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Learn Punjabi Gurmukhi script variant called Punjabi script or?

Discussion in 'Language, Arts & Culture' started by johnyork, Feb 9, 2013.

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  1. johnyork

    johnyork
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    When some people from Punjab, India say they write in Punjabi and I ask them if they write in Gurmukhi and they say, "no, I write in Punjabi". What exactly are they saying? I ask them if it was the same as Gurmukhi and they said no. They said the spelling is different. When I have seen the writing, it looks like Gurmukhi, but with (Hindi script/Devanagari) characteristics. However, it was definitely not Devanagari. It looks like some kind of "Punjabi shorthand" if you will. So if it is not Gurmukhi script, then what do you call the name of the script they are using to write Punjabi language?

    Note: It is not Shahmukhi. It looks like Gurmukhi to me, but I was told that it was not called Gurmukhi.
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    See if you can find an example, maybe not exact but close, to describe what you have seen. http://www.{url not allowed}/Gurmukhi-Fonts

    These are all fonts -- print scripts -- but some are made to look like handwritten scripts. The possibilities are endless.

    There is also hand-written Gurmukhi script just as in any language. These will never be exactly like a font/print version and differ from one person to another. Naturally. See my avatar for an example of hand-written script of Guru Sahib.

    Without a picture/visual example it is impossible to have a clear discussion
     
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    #2 spnadmin, Feb 9, 2013
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  4. spnadmin

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    p/s Punjabi script/fonts are a misnomer for Gurmukhi script/fonts. People who said that are just being casual or relaxed in their speech. Punjabi is language: Gurmukhi is script. When you download fonts or use an international language converter you only have a choice of "Gurmukhi" .... "Punjabi" is never listed separately. If you search for "Punjabi" fonts, you get "Gurmukhi" fonts.
     
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    #3 spnadmin, Feb 9, 2013
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  5. Chaan Pardesi

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    To the Punjabi of West Punjab writing in Punjabi may well mean writing in Punjabi using Shamukhi scrpt.

    To many Hindus of the eastern Punjab writing in Punjabi may well mean using the dev nagri script,which is the hindi lettering.

    To the Sikhs, writing in Punjabi will mean using the Gurmukhi script.

    Sadly the Punjabi language suffered the heinous crimanality of religious intolerance and bigotory, that the written language was divided between three scripts.

    In pre 1947, Punjabi, writing in official Punjabi meant using farsi and shahmukhi letterings.

    Yes, it has confused many people.
     
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  6. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Quite Normal...If one asks an ordinary Englishman..whats he writing..He will reply ENGLISH..no one will say..No I am writing ROMANISED..whereas TECHNICALLY the ABC's of "ENGLISH" are called ROMAN SCRIPT. Same goes for PUNJABI...(Gurmukhi script)..People usually mention the LANGUAGE and not the script.

    Some languages DONT have SCRIPTS..our National language MALAY is one such langauge..the Official version is written in ABC..and ehnce called ROMANISED..whereas the Traditionals use JAWI whcih like URDU is a specialised script adapted by Malays...and its based on Arabic script. Go to India and people will ask you..Can YOU WRITE HINDI ?? and the answer is YES/NO..whatever..BUT very few will go tech and say NO I dont write HINDI..i write DEVNAGREE..???? How about Sanskrit...Bengali..Marathi..Pothoharee..Majhi..etc etc..

    Is ITALIAN written in "Italian" or in LATIN ?? Greeks write in GREEK ?? Russians ?? Chinese...some do and others dont..interesting subject...
     
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  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    BTW..there are FONTS named PUNJABI too...many available for download free..and of course when you see them..they are indeed GURMUKHI...
     
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  8. johnyork

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    I am looking for the name of the script. I am not talking about fonts. The people I have spoken with about this are writing with a pen or pencil on a piece of paper. When I ask them what they write in, they say "Punjabi". When I say is that "Gurmukhi", they are very adamant that it is not the same as "Gurmukhi". There are times when they almost appear to be thinking of Gurmukhi as a dialect. I explained to them that Gurmukhi is a script, not a language. They don't budge. They insist they write in "Punjabi".

    They are clearly using the Gurmukhi alphabet ੳਅੲ...

    However, here are some things I noticed that were different.

    They appear to use bindis (when spelling the words on paper by hand) on words that normally would not contain bindis. The sihari ਿ and bihari ੀ are written the way they are written in Devanagari (Hindi script). When letters in Gurmukhi and Devanagari are similar, they draw them the same as Devanagari. It looks like someone who wrote in Devanagari that was later taught to write in Gurmukhi, but could not give up the Devanagari letters. It is not Devanagari though (as far as complete words) and it is not Shahmukhi (Or Urdu or Farsi or any Arabic variant of any kind). It is a variant of Gurmukhi script and the only name they are giving me is "Punjabi" no matter how many times I ask them. The mere fact I am inquiring with them about it seems to upset them, so I don't want to inquire with them about this any further. This is why I came here, in hopes of finding the answer on my own without disturbing them any further.
     
  9. johnyork

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    I will use the word ਟਿਊਸ਼ਨ as an example to better explain.

    ਟਿਊਸ਼ਨ <= Gurmukhi script
    टिਊਸ਼ਨ <= "Punjabi" script?

    As you can see from this example, the ਸਿਹਾਰੀ and the ਟੈਂਕਾ in the Gurmukhi script are the Guru Angad Dev Ji standardized Gurmukhi characters we expect to see. The script being referred to as "Punjabi" has what I would consider "Devanagari" characters as part of the word.
     
  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    I have been teaching Punjabi/Gurmukhi/Gurbani for 50 years and i cant get what you mean..maybe i am too slow ?? The word you pasted is an ENGLISH word in Gurmukhi script..and is now also a very common PUNJABI WORD as it ha s been assimilated into Punjabi..
     
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  11. Ishna

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    ... what English word is that?? o_O
     
  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    tuition....
     
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  13. johnyork

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    No problem, I can use a non-English word example.

    ਟਿਕਾਉਣਾ <= Gurmukhi script
    टिਕਾਉਣਾ <= "Punjabi" script

    In this example also, you can see the ਸਿਹਾਰੀ and the ਟੈਂਕਾ in the Gurmukhi script are the Guru Angad Dev Ji standardized Gurmukhi characters we expect to see. The script being referred to as "Punjabi" has what I would consider "Devanagari" characters as part of the word.
     
  14. spnadmin

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    Admin note:

    Thanks, I think we are getting closer to the heart of the problem. It would be great if you could find a sample of some handwriting scan it and upload as an attachment.

    I think also we have 2 different problems built into your question, johnyork ji. One question: why are some punjabis referring to their script as "Punjabi?" Second question: Why do they insist, or seem to become bewildered, when you ask them to explain why it is not Gurmukhi/why they say it is Punjabi?

    It is really impossible to reply to either question without a pictorial example.
     
    #13 spnadmin, Feb 10, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  15. Chaan Pardesi

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    I think this Mr Johnny is confused about the letters and script in the word tution .There is no dev nagri script in any of the letters.It is Gurmukhi in both.


    ਟਿਕਾਉਣਾ <= Gurmukhi script----Is what is termed Punjabi by mostly sikhs and in eastern punjab
    टिਕਾਉਣਾ <= "Punjabi" script-- is also what is termed Punjabi by mostly sikhs and in eastern punjab



    I dont understand at all what he is trying to say, unless he is trying to differentiate between the two-there is no difference in both are in Gurmukhi and both are Punjabi.
     
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  16. spnadmin

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    I think johnyork is trying to get to the bottom of what seems to be a contradiction in how some people describe their script. Someone earlier gave the example and I will paraphrase: If someone were to see me writing a note, and then asked me: What script are you using? I would probably say English. That would be wrong because I should say "romanized alphabet." Then when questioned I might become bewildered why my answer was not accepted. That is a realistic scenario.

    There is a bit more to what johnyork is saying. It seems he is also observing mixed Devanagri/Gurmukhi script. We really need to see an example to figure all this out. I may have to close this thread if it goes in circles . We do need an example
     
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  17. johnyork

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    ਟਿਕਾਉਣਾ <= Gurmukhi script
    टिਕਾਉਣਾ <= "Punjabi" script

    This is my example. Look at the first 2 characters of the word ਟਿਕਾਉਣਾ (tikauna). The first 2 characters are ਸਿਹਾਰੀ (ਿ) (the vowel sihari) and ਟੈਂਕਾ (the consonant ਟ [tainka]) and you can see that (ਟਿ) is valid Gurmukhi (in the Gurmukhi example). Then, look at the first 2 characters (टि) in the "Punjabi" script example of the word (tikauna). The "Punjabi" example clearly contains "devanagari" (or Hindi script characters). It (the Punjabi example) contains a mixture of 2 writing systems and this is what they call "Punjabi" script.

    Gurmukhi script (consonants,vowels,other marks) is Gurmukhi no matter what font you use. The difference is not a font. Font is style. A script (in my wording) is the alphabet used for writing that language.
     
  18. spnadmin

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    Johnyork ji

    I do not see any difference at all in the examples and have Zoomed to 5x actual size just to be sure it is not my eyesight. Please let me know by pm when you are ready to upload an attachment of a hand-written example, and I will open the thread. We may be getting caught up in semantics. For now the thread is closed.

    Based on what we know we can safely say that there is no Punjabi variant of Gurmukhi script.
     
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  19. spnadmin

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    Just for comparison purposes here is the word tuition in devanagri

    विशेष-वर्ग

    Here are the Gurmukhi/Punjabi examples as given

    ਟਿਊਸ਼ਨ <= Gurmukhi script
    टिਊਸ਼ਨ <= "Punjabi" script?


    There is a difference in the shiharee, as you pointed out in a pm: The "Gurmukhi script" version closes the shiharee on the line. Both the devanagri and so-called "Punjabi script" leave the top open. How can we tell if this is no more significant than a font variation, as Gurmukhi fonts do differ very slightly in the details? The closing of the top of the shiharee would be even more pronounced in handwriting samples. See my earlier posts.
     
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    #18 spnadmin, Feb 11, 2013
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  20. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    johnny may look at this Abstract...
    In these Attachments Learned IT Scholars and linguistic experts look into Handwritten Gurmukhi script and analyse it to build OCR programmes...Thanks
     
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  21. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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