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Grammer / Vyakarn Gurbani Vyakaran (Viyakaran, Vayakaran, Viakaran) - Punjabi Grammar

Discussion in 'Language, Arts & Culture' started by Ambarsaria, Apr 29, 2012.

  1. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Perhaps worth noting that all work done many centuries after Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was composed are our attempts and of some esteemed scholars like Prof. Sahib Singh ji and others. Languages change with times so we need to keep ourselves in tune to the message versus get stuck in comparing who is best at defining what grammatical rules or books our Guru ji's or older Bhagats like Kabir ji used in their compositions or not.

    Let us not get carried away and lose sight that it is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that we are trying to understand as written and as Guru ji wanted us to read and understand it. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not written for any elite even though the learned one's can help in making it more right to understand and easy to understand.

    The following quick references for Punjabi Grammar including Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Vyakaran,

    [​IMG]

    I have uploaded the book in side-by-side two facing pages format per the URL below,
    http://s802.photobucket.com/albums/yy301/Happy2iam/Gurbani Vyakaran/

    General Punjabi Grammar for all to find help in perhaps can be also of great use as follows,
    http://punjabi.aglsoft.com/punjabi/learngrammar/

    It will be great to learn by quoting complete sabads and then having a discourse. Just a suggestion.

    Let us go.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: I believe it is important to note that there are not different Grammars for Punjabi and Gurbani. The differences of note could only be observed, if such exist, due to the writings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji being almost 600+ years old (Kabir ji) versus the Punjabi in the days of Guru ji's (500 years ago) and Punjabi of today. First and foremost it should be all considered Punjabi but of different times.
     
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    #1 Ambarsaria, Apr 29, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
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  3. prakash.s.bagga

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    It would be incorrect to consider the application of grammar as Punjabi Grammar.in SGGS.
    It is important to understand that Punjabi is a Language not the script.The application of grammar is for the script only and the script is Gurmukhi and is indepependent of Language in SGGS .
    We can find Maharshtrian Language in SGGS as in the Banee of Bhagat NAMDEV Ji but in Gurmukhi script We can find langugaes of nealy all states across India in SGGS but in Gurmukhi script.
    We can see that the original Kabir Banee is not in Punjabi language.The whole language of Kabi Banee is from NORTh EAST area of India.And the same Banee has been included in SGGS in Gurmukhi script not in Punjabi language.

    So the grammar is of the SCRIPT not Of the language in SGGS.

    These are my personal observations and views.

    Prakash.s.Bagga
     
  4. Ambarsaria

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    Prakash.S.Bagga ji show us how the rules of Punjabi Grammar are different from Gurbani Grammar by examples please. Otherwise your post tells me nothing.

    There are vocabularies from various regions, even other languages but well understood as written in Punjabi. Are you telling me Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not written in Punjabi or language of the greater Punjab of the times? Minor dialect differences are well within the realm of understanding in the Punjabi context that these are included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    If you do not know Punjabi language, you cannot understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji even if you pronounce it. Others have to translate or do exposition for you. Language is not just grammar. It is Alphabet/script, grammar and vocabulary.

    To me Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji reads and sounds as Punjabi as I have ever learned or known. I personally have no interest in trying to relate it to Sanskrit, Hindi, Devnagri, etc., beyond simple clarification of a word or such that may be used. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji grammar is not Sanskrit or any other like Devnagri, Hindi, and other and as such these are just diversions for me. You may fancy this kind of stuff but I don't as this for me is a sure way of making Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as though for the elite and not the common man. By necessity so leading to or requiring preachers and pandit look alikes. We know how many have used this guise to destroy the messages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or take advantage by deriving self serving meanings. May Sikhism and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji be saved from such charlatans.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    #3 Ambarsaria, Apr 30, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    I have to agree with Ambarsariah ji..its PUNJABI GRAMMAR and SGGS uses PUNJABI GRAMMAR. SGGS is written in PUNJABI....the Peoples Language as opposed to others. Grammars are for LANGUAGES..not scripts alone...for example Malay language has a Grammar but NO SCRIPT. The Only thing unique is SGGS is UNIQUE...BUT its Part and parcel of PUNJABI LITERATURE/GREAT WRITING as well as GURU of Sikhs. IN fact many Jansanghi arya samajist HINDUS HATE PUNJABI solely becasue of SGGS...and call it the SIKH Language. For this reason alone thousnads of them STABBED their MOTHER TONGUE in her back by claiming they spoke HINDI ( in teatth punjabi..Mein Punjabi nahin Bolda..mein HINDU hun...whereas a Hindi speaker would say hum hindi mein baat kardeh hein hum hindu hein..). PUNJABI LANGUAGE in GURMUKHI SCRIPT actually SURVIVES solely becasue of SGGS.
     
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  6. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    when we translate/transliterate ENGLISH word KNIFE in say Gurmukhi Script we would write it as "Nife".. Nanna+Kanna+E+F and not even bother to write it as (K)Nanna+kanna+E+F !!! But when some write Gurbani from Gurmukhi in English they write the Punjabi word AA(siharee)D as...Ad(i)....and DISTORT the perfectly good Punjabi Word AAD into a Meaningless ADI...so AAD Granth becomes ADI GRANTH !! The SIHAREE in PUNJABI has absolutely no significance in English...its ONLY relevance is in SGGS context ONLY. Just as the SILENT "K" in KNIFE has no significance except in its Original Language...
    i hope I am making sense..ha ha
     
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  7. Luckysingh

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    Let's not complicate things. I think the whole idea of starting this thread is a very good one and it is to SIMPLIFY things, not complicate them.
    As far as I know, the gurmukhi text is an important source of the punjabi of today.
    All languages can be spoken one way, but written in many different ways. We shouldn't confuse the issue by overlapping here.
    I do believe as Gyani ji stated, that punjabi language survives today because of Sri guru granth sahib ji. If it were not for this, then even the written shahmukhi would still be more widespread today as it was previously.
     
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  8. prakash.s.bagga

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    Yes I agree there are examples where language and grammar are same but in many cases this is different also.Thus the rule of language and grammar being same is not same every where.
    For Enlish Language one has English Grammar.Where there exist different language dilects there this language and grammar may be different.
    in SGGS there are different language dialect in Gurmukhi script.This is the real character of SGGS.
    The grammar of Punjabi language is different from that of Gurbani Grammar that is why you have different books on Gurbanee Grammar.
    Without being prejudice one should see how Gurbanee grammar is different from Punjabi grammar.
    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  9. prakash.s.bagga

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    In which script we write Punjabi language that is Gurmukhi.Do we have separate Punjabi Scriprt?
    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  10. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    <TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" id=AutoNumber1 border=1 cellSpacing=0 borderColor=#111111 cellPadding=0 width="100%" height=2><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: #111111; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: #000; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: #111111" height=19 width="100%"><TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" id=AutoNumber3 border=1 cellSpacing=0 borderColor=#111111 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: #000; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" vAlign=top borderColor=#ff0000 width="66%">
    [​IMG]
    because the truth needs to be told
    </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: #000; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" vAlign=top borderColor=#ff0000 width="17%"></TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: #000; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" borderColorLight=#ff0000 vAlign=top borderColor=#ff0000 width="100%" colSpan=3 borderColorDark=#ff0000></TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: #000; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" vAlign=top width="100%" colSpan=3></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: #111111; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: #000; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: #111111" height=19 vAlign=top width="100%"><TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" id=AutoNumber5 border=1 cellSpacing=0 borderColor=#111111 cellPadding=0 width="100%" height=684><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: #000; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" height=682 vAlign=top width="46%"><TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" id=AutoNumber8 border=1 cellSpacing=0 borderColor=#111111 cellPadding=0 width="100%" height=698><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: #000; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" height=696 vAlign=top width="17%"><TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" id=AutoNumber18 border=1 cellSpacing=0 borderColor=#111111 cellPadding=0 width=93><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: #000; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" bgColor=#dae7e7 width=8></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: #000; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" bgColor=#dae7e7 width=85>Special Report
    Editorial
    Op-Ed

    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: #000; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" height=696 vAlign=top width="83%"><TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" id=AutoNumber17 border=1 cellSpacing=0 borderColor=#111111 cellPadding=0 width="100%" height=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: #000; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" height=1 vAlign=top width="97%">Save Gurmukhi to Save Punjabi
    Nanak Singh Nishter
    <TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" id=AutoNumber20 border=1 cellSpacing=0 borderColor=#111111 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" width="15%"></TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" width="72%">Tracing the links between scripts and languages, the author stresses the need to preserve and protect the Gurmukhi script.
    </TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" width="13%"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    This article clearly indicates the difference between script and language.
    The article is dt 30.04.12 by Nashtar Singh Nishthar ji.
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    Prakash.S.Bagga
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
     
  11. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    PUNJABI in PAKISTAN is written in SHAHMUKHI SCRIPT (same script used for URDU) Actually the Pakistani MUSLIMS also REJECTED "Punjabi in GURMUKHI SCRIPT" for the same reason the Jansanghi/aryasamajists HINDUS rejected it - that is Gurmukhi is script of SGGS. The SGGS alone SAVED GURMUKHI...without SGGS..there would be no more Gurmukhi by now...

    2. Both the Muslims of Pakistan and the Punjabi Hindus know very well that PUNJABI can ONLY be written 100% as is IN GURMUKHI....shahmukhi/devnagree DISTORT PUNJABI in many ways as these Scripts are NOT suited to PUNJABI...one reason why GURU JI used the GURMUKHI SCRIPT to write SGGS in.

    3. I also beleive that Guru Gobind Singh ji gathered the 52 Kavis at his darbar to write earlier TEXTS in the GURMUKHI SCRIPT so as to POPULARISE the SCRIPT of SGGS. Some like Bhai Nand Lal goya continued to sue the URDU SCRIPT..amny others used GURMUKHI....even though the language is Brijbhasha..or sanskrit etc. Thus we have Many HINDU religious Texts but in GURMUKHI....DG is also in GURMUKHI SCRIPT. Guru Ji was attempting to make GUMUKHI SCRIPT popular....

    4. TODAY..in its Homeland PUNJAB due to ANTI_GURMUKHI/PUNJABI powers to be in AUTHORITY....Punjabi language and GURMUKHI SCRIPT BOTH are being *******ized and destroyed slowly. The Language is being heavily adulterated with HINDI/Sanskrit words which are actually DEAD and meaningless...loh patt gamnni instead of the RAILWAY which everyone knows and is popular...ON many Govt Signboards..the Script is Gurmukhi but the language is HINDI...a subtle way of destroying two birds with one stone...many signboards carry WRONG spellings on purpose..Doordarshan TV provides many many mistakes on its Gurmukhi/Punjabi signs on a regular basis..there is no excuse for such simple mistakes after PUNJABI ha sbeen First langauge of Punjab for 60 years...its disappearing form Schools as well...hardly any Punjabi knows or reads Gurmukhi script..all write Punjabi in DEVNAGREE script..esp in Delhi rajasthan Haryana etc...

    5 PUNJABI however has CONQUERED NEW continents..in canada UK etc it RULES !! Its a Fact that Vancouver in Canada has MORE PUNJABI SIGNS in GURMUKHI than the entire Punjab put together !! in Canada its SECOND Language in Govt Schools..in UK its a MAJOR Language as well....AS long as we have the SGGS...PUNJABI in GURMUKHI will live ON...
     
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  12. prakash.s.bagga

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    Very strange comments indeed.No one can deny that for saving punjabi language ,Gurmukhi script is vital but I somewhat differ with your views that it is SGGS is only saving Punjabi,
    Gurmukhi being the script of SGGS ji does not conclude that the whole of SGGS is in Punjabi language.There are several dilects in SGGs different from Punjabi Dialect.This is important to understand.

    How we have translitrated SGGS in English .Here the script is not English script but Roman Script why?
    One can write even English language in Gurmukhi script.The beauty of Gurmukhi script is that most of the languages on Indian Sub continent can be written in Gurmukhi or Devnagri script .
    One can veryfy that SGGS written in Devnagri script is the same as in Gurmuhi script .
    In SGGS although the script is Gurmukhi but the grammar is that of SANSKRIT pattern.That is how the graamar of Gurmukhi script differes from the grammar of Gurmukhi script for Punjabi language.
    We are totally ignoring this aspect of Gurmukhi script in SGGS and that for Punjabi language.
    Since we apply grammar of Punjabi language to SGGS we are unable to get to the true understanding of the messages .

    Prakash.s.Bagga
     
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  13. prakash.s.bagga

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    One should be very clear about What is Language and What is Script?
    One can look a message Jan 03-2009 at SPN by Aman Singh Ji where it is nicely clarified as

    Remember this

    Punjabi is Language
    Gurmukhi is Script

    These two are different and one should understand this accordingly.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  14. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Devnagree script already existed in Guru jis time....and IF devnagree is perfect ?? as stated...and adequate..its strange why Guru Ji took the trouble to stress on GURMUKHI SCRIPT...a script which necessitated so much extra effort ...introduction..teaching..spreading..usage.... Imho Guru ji found Devnagree to be INADEQUATE....and INCOMPLETE for the purpose of GURBANI. Thats why it was discarded...in favour of new GURMUKHI.

    There is NO "English script"...the script is "Roman". Same script also for FRENCH...and a few other languages..in Europe. So a person may recognise the ABC..but if he only knows ENGLISH..and the language used is FRENCH..he wont get a word...just as many here can "recognize" the word - PISAU...and even pronounce it correctly..because they know and cna read "ENGLISH"....but since the Language is Malay ..they wont know what the word means...(it means Knife).MALAY is another Language that uses the ROMAN SCRIPT ( although the more fundamental muslim malays like to use MODIFIED URDU called JAWI to write Malay) as they feel the roman alphabet is westernised...while the others say the Jawi is Arabic..so whats Malay about THAT ??.

    2. The Gurmukhi SCRIPT is the ONLY PERFECT one for PUNJABI. No other script comes close.....and Gurmukhi survives today only because its used in SGGS. ALL the FONTS used for Gurmukhi were for the purpose of writing SGGS GURBANEE....and almost ALL the effort was undertaken PRIVATELY....with neither the SGPC nor the Indian or Punjab govts showing any interest/input of resources...Sardar THIND did this monumental task all alone way back in the 1990s...only NOW are others coming in....because NOW GURMUKHI is on the Net and making waves...its too large to "ignore" even Microsoft has Fonts for PUNJABI...embedded in its OPS.
    3. Simply said..Gurmukhi is script and Punjabi is Language for which GURMUKHI was CREATED....there is no Gurmukhi langauge and there is no punjabi script...BUT the TWO are inseparable....
     
  15. Ambarsaria

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    Prakash.s.bagga ji I have some comments and these are not necessarily complementary of your positions.

    You have absolutely no right let alone should be shameful of thought other than that “Punjabi with Gurmukhi script is also what Guru ji gave us as part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji”.

    Prakash.S.Bagga ji Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses a standard dialect (also known as a standardized dialect or "standard language") as per Guru ji’s use of it and the writings as adapted and included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by them.

    You or anyone else at this juncture are not going to set any new rules for it. The Punjabi language with Gurmukhi script comes from them and as they saw, developed and penned it.

    The Guru ji saw it fit to recognize and hence let it be included, some vocabulary from other languages based on writings of others, but with phonetics and meanings well understood in the Punjab and Punjabi of the day.

    Prakash.S.Bagga ji to transliterate is , “to represent or spell in the characters of another alphabet”. You should know by your many failed and imaginary attempts at transliteration by now.

    You have uniquely used upper and lower case only without phonetic accents as by Dr. Thind to represent “Onkur”, “Dulankar”, “Sihari”, “Bihari”, etc. Even a child will tell you that you cannot transliterate Punjabi into English using just upper and lower case letters and associated sounds. There are not enough sounds that can be so created to represent without phonetic accents.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Your statement is epitome of nonsense. Can you review the above two sets of scripts with non-100% 1:1 mapping and recognize that what you are posing is simply a falsehood and an insult to Gurmukhi script and Punjabi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. One can make the constructs to sound close enough but not identical.

    Punjabi script is not a subset (I hope you understand what is meant by set and subset) of Devnagri script and that will be the only way that Gurmukhi based Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji could have been possibly transliterated into Devnagri. Hence any Devnagri stuff may appear close but it is an insult to claim what you do above.

    Prakash.S.Bagga ji here you go with more nonsense by inventing new things to describe whether things are identical or not. You use the phrase “the grammar is that of SANSKRIT pattern. I find it derogatory of you to state this. If you went to a good school, learned good Punjabi taught by a good teacher, the word Sanskrit would not even need to be mentioned.

    The Punjabi and Gurmukhi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji self stands. There is use of words or vocabulary from other languages which become by inclusion part of Punjabi/Gurmukhi that our Guru ji gave us. This is how languages evolve.

    Prakash.S.Bagga ji since you are insulting every Sikh who only learned Punjabi with Gurmukhi script, let me give you back some of your own treatment.

    I suggest you rinse your mind and get rid of Devnagri/Hindi and Sanskrit garbage out of your head and really know what Gurmukhi and Punjabi stand for. You will then realize how they are sufficient to understand the gift and messages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji given to us by our Guru ji.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
  16. prakash.s.bagga

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    Well this point is very important for appreciation that Gurmukhi script is much perfect than Devnagri script and for that reason Gurmukhi script is perfect and ideal for Gurbanee.

    Therefore we should have cocern for Gurmukhi script so far for understanding of Gurbanee matters.But let us be fair, are we doing this sincererly?

    one can see that according to Punjabi grammar which is taught in all
    schools all over the world there one would not find the grammar of the Gurbanee words like GuRoo-GuRu and GuR, whereas if you apply SANSKRIT Grammar you get to know clear grammar of these three words GuRoo..GuRu and GuR.(This is the basic difference between Pujabi Grammar and Gurbanee Grammar)
    It is very crucial to know the grammar of these three words for correct understanding of Gurbanee That is what I have my personal realisation of past 35 years with Gurbanee.Some or Many may disagree with this but the fact of Gurbanee can not be changed.


    Prakash.s.Bagga
     
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  17. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    I am sure one day you may realise what you have been missing in understanding my views.Nothing more than this

    Prakash.s.Bagga
     
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  18. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Prakash ji

    I, like many others out there am trying to get better grips with gurmukhi translations and transliterations.
    In all honesty I have reviewed your statements many times whilst trying to translate for SELF.
    I'm sorry to say that I, like others have only gained more confusion and misunderstanding. It always seems that you are 'playing' with the languages and playing them against each other.
    Don't get me wrong, I have tried to differentiate between your given words with and without your style of upper and lowercase letters for different phonetics and sounds BUT STILL- I find NO difference in the message that I GET from Guru ji's writings. Maybe this is just me, but I hope this is what the Guru ji intended.

    You keep saying that if we don't apply your method then -we will not understand the true meaning of gurbani- This precise phrase of yours, has got me a little worried at times, I'm sure we all question if we have made the wrong interpretation as I certainly do.
    BUT- I have now realised that Guru ji's bani is written as such that a true understanding is unique for each and every one of us in terms of the 'message' we perceive for it's 'application'.

    I myself have been trying to to do my own translations recently and it's not easy. The IMPORTANT thing that I have learnt whilst pursuing this is that --

    -I may rearrange some words or include extra ones in my translation, but the overall essence of the shabads always results to the SAME. So , no matter how I go about in a circle playing with vocab, the end result or essence of Guru Ji's message is always the same BUT applied personally and therefore differently to each one of us.
    I'm not sure if this is just coincidence or fluke but this has been my result.

    Again, it is like the hukamnamma that everyone will hear at the same time. Now, the essence of the message will be strong and the same as Guru ji intended-BUT, every one of us will apply it to our personal selves in a unique way. That's why everyone always accepts and likes the hukamnama to a high and personal degree.

    This is the beauty of Gurbani. I find if I'm trying to break it down too much to gain more understanding, then I am in fact, sometimes destroying the true essence and drifting away from what Guruji intended in the original source.---*dangerous*---
    What I mean is that personally, I feel I have to be careful that I don't get carried away in translating single words or lines that it ends up tampering the whole shabad and message.
    The gurmukhi script and punjabi as it is- is enough for us to perceive the gift of messages inscribed as Guru ji intended.

    We can kid or fool ourselves into thinking that the word of the shabad means something else because of the way it is written.
    This can be dangerous especially if we fool ourselves into perceiving a totally different message. The words of the guru as they are written, is how he intended we read them.
    Wether I use GuRoo, GuRu and GuR, the message and essence of shabad is still the same. It should make no difference to the 'true' understanding and to me -IT DOESN'T, thankfully.
    I find by playing with these words, I am more likely to drift away rather than get closer to the true message.
    The GIFT of gurbani and shabads is NOT just the language and words used for understanding. BUT, it's the words used to send the MESSAGE to each one of us.
    So, the GIFT is the MESSAGE.

    An example that most of us can relate to is listening to raagis doing kirtan. I notice that some raagis focus too much on the sound and pitch of the words(as is rightfully required in music) that they forget what the true message of the shabad actually was. They seem more focused on timing and music to get the correct chords and notes.-This is good, there is nothing wrong with this as it is required to produce good music at the end of the day.
    BUT, my point is you will ALL have heard the difference when a different raagi will do the exact same shabad, but he is feeling the tue message and essence of the whole shabad that he is singing. This feeling and expression can be felt within him and expressed to all of us, not in the way he carries the notes or anything, but the true 'vibe' of the message will be felt just in the words.
    Me and the rest of the audience will immediately feel the gift of this shabad just because his feeling and expression is IN the message AS WELL as the chords and notes.The sangat will say that he sings from the heart and you can feel it, not just hear it.

    This difference that we can all notice and sense is what is inside the 'gift of a message'.
    This is how certain raagis give us more 'anand', even though their musical style is the same as others, but these others don't quite seem to touch us in the same way.

    This precise 'gift of the message' is what is more important and what the guruji intended. We should be carefull that we don't tamper with the message, regardless of how we try to get the words and translations across.

    Waheguru
    Lucky Singh
     
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    #17 Luckysingh, May 1, 2012
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  19. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    A simple farmer found a piece of some "shining" material in the forest one day...and he picked it up and..looked at it...he was surprised to see what seemed to him to be a picture of his dead father..He took home the material and hid it in the Barn. Every so often he would sneak into the barn and look at his daddy...soon his wife noticed this strange behaviour and decided to spy on him...she noted that he took out something from the hay stack....she waited for him to exit..and then went in and took out the object...OMG she screamed..so this is what hes hiding..the ras.cal..she was out of her clothes in a arge...grabbed the object and ran to the village sarpanch to lodge a complaint against her husband...SEE whats he looking at daily..she screamed pushing the object in front of the sarpanch's Face...OH..Where did your husband get this picture of MY dead daddy..screamed the sarpanch...and whoever looked at the object..couldnt quite understand what the others were screaming about...

    Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is like that MIRROR..the Simple farmer found...Each person who "looked" in it..SAW something DIFFERENT...and thats why we cannot "understand" whats the others are screaming about...What we see is what WE SEE...no one else can SEE the SAME THING...cheerleader
    HECK..I have been looking at this SGGS mirror daily for the past 50 years..FIVE DECADES..on a daily basis alone, with family, with my students.....I "see" a different PICTURE daily...changing each day...once I had no hair on my face..then i had a stubble..then jet black hair a feet long..then streaks of white..then wrinkles..spectacles changed to contact lenses and now to Laser eyes...and IF JUST ME cna CHANGE so MUCH....how can i ever expect to beleive that the SGGS is the SAME....what does mY GURU JI tell me..He says..SATGUR MERA NITT NAVAN..Mera satgur is Daily RENEWED !!! THATS the Bottom line guys..the SATGUR is different for each one of us even on a daily basis....look at HIM..get his MESSAGE which is EXCLUSIVELY FOR YOU and YOU ALONE....
     
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    #18 Gyani Jarnail Singh, May 1, 2012
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  20. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    I must salute ,You are really blessed.
    Prakash.S.Baggga
     
  21. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Prakash ji
    Please share more on this. I want to know how the grammar in SGGS is similar to Sanskrit. Some concrete examples perhaps?

    We know Braj is the most common language in Gurbani. How does this compare with Sanskrit?

    Thanks
     

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