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Guruji to be abused AGAIN!

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Tejwant Singh, Aug 6, 2004.

  1. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    I recieved the following email. Would like to know others opinion on it.

    Guruji to be abused AGAIN!

    Action required to STOP Guruji being taken to Hotel

    The committee of the Gurdwara in Northampton, UK have agreed that Sri Guru Granth ji's saroop can be taken to the Moathouse Hotel for a wedding on Sunday 22 August.
    http://www.moathousehotels.com/html/frames...otel&HotelId=52

    The hotel has at least two active bars within the premises in which the hall is situated.

    Is this how low we have sunk?
    400 years since Guru Arjan Dev ji had the Aadh Granth Sahib compiled, we allow Guru ji's saroop to be taken to places where actions take place which are completely against the words of Guru ji?

    Guru Amar Daas ji has said "Drinking alcohol, his intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind... Do not drink the false alcohol at all, if it is in your power." (Limb 554 of SGGSJ).

    And Guru ji says "Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana [drugs and tobacco], fish [meat] and wine [alcohol] - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to HELL. ||233||" (Limb 1377 of SGGSJ).

    Why should we care? Because Guru Nanak Dev ji has said "The fire of evil-mindedness is burning up the world. THEY ALONE are SAVED, who contemplate the Word of the Guru's Sabad. ||2||" (Limb 225 of SGGSJ).

    And how are we treating Guru ji's Sabad?

    The President of Gurdwara Committee is Amarjit Atwal. He confirmed todaythat:

    1. The wedding would take place;

    2. They know that a Hukamnaama of Akaal Takhat Sahib has banned this; and

    3. That they are doing this due to force of circumstances i.e. the Gurdwara Sahib is too small.

    The Secretary is Jagtar Cheema and Santokh Uppal is the Treasurer.

    The Gurdwara's phone number is 01604-634641.

    The family were contacted over two months ago and alternatives suggested (at the time, invitations had not been sent out). The alternatives offered was a very large marquee (not perfect but far better than a hotel with bars) or nearby Gurdwara Sahibs which are far larger i.e. i.e. Bedford.

    We owe a duty to Guru ji to take a stand against this - otherwise where will it end? Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji being taken to massage parlours, pubs, lap dance bars?

    PHONE the Gurdwara and ask to speak the President or other committee members

    A delegation of concerned Sikh naujawaan and elders are going to meet the committee this weekend - keep up the pressure!


    For more information and updates on the situation: http://forums.waheguroo.com/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=6200&st=0
     
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  3. Arvind

    Arvind
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    At first glance, this seems to be so misappropriate.

    This took me back to read again one of the responses by Amarpal ji, in which he replied to member 'care4sikhi'.

    The things which are bothering me are the impression given by statements of Mr. Amarjit Atwal (to much extent arrogant one, those seem to be). So his stand doesnt align with my meagre thinking.

    I understand, we need to show unity by adhering to one panthic body, which is Akaal Takhat Sahib. There are some reasons for the rules, and we need to look into the spirit of those rules, and look for healthy and non-controversial alternatives.

    I happened to read other similar instances by Bhatra's ( I dont know what word 'Bhatra' stand for) at the forums you mentioned.

    Best Regards.
     
  4. Admin Singh

    Admin Singh
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    Logan Ram Khilona Jana...

    Its pity that these people embrace sikhism and are still filled with so much false ego. If I were there I would try to stop such a thing from happening. The present and furture of sikhi is in the hands of Youth. Only youth can mould the present in such a way that future i.e. our future generations can look up Sikhi and its glory rather thatn arrogance of ignorance people like Atwal.

    There should be UK or worlwide agitation from Sikhs.

    Chardi Kalaa
     
  5. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    This is a very interesting topic as it concerns all of us because marriage is an essential part of GURMAT LIFE.

    Before posting it here, I had already given the following response, in return the responses I got are also are posted at the bottom. If theres any objection in posting responses from other forums, pls let me know. Please feel free to add your thoughts on it.

    My response:-

    <<Some questions so that I can understand what the writer is talking about:-

    1. How's GURBANI abused by taking it anywhere and indulge in GURBANI VICHAAR?

    2. Guru Nanak Dev ji went almost all around the world. If he thought the way the writer does then he would find no need to travel.

    3. How far is the Gurdwara from the nearest pub?

    4. What kind of distance does the writer think is appropirate between the bar and SGGS?

    Now my 2 cent worth.

    SGGS is not an Idol to be worshipped and bowed upon. It has to be opened, read and understood and to understand there's no place where GURBANI VICHAR can not take place.

    People who think in such a parochial way are nothing but idol worshippers.

    Peace & Love

    Tejwant Singh>>

    Responses from SADH SANGAT.


    Dear Sangat Jio, and especially Dear Veerji Tejwant Singh

    Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

    In article <bf.431ad0d7.2e43d8a3@aol.com>, wrote:

    > Some questions so that I can understand what the writer is talking about:-
    >
    > 1. How's GURBANI abused by taking it anywhere and indulge in GURBANI VICHAAR?

    "Gurbani" is nothing physical. "Gurbani" can't be abused. BUT Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is the "physical"
    form in which Gurbani is "manifest" so a "physical" form CAN be abused (burned, mishandled, improperly
    used and whatever).

    It is due to the stupidity of some people who lack the understanding how to NOT insult other's
    religious feelings that the Hukamnamah from Sri Akal Takhat was necessary.

    I haven't every read or heard about a Christian marriage taking place in a hotel. If they decide to
    have their marriage made 'valid' by the rites of their church, they are serious about the environment
    too. Why can't we copy that?

    I haven't ever heard either, that a muslim Nikah is performed in a hotel...

    What about the Hindus? Having some lovely fire in a hotel???

    > 2. Guru Nanak Dev ji went almost all around the world. If he thought the way
    > the writer does then he would find no need to travel.

    Please explain.

    > 3. How far is the Gurdwara from the nearest pub?

    How far is the nearest pub from your home? Sometimes you can't have your way if a pub or shop is
    opened. Fortunately most Gurdwaras are quite far from pubs.

    > 4. What kind of distance does the writer think is appropirate between the bar
    > and SGGS?

    There is absolutely no way to have a bar in the same building as Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Period. And
    vice-versa. Period.

    > Now my 2 cent worth.

    > SGGS is not an Idol to be worshipped and bowed upon. It has to be opened,
    > read and understood and to understand there's no place where GURBANI VICHAR can
    > not take place.

    Sure. No problem with thinking about Gurbani while sitting on the loo, but you won't seriously suggest
    taking even a Gutka with you????

    > People who think in such a parochial way are nothing but idol worshippers.

    Don't confuse 'Idol' and 'Symbol'.

    I'm usually keeping a 3 foot long Kirpan on me. But I do NEVER take it with me going to the bathroom.
    (That was taught to me by the example of an old Nihang Singh Babaji, looong before I was blessed by
    Guruji with the ability of keeping that Kirpan). I'll always ask one of the Bhenjis accompanying me to
    wash her hands and then keep the Kirpan and my other Shastars for me, if I'm in any public place.

    So my Kirpan etc is a "Symbol" for me (now don't tell me to read 'they are no symbols').

    > Peace & Love

    What about "Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh"? You write about 'rahit' and don't even keep
    the little things. <G>

    Just my 2 cents...

    May Waheguru bless you!

    Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

    Ranbir Kaur
    (Kathawachak)



    WJKKWJKF

    The issue and question, and answers are simple.
    Let me put it this way.Every society is governed by widely widely accepted
    norms.Those norms are almost the LAW of that given society.

    As such we regard the GURU Granth Sahib as the Shabad GURU-the living shabad
    Guru .The GURU is our pita,mata parmesar etc...

    Now,in real life many of us have our parents either living near by or with
    us,those who are lucky enough to have such arrangement and blessings.

    WILL YOU TAKE YOUR FATHER/mother to a house of ill repute ?Or a bar ?or a
    HOTEL bar where half naked women are viling with half drunks, and blowing
    smoke almost into your face and that of your parents ? ?

    I believe for any one with some civil decency,the answer is NO.

    Then why we are prepared to accept that the Granth sahib can be taken to
    such places?

    Anyone is free to conduct their weddings anywhere.But no body should take
    the freedom to take the GURU sahib into places which are regarded not so
    decent.Is that very hard to understand ?

    The offending famlies should be advised that such is not decent or
    acceptable.This is the role of the Gurduara offcials and the granthi sahib to offer
    the advise.

    I am sure no Guru fearing Sikh family would dare go against this
    advice.Where a family waves their NOTES and demand,then the sanagat should come to
    gether ...and advice ...again I am sure the would take that into account.

    Strange it is Ok to upset and tolerate the be adhbhi of the Guru Granth
    sahib,but not upset the family by telling some home truths about our maryada.

    Surely one would not conduct a wedding in a toilet would they ?Then why is
    the liberty being taken to take the Guru sahib where the required respect/ and
    standard of honour cannot be given or offered?

    This what is wrong.No body questions the validity of weddings being held
    anywhere one likes.However when the issue concerns the collective community,
    especially so when it is felt that such places are not places one would normally
    associate with cleaniness,Sikhs need to rise and question.

    Chaan SINGH Pardesi

    I personally prefer the Guru Granth Sahibji stays in the Gurdwara for
    the marriage ceremony but for different reasons.

    But I just want to put something in perspective:

    Has anyone seen this hotel?

    http://www.moathouse.com/html/frameset_top.cfm?section=leisure&content=tours

    click under Northampton


    The reason I checked out the picture is that someone mentioned "half
    naked women."

    >>WILL YOU TAKE YOUR FATHER/mother to a house of ill repute ?Or a bar
    ?or a HOTEL bar where half naked women are viling with half drunks,
    and blowing smoke almost into your face and that of your parents?<<

    I did not see any such women. Now aside from my disappointment, I
    think this is the kind of hotel I will take my father and mother to.
    By the way, the Guru Granth Sahib is not the living Guru or pita/mata.
    That is the SatGuru.

    Also to make another point, since when did discussing to allow Guru
    Granth Sahib to this hotel, or to this caliber anyhow, translate to
    eventually allowing it to a house of ill repute, with naked women, and
    the bathroom?

    >>Surely one would not conduct a wedding in a toilet would they?<<

    Thank you for making that connection. It's wonderful to discuss with
    people who will make such tangential associations and with such
    reason! No, it really is.

    Now I did say I prefer the Guru Granth Sahibji stay at the Gurdwara
    because it's more of an egalitarian approach. For me, the Sikh
    marriage ceremony is simple, without the lavish overtones and
    surroundings. Besides, that's what the receptions are for.

    But I don't understand the particulars. It's claimed that the local
    Gurdwara is TOO SMALL. I don't understand how small. I don't
    understand how big the wedding party is and why can't they just
    accommodate them at the reception, or if there's one.

    There are so many details I do not know, so I will reluctantly give
    them the benefit of the doubt. This is an Exception we are talking
    about and not the norm.

    But as for those who think the alcohol nearby will drown the Bani
    rather than the Bani will drown out all the intoxicants, why not make
    the bars inactive? Buy out the bars for half the day and close them.
    For those who are still concerned about the proximity, transplant the
    liquor some odd feet away.

    I'm still churning this matter inside my head. Any reasonable
    discussions are welcome to shed light on this topic.

    Thank you.

    Narinder Singh
    NY


    INPUT from ALL is needed.

    Thanx

    Peace & Love

    Tejwant.



     
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  6. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Somemore responses:


    At the same time, one needs to have respect for guru sahib!

    Wherever you take guru sahib that place has become a gurudwara or dharamsal. At the hotel, when it becomes a gurudwara, there will be bars open, there will be people fornicating in rooms, and smoking. and there most likely will not be an open langar.

    Are such things allowed in a gurudwara? If not, will sevadars be going around teh hotel ensuring these things do not happen and that everyones heads are not covered etc? I highly doubt it.

    Such things are disrespect to guru sahib!


    This roadrunner has no sense of what is s sadh sangat.He thinks that
    he can have Gurbani vichar anywhere and everywhere.Then he goes on
    to talk about Guru nanak Dev ji's wanderings.Sir we are sikhs only
    and we have to follow what guru ji taught us.

    The biggest ritual is to take sggs in hotels where merry making is
    going on.People are drunk and can they follow Gurbani in that
    atmosphere.

    --- In AmericanSikhs@yahoogroups.com, "Mkhalsa"
    <manjotsinghkhalsa@s...> wrote:
    > At the same time, one needs to have respect for guru sahib!
    >
    > Wherever you take guru sahib that place has become a gurudwara or
    dharamsal. At the hotel, when it becomes a gurudwara, there will be
    bars open, there will be people fornicating in rooms, and smoking.
    and there most likely will not be an open langar.
    >
    > Are such things allowed in a gurudwara? If not, will sevadars be
    going around teh hotel ensuring these things do not happen and that
    everyones heads are not covered etc? I highly doubt it.
    >
    > Such things are disrespect to guru sahib!


    PS:-

    My SN is Roadrunnr in these forums
     
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  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    My response:-

    Dear Ranbir Bhenji, ChaanPardesi ji,Manjot Singh ji,NSingh ji, SikhFlag ji, Tasveer ji and all SADH SANGAT.

    Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa. Vehaguru ji ki fateh.

    This is a very interesting debate as MARRIAGE is essential part of GURMAT LIFE based on MIRI PIRI. Lets all discuss this without being emotional so that we can all learn from it and hence become better GURU KEI SIKHS.




    In a message dated 8/6/04 7:54:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ranbir@gurmatps.org writes:
    <<"Gurbani" is nothing physical. "Gurbani" can't be abused. BUT Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is the "physical"

    form in which Gurbani is "manifest" so a "physical" form CAN be abused (burned, mishandled, improperly
    used and whatever).>>

    Yes Bhenji, I agree that Physical form of anything can be abused. However, the GURMAT message can never be abused. The proof is in the sacrifices of our GURUS who gave their physical forms to defend GURMAT IDEALS. No one and I repeat NO ONE can take GURMAT VALUES instilled in us by GURBANI away. Because Sikhi is NOT personality based as most of the other religions are but IDEA BASED.


    <<It is due to the stupidity of some people who lack the understanding how to NOT insult other's religious feelings that the Hukamnamah from Sri Akal Takhat was necessary>>


    1. Does Akal Takhat (jathedaar or his cronies) police the stalls outside the gurdwara sahib where all the Gutkas and Gurbani cd's are sold to check if they are kept in a respectful way.

    2. Does Akal Takhat go to the peoples' houses and check how respectfully the Cd's and other Gurbani material are kept at home and in people's cars?

    3. Does Akal Takhat check the factories where Cd's are being made if everyone is barefoot, head covered and not humming some indian song while packing the Gurbani cd's?

    3. Is it ok to listen to Gurbani Keertan in a car while travelling when the child's diaper is being changed and Big Mac is being devoured?

    4. Is it is ok to chant Gurbani while sitting on the loo, or take a punjabi newpaper which has gurbani verses in it but not Gutka?

    5.IS IT OK TO GOLD LEAF HARMANDIR SAHIB AND RESTORE THE BEAUTIFULL WALLS WITH MINAKAARI EVERYTIME WHEN NEEDED BUT LET THE GURDWARA SAHIB AT TARAN TAARAN CRUMBLE AND LET THE WALLS WHERE BEAUTIFUL WORK OF ART ONCE STOOD ROT??

    WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE IN THESE TWO AS WE HAVE GURU GRANTH SAHIB'S PARKASH IN BOTH?

    Those of you who have not visited TaranTaaran Sahib lately, I would urge you to go there on your next trip and check it out for yourself.

    All the above have to do with physical aspects which are insignificant and hold no GURMAT VALUE because GURBANI PATH is SPIRITUAL.

    One can go on and on and become the devil's advocate til the end of time but will not ever be able to change GURMAT IDEALS which are the cornerstone of our GURMAT LIFE.

    <<I haven't every read or heard about a Christian marriage taking place in a hotel. If they decide to have their marriage made 'valid' by the rites of their church, they are serious about the environment too. Why can't we copy that?>>

    Bhenji, you are mistaken. christian marriages are held while parachuting, in shark tanks, on the beach, in the mountains and anywhere else one can think of.

    <<I haven't ever heard either, that a muslim Nikah is performed in a hotel...>>

    I have not either.

    <<What about the Hindus? Having some lovely fire in a hotel???>>

    It does not happen due to the fire hazard not because of any religious motive.

    Was Guru Nanak Dev ji disrespecful to the Hindu religion when he refused to wear Janeiu as a SYMBOL? or when he refused to sing AARTI in a hindu ritualistic manner?

    Lets not make SIKHI SYMBOLS as mere symbolic things but the marks of sikh pride where spirituality matters the utmost.


    Peace & Love

    Tejwant

    PS:- Input from all is urged.
     
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  8. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    Fascinating debates...

    I think, I tend to totally agree with you Tejwant Ji, the problem with your point of view is that people are too emotional towards their guru and tend to attach physical attributes to the Guru which is not right, i think. Your stance is actaully too idealistic.

    Alas! people or sikhs are not that much advanced in their thinking today... I would to say that you are talking or thinking some 100 years ahead of times. People will eventually agree with you once they would start to opening their mind sets. Please keep up the spirit alive in your to share your thoughts with sangat and dont ever get discouraged with wholesome oppsition to your views. They are much treasured ones.

    I am watching out for further debates in this regard. Thanks for sharing these informative debates here too. Please do post further developments.

    Best Regards
     
  9. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Sikh Philosophy ji,

    Thanks for your kind words

    I do not think for a second that people who do not see the things the way I do are wrong, mistaken or misguided. In fact I admire their fervor in defending their relationship with IK ONG KAAR. I also enjoy the emotional bond we all have with THE SOURCE. I do not consider this as a disruptive argument either but a lively constructive interaction.

    It is also very fascinating to notice how we percieve IK ONG KAAR in different ways from each other through Dasam Duar which belongs to the individual alone. As mentioned before, I consider GURMAT a prism with infinite angles but due the limited vision of us fallible humans we only see a fraction of the angle at a time.

    THE PATH OF THE SEEKER can not be charted out by a Mapquest printout but only by GURMAT MARG which is:


    'Khaneio tikhi, valo niki, etei marg janah'.
    In other words Sikhi is not just a high wire act but a way of life.

    Peace & Love

    Tejwant
     
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