubt that the following biblical passages (St. James version) relating to slavery were to be taken literally:
    1. How did Jesus say a slave should treat his master?(A slave must completely obey and fear his master, even if his master is cruel and unjust) “Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward" (1 Peter 2:18). "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ" (Ephesians 6:5).
    You ask the question should we take it literally? Well many of the things written in the Bible are in respect of life at the time of writing, so thanks to William Wilberforce slavery was abolished by Britain and that description on a slave and a slaves responsibility has no relevance for us, also your understanding of slavery is as mine one of total repugnance, but under Hebrew law a slave was more like a bonded servant and had rights.




    So lets look at the reference to Homosexuality: 1 Corinthians 6:9,10,11.. Surely you know the unjust will never come into possession of the kingdom of God. Make no mistake, no fornicator or idolater, none who are guilty either of adultery or of homosexual perversion, no thieves or greedy persons or drunkards or slanderers or swindlers will possess the kingdom of God, such were some of you. ..... But you are clean through the blood of Jesus Christ. (Paraphrased) end quote..



    Now you must choose whether you feel that we should take it literally or not and if not then what about steeling and lying and the other things it mentions? It clearly says of the people it was written to that they used to practice those things but had stopped and become acceptable to God.






    2. What is God's policy on physical punishment of your slave?
    “A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer” (Proverbs 29:19). “And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye’s sake. And if he smite out his manservant’s tooth, or his maidservant’s tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth’s sake” (Exodus 21:26-27).

    3. Whom did God tell the Israelites they should turn into their slaves?

    (The people of other tribes living around them) "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids” (Leviticus 25:44).


    4. What does God say is to happen to a male slave after six years of service?

    “If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever” (Exodus 21:2-6).


    5. What does God say should happen to a master who beats his slave to death?

    (He should avoid all punishment if the slave survives for a couple days after the beating) “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money” (Exodus 21:20-21).


    6. Does God allow you to sell your daughter into slavery?
    (Yes. And the situation is not unbearable for her since, if her master takes her as his wife and she does not please him, he must set her free) “And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation, he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife: her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish” (Exodus 21:7-10).


    7. What punishments does God mandate when an ox gores a free man and when an ox gores a slave?
    “If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. . . . If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned” (Exodus 21:28-32).


    8. What was the plight of those not born Israelites?

    (They were to be taken by the Israelites as slaves, and their children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc. were destined to be slaves) “Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever" (Leviticus 25:44-46).


    9. What conduct by slaves does Jesus dislike?

    (Insincerity and Rudeness)
    “Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God” (Colossians 3:22; see also Ephesians 6:5-6). “Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things” (Titus 2:9-10).


    10. What effect does God say warfare has on slavery?
    (Whereas the men in any community invaded must be killed, the women and children are to be taken as slaves)
    “And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee” (Deuteronomy 20:13-14).


    It is also important to note that the concept of minority rights was not commonplace in the time of the writing of the bible or most other religious works, hence it would, IMHO, be wrong to look for guidance on same-sex marraige in these writings --assuming that you agree with me that this an issue of minority rights.



    The natural conclusion to the thrust of your argument through the above references would be to answer every single one in detail with all supporting understanding of historical life, or use them as a reason to refute the parts of the Bible we find conflicts with our present life preferences!



    Quote:

    If we continue to adjust Gods word to encompass any and everything we find does not suit us then surely what is the point of saying that God is our father and looking for guidance from him?

    I see your point here. However, I think it is important to realize that although the essence of the human condition remains the same, new and novel situations arise that neccisitate a reintreprtation/reunderstanding of the essence of divine messages. Apparently according to some people, God thinks a quicky drunken marriage in Las Vegas between 2 people that do not love each other, have no intention of having children, etc. upholds the sanctity of marraige whereas same-sex marraige does not. I think by arguing this way, people are blindly following words and conventions (taking the easy way out) rather than trying to understand what God's guidance would be on such an issue --this requires going deeper than a literal reading of the texts.

    Umm. Why do you say that? Hebrews 13:4 ..Let marriage be honourable among all and the marriage bed be without defilement.....

    Would you think having a cavalier attitude towards marriage would be fulfilling Gods requirement to make it honourable?

    Quote:

    I do not know what Sikh beliefs are so I cannot comment, however any religion that says everything is open and acceptable and down to the individual is surely just a cop out?

    First of all I don't know any religion that says that everything is acceptable and down to the individual. Secondly, Sikhism does not prescribe what an appropriate marraige/relationship should be. All writings in the Guru Granth sahib that speak of marraige use the ideal relationship between men and women are used as metaphors for the devotion/duties one has to God --note that since these are used metaphorically they do not constitute a claim on what the nature of the relationship should be or whether it should only be between man and woman. Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji does contain text that indicates that married life is preferable to unmarried life (no doubt as a response to renunciates, sadhus, etc.) but again it does not specify that it should be between a man and women (it's funny how the jathedar has not issued a hukumnama against renunciates --a group that is clearly spoken out against in Sikhism). There are also clear and repeated assertions within Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
    that lust/passion (along with the other 4 "demons": anger, greed, attachment, pride) should be avoided. However, I don't think this can be taken as an argument against homosexuality since despite this Sikhs are expected to live a householders life.

    Thanks for reading my L-O-N-G post!

    Rab Rakha


    Final Biblical thought: Colossians 2:8.. See to it then, that no one enslaves you by means of the worthless deceit of human wisdom, which comes from the teachings handed down by men,.... and not from Christ. (End quote)

    So we each have to decide for ourselves and answer for those decisions, therefore our feelings of the rights and wrongs of a given belief are our own feelings and our continued showing of love and respect for our fellow man should not depend on me having to accept something I view as wrong or for me to be expect that the other person must fit into my understanding of right and wrong.

    Each will be judged according to their deeds.

    Very best wishes to all my friends.

    John
     
  9. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
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    Another typical heterosexual hate-filled style response. What you have just said is basically the same thing as saying "black people can be black, but I disagree with their blackness. They should have their skin painted white in public."

    BTW - What actually mean by "the practice" of homosexuality? Such words make me laugh so much!

    Since you believe this disagreement with "the practice of homosexuality" does not make you homophobic, then what conditions does make someone homophobic?
     
  10. thecoopes

    thecoopes
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    I am disappointed with your response. I would have thought you would know me by now that I bear no ill feelings toward anyone but only to people’s actions.



    Surely what you expect from others you should be willing practice?



    If my lack of understanding is through my ignorance then is there no allowance in your eyes for that?

    If I am to be tolerant to you, does that mean that I cannot hold an opinion that is different than yours?

    Must I be subservient to your likes and dislikes?



    I hope you see that expecting tolerance of your beliefs means practicing tolerance for mine.



    Kind regards





    John C
     
  11. CaramelChocolate

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    If I had a belief that was disrciminative against the rights of minorities I would not expect all to respect it


    Most people are too stuck in their ways to accept the possibility that they maybe wrong. I hold you in high respect for that.


    Tolerance is not restricting the rights of others.
     
  12. ravisingh

    ravisingh
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    Thank-you for your response to my post thecoopes I am thoroughly enjoying this discourse.

    The same of course is true of myself.

    I'll keep this one short. I only added the quotes from the holy bible to illustrate two points. First, it is not at all simple to interpret text especially religious ones where some areas are taken to be metaphoric whereas others are taken to be literal (with no clear way of understanding which is which). My suggestion was that the basis for finding the holy bible to be against homosexuality is not all that clear cut. Of course the same can also be said of the holy text of Sikhism and other religions so again it is not a slight
    against Christianity.

    Second it was in response to your early post where you indicated that:
    Again, my idea was to illustrate that it is not at all clear what your God professes (assuming that as a christian you believe the holy bible to contain God's views).

    My point about the importance of one moral issue over another (ie. same sex marraige vs unjustified wars where innocent people are slaughtered) was meant to illustrate that even if same-sex marraige is wrong it surely does not compare to other far more grevious moral transgressions.

    In reference to Corn. where you are quite correct it appears to be clear cut. As you conceed in your post in reply to biblical quotes on slavery:
    could the same not apply in the case of homosexuality?

    In regards to your reply on my point about "drunken Las Vegas weddings" your quite correct to point out that true Christianity would not approve of such a marraige. I may be guilty here of making an assumption about you based upon what other christians have said about marraige and was meant to butress my position that most christians accept these marraiges as legitimate but would never support the rights of same-sex couples. I apologize for making this assumption about you. But I do have one question for you: do you believe that it is acceptable for people that can't (older of infertile people) or do not want to conceive children to marry? I ask this as the traditional notion of marraige that most Christian (or other religious groups) opponents use views marraige and sex as only legitimate when procreation is the intent. If anything other than procreation is an acceptable reason for marraige in your view than please explain why a same-sex couple marraige is unacceptable.

    Thank-you for sharing your views with me!

     
  13. thecoopes

    thecoopes
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    I find it quite a strange contradiction that one can have opposing views about the wrongs of smoking, drinking alcohol, adultery, and numerous other lifestyle preferences of our fellow man and yet if any dare to say that they don’t agree with same sex love then we are viewed as an anathema, and as narrow minded bigots!



    In a society made up of people of all sorts some have views diametrically opposed to mine, and so mine are diametrically opposed to them. I am not forcing them to accept my views so the rights and wrongs of their beliefs and their actions must therefore rest on their shoulders.



    What follows are answers to the question according to my personal views within the thread started by Aman Singh.



    The same of course is true of myself.

    I'll keep this one short. I only added the quotes from the holy bible to illustrate two points. First, it is not at all simple to interpret text especially religious ones where some areas are taken to be metaphoric whereas others are taken to be literal (with no clear way of understanding which is which). My suggestion was that the basis for finding the holy bible to be against homosexuality is not all that clear cut. Of course the same can also be said of the holy text of Sikhism and other religions so again it is not a slight
    against Christianity.




    Now take this however you please and interpret in anyway you like, but the Bible is very clear in its reference to men and women and marriage. Genesis 2:24. That is why a man will leave his father and mother and stick to his wife and they will become one flesh.

    The words of Moses there in Genesis are repeated by Paul in the letter to the congregation in Ephesus. Eph5:31. As the scripture says for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and unite with his wife and the two will become one flesh.

    Now nowhere in the bible does it say or imply that it is to be the same way with two of the same sex. Indeed when the requirement for being an elder in the church was stipulated then it was said and quote: 1Timothy 3:2...The Church leader must be without fault, he must have only one wife, be sober, self-controlled and orderly.....

    The Bible is full of references to homosexuality but never in an acceptable context.

    Second it was in response to your early post where you indicated that:


    Quote:


    The issue of same sex marriage surely should be down not to what we think is right or wrong but what the God who we profess to worship views as right or wrong?


    Again, my idea was to illustrate that it is not at all clear what your God professes (assuming that as a christian you believe the holy bible to contain God's views).
    There is no confusion in the Bible as to the conduct that God requires of man, but as the bible says man has twisted Gods words for their own gain. 1Tim 4:1..The spirit says expressly that in after times some will desert from the faith and give their minds over to subversive doctrines.... through the specious falsehoods of men etc





    My point about the importance of one moral issue over another (ie. same sex marraige vs unjustified wars where innocent people are slaughtered) was meant to illustrate that even if same-sex marraige is wrong it surely does not compare to other far more grevious moral transgressions.

    In reference to Corn. where you are quite correct it appears to be clear cut. As you conceed in your post in reply to biblical quotes on slavery:


    Quote:


    Well many of the things written in the Bible are in respect of life at the time of writing


    could the same not apply in the case of homosexuality?

    Well it could if you wanted it to? But then you need to ask about Gods condemnation of, adultery, lying, steeling, fornication, and murder.... How far do you want to go?



    In regards to your reply on my point about "drunken Las Vegas weddings" your quite correct to point out that true Christianity would not approve of such a marraige. I may be guilty here of making an assumption about you based upon what other christians have said about marraige and was meant to butress my position that most christians accept these marraiges as legitimate but would never support the rights of same-sex couples. I apologize for making this assumption about you. But I do have one question for you: do you believe that it is acceptable for people that can't (older of infertile people) or do not want to conceive children to marry? I ask this as the traditional notion of marraige that most Christian (or other religious groups) opponents use views marraige and sex as only legitimate when procreation is the intent. If anything other than procreation is an acceptable reason for marraige in your view than please explain why a same-sex couple marraige is unacceptable.


    I believe that the traditional marriage with all its values and ideals that I experienced when I was a child growing up is the best structure to bring a family into the world. But what if you don’t want children or can’t have children? Then is marriage out of the question and if not then does this automatically make it right that two people of the same sex who likewise will not conceive children can then experience the same relationship?

    The Bible is full of evidence that it is not necessary for a married couple to have children, Abraham and Sarah were childless until God made it possible for her to conceive.

    So for a Christian, the answer can only be between man and woman. If we want anything else then we are perfectly entitled to choose but as with adultery or steeling we need to ask is this acceptable to God?



    These are my beliefs based on what I understand, do not become a slave of my conscience but likewise do not expect me to be a slave of yours.



    Very best wishes :up:



    John



     
  14. ravisingh

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    Thecoopes,

    I am somewhat perplexed by your last post. I never called you a "narrow minded biggot". If you recall, in my post I stated (I feels funny quoting myself but ..)

    I truly meant this and I apologize if this was unclear. No offence or disrespect was intended. In a previous post in another thread I maintained that I have yet to hear a single reasonable argument against it --I still maintain this position. So my reason in invoking this discourse was to humbly attempt to understand your perspective. I am more than comfortable with agreeing to disagree but I feel that it is important understand the perspective of those that hold different views from my own --I find it is a wonderul way of improving myself. Thank-you for sharing!


    Kind regards.

    Ravi Singh
     
  15. CaramelChocolate

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    They are not harming anybody by getting married! Infact, them getting married will prompt people more into getting married since most people do not want to get married these days.
     
  16. muslim

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    Why did god create man and woman? why not just one sex? Why are man and woman made to complicate one another?Why cannot two of the same sex produce a child? Hey if we were all gay wouldnt we just die out?
     
  17. thecoopes

    thecoopes
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  18. thecoopes

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    Dear Muslim friend. By the way happy birthday for your nineteenth

    So if God made them man and woman who made the Hermaphrodite’s? You must look at the bigger picture, as there are deeper reasons behind many of what you would call a clear cut right and wrong!

    People can have a genetic reason for not feeling drawn to the opposite sex also our brains are extremely complex and the centres governing emotions and desires can be influenced and stimulated by subtle changes within the cellular structure of this delicate organ during its development.

    Also maybe it would be a good thing if we all died out and let the animals have the planet back, as they are governed by instinct and do not have the need to reason on the right and wrong of an issue.

    To them everything is as you see it clear-cut.



    Best wishes to you :ice:



    John
     

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