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Guru Arjan as Incarnation of Waheguru?

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by Ishna, Jul 9, 2011.

  1. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Gurfateh

    Some tuks from this shabad were sung at the Gurdwara I attend recently. I was suprised by the translation on the projector screen. I might be asking about something which is far beyond my comprehension at this point in my growth but thought I'd ask since there is some talk of avatars on another thread at the moment.

    The shabad starts on Ang 1048. The parts I'm curious about are in green. Is it really saying Guru Arjan Dev Ji is an incarnation of Waheguru?

    ਜੋਤਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹਾਯਉ
    Joṯ rūp har āp gurū Nānak kahā▫ya▫o.
    The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.

    ਤਾ ਤੇ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਭਯਉ ਤਤ ਸਿਉ ਤਤੁ ਮਿਲਾਯਉ
    Ŧā ṯe angaḏ bẖa▫ya▫o ṯaṯ si▫o ṯaṯ milā▫ya▫o.
    From Him, came Guru Angad; His essence was absorbed into the essence.

    ਅੰਗਦਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਅਮਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਥਿਰੁ ਕੀਅਉ
    Angaḏ kirpā ḏẖār amar saṯgur thir kī▫a▫o.
    Guru Angad showed His Mercy, and established Amar Daas as the True Guru.

    ਅਮਰਦਾਸਿ ਅਮਰਤੁ ਛਤ੍ਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਹਿ ਦੀਅਉ
    Amarḏās amraṯ cẖẖaṯar gur rāmėh ḏī▫a▫o.
    Guru Amar Daas blessed Guru Raam Daas with the umbrella of immortality.

    ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਕਹਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਯਣ
    Gur Rāmḏās ḏarsan paras kahi mathurā amriṯ ba▫yaṇ.
    So speaks Mat'huraa: gazing upon the Blessed Vision, the Darshan of Guru Raam Daas, His speech became as sweet as nectar.

    ਮੂਰਤਿ ਪੰਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਿਖਹੁ ਨਯਣ ॥੧॥
    Mūraṯ pancẖ parmāṇ purakẖ gur arjun pikẖahu na▫yaṇ. ||1||
    With your eyes, see the certified Primal Person, Guru Arjun, the Fifth Manifestation of the Guru. ||1||

    ਸਤਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਉਰਿ
    Saṯ rūp saṯ nām saṯ sanṯokẖ ḏẖari▫o ur.
    He is the Embodiment of Truth; He has enshrined the True Name, Sat Naam, Truth and contentment within His heart.

    ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਲਿਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਅਛਰੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਧੁਰਿ
    Āḏ purakẖ parṯakẖ likẖ▫ya▫o acẖẖar masṯak ḏẖur.
    From the very beginning, the Primal Being has written this destiny upon His forehead.

    ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਗਮਗੈ ਤੇਜੁ ਭੂਅ ਮੰਡਲਿ ਛਾਯਉ
    Pargat joṯ jagmagai ṯej bẖū▫a mandal cẖẖā▫ya▫o.
    His Divine Light shines forth, dazzling and radiant; His Glorious Grandeur pervades the realms of the world.

    ਪਾਰਸੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਪਰਸੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਗੁਰਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਹਾਯਉ
    Pāras paras paras paras gur gurū kahā▫ya▫o.
    Meeting the Guru, touching the Philosopher's Stone, He was acclaimed as Guru.

    ਭਨਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਦਾ ਥਿਰੁ ਲਾਇ ਚਿਤੁ ਸਨਮੁਖ ਰਹਹੁ
    Bẖan mathurā mūraṯ saḏā thir lā▫e cẖiṯ sanmukẖ rahhu.
    So speaks Mat'huraa: I constantly focus my consciousness on Him; as sunmukh, I look to Him.

    ਕਲਜੁਗਿ ਜਹਾਜੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਗਲ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਟਿ ਲਗਿ ਬਿਤਰਹੁ ॥੨॥
    Kaljug jahāj arjun gurū sagal sarisat lag biṯrahu. ||2||
    In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, Guru Arjun is the Boat; attached to him, the entire universe is safely carried across. ||2||

    ਤਿਹ ਜਨ ਜਾਚਹੁ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਪਰ ਜਾਨੀਅਤੁ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਰਯਨਿ ਬਾਸੁ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਹਿਤੁ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਉ
    Ŧih jan jācẖahu jagṯar par jānī▫aṯ bāsur ra▫yan bās jā ko hiṯ nām si▫o.
    I beg from that humble being who is known all over the world, who lives in, and loves the Name, night and day.

    ਪਰਮ ਅਤੀਤੁ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰੰਗ੍ਯ੍ਯੌ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਪੈ ਦੇਖੀਅਤੁ ਧਾਮ ਸਿਉ
    Param aṯīṯ parmesur kai rang rang▫y▫ou bāsnā ṯe bāhar pai ḏekẖī▫aṯ ḏẖām si▫o.
    He is supremely unattached, and imbued with the Love of the Transcendent Lord; he is free of desire, but he lives as a family man.

    ਅਪਰ ਪਰੰਪਰ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੁ ਲਾਗ੍ਯ੍ਯੌ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਰਸੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਉਰੈ ਕਾਮ ਸਿਉ
    Apar parampar purakẖ si▫o parem lāg▫y▫ou bin bẖagvanṯ ras nāhī a▫urai kām si▫o.
    He is dedicated to the Love of the Infinite, Limitless Primal Lord God; he has no concerns for any other pleasure, except for the Lord God.

    ਮਥੁਰਾ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਮਯ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਗੁਰੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੈ ਹੇਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਰਹਿਓ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਾਮ ਸਿਉ ॥੩॥
    Mathurā ko parabẖ sarab ma▫y arjun gur bẖagaṯ kai heṯ pā▫e rahi▫o mil rām si▫o. ||3||
    Guru Arjun is the All-pervading Lord God of Mat'huraa. Devoted to His Worship, he remains attached to the Lord's Feet. ||3|| ਅੰਤੁ ਪਾਵਤ ਦੇਵ ਸਬੈ ਮੁਨਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਮਹਾ ਸਿਵ ਜੋਗ ਕਰੀ
    Anṯ na pāvaṯ ḏev sabai mun inḏar mahā siv jog karī.
    All the gods, silent sages, Indra, Shiva and Yogis have not found the Lord's limits -

    ਫੁਨਿ ਬੇਦ ਬਿਰੰਚਿ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਪੁ ਛਾਡ੍ਯ੍ਯਿਉ ਏਕ ਘਰੀ
    Fun beḏ birancẖ bicẖār rahi▫o har jāp na cẖẖādi▫ya▫o ek gẖarī.
    not even Brahma who contemplates the Vedas. I shall not give up meditating on the Lord, even for an instant.

    ਮਥੁਰਾ ਜਨ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦੀਨ ਦਯਾਲੁ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਟਿ ਨਿਹਾਲੁ ਕਰੀ
    Mathurā jan ko parabẖ ḏīn ḏa▫yāl hai sangaṯ sarisat nihāl karī.
    The God of Mat'huraa is Merciful to the meek; He blesses and uplifts the Sangats throughout the Universe.

    ਰਾਮਦਾਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਧਰੀ ॥੪॥
    Rāmḏās gurū jag ṯāran ka▫o gur joṯ arjun māhi ḏẖarī. ||4||
    Guru Raam Daas, to save the world, enshrined the Guru's Light into Guru Arjun. ||4||

    ਜਗ ਅਉਰੁ ਯਾਹਿ ਮਹਾ ਤਮ ਮੈ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਉਜਾਗਰੁ ਆਨਿ ਕੀਅਉ
    Jag a▫or na yāhi mahā ṯam mai avṯār ujāgar ān kī▫a▫o.
    In the great darkness of this world, the Lord revealed Himself, incarnated as Guru Arjun.

    ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਦੁਖ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਦੂਰਿ ਗਏ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੀਅਉ
    Ŧin ke ḏukẖ kotik ḏūr ga▫e mathurā jinĥ amriṯ nām pī▫a▫o.
    Millions of pains are taken away, from those who drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, says Mat'huraa.

    ਇਹ ਪਧਤਿ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਚੂਕਹਿ ਰੇ ਮਨ ਭੇਦੁ ਬਿਭੇਦੁ ਜਾਨ ਬੀਅਉ
    Ih paḏẖaṯ ṯe maṯ cẖūkėh re man bẖeḏ bibẖed na jān bī▫a▫o.
    O mortal being, do not leave this path; do not think that there is any difference between God and Guru.

    ਪਰਤਛਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਲੀਅਉ ॥੫॥
    Parṯacẖẖ riḏai gur arjun kai har pūran barahm nivās lī▫a▫o. ||5||
    The Perfect Lord God has manifested Himself; He dwells in the heart of Guru Arjun. ||5||

    ਜਬ ਲਉ ਨਹੀ ਭਾਗ ਲਿਲਾਰ ਉਦੈ ਤਬ ਲਉ ਭ੍ਰਮਤੇ ਫਿਰਤੇ ਬਹੁ ਧਾਯਉ
    Jab la▫o nahī bẖāg lilār uḏai ṯab la▫o bẖaramṯe firṯe baho ḏẖā▫ya▫o.
    As long as the destiny written upon my forehead was not activated, I wandered around lost, running in all directions.

    ਕਲਿ ਘੋਰ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ ਮੈ ਬੂਡਤ ਥੇ ਕਬਹੂ ਮਿਟਿ ਹੈ ਨਹੀ ਰੇ ਪਛੁਤਾਯਉ
    Kal gẖor samuḏar mai būdaṯ the kabhū mit hai nahī re pacẖẖoṯā▫ya▫o.
    I was drowning in the horrible world-ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, and my remorse would never have ended.

    ਤਤੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ਯਹੈ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਬਨਾਯਉ
    Ŧaṯ bicẖār yahai mathurā jag ṯāran ka▫o avṯār banā▫ya▫o.
    O Mat'huraa, consider this essential truth: to save the world, the Lord incarnated Himself.

    ਜਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਦੇਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਫਿਰਿ ਸੰਕਟ ਜੋਨਿ ਗਰਭ ਆਯਉ ॥੬॥
    Jap▫ya▫o jinĥ arjun ḏev gurū fir sankat jon garabẖ na ā▫ya▫o. ||6||
    Whoever meditates on Guru Arjun Dayv, shall not have to pass through the painful womb of reincarnation ever again. ||6||

    ਕਲਿ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ ਭਏ ਰੂਪ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਉਧਾਰਨੁ
    Kal samuḏar bẖa▫e rūp pargat har nām uḏẖāran.
    In the ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name has been revealed in the Form of Guru Arjun, to save the world.

    ਬਸਹਿ ਸੰਤ ਜਿਸੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਦੁਖ ਦਾਰਿਦ੍ਰ ਨਿਵਾਰਨੁ
    Basėh sanṯ jis riḏai ḏukẖ ḏariḏar nivāran.
    Pain and poverty are taken away from that person, within whose heart the Saint abides.

    ਨਿਰਮਲ ਭੇਖ ਅਪਾਰ ਤਾਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਕੋਈ
    Nirmal bẖekẖ apār ṯās bin avar na ko▫ī.
    He is the Pure, Immaculate Form of the Infinite Lord; except for Him, there is no other at all.

    ਮਨ ਬਚ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਣਿਅਉ ਭਯਉ ਤਿਹ ਸਮਸਰਿ ਸੋਈ
    Man bacẖ jin jāṇi▫a▫o bẖa▫ya▫o ṯih samsar so▫ī.
    Whoever knows Him in thought, word and deed, becomes just like Him.

    ਧਰਨਿ ਗਗਨ ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪੀ ਰਹਿਓ ਭਰਿ
    Ḏẖaran gagan nav kẖand mėh joṯ savrūpī rahi▫o bẖar.
    He is totally pervading the earth, the sky and the nine regions of the planet. He is the Embodiment of the Light of God.

    ਭਨਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਰਤਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਹਰਿ ॥੭॥੧੯॥
    Bẖan mathurā kacẖẖ bẖeḏ nahī gur arjun parṯakẖ▫y har. ||7||19||
    So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||
     
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  3. BhagatSingh

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    Ishna ji
    Yes the Gurmukhi suggests that it is saying that Guru Arjan Dev ji is the incarnation of God/God himself. Mathura uses the word Avtar for Guru Arjan. Avtars are incarnations.

    Now one person might reject this literal translation and advise to take it metaphorically like some sort of poetic praise. The other will take it word for word. (we will hear from more people soon) All perspectives point to towards the truth.

    My suggestion would be to go beyond the words and try to feel what the word "incarnation" and the whole shabad is referring to. Meditate on the shabad.

    Now, what other words can you use for that? (avoid thinking about that, post the words that immediately come through from meditation, and if no words arise that is fine too)
     
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  4. spnadmin

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    This subject comes up often enough. The shabad in question is by the poet KALL (Kahl), and is part of the granth that includes shabads by the Bhatts. These were Hindu poets who lived in the times and locale of the gurusahiban. They were monotheists. Their praise of the Gurus includes references to Hindu ideas and devtas...because they were Hindus. The common confusion is to conclude that Guru Arjan Dev is somehow acceding to Hindu ideas like avatars because he included their compositions in the Adi Granth. Because of this mental confusion, some of us veer in the direction of one of two mistaken ideas: 1) that Sikhism is blended with sanatan or Hinduism; or conversely, 2) that these shabads should be removed because they are impure. The former argument widely promoted in Sikhi, and reinforced in the writing of McLeod. The latter argument put forward by the early Panj Khalsa Diwan.

    It is interesting to me that the only time the word avatar is used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is in the compositions of the Bhatts. Or, in other words, in the Bhatt Bani.

    This is my humble offering to the discussion. I await the moments when either problem 1 or problem 2 or both are pressed upon us in the thread. welcomekaur Without a doubt it will occur.
     
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  5. spnadmin

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    Background:


    Source: http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bhatts

    Note: The Bhatt, BAL, it is thought by some may be the one and same KAL, who is speaking in the shabad.
     
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  6. Ishna

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    Perhaps it would help me if I was to research what exactly a Hindu avtar is.

    Taking the entire shabad into consideration makes a couple of tuks stand out to me which I think help return the reader to the Sikh mindset. I would say they are:

    line 1 stanza 2 (sorry I don't know the right term for the different sections)
    He is the Embodiment of Truth; He has enshrined the True Name, Sat Naam, Truth and contentment within His heart.

    Line 3 stanza 5
    O mortal being, do not leave this path; do not think that there is any difference between God and Guru.

    And all of stanza 7.

    When I read this as a Sikh, with no real understanding of Hinduism, and knowing that Waheguru is Ajooni (not born), I gather from the shabad that Guru Arjun is a shining example of a human at the height of God Realisation, who possesses all the qualities of God which you realize by attuning to the Naam. This is not God coming down into one little person, but one little person opening up into God.

    Stanza 7 especially reminds me of Sachkhand as in japji Sahib. The height of human consciousness and spiritual evolution is when you realize you are God looking upon the creation. That's where Guru Arjan was at, which is why Mathura says he is God incarnated.

    That's my interpretation.
     
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  7. Ishna

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    Thanks Spnadmin ji for the background on the Bhatts!
     
  8. spnadmin

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    Ishna ji

    I believe that you also put the scanner on exactly why Guru Arjan Dev decided to include these bani in the Adi Granth: the message as he read it is consistent with the message of Guru Nanak.

    For me the important reminder is always that Akaal does not incarnate and has no avatars.
     
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  9. prakash.s.bagga

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    ISNA Ji,
    I feel that the meaning of the word AVTAARu in the quoted Sabad can be taken as a reference to Guru Arjanu ji showing a trait or typical character to a marked degree
    of Prabhu Creator and this is more clarified with the mentioning of Pratakh Hari.
    This is my personal thinking .
    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
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  10. BhagatSingh

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    Ishna ji,
    When one goes from non-dual to dual, these sorts of "differences" arise.

    How can Waheguru be
    unborn when he is present everywhere, He is everything we perceive and our ability to perceive, and present even in a newly born child, when he is the newly born?
    Similarly,
    How can Waheguru be born when he is present everywhere, He is everything we perceive and our ability to perceive, and present even in a newly born child, when he is the newly born?

    So is he unborn or born at this point?

    Same could be asked of all his other traits.
    Is he a protector or a destroyer? Is he loving or unloving?
    Does he incarnate or not? etc etc the list is endless...

    Meditating on Waheguru floods the empty glasses of questions. The questions and their answers become unimportant. In fact, if you look closely (ie meditate) the question is realized to be the answer.

    Question: So is he unborn or born?
    Answer: He is unborn and born.

    Both point towards the Truth. One must step beyond the duality to see it. Here again I stress how meditation is important.


    pp250


    PS "Avtar" and similar words are used by other authors in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as well. Ishna ji maybe you should have a look at those as you look at this shabad.

    Do a search of " incarnate" (<space> then incarnate) on srigranth.org
     
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  11. prakash.s.bagga

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    There is very important point to understand in the message given by Bhagat Singh ji.
    and that point is "Unborn and Born"
    Definitely there is something that takes birth and there is other thing that does not take birth and this thing is Ajoonee.
    These two are different things not like that the same thing is unborned and Borned as well.
    e should try to grasp this point from the understanding of Gurbaani and the understanding of this is again related to the concept of GuRU and GuR.

    Prakash.s.bagga
     
  12. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    We need to stay on the topic of the thread. Is the shabad suggesting that Nanak 4 is an "incarnation" of Waheguru. Thanks.
     
  13. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    There is specific quote from Gurbaani which is as under

    "Meree Meree Dhari Bandhani Bandheya
    Naraki Suragi Avtaar Mayaa Dhandiyaa" pp761 SGGS

    We should therefore understand the reference meaning of the word Avtaar in view of above message.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  14. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Prakash ji, Please understand that I am not contradicting you as much as I am asking that the conversation adhere to the original questions. It is a slippery slope once we begin to move in the direction of all the other meanings of "incarnation" relative to ajooni, relative to born/unborn, relative to realized and unrealized forms, relative to duality. Those are different topics, a different discussion. Threads wander here and there and everywhere. Then they have to be closed and/or split anyway. Now I am prepared to do that today if I must.

    Was Guru Arjan Dev an incarnation of Waheguru? If I wanted to throw this thread off course, all I have to do is say that Waheguru never appears in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So Guru Arjan Dev couldn't be an incarnation therefore. At that point, SPN can have a long argument about that which we have had so many times before. Of course I am kidding by making this suggestion, but trying to make a point.

    Your last question is a good one as long as we stay on topic.

    Thanks.
     
  15. Adi Nanaki

    Adi Nanaki
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    Guru Arjan is often referred to as Partuk Har--God incarnate, at the Golden Temple and elsewhere. Yet the translation of this shabad is not always correct. For instance, in the last line, where it claims God and Guru Arjan have no difference, I believe it is saying that there are no secrets between God and Guru Arjan.

    God is in everyone's heart, in all of Creation. This is a non issue.

    Blessings
     
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  16. aristotle

    aristotle
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    The basic fabric of the Bani composed by Bhatts has been widely misunderstood, even by some of the well-informed Sikhs. In Sikhism, the word is the Guru, and manifestation of the Lord. The Ten human Gurus are considered the 'humanization' of the word. When the Bhatts praise the Gurus as 'Avatars' or tell us to meditate on them, it is not in the Hindu sense of the word, but as the manifestation of Gurbani. I ask you, how would you meditate on any Guru, we have no authentic picture, no photograph, not even a graphic description of how the Gurus looked like. The only way we can meditate on the Gurus is through Gurbani, by reading and practising the same, and by bringing into our lives the virtues the Gurus themselves obeyed throughout their lives.
    The idea of ousting the Bani of the Bhatts and Bhagats from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is very ridiculous and disgusting. The Gurus themselves included these Banis in the 'Birs' of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, and they are according to the Sikh code of conduct. If any Sanatani or Hindu tries to put any blemish on these Banis, he should be strongly dealt with. Instead, we should put more stress on interpreting these Banis according to Gurmat and rectifying the failures of the earlier translations(Professor Sahib Singh has attempted a sincere translation of the Banis of the Bhatts and Bhagats, any person having any doubt about these Banis may refer to the same). That would be of more help to Sikhism, rather than a long stretched blame game.
     
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  17. prakash.s.bagga

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    It would be important to understand that the reference of the word "Avtaar" in the Shabad is GuRu not GuRU.Since we are writing in English language so we are misled in the understanding of the reference meanings of the words GuRu and GuRU.
    Once we understand this the meaning of the word Avtaar would become more clear.

    If we take the reference the word GuRU or WAHi GuRU .the meaning of the Avtaar is certainly going to bedifferent than the reference word GuRu.

    We should therfore look for the appropriate meaning of Avtaar with reference to GuRu.

    For understanding the difference in GuRu and GuRu one may look at Gurmukhi version of SGGS.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  18. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    ARISTOTLE Ji,
    I fully agree with your message.As a matter of fact there is crux of knowledge of the whole Gurbaani hidden in the messages of Baans of Bhatts.Therefore there is need to understand this Baani as suggested by you,We are grossly mistaken when we consider the Baanis of Bhatts merely as praise of GuRU s in Human form.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
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  19. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Gurmatt places absolutely no importance on the DEH..the HUMAN BODY.
    There is NO HISTORY....None of the GURUS showed the least interest in wriiting down "History"..dates of birth, marriage, parents names brothers sisters etc etc...because DEH is of no value..except to "TRANSFER" GURBANI..which is the REAL GURU for all time.

    2. SEE how a Fictitious Bhai bala was used to write the "Janamsakhi" of Guru nanak ji...a book proven fake and written in the 1700's....long after Guru nanak ji had passed on.
    IF it is to be believed that Guur ANGAD JI made such an "effort" to call in Bhai bala and ask him to record the Janamsakhi details about Guru nanak ji....why DIDNT Guru Amardass Ji..or the succeeding GURUS make any effort to write down the JANAMSAKHIS of the preceeding GURUS ?? Guru Amardass ji didnt write a single word about the life of Guru Angad Ji..Nor did Guru ramdass Ji bother to record the life details of Guru Amardass Ji...Guur Arjun Ji wrote such a HUGE GRANTH..but didnt write a SINGLE WORD about the LIFE of Guru ramdass Ji...or his family........BUT the GURBANI was all faithfully RECORDED.

    3. The FAKE Bhai Bala Janamslakhi, ,the Gurbilas Patshhai Chhevin, Gurbialas Patshhai Dasveen, Bachittra Natak etc etc which ALL CONCENTRATE ON "history" rather than GURBANI were all written by OTHERS than the GURUS. Bhai Gurdass Ji who almost certainly KNEW all the details DID NOT WRITE much "history"..and perhaps its becasue of the TINY AMOUNTS of "history" that his Vaars were REJECTED for inclusion into SGGS by Guru Arjun Ji and instead bestowed an honour that his vaars are "recommended reading" to improve oens understanding of Gurbani in SGGS.

    3. SIKH HISTORY...has to pass the "GURBANI TOUCHSTONE"...in order to get accpeted. IF nay so called historical detail FAILS the Gurbani TEST..its fake/ unreliable...as the One and ONLY totally RELIABLE is GURBANI.

    ON this Basis..the Avtaars..concept as usually shown in Hinduism doesnt APPLY to the Sikh Gurus. The SIKH GURUS are "Waheguru"..in so far as they brought down GURBANI..and in this same context SGGS is THE WORD...and The WORD is Waheguru in the tangible way we humans can "conceptualise" God/Creator/Allah/Raam/Rahim whatever. About the Only persons interested in perpetuating the HUMAN DEH..as avtaar..sant..saadh..mahapurash//Baba Ji..Sri 1008 etc etc are those who want THEIR OWN BODIES to be worshipped by other..."lesser humans"...and this has been happening since time immemorial....some humans are worshipped..some are worshippable..some worship......the BHATTS coming form a Hindu background "see" the Guru human as avtaaar.
     
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  20. BhagatSingh

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    Gyani ji,
    I think the body (any body) is pretty darn important if it gets you to Gurmat/Gurbani. ;)
     
  21. prakash.s.bagga

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    If we look at the Dictionary meanings of the word Incarnation we get the following

    1.....Embdiment in flesh esp Human

    2....A person showing a trait ortypical character to a marked degree

    We are taking the meaning of the word Avtaar as mentioned at...no 1
    whereas as per concept of Gurbaani philosophy the meaning at..No 2 seems to be more appropriate.

    I feel it would unreasonable to say that since Bhatts had Hindu Background so they used this word Avtaar to mean as mentioned at No..1.
    If bacground is critical in conveying the messages as given in Gurbaani then we should be aware of the background of everyones thru whom the whole Baani is revealed,In fact any Baani which is a part of Dhurki Baani becomes independent of the Background and therefore we are required to know the appropriate meanings of the words conformng to the philosophy of Gurbaani.

    Prakash.s.Bagga
     

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