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Guru Nanak Never Questioned the Creator

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by pk70, Jul 6, 2008.

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  1. pk70

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    Guru Nanak Never Questioned the Creator


    Most of the scholars that I am aware of, interpreted Guru Nanak’s shabad which starts with “khurasaan khasmana kia.” quite contrary to Guru ji’s love for the Creator. It was never acceptable to me that Guru ji would use such language for the Creator. We must reread and understand the whole shabad along with other Guru- Vaakas which support Guru ji’s unconditional love for the Creator. First lets have a look on those Guru Vaakas which prove that in Guru ji’s mind, The Creator is beyond error, before we decipher what Guru ji is actually stating in that shabad (khurasaan Khasmana Kia (SGGS 360).
    ਪੰਨਾ 61, ਸਤਰ 7
    ਭੁਲਣਅੰਦਰਿਸਭੁਕੋਅਭੁਲਗੁਰੂਕਰਤਾਰੁ
    भुलणअंदरिसभुकोअभुलुगुरूकरतारु
    Bula anar sab ko abul gurū karār.
    Everyone makes mistakes; only the Guru and the Creator are infallible.
    1 Sri Rag Mehla 1 SGGS 61)
    Whatever happens, it is right though it can look bad to others. Question is raised or addressed to those who make mistakes. He doesn’t make mistake at all then why to question HIM
    Again
    ਕਰਤਾਆਪਿਅਭੁਲਹੈਭੁਲੈਕਿਸੈਦਾਭੁਲਾਇਆ
    करताआपिअभुलुहैभुलैकिसैदाभुलाइआ
    Karā āp abul hai na bulai kisai ā bulā*i*ā.
    The Creator Himself is infallible and above be fooling.
    Also Mehla 4
    ] qU krih su scy hoiesI qw kwiequ kVIAY ]3] {pMnw 301}
    When, what Thou doest, O True Lord, that alone happens, then why should we grieve?
    Why God loving will question HIM?
    pauVI ] qU krqw Awip ABulu hY Bulx ivic nwhI ] qU krih su scy Blw hY gur sbid buJwhI ]301
    The creator is infallible, He is beyond it. Guru Shabad makes us realize that whatever He does is right.(He just doesn’t do any thing wrong, period, this is the way His Bhagatas look at Him because they have experienced Him and understood His Will.
    ਤੂਕਰਤਾਆਪਿਅਭੁਲਹੈਭੁਲਣਵਿਚਿਨਾਹੀ
    तूकरताआपिअभुलुहैभुलणविचिनाही
    Ŧū karā āp abul hai bula vic nāhī.
    O Creator Lord, You yourself are infallible; you never make mistakes.
    M 4 553
    As He is beyond error, why Guru ji will question Him?
    More
    ਆਪਿਅਭੁਲਭੁਲੈਕਬਹੀਸਭੁਸਚੁਤਪਾਵਸੁਸਚੁਥਿਆ
    आपिअभुलुभुलैकबहीसभुसचुतपावसुसचुथिआ
    Āp abul na bulai kab hī sab sacapāvas sac thi*ā.
    He never errs; the justice of the True Lord is totally True(553)
    More:
    ਆਪਿਅਭੁਲਭੁਲਈਪਿਆਰਾਅਵਰੁਦੂਜਾਜਾਪੈ੨॥
    आपिअभुलुभुलईपिआराअवरुदूजाजापै॥२॥
    Āp abul na bul*ī pi*ārā avar na ūjā jāpai. ||2||
    The Beloved Himself is infallible; He makes no mistakes. There is no other like Him to be seen. ||2|| 605)
    There is more on His infinity and His being infallible
    ਕੀਮਤਿਸੋਪਾਵੈਆਪਿਜਾਣਾਵੈਆਪਿਅਭੁਲਭੁਲਏ॥( 767)
    कीमतिसोपावैआपिजाणावैआपिअभुलुभुलए
    Kīma so pāvai āp jāāvai āp abul na bul*ė.
    He alone can estimate the Lord's value, whom the Lord Himself causes to know. He is not mistaken; He does not make mistakes1022
    Strongly it is said again
    ਆਪਿਅਭੁਲਕਬਹੂਭੁਲਾ
    आपिअभुलुकबहूभुला
    Āp abul na kabhū bulā.
    He Himself is infallible; He never makes mistakes.M-3

    Now in Rag Basant SGGS 1174 His infallibility is crystal clear
    ] Awip ABulu scw scu soie ] hoir siB BUlih dUjY piq Koie ]
    Beyond error is the Eternal Lord, all others are to error and due to lose respect.
    All these above quoted Vaakas have stated about His being infallible, then why to question Him? In the same token, why would Guru ji question the infallible? If powerful lion attacks crowd of sheep, even then, why infallible be questioned, it is just matter of understanding His Hukm, who understands, he/she never questions Him. What I see, scholars just fail to honor that status Guru ji repeatedly gives to Him. just merely looking at the vaak” Tain ki dard na aayeea( Didn’t you feel pity?), one can not conclude Guru ji has questioned Him because Guru ji hasn’t ever questioned HIM at all.
    So then why does Guru ji write it? Let’s find the answer in the Shabad itself.
    Here is the Shabad and, I shall try to explain what vaak is addressed to whom and what message Guru ji is trying to covey.
    Awsw mhlw 1 ] Kurwswn Ksmwnw kIAw ihMdusqwnu frwieAw ] AwpY dosu n dyeI krqw jmu kir muglu cVwieAw ] eyqI mwr peI krlwxy qYN kI drdu n AwieAw ]1] krqw qUM sBnw kw soeI ] jy skqw skqy kau mwry qw min rosu n hoeI ]1] rhwau ] skqw sIhu mwry pY vgY KsmY sw pursweI ] rqn ivgwiV ivgoey kuqéØI muieAw swr n kweI ] ............................]3]5]39] {pMnw 360}
    ( In essence: After leaving Khurasan to someone’s care, Baabar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself takes no blame as He has sent the Mugal, the messenger of death. . People were asking God’, after that so much slaughtering and cries, haven’t you felt pity? || 1 || If some powerful one strikes out against another powerful equal, then no one feels any grief because both are equals. || 1 || Pause || But if a powerful tiger attacks a flock of sheep and kills them, its the master who is questioned then . Jewel like humans are murdered by killer-dogs, no body cares about the dead”
    Above, from the beginning of the Shabad, to "moeeaa saar na kaee( no body cares about the dead) Guru ji describes the views of the people who witnessed the attack and Guru ji heard them talking about it. They say,” God doesn’t take blame, He sends some one to do heinous crimes. It is acceptable if both are equals and fight and die but when so strong one attacks so week, He should be questioned because He is the Master, so we are asking doesn’t he feel pity or compassion, precious lives are taken”.
    After describing opinions of people around him,Guru ji responds, he doesn’t question his Lord but praise Him and His Ordinance, here Guru ji inserts his views on it “ Awpy joiV ivCoVy Awpy vyKu qyrI vifAweI ]2] jy ko nwau Drwey vfw swd kry min Bwxy ] KsmY ndrI kIVw AwvY jyqy cugY dwxy ] mir mir jIvY qw ikCu pwey nwnk nwmu vKwx”y ]3]5]39] {pMnw 360}
    .” You yourself unite, and You Yourself separate; I gaze upon Your Glorious Greatness. || 2 || One may have a great name, and revel in the pleasures of the mind, but in the Eyes of the Lord the Master, he/she is just a worm eating all corn it can eat.( What happens to them some time who indulge deeply in luxuries and forgot Him and responsibility, is clear in the attack, so why to blame Him?) Nanak says only that one lives without any vice (free from ego, lust, greed etc)) by meditating on His Naam and singing His praises, obtains His blessings (others don’t) || 3 || 5 || 39 ||”
    Message is clear; people blame GOD but rarely take responsibility. Guru ji stresses that People blame HIM for their own short comings which make such things inevitable. Why the rulers got lost in luxuries and vices? They should have been ready to do protection too. Whatever Babar had, they had it, did they use it? No. Why? Answer is because they were asleep in luxurious life styles. Why to blame The Creator then?. He unites and He separates, it is all His glory. Before Him, regardless how one gets big with name or wealth (whatever), is merely like worm in His eyes( in public's eyes they may be called jewels). Only those go with respect from here who stay tuned to Him.
    Obviously Guru ji is looking all this by understanding HIS Ordinance, others don’t. Scholars just missed what Guru ji intended to say in this Shabad; “The creator is infallible always, when luxurious life is preferred over Dharma, tragedies are inevitable.

    G Singh
     
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    PK

    Like your new avatar. Reminds me of "I am the fish and You are the Ocean."
     
  4. Parma

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    Big statement are sure you have it correct: Guru and god are infalliable. Only god can be infalliable. I would suggest that in the terms above, Guru is meant as Waheguru = The Creator. If guru is infalliable then there would be no reason for any guru or for any religious leader wether that be jesus, buddha, mohammed, nanak or anyone else to become believers in god for them themselves are being portraid as the ultimate themselves. They are ultimately infalliable. Cannot do wrong in anyones eyes. Even guru nanak at the time was thought to be wrong by people who did not understand his philosophy, such as his parents. Yet only god can be infalliable in all situations in all thoughts in all understandings. Yes on a spritual level the sucha sauda of guru nanak was right. Yet in the terms of Maya or for his family his desion was thought of as wrong.
    dicsion for his family was wrong. But god is never put

    Nothing more is needed. They are infalliable. Then why do they pick the route of reform in the world. Only god is perfect. Do not disrespect god and make many where there is only one imperfect being only one god no reform no change have you ever heard gods followers asking to change god. It is just a being to get close to this energy the creator if you want to feel the warmth then you have to change. Rel
     
  5. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
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    I Have Not Finished The Above Post Only Each Time I Try To Edit It To Explain My Point The Writing Goes Black Is I Can Not Edit The Post Like When You Press Shift And Drang The Mouse Action> Thanks
     
  6. pk70

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  7. pk70

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    aad0002 ji

    What a co incident ! when I chose new Avtar, same " me mashli kaise ant lahan" came into my mind. I am a fish and He is the Ocean , is my story.
     
  8. spnadmin

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    Parma ji,

    I am not sure what the problem is -- but if you send me a pm maybe I can help you edit and say what you want to say. That might do the trick.

    But on the point of this discussion: i think Parma ji you are asking is whether both God and Guruji can be infallible. And you are suggesting that this is not possible. Correct me if I am getting your main idea wrong. Your logic is actually straight on when you say ... Only god can be infalliable. I would suggest that in the terms above, Guru is meant as Waheguru = The Creator. If guru is infalliable then there would be no reason for any guru or for any religious leader wether that be jesus, buddha, mohammed, nanak or anyone else to become believers in god for them themselves are being portraid as the ultimate themselves. But there is no contradiction -- if you look at this from a slightly different angle.

    My own reaction is this. Guruji, and the 10 Gurus, speak God's message. Shabads are the words of God. God is infallible. God's Shabad is infallible. Thus what Guruji says, speaking in the voice of God, is infallible. So there would be no question that the hukam, the ordiinance of the Satguru who is Waheguru, commanded our Gurus and eventually commanded the voice of Guruji. Because of that, Guruji is infallible, Guru Nanak is infallible, all of the 10 Nanaks are infallible-- because they are speaking the message of Waheguru according to his hukam. The contradiction occurs only when thinking of Guruji or any of the Gurus as voicing individual opinions. There would be fallibility there. But in speaking by His hukam and carrying his jyote, that is where the infallibility comes in. There really is no contradiction. Please let me know if I have misunderstood you.
     
  9. pk70

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    aad0002 ji

    Thanks for understanding infallibility of Guru ji in context of infallibility of WAHEGURU. Guru ji has recorded that in SGGS ji too.
    It becomes more clear why Gurbani is honored as" Bani Nirankar Hai" or " Pothi Parmeshar ka thaan" I applaud that.
     
  10. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

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    How do we define God?

    People often interpret a dualistic monotheism or Dvaita to Gurbani. But Gurbani more closely philosophically resembles Gaudiya Vaishnava schools. Vaishnava is primarily a Dvaitic teaching, focusing on the One Supreme Personality of the Godhead as Bhagavan Krishna and excluding worship of demi-gods. But Vaishnava Vedanta incorporated an Advaitic element in the Achintya Bheda Abheda of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu which is a kind of synthesis of Dvaita-Advaita characteristic of the Vaishnav tradition. Gurbani includes both Dvaitic and Advaitic definitions of God, explaining characteristics within duality and non-duality.


    ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ॥੬॥
    naanak breham giaanee aap paramaesur ||6||
    O Nanak, the God-conscious being is Himself the Supreme Lord God. ||6||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 273


    On simple glance, there are no such concepts within the entire Abrahamic framework as Guru-disciple, Shabda-Jyot, mukti-merging, Brahm-gyani, jivan-mukta, reincarnation at all. These are entirely Indic concepts set within an ancient Indic revelation of Sruti known as the Vedas. And to wrench Sikh philosophy away from it's ancient Indic sources Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas, Simritis will not give a credible interpretation. Some scholars try to say the Guru rejected the Vedas and Upanishads. This is not correct. Guru shows that the Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas are not enough to be a boat of mukti in the Kaliyug because the era is corrupted, because creation has a pattern of degeneracy, towards decay. In this Kaliyug, the previous forms of spirituality and approaching the Divine Principle are not enough, they are corruptible.

    The obverse of such an argument would be that Guru "accepted" the dualistic monotheism of the Katebas which is essentially a pure form of Dvaita. And this is not correct. Guruji hardly mentions the teachings of Kateb, yet strewn throughout the Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are constant references to Vedic and Upanishadic concepts and definitions, points of debates most notably between Dvaitic and Advaitic schools of philosophy and clarification of misunderstandings about the nirgun and sargun nature of the One Uncreated Parabrahm. Even the very essence of Sufi mysticism is Advaita, which means "not two" in reference to the Vedantic philosophy of a framework underlying all multiplicity in creation as deriving from a Primordial Oneness. In Sufi mysticism it refers to the atman in relation to the Paramatman, as the "shell" (atman) and the "kernel" (Paramatman). The degree of reality defined by spiritual proximity to the Real Self, the true nature, the cosmic Reality which is the Uncreated nirgun hidden One. So the body nature, and the karmic defilements and obscurations, the personality, the emotional attachments, the panj dhoots, the ego-centric husk is essentially part of the Maya illusion. It is dying and repeating a cycle of bondage. It exists in a condition of "stuckness" and ever degenerating darkness and desperation. It is a "creature" a "slave." Every thought it conceives is another bondage. Because every thought and word it speaks is another step outward away from the inner circle, the inner Fire, the inner Reality.


    ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਏਕ ॥
    nirankaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek ||
    He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes.

    ਏਕਹਿ ਏਕ ਬਖਾਨਨੋ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥
    eaekehi eaek bakhaanano naanak eaek anaek ||1||
    Describe the One Lord as One, and Only One; O Nanak, He is the One, and the many. ||1||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 250


    All thoughts and words and descriptors and imaginings and reactivity are reflections of bondage. We tend to translate the concept and identity of God in egoistic ways which are self-promoting. Spiritual practice is translated as this superficial show, of being seen by others speaking holy words, doing holy deeds. And the very egoistic defilement profanes all these right actions and perpetuates the bondage. So we need another way out. And every religious tradition, including Sikhism makes the all important distinction between the superficial and the kernel-core. The outer, sense oriented, ego identified superficiality is completely corrupted and corruptible. Sadhana, which is the disciplined path to enlightenment is an interior process. The goal is to interiorize the spiritual energy, to draw it back to the center by closing the nine gates of sense perception. This helps purify our sanchita karma, where our past actions are imbedded in the framework of our minds. Dualism postulates that because of the nature of the created material universe in which we experience reality, we perceive things as separate when they are not at a higher level of dimensional existence. Just as ice, steam and water appear to be different forms, when in actuality they are the same thing at different temperatures. Dualism asserts the reality of the differences. Non-duality accepts they are one and the same. Duality is a flaw of human perception, filtered through the way we experience and process and thus define. Dualistic monotheism is a concept that sees an Earth filled with individual identities. I am separate from you. Compare for yourselves which philosophy is closer to what Gurbani explains, Advaita or dualistic monotheism of the Kateb.


    Since the Abrahamic theologies must keep the human soul forever separate from the God, they struggle with conceptions of soul creation being separate from bodily creation, since they believe in an afterlife following demise of the body, and thus a soul-nature which exists outside of Time, and in eternity. None of these bizarre conceptual difficulties are found in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji because the soul is accepted to be the atma. But these bizarre permutations of belief exist so that hasidic Judaism teaches there are different kinds of souls, and that a Yiddiche Neshama (Jewish Soul) is qualitatively different and closer to God then a Gentile soul. Some Dvaitic schools argue there is a kind of Brahmin soul, a Kshatri soul, male souls, female souls, etc. So where do the differences and multiplicities end? Certainly not with death of the body. So how can true merging occur, if the soul, jiva, atma core essential being of the creation is forever caught in linear time, and conceptually in linear space and remaining forever distant, forever separate? That would be a condition of perpetual bondage.

    What is a soul?
    We can clearly see that Guruji is using a classic Advaitic definition in Gurbani, even the words He choses are the same: Parabrahm, Atma, Jeea, as well as the Upanishadic definitions of all-pervading non-dual Oneness. So these would be the concepts most inclined to the truest interpretation of Gurbani, and not implied dualistic monotheism of the Kateb. Guruji talks about the separation, but also of the Oneness which is all-Pervading and our ultimate Source of True Merging. Dualistic monotheism cannot tolerate a concept of merging any more than it can tolerate a concept of avtaara. Liberation, mukti in Advaita is in gaining the perception, the insightful wisdom that the atma self is a construct of forces which impel bondage to the sensual world. The Real Self is the same as the Nirgun Supreme Uncreated, which contains universes within itself, because ultimately, in truest Reality, there is only the Absolute without qualities who remains uncorrupted by the imperfections of the perceivable universe. Just as the man who went to a Zen teacher and told him, "I have a problem with anger." And the teacher said, "Please show me your anger." And the man replied, "Well I'm not angry right now." The Zen teacher told him, "Then anger must not be a constant part of your personality if it's something that comes and goes. Anger is like clouds that drift along the sky, but are not the sky itself. So anger is not a real part of who you are. So learn to let it go and stop attracting it by identification." The whole point of Naam jappa is to identify, to attune, to vibrate in sync, in harmony with the energy Reality of the Lord Himself. So that we are freed from the illusions of the senses and the kalpas and the defining points we call "personality." It's a way of washing the inner mirror so we can stop seeing only the shadow self which blocks the Light.

    So to reconcile the seeming contradiction of how there can be a Supreme Uncreated Paramatman and a created individual lesser atman we have to look at the Gurbani. And the Gurbani says the individual atman will obtain Self-realization. This condition of Self-realization is God-consciousness. The ego-identity which is merely shadows which obstruct the light have been brushed aside, and what is reflected back is what has always been Present, the One Divine Uncreated. Because it isn't a divination of the human being at all, it's the removal of the illusions of separation. In this place, this created world of the appearance of duality, is illusion. We do not perceive the full Reality.

    In a sense, this existence can be said to be like a dream world, where we are dreaming a certain illusion of form. But getting beyond the illusions of thought, kalpas, and misperception, and the ignorance, avidya of body-identification and sense perception, beyond all these things is the Fourth state of consciousness. So we cannot even deal with concepts like ego, and body and time when speaking of a dimensionality which is outside of time and space. Without space, of course, there is no such thing as this body sitting in this chair. Those are reality in this world. That is not the deepest Reality. Those are physical manifestations of something quite beyond the limitations of a human personality. And our core nature is something beyond the limitations of the merely human. So we cannot be, at our core essence, the frailty of a created being. When all creation passes away, when all forms fade to dust and there isn't even a speck of dust, do we cease to exist? Is this physical universe all there is? You see, these are the issues being related in the concept of atma. And there is no concept of atma without a concept of Paramatma.

    According to dualistic monotheism, the atma is forever separate from Paramatma. But by strict Advaitic definition, the Paramatma is the fullest and deepest reality of atma. Atma is just the reflection of light through a prism of glass to manifest here. Atma is an illusion of creation. The Reality is, there is no creation. Ultimately, beyond time, every sargun manifestation recedes back to what has always preceded, the nirguna. There is only the One, not two, not three, not three hundred thirty million, not uncountable infinities. One. Everything else is an illusion of the Time dimension. Even the very thoughts of your mind. And after passage of time, end of time, and outside of time, the illusions cease to exist. Within a concept of eternity, even the sun and stars will vanish. What will you be then if there is nothing left to be? You see it isn't the individual forms, but the consciousness itself which persists beyond time.

    Knowledge of God. Breham Gyani. Brahma-Jnana. The epitome of liberation. The realization of the true Self hidden behind all forms.

    And this goes to the concept of mukti. How can there be liberation at all from the ego-identity if you don't cease to exist as separate? It is the ideas of separation and individual identity which have frozen the light of your own being and caused material manifestation. These kalpas and skandas and kaleshas and karams are what form your individuality. Without these false thoughts and suffering identity which is darkness obsuring the light, there is only light.



    ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਈਐ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥
    jothee joth milaaeeai surathee surath sanjog ||
    When one's light merges into the Light, and one's intuitive consciousness is joined with the Intuitive Consciousness,

    ਹਿੰਸਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਗਤੁ ਗਏ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਹਸਾ ਸੋਗੁ ॥
    hinsaa houmai gath geae naahee sehasaa sog ||
    then one's cruel and violent instincts and egotism depart, and skepticism and sorrow are taken away.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਮੇਲੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥੨॥
    guramukh jis har man vasai this maelae gur sanjog ||2||
    The Lord abides within the mind of the Gurmukh, who merges in the Lord's Union, through the Guru. ||2||

    ~SGGS Ji p. 21​


    Is God in Sikhism defined as the Lord divided like fractions into uncountable millions of existences? Is He divided into 330 different Devas and demi-gods? Or is there only 1 God separate from the rest of creation? That would be dualistic monotheism, or Dvaita, a belief in 1 separate God and the rest of creation. The other interpretation is Advaita. Everything that is, is only one. The nothingness of zero nirgun is = to uncountable infinities. Because the uncountable infinities are only sargun saroop of the nothingness. In Tibetan Buddhism they teach the nirguna as Shunyata, which means essential emptiness. But Shunyata has a unique characteristic in that it is the union of emptiness and light. By this definition, the Geshes assert that the emptiness is pregnant with potential. Consider the integer zero. You can express it as a set (0). Or even a subset 0(0). But it remains nothing. With this mathematical exception, the emptiness is actually a placeholder, because it can move forward or backwards in positive or negative numbers. So it would like like a basic number set of potential infinities in both directions. -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 ad infinitum. This shows how creation is dependant on the nirgun emptiness. But if you multiplied any infinity against zero, your result would be zero. So the zero sum is not dependant on the infinity. The ultimate equation of everything that is, is nothing. It is no thing. Just as negative integers reflect an imaginary quotient because they don't exist except as constructs of the mind, so does reality have an illusionary quality. So from our human perspective, we exist, the material world exists, we have a real experience here, and ideas that the world is unreal or doesn't exist defy logic.

    The infinite and uncountable varieties of forms are really only illusory, a play of light and shadows, of particle and thought, tendancies to exist, holographic motion. There is only One.


    ਝੂਠਾ ਤਨੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨਿਓ ਜਿਉ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਰੈਨਾਈ ॥੧॥
    jhoothaa than saachaa kar maaniou jio supanaa rainaaee ||1||
    The body is false, but they believe it to be true; it is like a dream in the night. ||1||

    ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਸੋ ਸਗਲ ਬਿਨਾਸੈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਦਰ ਕੀ ਛਾਈ ॥
    jo dheesai so sagal binaasai jio baadhar kee shhaaee ||
    Whatever is seen, shall all pass away, like the shadow of a cloud.

    ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗੁ ਜਾਨਿਓ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਰਹਿਓ ਰਾਮ ਸਰਨਾਈ ॥੨॥੨॥
    jan naanak jag jaaniou mithhiaa rehiou raam saranaaee ||2||2||
    O servant Nanak, one who knows the world to be unreal, dwells in the Sanctuary of the Lord. ||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 219​


    Maya is of the nature of mind. Maya generates different degrees of illusions. Maya pervades everywhere. If your mind is destroyed by discrimination and Vichara, then Maya will not afflict you. ~Upanishads




    ਏਕਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥
    eaekaa joth joth hai sareeraa ||
    The One Light is the light of all bodies.

    ਸਬਦਿ ਦਿਖਾਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥
    sabadh dhikhaaeae sathigur pooraa ||
    The Perfect True Guru reveals it through the Word of the Shabad.

    ਆਪੇ ਫਰਕੁ ਕੀਤੋਨੁ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥
    aapae farak keethon ghatt anthar aapae banath banaavaniaa ||1||
    He Himself instills the sense of separation within our hearts; He Himself created the Creation. ||1||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 125


    This mind which ever hankers after sensual objects is the seed of Maya. If the mind is annihilated Maya will vanish. You will attain the state of quiescence. Brahma-Jnana will dawn in you. ~Upanishads​

    Darshana: sight, to see, to behold something bright. "Perspectives, ways of seeing." To have Darshan subtly changes the perceiver. It changes your perspective. It cleanses clouds and darkness from your mind. It is to receive the truest apprehension of jnana, gyan. Gyan is received. It can't be obtained through self-effort. That's why the most brilliant scholars continue to study and search what is endless, and the very simple and most humble have become brahm-gyani. To become brahm-gyani you must be receptive to the Light. It has nothing to do with education. Divine wisdom isn't knowledge or collection of facts. It has to do with inward vision, and thus intuition of what is inwardly perceived. It is to recognize the Self-reflection. How can people talk about spirituality, let alone mukti, when they don't even change their ordinary consciousness? When all frames of reference are based on the sense objects of the sansaara? We are here (in this space in time) and God is over there somewhere (in another spatial dimension). Space and time do not exist outside the limitation of our dimensionality.

    When I stand on a clear night and look up at the stars billions of years distant from me, I am seeing the light as it was billions of years distant. Because it took the light billions of years to travel to the distance of my eyes. So when I see the stars, I'm only seeing the past. I can't see them as they are in this present moment of time. But in the God-conscious Fourth state, there is no time. So naturally the perception will be different. Outside of Time, there is only the Timeless Oneness. Maya and duality are building blocks of the time dimension. Like the Christian descriptor of God's name, "I am" in Hebrew actually translates "I shall be there." It is active, future, past and present participle. The name is a verb. It is motion and life. It is affirmation of perpetual Presence. Everlastingness is outside of time. Like the definitions of God's Presence in sansaara through vehicle of sargun saroop of Das Avtaara, "I will keep coming back to you until you find your self in Me."

    Like a mirror, we behold the darshan of the holy and the beautiful in the terrible injustices and evils of fake world. Darkness is blackboard on which the chalk of righteousness writes. Through the righteousness of Dharma we perceive Darshan of what we could be. Darshan of what we should be. Darshan of what we are, if only we could die to self. Here is one truth about Abrahamic teachings that heaven is the ultimate: And that is, "Heaven wouldn't be heaven without you, and you, and you." There can be no ultimate liberation until all the lost and separated sparks are united in the One Divine Fire. That is why only merging can be the ultimate. And merging requires a pantheistic perspective, of Seeing the actual Reality and Presence of the True One hiding behind all forms. Bhairaagi, detachment from the suffering world of forms which pass away and longing for the Original Ground of Being, the True Bliss. That is the way to find God. Bhagkti, the abandoning of the illusionary world of forms and shadows to have Real experience through the force of love, seeking to unite the lover with the Divine Beloved One.





    ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥
    eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
    The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

    ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥
    aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||
    Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 469



    ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਅੜਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਲੀਆ ਸਮਾਈ ਰਾਮ ॥
    jis thae oupajiarraa thin leeaa samaaee raam ||
    We originated from Him, and into Him we shall merge once again.

    ਮਿਲਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜੋਤੀ ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤੀ ਉਦਕੁ ਉਦਕਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
    mil breham jothee outh pothee oudhak oudhak samaaeiaa ||
    I merge into God's Light, through and through, like water merging into water.

    ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਏਕੁ ਰਵਿਆ ਨਹ ਦੂਜਾ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਇਆ ॥
    jal thhal meheeal eaek raviaa neh dhoojaa dhrisattaaeiaa ||
    The One Lord permeates the water, the land and the sky - I do not see any other.

    ਬਣਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਣਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣਿ ਪੂਰਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
    ban thrin thribhavan poor pooran keemath kehan n jaaee ||
    He is totally permeating the woods, meadows and the three worlds. I cannot express His worth.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 545




    ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਲਾਇਆ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਿੰਦੁੜੀਏ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਜੇ ਸਬਦ ਘਣੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ ॥੨॥
    jan naanak har maelaaeiaa maeree jindhurreeeae ghar vaajae sabadh ghanaerae raam ||2||
    Servant Nanak has merged into the Lord, O my soul; the many melodies of the Shabad resound within his heart. ||2||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 538

    Guru Nanak Dev Ji achieved non-duality, according to Gurbani. A condition in which He has God-consciousness, and is no longer the individual consciousness of limited personality or jeev. From this merged fourth state of Turiya consciousness, Satguru is in fact completely one with Vaheguru. There is no difference between Satguru and God. Because there is no longer sansaaric personality. It is merged. It is mukt. It is free. It has returned to the origin, so Guruji is no longer the human physicality or the jeevatman. Guruji is the Uncreated Parabrahm. How can the created become the Uncreated? Because the created doesn't exist as an independant shadow obstructing the Light. There is only Shabad-Jyot of the One all-pervading Vaheguru. Guruji is merged. He can no longer be distinguished from the source, origin and ground of original being, which is the realized Self, Uncreated nirgun Paramatman. So there is no longer any separate object. There is no "I" and "Thou." It's not like we can picture Guruji in a heavenly place somewhere enjoying darshan of Vaheguru by staring at God as a separate entity and listening intently so he can infallibly relate what words he hears direct from God's lips. It's not anything like the dualistic monotheism of Abrahamic convention. Guruji never questioned His Creator, because He came into the world as a God-Realized soul. So everything we know about 10 forms of Guru, and 1 form of Shri Guru Granth Sahib is already in a state of being merged. They are indistinguishable. The Shabda-Jyot has come into sansaara through vehicle of Guru Nanak Dev Ji direct from the imperceivable nirguna. There was no human personality ever standing in it's way. He is the Satguru of the Kaliyug.




    ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਉਪਜੈ ਖਿਨਿ ਖਪੈ ਖਿਨੁ ਆਵੈ ਖਿਨੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
    khin mehi oupajai khin khapai khin aavai khin jaae ||
    In an instant, one is born, and in an instant, one dies. In an instant one comes, and in an instant one goes.

    ਸਬਦੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੈ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਸੰਤਾਇ ॥
    sabadh pashhaanai rav rehai naa this kaal santhaae ||
    One who recognizes the Shabad merges into it, and is not afflicted by death.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 58



    ਸਹਸਾ ਇਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਆਇਆ ਜਾਇਆ ॥
    sehasaa eihu sansaar hai mar janmai aaeiaa jaaeiaa ||
    This world is an illusion; it dies and it is re-born-it comes and it goes in reincarnation.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 138



    ਜੈਸਾ ਸਾ ਤੈਸਾ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਇਆ ॥
    jaisaa saa thaisaa dhrisattaaeiaa ||
    As God is, so does He appear;

    ਅਪੁਨੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਮਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
    apunae kaaraj mehi aap samaaeiaa ||
    in His Own creation, He Himself is pervading.

    ਸੋਧਤ ਸੋਧਤ ਸੋਧਤ ਸੀਝਿਆ ॥
    sodhhath sodhhath sodhhath seejhiaa ||
    Searching, searching, searching, and finally, success!

    ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਤਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਬੂਝਿਆ ॥
    gur prasaadh thath sabh boojhiaa ||
    By Guru's Grace, the essence of all reality is understood.

    ਜਬ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਬ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਮੂਲੁ ॥
    jab dhaekho thab sabh kishh mool ||
    Wherever I look, there I see Him, at the root of all things.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਸੂਖਮੁ ਸੋਈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥੫॥
    naanak so sookham soee asathhool ||5||
    O Nanak, He is the subtle, and He is also the manifest. ||5||

    ਨਹ ਕਿਛੁ ਜਨਮੈ ਨਹ ਕਿਛੁ ਮਰੈ ॥
    neh kishh janamai neh kishh marai ||
    Nothing is born, and nothing dies.

    ਆਪਨ ਚਲਿਤੁ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕਰੈ ॥
    aapan chalith aap hee karai ||
    He Himself stages His own drama.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 281



    ਆਪਾ ਪਦੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੁ ਨ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਅਭਿਉ ਨ ਚੂਕੇ ॥੨॥
    aapaa padh nirabaan n cheenihaaa ein bidhh abhio n chookae ||2||
    He does not realize the dignity of the self, and Nirvaanaa; because of this, his doubt does not depart. ||2||

    ਕਹੀ ਨ ਉਪਜੈ ਉਪਜੀ ਜਾਣੈ ਭਾਵ ਅਭਾਵ ਬਿਹੂਣਾ ॥
    kehee n oupajai oupajee jaanai bhaav abhaav bihoonaa ||
    The soul is not born, even though he thinks it is born; it is free from birth and death.

    ਉਦੈ ਅਸਤ ਕੀ ਮਨ ਬੁਧਿ ਨਾਸੀ ਤਉ ਸਦਾ ਸਹਜਿ ਲਿਵ ਲੀਣਾ ॥੩॥
    oudhai asath kee man budhh naasee tho sadhaa sehaj liv leenaa ||3||
    When the mortal gives up his ideas of birth and death, he remains constantly absorbed in the Lord's Love. ||3||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 475



    ਤੂ ਸਚਾ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਚੁ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ ॥
    thoo sachaa sachiaar jin sach varathaaeiaa ||
    You are True, O True Lord; You dispense True Justice.

    ਬੈਠਾ ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਇ ਕਵਲੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥
    baithaa thaarree laae kaval shhapaaeiaa ||
    Like a lotus, You sit in the primal celestial trance; You are hidden from view.

    ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਵਡਾ ਕਹਾਇ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
    brehamai vaddaa kehaae anth n paaeiaa ||
    Brahma is called great, but even he does not know Your limits.

    ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਾਪੁ ਨ ਮਾਇ ਕਿਨਿ ਤੂ ਜਾਇਆ ॥
    naa this baap n maae kin thoo jaaeiaa ||
    You have no father or mother; who gave birth to You?

    ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਵਰਨ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥
    naa this roop n raekh varan sabaaeiaa ||
    You have no form or feature; You transcend all social classes.

    ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭੁਖ ਪਿਆਸ ਰਜਾ ਧਾਇਆ ॥
    naa this bhukh piaas rajaa dhhaaeiaa ||
    You have no hunger or thirst; You are satisfied and satiated.

    ਗੁਰ ਮਹਿ ਆਪੁ ਸਮੋਇ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ ॥
    gur mehi aap samoe sabadh varathaaeiaa ||
    You have merged Yourself into the Guru; You are pervading through the Word of Your Shabad.

    ਸਚੇ ਹੀ ਪਤੀਆਇ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੨॥
    sachae hee patheeaae sach samaaeiaa ||2||
    When he is pleasing to the True Lord, the mortal merges in Truth. ||2||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1279




    ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਵ ਸਾਜਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਲੀਣਾ ॥
    gur naanak sach neev saaj sathigur sang leenaa ||
    Guru Nanak laid the foundation of Truth; He is blended with the True Guru.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਘਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਬੀਣਾ ॥੩॥
    gur arajun ghar gur raamadhaas aparanpar beenaa ||3||
    In the House of Guru Raam Daas, Guru Arjun has appeared as the Embodiment of the Infinite Lord. ||3||

    ਖੇਲੁ ਗੂੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਉ ਕੀਅਉ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ਸੰਤੋਖਿ ਸਮਾਚਰਿ੍ਯ੍ਯਓ ਬਿਮਲ ਬੁਧਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸਮਾਣਉ ॥
    khael goorrho keeao har raae santhokh samaachariyou bimal budhh sathigur samaano ||
    The Sovereign Lord King has staged this wondrous play; contentment was gathered together, and pure understanding was infused in the True Guru.

    ਆਜੋਨੀ ਸੰਭਵਿਅਉ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਕਵੀਅਣਿ ਬਖਾਣਿਅਉ ॥
    aajonee sanbhaviao sujas kaly kaveean bakhaaniao ||
    KALL the poet utters the Praises of the Unborn, Self-existent Lord.

    ਗੁਰਿ ਨਾਨਕਿ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਵਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਗਦਿ ਅਮਰ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥
    gur naanak angadh varyo gur angadh amar nidhhaan ||
    Guru Nanak blessed Guru Angad, and Guru Angad blessed Guru Amar Daas with the treasure.

    ਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਵਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਪਰਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ॥੪॥
    gur raamadhaas arajun varyo paaras paras pramaan ||4||
    Guru Raam Daas blessed Guru Arjun, who touched the Philosopher's Stone, and was certified. ||4||

    ਸਦ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਅਮੋਲੁ ਆਜੋਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
    sadh jeevan arajun amol aajonee sanbho ||
    O Guru Arjun, You are Eternal, Invaluable, Unborn, Self-existent,

    ਭਯ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਪਰ ਦੁਖ ਨਿਵਾਰੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਨੰਭਉ ॥
    bhay bhanjan par dhukh nivaar apaar ananbho ||
    the Destroyer of fear, the Dispeller of pain, Infinite and Fearless.

    ਅਗਹ ਗਹਣੁ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭ੍ਰਾਂਤਿ ਦਹਣੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਸੁਖ ਦਾਤਉ ॥
    ageh gehan bhram bhraanth dhehan seethal sukh dhaatho ||
    You have grasped the Ungraspable, and burnt away doubt and skepticism. You bestow cooling and soothing peace.

    ਆਸੰਭਉ ਉਦਵਿਅਉ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਧਾਤਉ ॥
    aasanbho oudhaviao purakh pooran bidhhaatho ||
    The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਆਦਿ ਅੰਗਦ ਅਮਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇਅਉ ॥
    naanak aadh angadh amar sathigur sabadh samaaeiao ||
    First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad.

    ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਅਉ ॥੫॥
    dhhan dhhann guroo raamadhaas gur jin paaras paras milaaeiao ||5||
    Blessed, blessed is Guru Raam Daas, the Philosopher's Stone, who transformed Guru Arjun unto Himself. ||5||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1407


    ~Bhul chak maaf karni ji
     
  11. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    Why Gaudiya Vaishnava schools?

    Why not Sufic Islam? Why not any other faith?
     
  12. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    The primary reasons may be, I am not so sure of but one can make out things, that the two school of thoughts have many things in common.,Theory of Karma and karmic reaction., The journey of the soul or the science of soul, Broad agreement on the concept of God and His relationship with the other jivas and the interrelation ship of jivas and.the relation ship of the God and HIS creation i.e Nirgun and sargun Forms and reincarnation and 84 Lakh species and Four Yugas etc, etc. Further there are very pointed references to Vedas in Bani.

    We do not or may not have similarities of these concepts in Sufiism or even Islam. This is per my little understanding of the things.
    I cannot take up questions based on this.
     
  13. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    This is my opinion based on studying the concepts and philosophical system in Gurbani itself. It is not my decision to say to Guru, "Pick these concepts instead of those."

    As to why not another faith, I think it's beyond obvious that Guruji lived in a certain geographical region at a particular time in history. Guruji belongs to the traditions of India, and not the Western countries. And undeniably the Vaishnava influence is so strong, even to the same philosophical positions which differs from other schools of Vedanta. For example Gurbani completely subordinates every deva to the nirgun Parabrahm. And in particular says this about Shiva:


    ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਉ ਖੋਜਹਿ ਮਹੇਸੁਰ ॥
    breham giaanee ko khojehi mehaesur ||
    The God-conscious being is sought by the great god Shiva.

    ~SGGS Ji p. 273


    The Shaivite sampradyas and the Vaishnav sampradyas are always having conflicts because the Vaishnav tradition always subordinates Shiv below even a God-conscious human being. The argument that Bramalok and Shivalok are marginal because still in materiality is also a Vaishnav teaching which annoys most other schools of Hinduism.



    ਸਿਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪੁਰੀ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਕੋ ਥਾਉ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
    siv puree breham eindhr puree nihachal ko thhaao naahi ||
    The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.

    ~SGGS Ji p. 214


    So these kind of concepts in Gurbani just point to close relationship of Vaishnav philosophy in Gurbani, more so than evidence of Guruji correcting faults in Hindu teaching in general. Because Gurbani is nearly identical to Vaishnav Vedantic theology on several points, how could it be correcting faults of Hinduism and reject validity of Vaishnav Vedanta? Just to generalize that all Hindus worship Shiva as Mahadeva, and then read Gurbani subordinating Shiva and Brahma is not correct to infer a contrary teaching. It is Gaudiya Vaishnava school of philosophy to teach this, and also subordination of Vishnu to Krsna. Only Har Krishan is equated as the Supreme nirgun Parabrahm.




    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
    guramukh sangee kirasan muraarae ||
    The Lord Krishna becomes the Gurmukh's Companion.

    ਦਇਆਲ ਦਮੋਦਰੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਭਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
    dhaeiaal dhamodhar guramukh paaeeai horath kithai n bhaathee jeeo ||2||
    The Gurmukh finds the Merciful Lord. He is not found any other way. ||2||

    ਨਿਰਹਾਰੀ ਕੇਸਵ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਾ ॥
    nirehaaree kaesav niravairaa ||
    He does not need to eat; His Hair is Wondrous and Beautiful; He is free of hate.

    ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਾ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੈਰਾ ॥
    kott janaa jaa kae poojehi pairaa ||
    Millions of people worship His Feet.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਈ ਭਗਤੁ ਇਕਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
    guramukh hiradhai jaa kai har har soee bhagath eikaathee jeeo ||3||
    He alone is a devotee, who becomes Gurmukh, whose heart is filled with the Lord, Har, Har. ||3||

    ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥
    amogh dharasan baeanth apaaraa ||
    Forever fruitful is the Blessed Vision of His Darshan; He is Infinite and Incomparable.

    ਵਡ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਸਦਾ ਦਾਤਾਰਾ ॥
    vadd samarathh sadhaa dhaathaaraa ||
    He is Awesome and All-powerful; He is forever the Great Giver.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੀਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਤਰੀਐ ਗਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਰਲੀ ਜਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੬॥੧੩॥
    guramukh naam japeeai thith thareeai gath naanak viralee jaathee jeeo ||4||6||13||
    As Gurmukh, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and you shall be carried across. O Nanak, rare are those who know this state! ||4||6||13||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 98



    In Gurbani it seems the nirgun Parabrahm is Supreme and not specifically sargun Har Krishan although certain pauris do elevate Har Krishan. And this is no contradiction to Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings either because the nondual nirgun is held to be the highest Supreme knowledge of the God. Most of the names for God in Gurbani come directly from Vaishnava bhakti school. For example, "Govinda, Gopala." These are titles of Har Krishan. "Go" is the root meaning "cow." We know gopis as cow maids. Govinda means "herder of cows." Gopala means "protector of cows." The meanings don't vanish or change suddenly.

    ਲੋਚਨ ਹੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੇ ਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ਧਰ ਆਨਨ ਹੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੋ ਸਮ ਮੈਨਾ ॥ ਕੈਕੈ ਕਟਾਛ ਚੁਰਾਇ ਲਯੋ ਮਨ ਪੈ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਜੋਊ ਰੱਛਕ ਧੈਨਾ
    Lochan hai jin ke su prabhaa dhar aanan hai jin ko sam mainaa|| Kai-kai kataachh churaae layo man pai tin ko jooo rachchhak dhaeenaa||
    They, whose eyes are like lotus and the remaining body like the god of love, their mind has been stolen by Krishna the protector of cows, with signs;
    ~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 763




    ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
    satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|
    In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

    ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
    duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|
    The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

    ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ।
    taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|
    In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

    ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ ।
    kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|
    In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

    ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ ।
    chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|
    The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

    ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
    chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|
    When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

    ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥
    jahaa tay upajiaa dhiri tahaa samaavai ॥49॥1॥
    The jiv merges again in its origin.

    ~Displaying Vaar 1 Pauri 49 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji




    Regardless of someone's personal attitude about validity of Bhai Gurdas vaaran, he did live during time of 4 forms of Guru and was personal scribe of Adi Granth. So, it's not so easy to dismiss his interpretation of Gurbani because it clashes with our own opinions. But listen to what Bhai Gurdas Ji is saying the beej Gurmantar coming from letters that stand for Krishna in particular:

    Vishnu. Vasudeyva. Harikrishna. Raam. Govinda.

    All names of Bhagavan Krishna in Vaishnava bhakti sampradyas. How can the relationship be ignored? Not one name, title, avtaara for any other deva. If you are going to do any kind of credible analysis of this relationship it can't be overlooked.

    As to Sufi Islam, the fact is they were influenced by Vaishnava Vedanta, which is why they are persecuted to this day in Muslim countries. Sufi schools practice forms of pranayama, intensive meditation and trance ("wajd" related to mastallah or mastana, same as the yogic "God-intoxicated."), some get siddhias and pierce or burn themselves and remain unharmed, they believe in a form of chakra system, samaadhi, and are considered an Advaita religion and not a dualistic monotheism. They practice dhikr which is quite similar to pranayam Naam abhiyaas while japping the name Allah. It's fair to say Sufism is already a synthesis of Islam and bhakti yoga, more than Sikhism is a true synthesis of bhakti Islam and Vaishnav bhakti. It seems to me Sikh religion is influenced by teachings from Sufi Vaishnavism as well as Vaishnav Vedanta more than any true form of Islam.

    [​IMG]
    Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

    If you watch the video below, you can see how the Muslims have been influenced by Vaishnava Vedanta sants to create the sect of Sufism with it's intense emphasis on kirtan and Gurmantra as spiritual practices. There is even a Shaivite siddha yoga type influence as well. I don't believe there is any literature whatsoever within Islam which is anything like the yoga and bhakti sutras to explain the mysticism within Sufism. Sufism is heavily influenced by Hindu religion. And my guess is that's because the influences were "true" philosophically, and "worked" yogically as to creating trance states and alterations of consciousness with clear signs of Kundalini awakening, kriyas, etc. Almost everyone would agree, Sufi's have very little in common with orthodox Islam. And some Sufi practices are indistinguishable from a yoga ashram.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ACMyqDDDg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWvv8PSntk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yjt7PSZTg8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63WGG1r9s9U



    ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
    achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
    The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

    ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
    madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
    He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

    ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
    rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
    The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

    ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
    mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
    The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

    ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
    jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
    The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

    ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
    jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
    The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

    ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
    dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
    The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

    ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
    dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
    The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

    ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
    baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
    O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
    sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
    You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

    ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
    banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
    Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

    ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
    sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
    You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

    ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
    bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
    You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

    ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
    gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
    The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

    ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
    baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
    O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5

    ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
    mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
    Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

    ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
    dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
    Savior of Dropadi's honor.

    ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
    kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
    Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

    ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
    amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
    The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

    ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
    akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
    His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

    ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
    abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
    O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

    ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
    sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
    The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

    ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
    mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
    By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

    ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
    kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
    The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

    ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
    niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
    He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

    ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
    dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
    He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

    ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
    saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
    He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

    ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
    banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
    He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

    ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
    sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
    His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

    ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
    sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
    He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

    ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
    peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
    The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

    ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
    jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
    The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.

    ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਸਰਬੰਗਾ ॥੧੧॥
    saaringadhhar bhagavaan beethulaa mai ganath n aavai sarabangaa ||11||
    The Archer who draws the bow, the Beloved Lord God; I cannot count all His limbs. ||11||

    ~SGGS Ji p. 1082




    ਨ ਸੰਖੰ ਨ ਚਕ੍ਰੰ ਨ ਗਦਾ ਨ ਸਿਆਮੰ ॥
    n sankhan n chakran n gadhaa n siaaman ||
    God has no conch-shell, no religious mark, no paraphernalia; he does not have blue skin.

    ਅਸ੍ਚਰਜ ਰੂਪੰ ਰਹੰਤ ਜਨਮੰ ॥
    ascharaj roopan rehanth janaman ||
    His Form is Wondrous and Amazing. He is beyond incarnation.

    ਨੇਤ ਨੇਤ ਕਥੰਤਿ ਬੇਦਾ ॥
    naeth naeth kathhanth baedhaa ||
    The Vedas say that He is not this, and not that.

    ~SGGS Ji p. 1359




    Rather than reading into two apparently contradictory pauris of Gurbani, by Shri Guru Arjun Dev Ji. I think it will make more sense and be closer to the correct interpretation if people realize Guruji is not praising one thing and then negating it later as if He couldn't make up His mind. Guruji is defining the God as formed and formless, having sarguna (perceivable attributes due to manifestation in the materiality and including all consequent shortcomings of being subject to the material world of pakrti which forms the three gunas: essential nature of being: rajo guna, tamo guna and satva guna. Gunas by the way are defined as "string" and also as "tendencies." Guna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The teaching of the Three Gunas is found in the Vaishnava scriptures: Mahabharata, Bhagavad Gita, and Śrīmad Bhāgavatam. Those writings which elevate Bhagavan Krishna as the Supreme Godhead.


    So just reflect for a moment how long ago this teaching was revealed to mankind and only within the last 20 years has modern day physics discovered that "strings" were the basic building blocks of all matter. And Quantum Mechanical theory shows that all matter has a relationship to consciousness at the particle level. This relationship to a perceiver has been described as "tendancies to exist" from the writings of physicist Fritjof Capra based on the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen Complex. This is whether Quantum Entanglement and Non-Locality have implications which cause physicists to take a leap into the realm of spirituality and metaphysics to explain, at least theoretically. Quantum Physics with regard to spirituality

    I think this shows very clearly that there is a kind of infallibly revealed truth from the God in these teachings. And Guruji was also able to recognize this because He is a God-realized Satguru. I'm completely convinced that Gurbani is absolute truth with no mythology or fake thing in it, except that which is explicitly stated to be mythological by Guruji.



    The Vaishnava Vedanta sampradya is primarily a Dvaitic monotheistic philosophy and contrasts with the strictly Advaitist schools in that it makes perfect sense, "Why is Guru praying to God if Guru is God?" Because that is the element of Vaishnav Bhakti teaching which is Dvaitic. However, it is a modified philosophy because of the inclusion of the Advaitist definition of the God in the teaching of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Achintya Bheda Abheda ("inconceivable oneness and difference"). So because of the expanded definition the Supreme God is defined in terms of dualism, sarguna as well as non-dualism, nirguna. So he will have describable attribures such as:



    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
    sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
    You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

    ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
    banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
    Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful. ~SGGS Ji p. 1082



    So contrary to being a negation of the validity of the sargun saroop of Raam Chandra, a Krishan avataar, Gurbani is actually confirming the Gaudiya Vaishnav theology that He is formless and also has a form. God as the Supreme aspect is nirguna, but Gurbani also has a Dvaitist teaching, in that the formless God also takes on a sargun saroop to manifest in sansaara. Advaita means "not two," and refers to the nirgun, attributeless, formless, highest reality of the God.



    ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੋ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥
    anthar baahar har prabh eaeko dhoojaa avar n koee ||
    Inwardly and outwardly, they saw only the One Lord God; for them there was no other second. ~SGGS Ji p. 445


    And it is clear that this exactly principle is the very definition of Gaudiya Vaishnava school of Vedanta which teaches Dvaita and Advaita and emphasizes devotional kirtan and chanting of Har Krishan and his avataars.






    ~Bhul chak maaf
     
  14. pk70

    pk70
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    Sikh80 ji
    I am not questioning you but actually will try to share some views in context of your comments.
    Talking about similarities, there are basic prominent expressions in various religions regardless of their origin. For example, passion, truthfulness etc. All the statements around these expressions create similarities in all religions, all the same, there are basic points that detour them from each other. To dig out such things and to start logically prove that this religion has something to do with that or vise versa is nothing but to create confusion about their individuality. All the religions prior to the new one are destined to leave an impression of similarities, as many say, actually may not be true. To understand this, instead of referring to various scholarly contents, a small example can be taken. For instance, in architecture, buildings are built; basics remain the same save for new designs and new material. Checking the soil before building high rise, securing- aids and new improved material are very similar in all, new concepts, new designs and new needs are which differ fundamentally; still architects keep their identity signatures. Religions, most of them, have common idea of Super power though they may differ in its concept. Guru Nanak verifies himself how he was called upon by the Creator, how a duty of connecting the people with the Creator was bestowed upon him; ( Maajh Kee vaar, P-27, Mehla 1), add to it, Bani was revealed to him by the Creator as per Gurbani. After reading in writing, if some scholars dragging his “panth” to other faiths to justify their own imaginative theories, it doesn’t negate what Guru himself declared in writing. Guru ji was not influenced by prevailed ideology as foolish views surface here and there, actually Guru ji was enlightened by the Creator Himself. In prospect of his enlightenment Guru ji commented on almost all prevailed ideologies. Gurbani is addressed to different people of different caliber, while understanding what Guru Message is all about, people have started making their own nitches and have started their own pseudo faiths within a faith. All the references seen in Guru
    I am giving you just one quote out of many given quotes to state that how praise of Lord is used to justify a reference based new ideology.
    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ
    guramukh sangee kirasan muraarae ||
    The Lord Krishna becomes the Gurmukh's Companion.
    Wrong translation, why lord Krishna will be companion of Gurmukh since Guru ji is talking about The Creator, this is made clear by Guru ji in next Vaak, read on
    ਦਇਆਲ ਦਮੋਦਰੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਭਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ
    dhaeiaal dhamodhar guramukh paaeeai horath kithai n bhaathee jeeo ||2||
    The Gurmukh finds the Merciful Lord. He is not found any other way. ||2||
    See, about who Guru ji is talking about in the first Guru Vaak-Merciful Lord
    ਨਿਰਹਾਰੀ ਕੇਸਵ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਾ
    nirehaaree kaesav niravairaa ||
    He does not need to eat; His Hair is Wondrous and Beautiful; He is free of hate.
    Here HE is addressed as Kesv, too, same Infinite Lord
    ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਾ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੈਰਾ
    kott janaa jaa kae poojehi pairaa ||
    Millions of people worship His Feet.
    Whose feet, of the Creator, the Infinite
    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਈ ਭਗਤੁ ਇਕਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ
    guramukh hiradhai jaa kai har har soee bhagath eikaathee jeeo ||3||
    He alone is a devotee, who becomes Gurmukh, whose heart is filled with the Lord, Har, Har. ||3||
    Creator is directly addressed as Hari here, why has the translator brought Lord Krishna from no where? It is called interpreting Gurbani without understanding the whole Shabad and mould it as per desire.
    ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅਪਾਰਾ
    amogh dharasan baeanth apaaraa ||
    Forever fruitful is the Blessed Vision of His Darshan; He is Infinite and Incomparable.
    Now see, Infinite expression is clear, there is no reference of any other Sargun Sroop, therefore Guru Vaak is used to enforce some one's own views.
    SO FACT REMAINS THAT GURBANI IS REVEALED BUT UNSUUCCESSFULLY OTHER INFLUENCES ARE STATED.


     
  15. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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  16. pk70

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    namjapji

    Thanks for posting that video inf., question, what are they singing while dancing? I couldn't make any thing out of it:eek:, is it any sufi klaam?
     
  17. ekmusafir_ajnabi

    ekmusafir_ajnabi
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    Pk70 ji,

    I disagree with your analysis. The shabad you have quoted is a Human response to the barbaric act by Guru ji. Guru ji lived a life like a human. So why is it that Guru ji cannot give a human response to the incident. What ever god does is his Leela. Because we live a life of duality we fail to understand due to our emotions.

    Life incidents are designed to teach us a lesson. If everything is done as per the plans of God then why do we cry out and complain. When we do some good we jump to take credit. When something bad happens we try to find an escape goat. Why not then accept the fault is ones own. We will have no problems. If God is responsible for both good and bad and he decides to take it out on us because we belong to him, our body is his then why not sit and accept it. The martyrdom is Guru Arjan Dev ji is a prime example of the accepting the Will / Hukam without complaints.

    Guru Nanak Dev ji is fully aware of the situation as to why what is happening. If he does not comment as a human being he would have been called hard hearted being. Our perception of Guru ji after over 500 years of reading about him is bound to be different to being in his presence whilst in human form.
    After the Rahao "ਆਪੇ ਜੋੜਿ ਵਿਛੋੜੇ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਖੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ " he is accepting Gods will. The problem is we sometime get carried away with our personal thoughts. Pk70ji you have a very inquisitive mind. Plz read the verses again and again both in subjective and objective mode. Do not make quick decisions.

    Please feel free to accept or reject my explanation as your conscious allows.

    ekmusafir_ajnabi.
     
    #16 ekmusafir_ajnabi, Jul 9, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  18. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    The fact remains veer ji, these aren't new pseudo faiths but a well established sanatan tradition existing within Sikhism from the beginning. You cannot wish away Shri Chand Yogi and sanatan Udasi Panth. You cannot ignore sanatan Nirmala Panth and sanatan Nihang Panth. You cannot ignore the entire message of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which is based on Vedic thought and Upanishads which clear Vaishnava themes, in particular breaking down caste barriers, japping Gurmantra to obtain mukti. You cannot ignore the existence of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani with it's almost total allusions to lessons from Hinduism, and even if YOU don't accept it, Akal Takht and majority of the Sikh Panth does including Nirmalas and Nihangs. You don't have to accept but you can't ignore sanatan Naamdhari's either.

    So what you're failing to acknowledge is these insights aren't even new. They've been around for hundreds of years right alongside Sikhism from the beginning. Accept it or not, these aren't even radical views. They just happen to belong to a minority voice which has always existed within the Panth or alongside it.


    Are you really not able to read the whole Guru vaak which is describing the Lord as Krishna? Here, let me help you.



    ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
    dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
    The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

    ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
    dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
    The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

    ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
    baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
    O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
    sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
    You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

    ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
    banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
    Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

    ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
    sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
    You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

    ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
    bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
    You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

    ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
    gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
    The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

    ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
    baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
    O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

    ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
    mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
    Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

    ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
    dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
    Savior of Dropadi's honor.

    ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
    kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
    Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

    ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
    amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
    The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

    ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
    akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
    His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

    ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
    abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
    O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

    ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
    sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
    The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

    ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
    mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
    By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

    ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
    kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
    The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

    ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
    niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
    He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

    ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
    dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
    He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

    ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
    saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
    He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

    ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
    banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
    He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

    ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
    sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
    His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

    ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
    sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
    He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

    ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
    peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
    The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

    ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
    jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
    The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1082



    Gurbani has described clearly that the One Supreme formless Lord is in fact manifested as Bhagavan Krishna and the lineage of Krishan avtaaras. So it makes perfect sense what is described in Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji, namely that the Vahiguru Gurmantra of the Sikhs is Vaishnava mantra of Harikrishan and his titles and avtaaras. Gurbani is also clear which Name of God which is being chanted: Ram. Gobinda. Gopala. Krishan. Vasudeyva. The sarguna of God is Harikrishna and the lineage of Krishan avtaars of whom Gurbani says, Guruji is the avtaar in this lineage for the Kaliyug. If there are some teachings which parallel Vaishnava Vedanta it is one thing to see brotherhood of similarity. When names of Guru's forms are also Arjun after the charioteer in Bhagavad-Gita, Ramdas, HarGobind, HarKrishan, Gobind, again not one was named for Ali Khan or something Islamic, or even for devas subordinated by Vaishnava tradition. So this is has to be a Vaishnava philosophy. When the God Himself is described as HariKrishan and after Krishan avtaaras, and not merely names but entire unmistakeable descriptions, such as flute, Vrindaban, gopis, blue-black skin, and entire lineage of avtaaras acknowledged. Is Narasingh (man-lion) Krishan avtaara the origin of Singhs? Probably. The salvific Naam Gurmantra is the Vaishnava tradition of the Harikrishna Naam. it's no longer mere similarity anymore. And that is my honest and impartial opinion which I did not even have before I began this study when I recognized kechari mudra being described in Gurbani and even found it mentioned in Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji. You know, I'm not trying to offend anyones beliefs. Certainly I can respect different viewpoints. But honestly I can't come to any other conclusion. The evidence to me is overwhelming.




    ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
    satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|
    In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

    ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
    duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|
    The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

    ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ।
    taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|
    In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

    ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ ।
    kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|
    In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

    ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ ।
    chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|
    The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

    ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।
    chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|
    When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

    ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥
    jahaa tay upajiaa dhiri tahaa samaavai ॥49॥1॥
    The jiv merges again in its origin.
    ~Vaar 1 Pauri 49 of 49 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji



    We've had discussions before about sacrifice of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji to protect Hindu religion.


    ਤਿਲਕ ਜੰਵੂ ਰਾਖਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਡੋ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਕਾ ॥
    He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread which marked a great event in the Iron age.
    ~Bachitra Natak p. 131 Shri Dasam Granth​





    ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
    raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
    The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 923


    I just believe some things can't be overlooked. One has to ask, "Whose tilak mark was Guruji protecting? I think some perspectives have been added to the story.


    ~Bhul chak maaf karni ji
     
  19. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    The light of myriads of crest jewels ​
    is of no consequence,
    And so also is the luster of millions of suns and moons
    of no value,
    As compared to the scintillating light of him in whom

    He dwells,
    And this happens only when countless merits earned
    in past lives fructify together;
    Siva, Sanakadic and Brahma also wish for the company
    of such a noble soul,
    And he obtains the merit of ​
    all the pilgrimages
    In whose forehead shines the light of His sight,

    The sight of His Lotus Feet flaming in his forehead
    Kabit Savai 421
    BHAI GURDAS
     
  20. pk70

    pk70
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  21. pk70

    pk70
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    627
    Respected Bhain ji,
    As we both are aware we are totally on opposite sides in understanding Gurbani and its application. You look at the references as true stories to attach them to other sources and call Gurbani based upon Veda etc; however, contrary to that, I see it was revealed to Guru Nanak ji and references are merely to negate their negative effect on the followers , references and similarities do not prove Gurbani’s origin is Veda etc. especially when Guru ji himself shares with his followers ( Vaar Maagh ki P 27) his experience of a moment with the LORD when he was called upon and what HE Himself assigned him to do-His praise. ( all the prevailed religions and scriptures couldn’t do any thing good to him- Guru) As per Guru ji’s own word that call resulted in Naam promotion. For that reason Guru ji had to criticise incorrect practices of all prevailed religions His addressing almost all prevailed faith/ sects proves that Guru ji is promoting some thing before was not done right way or got corrupted.To clarify ones own message, references are must. Going from Guru Granth Sahib Ji to Bhai Gurdaas’s Vaaran and Dasm Granth doesn’t make any one more convincing provided Gurubani Message is kept intact. When we discuss all this, there is no question of who we believe in as final authority since we are just discussing Gurbani and we need none save for our efforts to understand Gurbani correctly as it is in poetic form, a lot of explanation is needed but Guru Message in totality should be kept in mind so that these illusions can be removed. I am only concerned when Gurbani is used not as per Guru Message but to prove some thing one suddenly thought of after studying various philosophies or faiths. Probably last time again I am going to comment on your recent quote which doesn’t say what you believe it says. Let’s start with your latest one. Then I shall comment on your quote of Bhai Gurdaas ji from other thread which is also misquoted.( Translation is not great, we will strict ourselves to the main idea only)

    ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ
    Ḏẖarṇīḏẖar īs narsingẖ nārā*iṇ. Ḏāṛā agrė paritham ḏẖarā*iṇ. Bāvan rūp kī*ā ṯuḏẖ karṯė sabẖ hī sėṯī hai cẖanga. ||3||
    The Lord is the support of the earth, the man-lion and Primal being. Thou, O Lord, are the Upholder of the earth with Thine for teeth. Thou, O creator, assumed the form of a pigmy and are the sublime Lord of all.
    . Look at the Vaak” seti hai changa, means still only you are sublime of all, that is what Guru ji is preaching here.
    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਰੇਖਿਆ ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ
    Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rėkẖ*i*ā. Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi*ā. Sahas nėṯar mūraṯ hai sahsā ik ḏāṯā sabẖ hai mangā. ||4||
    Thou alone are Ramchand, who has no form and outline. Thou, O flower-gift God, of fascinating sight, has a quoit in Thy hand. Thou has thousands of forms. Thou alone are the Giver and all others are beggars.
    Again here Guru’s surat( attention) is not on His created devtas but on HIM, look at” sehas netr moorat” it is definition of His sargun Sroop. Who are called great, they are beggars in Guru’s views when compared to HIM. What a Sikh learns from it, to contemplate on HIM not to propagate old theories about Devtas because they are beggars at His court. Your translator uses the word” Great Ram Chand” where is a word” great in Guru Vaak”? Imagination rather nostalgia! Alone stands is HIM the GIVER to all, rest are the beggars, period, that is what Guru ji is promoting through these reference.

    ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ
    Bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal anāthah nāthė. Gopī nāth sagal hai sāthė. Bāsuḏėv niranjan ḏāṯė baran na sāka*o guṇ angā. ||5||
    Thou, O Lord, are the lover of Thine devotees and the Patron of the patronless. The Lord of milk-maids is ever with every one. O my beneficent and Immaculate Luminous Lord. I can describe not thine Praise even a bit.
    Again here Guru ji is praising His Sargun existence without letting up praise of His being Infinite. See the words in red, convey the inability to express HIM( inexpressible, infinite), all others are explainable otherwise.
    ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ
    Mukanḏ manohar lakẖmī nārā*iṇ. Ḏaropaṯī lajā nivār uḏẖāraṇ. Kamlākanṯ karahi kanṯūhal anaḏ binoḏī nihsangā. ||6||
    My Beauteous Lord is the Giver of salvation and the spouse of wealth. He, the Lord, is the Saviour of Daropadi, from the clutches of the destroyers of her honour. The Detached Lord of mammon does the wondrous deeds, sports and makes merry.
    Here be advised, saving of Dropati is not credited to Krishana but to the Lord Himself, sticking on a story will not do just what Guru ji is promoting. When Devtas are called beggars what importance they have left before His Mighty power?
    Even in Gurbani Guru ji declares all credit to Him when Guru ji is revered in high esteem.
    ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ
    Amogẖ ḏarsan ājūnī sambẖa*o. Akāl mūraṯ jis kaḏė nāhī kẖa*o. Abẖināsī abigaṯ agocẖar sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯujẖ hī hai lagā. ||7||
    Fruitful is His sight and Immortal His form, which perishes not ever, he is unborn and self-illumined. O my Imperishable, Eternal and Inapprehensible, Lord, Everything is attached to Thee.
    Reread above Vaak, Guru ji directly expressing His being as beyond birth and death. This Shabad is just a praise of the Lord in context of His Sargun Sroop, nothing more than that. Don’t you learn something that all credit and praise are given to the Lord here and why?. Guru ji will keep mentioning all prevailed super beings but suddenly reduces them to be merely expression of His Sargun Sroop and all credits of establishments are given to HIM. Bhian ji, you can keep giving quotes after quotes, it doesn’t mean what you think is promoted by Gurbani because just names there you see are not to verify their big deals but His play and His mighty power to be understood. Purpose of all is to take the follower directly to the source- Lord.
    ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ
    Sarīrang baikunṯẖ kė vāsī. Macẖẖ kacẖẖ kūram āgi*ā a*uṯrāsī. Kėsav cẖalaṯ karahi nirālė kīṯā loṛeh so ho*igā. ||8||
    God, the lover of eminence, abides in Heaven, In His will, the Lord came in the from of the Big Fish and the Tortoise. The Lord of Beauteous hair, does wondrous deeds and what He wishes to do, that alone comes to pass.
    Here again every thing is attributed to His Ordinance, in Gurbani, there is none great but HIM and His establishments as Sargun sroop too. His Nirgun form is put in the first place in JapJi and stamp of His Nirgun Form is repeated through out Guru Granth Sahib Ji; it has a meaning Bhainji, its not repeated without any purpose; it has a big purpose; main message is that seeker should not get confused with His manifestation and should remain out of duality. All Gurbani is extended explanation of Japji( I am glad some friends of mine support that fact too), the more you study Gurbani in context of Japji, the more Guru Message becomes clear. My source is more “ the interpretation of Gurbani within Guru Granth Sahib ji than all other stories told here or there.


    The sarguna of God is Harikrishna and the lineage of Krishan avtaars of whom Gurbani says, Guruji is the avtaar in this lineage for the Kaliyug
    Please don’t get influenced by stories. Guru ji attributed all Names of prevailed so called Devtas/Gods to the LORD. For Guru ji, He is Krishan, Ram, Vasudev etc but the difference between those so called gods and the Lord is that they came and went due to physical body they had to wear and the Nirgun stays because He permeates in His creation but never ever had a body. It is so simple.
    The fact remains veer ji, these aren't new pseudo faiths but a well established sanatan tradition existing within Sikhism from the beginning. You cannot wish away Shri Chand Yogi and sanatan Udasi Panth. You cannot ignore sanatan Nirmala Panth and sanatan Nihang Panth. You cannot ignore the entire message of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which is based on Vedic thought and Upanishads which clear Vaishnava themesn particular breaking down caste barriers, japping Gurmantra to obtain mukti. You cannot ignore the existence of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani with it's almost total allusions to lessons from Hinduism, and even if YOU don't accept it, Akal Takht and majority of the Sikh Panth does including Nirmalas and Nihangs. You don't have to accept but you can't ignore sanatan Naamdhari's either.
    Gurbani has described clearly that the One Supreme formless Lord is in fact manifested as Bhagavan Krishna and the lineage of Krishan avtaaras. So it makes perfect sense what is described in Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji, namely that the Vahiguru Gurmantra of the Sikhs is Vaishnava mantra of Harikrishan and his titles and avtaaras
    My respected Bhain ji, when you admit HE manifest in avtaras, how could you deny we are also His manifestation. We agree on His both forms, Sargun and Nirgun, interestingly we long for His Nirgun Form only. Guru ji pines for that Nirgun Lord( SGGS 877) asking others to help to see Him with in, then points out barrier between that Nirgun Sroop and us. Why we need this confusion over those who are declared not helpful compared to Gurbani in pursuit of Realizing HIM? Why seekers need to learn about Vedas etc. Namjap ji question” can some one tell in simple words about Him, what to do and how to realize” Why he is asking that? It doesn’t mean he doesn’t know about Nirgun form and sargun form or Gurbani. What triggers him to question that? Answer lies in our academic debates which is nothing but drums of ignorance.
    Also quote of H K Khalsa frm understanding
    Bhain ji lets see what Bhai Sahib Gurdaas ji is saying
    ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ

    satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|
    In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.
    Here as Guru ji did, Bhai sahib is commenting on what is going on before Guru
    Nanak, no need to sticking to any of these reference, bear with me, why, I shall let you know in the end.
    ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ
    duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|
    The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.
    Again about the next story
    ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ
    taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|
    In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.
    Another story
    ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ
    kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|
    In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.
    Here note it down,so called Kalyug is purified by the grace of the Lord as through Nanak HE got His NAME” GOBIND” be contemplated. If we go by your approach, Gobind means Krishan, as you are aware Guru ji promoted Lord’s name not
    Krishna’s name; obviously Bhai Sahib ji is saying that He the Creator has made people remember Him through Guru Nanak. Now reread last Vaak.
    ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ
    chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|
    The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.
    ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ
    chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|
    When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

    ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ੪੯
    What miracle happened in so called bad times "Kalyug"( which is not in fact), all letters of yuga” vava, haha, gagga and rara are made together by Guru Nanak and it has become” Wahaguru” the real name of the Lord. So from where it came eventually merged in it. Bhai Sahib ji is promoting Guru ji’s NAAM SIMRAN of HIM not others as you see. Here also it becomes very clear why we differ so strongly. Any way you are entitled to your views as I do but I see no reconciliation in context of these quotes.

    ਜਹਾ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਵੈ ੪੯
    jahaa tay upajiaa dhiri tahaa samaavai
    491
    The jiv merges again in its origin.
    ~Vaar 1 Pauri 49 of 49 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji

    NOTE Guru Teg Bahadar Ji's sacrfice is not limited to Hindu Janeo protection as many propagate, jealousy of Ram Rai House and other meenas,undertone opposition by funatic Hinduas and Muslims along with extremely funatic approach of Empror Aurangzeb also contributed to Guru ji's scarifice. Persian references reveal how Guru ji was being portrayed as a dangerous one by these jealous opposition, amazingly contrary to Guru ji Hymns and Teachings and way of living. So it is better not to use this great scarifice of Guru ji to prove any other myths. Thanks for sharing your views.
     
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