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Hard Talk
Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana - A Debate
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<blockquote data-quote="spnadmin" data-source="post: 75860" data-attributes="member: 35"><p><strong>Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.</strong></p><p></p><p>Jios,</p><p></p><p>This is complicated stuff!!! Kala Afghana appears to be neither asking questions nor preaching. He is not asking questions as in posing statements ending with a question mark ???? in hopes of getting answers. Does he really want answers? Nor does he appear to be preaching. He does appear to be testomg deeply held beliefs, which may or may not be supportable in Bani. In other words, he may be looking for a debate (or maybe looking for a fight?). Since the list is longer than 5 questions, Mr. Afghana has been hard at work for a long time. And the information out there is so deeply vested in one side of the argument or the other, that objective analysis -- what's that?</p><p></p><p>The only "list" I could find was in Wikipedia (believe it or not). Everything else was opinion. Here is the list.</p><p></p><p><strong>Kala Afghana's (KA) views on different issues (taken from 'Bipran ki Reet to Sach da Marg')</strong> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Bhog & Guru Granth Sahib</strong>: Doing bhog of Deg in presence of Guru Granth Sahib is manmat according to KA.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Sri Amritsar Ishnan</strong>: KA states that the holy water of the sarovar should NOT be referred to as Amrit.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Washing our Feet</strong>: KA criticizes the practice of washing our feet before entering Darbar Sahib or our Gurduara Sahibs.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Amrit Vela</strong>: KA states how can you call a particular time of the day Amrit-Vela when so many evil things happen around the world at that time.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Bhai Veer Singh Ji</strong>: KA criticizes Bhai Veer Singh Ji for making anti-Gurmat statements expresses disappointment about his works.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Bhai Veer Singh Ji, Baba Sri Chand Ji</strong>: KA accuses Bhai Veer Singh Ji of lying about Baba Sri Chand Ji, and refers to such writers as "Sikhi day Vayree" (enemies of the Sikhs).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Amritsar Sarovar</strong>: KA implies that there is no basis behind the belief that partaking ishnan in Amritsar sarovar will wash away one's sins. He states that it has nothing to do whatsoever with the Gurbani verse : "RamDaas Sarova Natai || Sabh Utray Pap Kamatai||</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Baba Deep Singh Ji's memorial</strong>: KA argues against the need for a memorial for Baba Deep Singh Ji where Baba Ji's severed was laid to rest. He refers to this as idol worship. He questions even whether Baba Ji's severed head had fell at that particular place.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit</strong>: KA questions the historical reference that (1)Amrit could revive the dead (the Panj Piarays).(2)Amrit could rid one of previous sins.(3)He states that this kind of belief will convince an Amritdharee to committ further sins.(4)He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)(5)KA states that the reference to Guru Gobind Singh of reviving the Panj Piyarays after cutting their "sees" are pure lies.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale</strong>: KA states that Baba Jarnail Singh Ji committed acts that brought about the current downfall of the Panth. Baba Jarnail Singh Ji desecrated Sri Darbar Sahib when defended and fortified it. By giving shastars and motorcycles to the Sikh youth, he (Baba Jarnail Singh) made us into murderers and robbers (dakoos). KA states that even after Baba Harnam Singh also joined in, their Panthic wishes were never fullfilled. He questions their sincerity and wonders if they were are all "bhekhee" (charlatans).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Khanday-Batay da Amrit & Sweet Pittasay</strong>: KA states that to consider that sweet Pittasay were to be used in preparation of Amrit is a maha-Paap (enormous sin) since it implies that : (1) Dasam Patshah must have understood Naam-Amrit to be bitter. (2) Dasam Patshah had forgotten the Pittasay and his mistake was corrected by Mata Jito Jee. States that this Pittasay eposide is a myth and was made up by the enemies of this faith.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 3 Banees of Dasam Patshah</strong>: KA ridicules reference to Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees recited during Amrit-Sanchar.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 5 Banees</strong>: KA states only the Banees in Guru Granth Sahib were part of the Amrit-Sanchar ceremony. To consider that other three (Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees) were read by the Guru Gobind Singh Ji is utterly direspectful to our SatGurus.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piyaray & Shakti</strong>: KA ridicules the concept of Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piaray & the divine powers (Shakti) of Amrit. He also referrs to Amrit-dharees as "Papian di Santaan" (offspring of sinners)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & Patits</strong>: KA states that was responsible for making Sikh children cut their Kes, smoke tobacco, and become Patits. States that for Sikhs, becoming a Singh is a "bharm" (superstition) of the mind. He also states that those who consider Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit as becoming "Guru-waley" (inititation into Sikhism) are mistaken.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Amrit & Naam</strong>: KA states that calling Amrit Naam is BrahmanVaad.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Jao Tao Premo Khellan… & Baba Deep Singh</strong>: KA ridicules the use of this tuk in reference to Baba Deep Singh deed of fighting with his sis on his palm.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Adultery & Bhai Randhir Singh</strong>: KA states that Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote that Adultery was allowed in the Rahit.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Charan-Amrit</strong>: KA ridicules that Sikh tradition of Charan-Amrit that existed until Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit replaced it in 1699. He refers to it as a Brahmanic ritual.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Panj Piaray & Guru Gobind Singh Ji</strong>: He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Panj Piaray & Amritdharis</strong>: KA ridicules Panj Piaray & Amritdharis, tells story of a man who was so fed up with Amritdharis that he cut his Kes and never kept them again.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Anand-Karj</strong>: He ridicules the Panth Parvan Anand-Karj Ceremony. Lables the Anand Maryada as based on Brahmanic Rituals.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Bhai Randhir Singh</strong>: Labels Bhai Randhir Singh as a "Bipree Agent" (an agent of the Brahmans)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others</strong>: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Khanday-Batay, Amrit & Mantar</strong>: States that the water put in a sarovar or bowl (Khanday-Batay) can never be called Amrit. Nor can anyone blow any Mantar (WaheGuru) in water and turn it into anything powerful (Amrit). He credits the Brahmans for creating such a belief.</li> </ul><p>Whatever his deficiencies as a human being, Mr. Afghana has a talent for stirring the pot. That could be one reason why so many are antagonized by his behavior. I myself cannot tell if he is just looking for a fight, or actually wants to have a reciprocal exchange of views. And he doesn't have much patience with Hindus. So are his test questions sincere or not? Can a reasonably objective person be blamed for being suspicious if he/she can't tell if Mr. Afghana is testing established beliefs to get closer to the "truth" (with a small t) as he sees it, or is simply out to enjoy the thrill of target practice?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="spnadmin, post: 75860, member: 35"] [b]Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.[/b] Jios, This is complicated stuff!!! Kala Afghana appears to be neither asking questions nor preaching. He is not asking questions as in posing statements ending with a question mark ???? in hopes of getting answers. Does he really want answers? Nor does he appear to be preaching. He does appear to be testomg deeply held beliefs, which may or may not be supportable in Bani. In other words, he may be looking for a debate (or maybe looking for a fight?). Since the list is longer than 5 questions, Mr. Afghana has been hard at work for a long time. And the information out there is so deeply vested in one side of the argument or the other, that objective analysis -- what's that? The only "list" I could find was in Wikipedia (believe it or not). Everything else was opinion. Here is the list. [B]Kala Afghana's (KA) views on different issues (taken from 'Bipran ki Reet to Sach da Marg')[/B][LIST] [*][B]Bhog & Guru Granth Sahib[/B]: Doing bhog of Deg in presence of Guru Granth Sahib is manmat according to KA. [*][B]Sri Amritsar Ishnan[/B]: KA states that the holy water of the sarovar should NOT be referred to as Amrit. [*][B]Washing our Feet[/B]: KA criticizes the practice of washing our feet before entering Darbar Sahib or our Gurduara Sahibs. [*][B]Amrit Vela[/B]: KA states how can you call a particular time of the day Amrit-Vela when so many evil things happen around the world at that time. [*][B]Bhai Veer Singh Ji[/B]: KA criticizes Bhai Veer Singh Ji for making anti-Gurmat statements expresses disappointment about his works. [*][B]Bhai Veer Singh Ji, Baba Sri Chand Ji[/B]: KA accuses Bhai Veer Singh Ji of lying about Baba Sri Chand Ji, and refers to such writers as "Sikhi day Vayree" (enemies of the Sikhs). [*][B]Amritsar Sarovar[/B]: KA implies that there is no basis behind the belief that partaking ishnan in Amritsar sarovar will wash away one's sins. He states that it has nothing to do whatsoever with the Gurbani verse : "RamDaas Sarova Natai || Sabh Utray Pap Kamatai|| [*][B]Baba Deep Singh Ji's memorial[/B]: KA argues against the need for a memorial for Baba Deep Singh Ji where Baba Ji's severed was laid to rest. He refers to this as idol worship. He questions even whether Baba Ji's severed head had fell at that particular place. [*][B]Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit[/B]: KA questions the historical reference that (1)Amrit could revive the dead (the Panj Piarays).(2)Amrit could rid one of previous sins.(3)He states that this kind of belief will convince an Amritdharee to committ further sins.(4)He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)(5)KA states that the reference to Guru Gobind Singh of reviving the Panj Piyarays after cutting their "sees" are pure lies. [*][B]Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale[/B]: KA states that Baba Jarnail Singh Ji committed acts that brought about the current downfall of the Panth. Baba Jarnail Singh Ji desecrated Sri Darbar Sahib when defended and fortified it. By giving shastars and motorcycles to the Sikh youth, he (Baba Jarnail Singh) made us into murderers and robbers (dakoos). KA states that even after Baba Harnam Singh also joined in, their Panthic wishes were never fullfilled. He questions their sincerity and wonders if they were are all "bhekhee" (charlatans). [*][B]Khanday-Batay da Amrit & Sweet Pittasay[/B]: KA states that to consider that sweet Pittasay were to be used in preparation of Amrit is a maha-Paap (enormous sin) since it implies that : (1) Dasam Patshah must have understood Naam-Amrit to be bitter. (2) Dasam Patshah had forgotten the Pittasay and his mistake was corrected by Mata Jito Jee. States that this Pittasay eposide is a myth and was made up by the enemies of this faith. [*][B]Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 3 Banees of Dasam Patshah[/B]: KA ridicules reference to Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees recited during Amrit-Sanchar. [*][B]Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 5 Banees[/B]: KA states only the Banees in Guru Granth Sahib were part of the Amrit-Sanchar ceremony. To consider that other three (Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees) were read by the Guru Gobind Singh Ji is utterly direspectful to our SatGurus. [*][B]Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piyaray & Shakti[/B]: KA ridicules the concept of Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piaray & the divine powers (Shakti) of Amrit. He also referrs to Amrit-dharees as "Papian di Santaan" (offspring of sinners) [*][B]Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & Patits[/B]: KA states that was responsible for making Sikh children cut their Kes, smoke tobacco, and become Patits. States that for Sikhs, becoming a Singh is a "bharm" (superstition) of the mind. He also states that those who consider Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit as becoming "Guru-waley" (inititation into Sikhism) are mistaken. [*][B]Amrit & Naam[/B]: KA states that calling Amrit Naam is BrahmanVaad. [*][B]Jao Tao Premo Khellan… & Baba Deep Singh[/B]: KA ridicules the use of this tuk in reference to Baba Deep Singh deed of fighting with his sis on his palm. [*][B]Adultery & Bhai Randhir Singh[/B]: KA states that Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote that Adultery was allowed in the Rahit. [*][B]Charan-Amrit[/B]: KA ridicules that Sikh tradition of Charan-Amrit that existed until Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit replaced it in 1699. He refers to it as a Brahmanic ritual. [*][B]Panj Piaray & Guru Gobind Singh Ji[/B]: He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella) [*][B]Panj Piaray & Amritdharis[/B]: KA ridicules Panj Piaray & Amritdharis, tells story of a man who was so fed up with Amritdharis that he cut his Kes and never kept them again. [*][B]Anand-Karj[/B]: He ridicules the Panth Parvan Anand-Karj Ceremony. Lables the Anand Maryada as based on Brahmanic Rituals. [*][B]Bhai Randhir Singh[/B]: Labels Bhai Randhir Singh as a "Bipree Agent" (an agent of the Brahmans) [*][B]Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others[/B]: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld. [*][B]Khanday-Batay, Amrit & Mantar[/B]: States that the water put in a sarovar or bowl (Khanday-Batay) can never be called Amrit. Nor can anyone blow any Mantar (WaheGuru) in water and turn it into anything powerful (Amrit). He credits the Brahmans for creating such a belief.[/LIST]Whatever his deficiencies as a human being, Mr. Afghana has a talent for stirring the pot. That could be one reason why so many are antagonized by his behavior. I myself cannot tell if he is just looking for a fight, or actually wants to have a reciprocal exchange of views. And he doesn't have much patience with Hindus. So are his test questions sincere or not? Can a reasonably objective person be blamed for being suspicious if he/she can't tell if Mr. Afghana is testing established beliefs to get closer to the "truth" (with a small t) as he sees it, or is simply out to enjoy the thrill of target practice? [/QUOTE]
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Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana - A Debate
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