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Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala And Sukhbir Singh Discussion On Dasam Granth At Sur Sagar TV

explorer

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Mar 27, 2006
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There is no mind reading required as there are no traps.


I was wondering if you have ever been inspired by any Gursikh scholar because for those who have shown respect to Dasam Granth have missed the Gurmat Train (as per your previous post) and there would be no point if I take refrence from their literature.

So if we could find find scholar in past 150 years who was a true Gursikh in thought and deed, we could have understood what did he day about the Dasam Granth as you, me and all others on this forum donot claim to be scholars per se!!

Thanks!!
Explorer
 

Bmandur

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We should recognized by Now what is going on our religion
This is what they want Sikhs should divide but we will never be
<B><?"urn:
P><P><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Gurfateh<
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Tejwant Singh

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Explorer ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

I was wondering if you have ever been inspired by any Gursikh scholar because for those who have shown respect to Dasam Granth have missed the Gurmat Train (as per your previous post) and there would be no point if I take refrence from their literature.
Pardon my ignorance but I am a bit puzzled by your statement above and it seems that the first part of the statement contradicts the latter one.

1. What do you mean by " shown respect to Dasam Granth"?

This query is irrelevant to my initial post :

"For me there is no debate. There can not be a debate. How can there be a debate based on speculation and people pretending to play Guru Gobind Singh?

We all know who wrote the SGGS, our only Guru and no one knows who wrote the so called DG. The only person who knows the truth about it never mentioned anything about it anywhere, and that person is our Dasam Pita- Guru Gobind Singh. Let's show respect and reverence to our 10th Guru and accept his actions. Not doing so is nothing but insulting him on purpose which is uncalled for any Sikh. No one can or should speak on his behalf.

All these pretenders are blowing their own whistles while riding on their own ego trains as they have deliberately missed the Gurmat train."


You further write:

So if we could find find scholar in past 150 years who was a true Gursikh in thought and deed, we could have understood what did he day about the Dasam Granth as you, me and all others on this forum donot claim to be scholars per se!!
As my post mentions above, any kind of research by Sikh scholars, historians, intellects, literati is irrelevant and is also nothing but speculation because the only person who can tell us about DG and if he has written it or not is our Dasam Pita. No one else. So if they want to keep on playing Guru Gobind Singh, hence flaunting their arrogance, ego and haumei, they are free to do that but that will not change anything about who are only Guru is, which is SGGS.

Who are we to decide what our Dasam Pita wrote when he, himself did not share that with us, which we know was a deliberate decision on his part?

So, it is about time we stopped disrespecting our Dasam Pita who gave us so much and for that reason we are 25 million strong.

We can only do that by accepting and respecting Guru Gobind Singh's decision rather than second guessing him again and again.

This will be the best tribute from all of us who call ourselves Sikhs.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 

explorer

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Mar 27, 2006
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Tejwant ji,

Gur Fateh!!

SGGS is the only guru is truth like a glowing sun and is acccepted by all.
Nobody has called DG as our guru, however every now and then people likes GCS Jeonwala started slandering the Dasam Bani so much so that even disrespected Jaap Sahib(on this debate also). And Jaap Sahib is one of the baani's recited by Panj Piara while the Pahul ceremony is conducted; hence its slander is not acceptable.

Many of the people who say that Dasam Granth has no relation with Dasam Pita are associated with the Singh Sabha Canada group.

The homepage of the singh sabha canada mentions that they are dedicated to Professor Gurmukh Singh and Giani Ditt Singh ji.

Giani Ditt Singh has cleared many confusions related to Dasam Granth in his book called "Durga Prabodh"

This book is available online at the Panjab Digital Library as original manuscript.

I invite you for a page by page discussion on this manuscript of this book.

At least we can look at the works of Giani Ditt Singh ji from whom all the anti-DG group takes their inspiration.

I hope this request is not showing any Haumei from my side.

Pls let me know, if you are ready to have a discussion based on Giani Ditt Singh ji's book who is not related to the present day debate and hence can be looked as an unbiased source.

Thanks!!
Explorer
 

Tejwant Singh

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Explorer ji,

Guru fateh.

SGGS is the only guru is truth like a glowing sun and is acccepted by all.
Nobody has called DG as our guru, however every now and then people likes GCS Jeonwala started slandering the Dasam Bani so much so that even disrespected Jaap Sahib(on this debate also). And Jaap Sahib is one of the baani's recited by Panj Piara while the Pahul ceremony is conducted; hence its slander is not acceptable.

Here you are contradicting yourself again. Is Jaap Sahib Gurbani or not? If it is Gurbani then DG is one more Guru.

Here is something for you to ponder.

If Chapaui and Jaap Sahib were recited by Guru Gobind Singh ji during putting the icing on the Khalsa Panth started by Guru Nanak on the blessed day of Vaiskahi in 1699, then wouldn't he have included them in the SGGS?

Or did he only recite three Gurbanis from the SGGS, our only Guru?

Many of the people who say that Dasam Granth has no relation with Dasam Pita are associated with the Singh Sabha Canada group.

I have no idea who these people are because my opinion is based on just common sense as repeatedly mentioned in the posts.

The homepage of the singh sabha canada mentions that they are dedicated to Professor Gurmukh Singh and Giani Ditt Singh ji.

Giani Ditt Singh has cleared many confusions related to Dasam Granth in his book called "Durga Prabodh"

This book is available online at the Panjab Digital Library as original manuscript.

I invite you for a page by page discussion on this manuscript of this book.

At least we can look at the works of Giani Ditt Singh ji from whom all the anti-DG group takes their inspiration.

I hope this request is not showing any Haumei from my side.

Pls let me know, if you are ready to have a discussion based on Giani Ditt Singh ji's book who is not related to the present day debate and hence can be looked as an unbiased source.

I am sorry to say that you have failed to grasp the meaning of my posts.

Is Giani Ditt Singh ji our Dasam Pita or is he one more who is pretending to be one as many are doing so?

Once again, only Dasam Pita knows the answers and he did not give them to us. So, let's respect his decision.

Rest is mere speculation from both sides.

That is why I mentioned in my first post that there is no debate about this, only tug of war of egos.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 

explorer

SPNer
Mar 27, 2006
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Tejwant ji,

Its for the people to on the forum to decide who has failed in grasping what!!

I wonder you are discussing and trying to learn (as per your posts) from people on this forum who are also not our Dasam Pita; however when I mentioned Giani Ditt Singh ji, you politely asked me : Is he Dasam Pita ?

Lets be fair in our approach.

All the people here, share their thoughts based on some translation of the SGGS.
Either they take help from SGGS Darpan of Dr. Sahib Singh or any other source they feel better.

Neither of these translators were Dasam Pita!!

Now its for the people to decide what is better appraoch!!

I have shared my less than two cents.

Thanks!!
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Tejwant Singh

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Tejwant ji,

Its for the people to on the forum to decide who has failed in grasping what!!

I wonder you are discussing and trying to learn (as per your posts) from people on this forum who are also not our Dasam Pita; however when I mentioned Giani Ditt Singh ji, you politely asked me : Is he Dasam Pita ?

Lets be fair in our approach.

All the people here, share their thoughts based on some translation of the SGGS.
Either they take help from SGGS Darpan of Dr. Sahib Singh or any other source they feel better.

Neither of these translators were Dasam Pita!!

Now its for the people to decide what is better appraoch!!

I have shared my less than two cents.

Thanks!!
Explorer

Explorer ji,

Guru Fateh.

Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what you are trying to say. All what you have said above is irrelevant to what I wrote. Please read my first post about SGGS and we know who wrote that.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh
 

explorer

SPNer
Mar 27, 2006
34
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My 2 cent worth.

For me there is no debate. There can not be a debate. How can there be a debate based on speculation and people pretending to play Guru Gobind Singh?

We all know who wrote the SGGS, our only Guru and no one knows who wrote the so called DG. The only person who knows the truth about it never mentioned anything about it anywhere, and that person is our Dasam Pita- Guru Gobind Singh. Let's show respect and reverence to our 10th Guru and accept his actions. Not doing so is nothing but insulting him on purpose which is uncalled for any Sikh. No one can or should speak on his behalf.

All these pretenders are blowing their own whistles while riding on their own ego trains as they have deliberately missed the Gurmat train.

Tejwant Singh

This is your first post.

"All these pretenders are blowing their own whistles while riding on their own ego trains as they have deliberately missed the Gurmat train."

Can you please elaborate did Giani Ditt Singh went for a ego ride when he wrote Durga Prabodh.

Pls answer specific to the question?

Thanks!!
Explorer
 

spnadmin

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Let me intervene with this note.

There is no agreement as to the banis recited at the first Pahul ceremony.

There is no scholarship contemporary with the life of Dasam Pita himself that could support the inferences of any number of modern scholars who claim Dasam Granth to be from the pen of Guru Gobind Singh.

There has been to date no systematic scientific or linguistic evaluation of the extant pothees that can place them historically during the life time of Guru Gobind Singh.

Attached is a summary of commentary on banees recited at the first Pahul ceremony.
 

Attachments

  • 13262634-Which-Banis-Did-the-Tenth-Guru-Recite-at-the-Time-of-Administering-Amrit.pdf
    62 KB · Reads: 224

Tejwant Singh

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This is your first post.

"All these pretenders are blowing their own whistles while riding on their own ego trains as they have deliberately missed the Gurmat train."

Can you please elaborate did Giani Ditt Singh went for a ego ride when he wrote Durga Prabodh.

Pls answer specific to the question?

Thanks!!
Explorer

Explorer ji,

Guru Fateh.

All those who pretend to claim what Guru Gobind Singh wrote and what he did not fall under this:

"All these pretenders are blowing their own whistles while riding on their own ego trains as they have deliberately missed the Gurmat train."

Only Dasam Pita knows the answer and he did not give us any which is the fact and we should begin to learn how to respect that.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh
 

explorer

SPNer
Mar 27, 2006
34
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Let me intervene with this note.

There is no agreement as to the banis recited at the first Pahul ceremony.

There is no scholarship contemporary with the life of Dasam Pita himself that could support the inferences of any number of modern scholars who claim Dasam Granth to be from the pen of Guru Gobind Singh.

There has been to date no systematic scientific or linguistic evaluation of the extant pothees that can place them historically during the life time of Guru Gobind Singh.

Attached is a summary of commentary on banees recited at the first Pahul ceremony.

Does that mean we all have been mislead till date and none except Dr. Jaggi has been able to find the truth?
 

explorer

SPNer
Mar 27, 2006
34
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If thats the case, then nowhere Guru Sahib mentions in SGGS that sikhs should go through the Pahul Ceremony and should wear 5K's

How can one decide now, if its not mentioned in the SGGS by Guru Sahib himself.

Going by the same logic, if it was so important and necessary than why was not it mentioned in the SGGS by Guruji himself so as to save the forthcoming generations from any problem of being mislead.
 

spnadmin

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exxplorer ji

Your questions are good questions as far as I am concerned. We know that Guru Gobind Singh declared the Guru Granth as Guru. We know that he added no banee of his own, only that of his father.

We have only sketchy information regarding the banee recited at the first Pahul ceremony.

There is indirect evidence that the Gurus before Dasam Pita may have conducted Charan Pahul. It is not clear cut.

But in my opinion the "forthcoming generations" unto our own have put themselves in this pickle by not subscribing to the attitude of "learners." Instead anyone can be called an "atheist" or a guru nindak on the basis of a scriptural question or disagreement. Perhaps, Guru Gobind Singh wanted to prevent this argumentative past, present and future by making Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj GURU. The words of the eternal Guru would be our guide - his intention. He as much said so.

aagya bhai Akal ki Tabhi chalayo Panth,
Sab Sikhan ko hukum hai Guru Manyo Granth.
Guru Granth ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh.
jo, prabh ko milna chahe khoj shabad men le.


For those words we have contemporary sources. The problem is a large number of people decided to second guess him.
 

explorer

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Mar 27, 2006
34
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exxplorer ji

Your questions are good questions as far as I am concerned. We know that Guru Gobind Singh declared the Guru Granth as Guru. We know that he added no banee of his own, only that of his father.

We have only sketchy information regarding the banee recited at the first Pahul ceremony.

There is indirect evidence that the Gurus before Dasam Pita may have conducted
Charan Pahul. It is not clear cut.

But in my opinion the "forthcoming generations" unto our own have put themselves in this pickle by not subscribing to the attitude of "learners." Instead anyone can be called an "atheist" or a guru nindak on the basis of a scriptural question or disagreement. Perhaps, Guru Gobind Singh wanted to prevent this argumentative past, present and future by making Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj GURU. The words of the eternal Guru would be our guide - his intention. He as much said so.

aagya bhai Akal ki Tabhi chalayo Panth,
Sab Sikhan ko hukum hai Guru Manyo Granth.
Guru Granth ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh.
jo, prabh ko milna chahe khoj shabad men le.


For those words we have contemporary sources. The problem is a large number of people decided to second guess him.

All your views are not your own views, they are very much dependant on the understanding of the others.


If we are ready to look into what Principal Harbhajan Singh says then why not examine others like Giani Ditt Singh ji.

Why should we should we consider Dr. Jaggi's opinion............... just because he says that the letter sent by Bhai Mani Singh ji is fake primarliy because it was a written with a Nib in a vijogatamak style(words separated), this claim has been refuted by the Mool-Mantra signature of different Guru Sahibaan.

Bhai Ditt Singh is a known scholar in the panth, who not only helped in the establishment of Singh Sabhas, he also fought the Bippars (Pamma Prabodh), the muslim Pir worshippers( Gugga Gapora from Sultan Puara), who also took the fake sikhs to task ( Nakli sikh prabodh) and he also clarified the doubts of those who based on chandi-ki-vaar and bachitter natak wanted to prove that Guru Gobind Singh was a Devi Bhagat.

A very simple reason that I request Tejwant ji to start a reading of "Durga Prabodh" as it has poetry and is explanation also by Giani ji himself, so we have no doubt on its interpretation.

Apart from this I personally fell that being too much logic oriented; we start rejecting all that which doesnot come into our logical understanding.
 

spnadmin

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explorer ji

I would say that the lack of direct evidence, contemporary with the life of Guru Gobind Singh, combined with the words of Dasam Pita himself, is pretty convincing. Together these are a platform for being skeptical. And that combination is a fair rationale for understanding why critics are critics.

aagya bhai Akal ki Tabhi chalayo Panth,
Sab Sikhan ko hukum hai Guru Manyo Granth.

Guru Granth ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh.
jo, prabh ko milna chahe khoj shabad men le.

So then my question goes to the writing of Gian Ditt Singh, whose name is now being widely circulated among those Internet audiences who also argue for parkash of Dasam Granth with Guru Granth. To the point of binding them in one book. To the point of claiming that rejection of Dasam Granth is a rejection of Guru Granth. This argument has been promulgated by the patashai organization's gurus and chelas. Based only on their opinion.

1. Gian Ditt Singh did not start his career as poet and scholar as a proponent of SinghSaba, but as a chela of santsamaj elements. Their mistreatment and exploitation of him led him into a different direction.

2. How can the poetry of Gian Ditt Singh be more influential in our thinking than the poetry of Gobind Singh,

aagya bhai Akal ki Tabhi chalayo Panth,
Sab Sikhan ko hukum hai Guru Manyo Granth.

Guru Granth ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh.
jo, prabh ko milna chahe khoj shabad men le.


3. I have the sense that Gian Ditt Singh's thought and work has been conflated somehow with the thought and work of Giani Gian Singh -- nonetheless neither has produced historical evidence. Both are 19th into early 20th Century writers.

Professor Jaggi was hunting for evidence, even circumstantial evidence, not opinions.
 

spnadmin

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explorer ji

Your words,
"Apart from this I personally fell that being too much logic oriented; we start rejecting all that which doesnot come into our logical understanding"

If we were discussing the existence of God, the nature of gurprasaad, the shabadguru as organizing principle for our belief. Then I would agree with you. But --We are not.

We are discussing the authenticity of a collection of hymns, many of which have doubtful authorship, but are attributed to Guru Gobind Singh by some members of the panth. They hold the high cards right now, and have seen fit to discourage discussion and logic by by-passing the democratic ideals and traditions of our Gurus and our history. They seem to show disregard for evidence, logic and common sense.

All need to recall attacks on Aad Granth, specifically attacks on the Kartarpuri Bir, which suffers none of the inconsistencies of the so-called Dasam Granth. Professor Sahib Singh in the introduction to his classic refutation of the attackers said this. Evidence, logic and common sense prove the attackers completely wrong. Logic was his friend.

His work "About the Compilation of SGGS" should be the gold-standard for analysis of the Dasam Granth.

So I am willing to stand with that. Read his analysis. It is a true work of scholarship.
 

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  • Compilation of SGGS.pdf
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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Explorer Ji..
i am sure the same words were used by the Pope and his followers of the mighty Church...
"Have we all been MISLED..all this while..and ONLY ONE..Galileo galillee managed to see the "truth" ??.....It is possible for all to be misled..and for ONLY dr Jaggee to see the "truth" !!!
Just HOW MANY must be there for TRUTH to become the TRUTH ?? Since ONE dr Jaggee is NOT enough..will it have to be 5...10..50..100..??? Rememeber Guru nanak ji is also ONE..and HE saw the TRUTH...mitee dhund jagg chhannan hoya....Satgur Nanak pargaitya!! ( I am NOT comparing as to me Guru nanak Ji is Satgur..but in the case of "number argument" He is still Only ONE...some might have said even then...Have we ALL been MISLED by the Vedas, Purans, the Rams and Krsihans and rishis munis..and ONLY ONE GURU "nanak" saw the TRUTH ?? I respectfully put that JUST ONE is enough to see the TRUTH.
 

explorer

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Mar 27, 2006
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Respected Giani ji,

The concern is not that I am opposed to what Dr. Jaggi did?

The issue is about our approach to the issue and assumptions.

I quoted Giani Ditt Singh ji because "Singh Sabha Canada" who has been spearheading this campaign in the recent times mentions on their home pages that they drive their inspiration from the Giani Ditt Singh who fought the ills attached to sikh society whether they were Pujaris, Mahants or Arya Samajis......... and it was during those time he wrote "Durga Prabodh" "Pamma Prabodh" , Dambh-Bidaran, Naqli-Sikh Prabodh.
He did not do this to get any academic degree which would ensure him employment in a univeristy......... People respect him becuase he spent his life for the cause of Sikh Nation.

And when there Mahants like Narinoo, at the same time there were people like Sant Attar Singh ji Mastuane wale and others like him who did prachar and seva in the panth.

These Gursikhs actually helped in the bringing the panth out of the shock which has affected the sikh nation due to the loss of kingdom during the time of britishers.

Giani Ditt Singh along with Professor Gurmukh Singh devoted their lifetime for the Seva of the Panth and so much so that Professor Gurmukh Singh was ex-communicated by the Pujaris of Akal Takht Sahib.

If the works of Giani Ditt Singh were in contradiction to the philosophy of Guru Gobind Singh , why would have Professor Gurmukh Singh kep his association with Giani Ditt Singh ji ( Its important to note because Professor Gurmukh Singh did everything fearlessly and also a so-called ex-communication didnot deter him).

If such a person, was a close associate of Giani Ditt Singh ji; we should not pass him off just as a modern scholar.

Secondly, Professor Sahib Singh also didnot find any fault with the Nitnem Bani's even with his critical and logic based approach; he translations of Jaap Sahib and other Dasam Granth Bani's are available.

Why don't we see it like this ................. He did a mammoth task of Teeka of SGGS which took him years and years....... He also translated Bani's of Nitnem including Jaap Sahib.......

Had he rejected Jaap Sahib; then we could have said.... look he also rejected it.

Now this dohra which echoes the feeling of Guru Gobind Singh ji.....

"Aagya Bhai Akal ki"

has been written by Rattan Singh Bhangu who was the grandson of the Bhai Mehtab Singh............ in his granth Panth Parkash.

The same RS Bhangu mentions that Guru Sahib ordered sikhs to recide chandi-di-vaar etc.

Galelio was a scientist whose passion was to know about science and tell people about the same, whether Dr Jaggi Stands for the same merit...... it doesn't appear so....
 

Tejwant Singh

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Explorer ji,

Guru Fateh.

You are once again mixing apples and oranges, hence manufacturing circular arguments for the reasons only known to you. I have no idea if there is some hidden agenda behind it to discredit SGGS, our only Guru and embrace another book which no one knows who wrote it, ala neo- Ravidasis.

Allow me to talk about your whole post unlike you who take one sentence from mine and call it my first post.

{Originally Posted by explorer
This is your first post.
"All these pretenders are blowing their own whistles while riding on their own ego trains as they have deliberately missed the Gurmat train."}

If thats the case, then nowhere Guru Sahib mentions in SGGS that sikhs should go through the Pahul Ceremony and should wear 5K's
Sikhi is a unique way of life unlike other religions. The fact of the matter is and I am sure you are aware of it that our Gurus only wrote Gurbani-the tool box for all of us to breed goodness within. They did not write any history, on purpose, because history is about the person and it can be distorted with time and by the literati and historians of the future. They could have also hired some great writers to write the events, but the fact is they did not choose to do that. They could have also hired great portrait artists who could portray them in beautiful paintings with the regalia,but the fact remains none of that happened and it is not accidental but a deliberate and a visionary move from our Gurus.

The reason being is that Sikhi is NOT about me-ism but about One-ism. Having done all the above would have emphasized the former, not the latter on which SGGS is based.

Case in point that Guru Nanak did not write in the SGGS his Udasis and we know through history that those took place. No mention of sacrifices of our 5th and 9th Gurus mentioned anywhere either.

So, if one goes with your logic above then these things were missing and what do you have to say about that?

Why no objection coming from you for these deliberate omissions?

SGGS is not a compilations of events in our Guru's lives but a blueprint for all humanity how to breed goodness within. That is the whole idea about the SGGS which has writings from all kinds of people from different faiths besides our 6 Gurus.

So, your question is irrelevant as far as SGGS is concerned.

Khandei di pahul was the icing put by Guru Gobind Singh on the cake of Khalsa Panth started by Guru Nanak.It was an event like many others- the sacrifices of the four Sahibzadas was one more among many and they are not mentioned in the SGGS either.

Going by the same logic, if it was so important and necessary than why was not it mentioned in the SGGS by Guruji himself so as to save the forthcoming generations from any problem of being mislead.
Once again, you are second guessing Guru Gobind Singh ji as you have done in your previous posts and put more credence to hearsays by the so called Sikh Scholars, which is sad The answer is only known to our Dasam Pita. He had the authourity,time and all other things needed to write that and many other things but chose not to. I have no idea why you have this disliking on the decisions that our Dasam pita took. Only you know the reasons.

So, if we call ourselves Sikhs then it is our duty to respect him and his decisions. Second guessing him is nothing but being insulting to him and one upmanship bred out of sheer ego and me-ism, which Sikhi is not about.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 

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