Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Paganism Give me your honest opinions.

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by thecoopes, Feb 13, 2005.

  1. thecoopes

    thecoopes
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    8
    Can anyone see the irony?
    Today in Britain we have peoples from all over the world wanting to live here. All want and expect that their cultures be nurtured. Let any voice be raised by the indigenous population that they are uncomfortable with these foreign cultures and all hell breaks loose! The Asians are by far the most vocal in their demand that we accept their cultures. I find that these festivals that are celebrated are an anathema to me and yet my view is a poor second to the rights of my new fellow citizens! They only have to scream their civil liberties are being infringed and my view is now turned into me being accused of racism.

    The report below is from Reuters Sunday 13 Feb 05

    BHOPAL, India (Reuters) – Hard line Hindus have vowed to disrupt Saint Valentine's Day celebrations in India's central state of Madhya Pradesh, saying the Western love festival was a violation of India's traditional culture.
    Saint Valentine's Day has become increasingly popular in India in recent years, led by retailers selling red balloons, velvet pillows and teddy bears to mark the festival.
    But the growing popularity of the day in officially secular, but mainly Hindu, India has in recent years sparked countrywide protests which have sometimes turned violent.
    "We will oppose it tooth and nail because the concept of Valentine's Day celebrations has come from the West and through it an attempt is being made to spoil Indian culture," said Devendra Rawat, a member of the Bajrang Dal, on Saturday.

    Can anyone see the Irony here? Or is it just me?

    John
     
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Integrity And Honesty In Discussion Questions and Answers Sep 9, 2016
    Spiritual The Honest Truth of My Beliefs Blogs Oct 30, 2015
    RSS ideologue teaching human values ‘dishonestly’: Sikh body states Interfaith Dialogues Jan 15, 2013
    India Manmohan Singh: I will personally work to provide honest, more efficient government Breaking News Dec 31, 2011
    India Myth of Manmohan Singh being Honest, busted by Former IT Commissioner (Adl) Breaking News Aug 25, 2011

  3. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    62
    Being an Englishman I fully understand where you are coming from and I agree. I guess we have to be proud that our country is so multi-cultural and accepting of others, but the problem is, are we loosing traditional English culture in the process and is this a good thing or a bad thing?
     
  4. ravisingh

    ravisingh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interesting issue.

    I have to disagree with the both of you. Although I am from Canada and can't really say too much about the situation there I will breifly offer my views on assimilation vs integration and the Canadian situation as I see it.

    When speaking of integrating immigrants into a nation it is important to see it as form of a negotiation. The hosting culture "agrees" to make adjustments for the minority group and the minority group of course is already making adjustments. This is in stark contrast to assimilating a minority group where the onus is entirely on the minority group to conform. Assimilation most often leads to heightened ethnic/racial tensions whereas integration tends to lead to more harmonized relations between groups. The integration models is ultimately more respectful. Of course the immigrant minority groups make a number of changes (language, values, etc.) whereas the majority group is asked to make very minor ones (usually festivals, etc.)

    I am interested to hear from the both of you which "English" traditions are being lost.

    When speaking on these issues I think it is important to look at various indicators of the success/failure of both strategies (assimilation vs integration). Using the Canadian experience I can list a few: 1)language use; 2)political participation; 3)rates of citizenship vs permanent residency. Now if we look at the figures for the above 3 indicators (there are many more that I can't think of at present) before Canada adopted an integration vs assimilation strategy we find that they have all increased remarkably after integration was adopted if we use the asian groups as an example. The number of immigrants to Canada who took courses to learn and eventually become proficient in the use of French or Englsh in Canada increased remarkably, asian immigrants voted more often and held public office far more than before (the multicultural act) and more asians took on citizenship vs just being immigrants. It seems to me that integration has certainly been a better approach then assimilation given the Canadian example.
     
  5. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    62
    RaviSingh I never said English traditions are being lost, I said are we losing English traditions?
    I do think that in a multicultural society, all cultures will be watered down to some extent [not a bad thing] due to integration.
    Look at Americanised Islam... they have t-shirts/baseball about Allah... but Muslims in Asia do not do that.
     
  6. ravisingh

    ravisingh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    0
    I apologize Caramel Chocolate I guess I misunderstood your statement that "as and Englishmen agree" and I read you as saying through the rest of your post that English traditions are indeed being lost but this may or not be a bad thing.

    I agree with you that "cultures" will be watered down to some extent. But supposed tranditions are always changing and my experience in Asian countries is that they are watering down their traditions far more rapidly and consistently then immigrants from those same countries in Canada.

    I still don't understand how traditions are being "lost" though. For example you cite T-shirts and caps. What tradition is being lost here --the tradition of NOT making caps and t-shirts? Even thecoopes's post cites an article about a fringe hindu group in India not endorsing Valenite's day (hardly a tradition of any sort but rather a creation of corporations) there not in Britain. What is being "lost"?
     
  7. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    62
    When I mean being lost, I mean being watered down all because of the existance of other cultures..
    But hey, I can't see myself giving up tea, pie and mash anytime soon :up:
     
  8. thecoopes

    thecoopes
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    8


    O if only these people who flood into our country and take our passports that show they are now British, would in actual fact have some allegiance to Britain and a love of being part of a great country with opportunities for all.
    The destruction of Britain is also a result of our government seeking to make us a piece in the jigsaw that is the EU super state. Britain and being British is made out to be anathema so for immigrant cultures having their own agenda within this madness is overlooked by the high priests of multicultural madness.

    O by the way I know that there are many fine people that were originaly immigrants and are indeed a credit to this country.
    But this reply is in respect to the original post about St Valentines day being feared by the Indians as an intrusion into their culture so it needs to be read in the context of that and not stand on its own





    Best wishes to all.
     
  9. ravisingh

    ravisingh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    0
    thecoopes,

    Just a couple of things:
    1)Can you show any indicators that suggest that immigrants are not integrating as well as they used to before? I mentioned a number of clear indicators in the Canadian experience that suggests the very opposite of what you are saying.

    2)On the subject of "lost traditions" can you name even one? Last time I checked the language of government is English, the language of commerce is English, all of the holidays are christian, etc.

    The monarchy is still in place, the flag is still the official flag of the country --this has not changed. I would like to hear of your no go areas for whites. My family came to Canada in 1906 and there have been very few places where they could work, live, etc. In fact as recent as 1976 my dad was denied the right to purchase land because the property in that area was "not available to east indians". Anglo Saxon culture is nowhere near being destroyed. Again show me indicators beyond anecdotal information.

    Isn't the point of having services at all is that they be effective? If you have services that only serve a certain segment of the population extremely ineffective and inequitable? You want to be able to serve as many people as possible and not perpetuate inequalities (a very English tradition by the way one that IMHO clearly outweighs what language a service is provided in). I'll give you a good example again within the Canadian experience. After the unfortunate bombing of an Air India flight in 1985, the federal Canadian police force were not able to crack the case because they could not relate or speak to the community (at the time there were only 2 punjabi speaking officers available in the whole police force!) Only when the Canadian police decided to learn more about the community and hire punjabi language speakers were they able to make any headway. In this case it is clear that by not acknowledging the importance of other cultures/languages the police were not able to do their jobs.

    So if you truly are concerned with equity it only makes sense that certain accomodations are made for groups to level the playing field a little.

    You seem to believe that a state can be neutral in how it treats all of its diverse group of people. This is not the case. States always give preferental treatment to certain groups/activities. For example, most countries have national art galleries and support the arts but they do not support things like bowling or such activies. In this way, states give preferential treatment to particular groups. If minority groups ask for similar allowances they are villifed in the press and by members of the majority group.

    The supposed destruction of English traditions is hardly what you make it out to be but rather the preservation of the most important English tradition of all --valuing equity.

    I am not meaning to paint with you a "racist" brush --I know after discussions with you that you are the furthest thing from a racist so if any of my views come across as a villification of you I apologize this is not my intent --chalk it up to quick writing and fatigue (it's 1 in the morning where I am right now!)

    Take care,

    Ravi Singh
     
  10. Arvind

    Arvind
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Contributor Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    2,365
    Likes Received:
    379
    I realize that thecoopes is one of the best contributors on SPN forums, and I like the way, he participates in discussions and asks thought provoking questions with an unbiased mind.

    However ravisingh's reply stuck in my mind -
    Is that in Canada? That s so open discrimination then!

    Regards.
     
  11. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Das agree to theecoopie that there are many persons from ethnic miniorities in UK,who take the libral system for a ride.

    If they are not controled then they may spoil the British culture.But this must not be said in general sense that all are Bad.

    Then coming to India.There in MP or Madhya Pradeh there are no Britishers who are been prevented from doing there regious functiun.Nor ever any(Native) Britisher who takes Indian citizen is ever descrimnatived upon.In Fact in Indian parilament's lower house there are one or two seats where minorities of Anglo Indian are nominated if otherwise they are not elected by public.

    Indians respect Britishers,He have Ruskin Bond,Mark Tully and many such persons some are Indian citizens other are just like visitors.Other Americans like Tom Alter or Bob Cristo also are respected.

    Then what is so fuss about St. vlentine days.So sir,In India there is an uneducated/Semi educated neo rich class. They have not leanrt the good things of western culture.In this case Thau shalt not commit adultary from holy Bible but have rather taken the notion of free sex.

    On Valentine days this sort of thing without the knowledge of condoms etc. is done.We call such class of persons wh o want to copy west only for there matterialitics consumer oriented life and not the cultural value of those nations as 'Kawa Chala hans Ke Chaal Apni Bhool Gaya'.when Crow(Raven) tried to copy the ways of swan it forgot its own ways.

    So in India there is no problem with western value or culture but when that is insted misused by foolish people thats is the main toruble.BBC therefore is trying fast to educate at grass root level the various persons about sex and AIDS related education.Else it will take an epidemic proportion in Here,Unlike you UK here there are so many people that state can not take care of all.

    Then there are thugs in sub urban regions,which let young one enter into flesh trade or free sex and then they will make a porn film of it.They will make profit by it or even black mail young childern.Police often can not help(Here it is not like that your UK police as they are more busy to tackle more henous crimes like terroism)Thugs can even blackmail young children that they may make film public if they are not paid.

    As per Indian law girl below 16 years can not go for sex.18 years old can maary.And boy above 21 can marry.

    Then coming to Hindu parties.They are worse then your BNP but they are often kept at bay by people and law.Thats the reason that at present we in India have Both president and Prime minister from minorities.Hindu are largest about 80% of Indian population.We have Sikh Prime minster(Sikhs are 1.9% of total population) Yes Military chife is also a Sikh.Then we have Muslim (12% of population) President,he is of totaly differnt race.

    And in fact actual chef executive of India,who controls Prime Minister is a Christian(3% of the population) and she is not of Indian origeon but from Itlay in europe.

    In UK So far other then having nassir hussain as captain of Criket team no such things are at least by Das not seen.

    In order to tackle the mence of illegal immigrents and asylum seeker two things can be done.

    1. Laws to be made stricter.
    2. Survilance could be made stricter.
    3. Some one found misusing the welfare benfit can be stripped of citizenship and sent back to native place packing(during naturalisation these can be as pre condition).

    Das has seen a bloody Bad tendency in UK by some bloody Asians(Das is also Asian so no one msut take offense).

    They come and live and UK till geting UK passport,When they start to get persion then they go back to live in India.

    Often there are some Idiots who drink or even trim there beard or even do not keep 5Ks yet they seek asylum for there casue of 'Khailstan'.They aRe Hardly Sikh yet they can convince home office that they are fighting for Sikh casue.There are very few genunine cases then fake one.

    Same can be said for PakistaNIS,Bangladeshis or Sri Lankan or say Somaliyans.There are only 10000 baijunis in the world.But in Uk there are 4 times more then 10000 people have been granted the refuge status as Baijoonois,.

    At last Das can say,UK can accomodate good people frommworld over but wrong people may be returned.

    And in India wrong things of western culture are taken in and not even a single postive point of westren value is taken.In West true christians hate divorce but Alas in India there are good propotion of adultary or divorce in christian.It would have been better if they would have been hindus if they were not to do sin after becoming Chrsitian.
     
  12. thecoopes

    thecoopes
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    8
    Dear Ravi,

    One thing I need to get out right now and indeed this has become part of the overall problem in Britain. Your last bit first.

    I am not meaning to paint with you a "racist" brush --I know after discussions with you that you are the furthest thing from a racist so if any of my views come across as a villification of you I apologize this is not my intent --chalk it up to quick writing and fatigue (it's 1 in the morning where I am right now!)
    The frustration I feel on this is bordering at times on hysteria as although you have qualified the Racist label with your belief that I’m not one, I find that as this is an open forum, any argument that contains a list of expressions such as “immigrant” or “my country” or “I don’t like what is happening” or “White” – “Brown” – “Black” – “Yellow” immediately has the writers views devalued by those who have no semblance of rational thought process reaching for the Racist label in a pathetic attempt to gain some moral high ground.


    So once and once only.

    racist
    noun
    [C]

    someone who believes that other races are not as good as their own and therefore treats them unfairly:


    Now everyone does understand the meaning of racist? So please my belief is. “No one race has any superiority over another all are equally, as good and as bad. All mankind is equal”! So please don’t devalue this discussion by reaching for the RACISM LABEL!!!!!!!!!!! Please do not let this forum degenerate into the name calling of the AhluBayt shiaChat.

    Discussing immigration and using the term immigrant is not racist.


    Please feel free to blast my opinions to pieces, I have no problem with any of you with passion destroying my posts, we’re all adult and all of us can learn, so here goes.



    I thought that I was a reasonable person, however I have to admit that I have been taught so much on the SPN about fairness and decency. I had lost my belief in all religions and I viewed all as fanatical. So to find a body of people who were passionate about their beliefs but also possessed tolerance and a willingness to engage in a two-way dialog was quite a shock!

    Start:

    Any country that closed its doors to the outside world and refused to allow immigration would be worse off for their actions. Just as inbreeding within a single genetic pool causes degeneration and weakness so to isolation of a social order causes self obsessed inward looking myopia. We as a country have had a tradition of welcoming people from all over the world and although this has not always been a perfect experience for everyone by and large it has benefited both the individual and the country.

    So what’s the big deal now?

    What everyone needs to understand about the present state of affairs in Britain is this:

    We have a situation that is causing the general population to feel, rightly or wrongly that our way of life as a British nation is under serious threat. First and foremost this is not directly the fault of the people who are immigrants! No, this is because the now government is hell bent on Britain becoming part of some European Super state in which all countries shake off their single identities and become Eurotopia. To do this the zealots who are pushing us to this abomination need to break the identities of the individual cultures that are the British, in particular the English. So their view on anything that identifies with this, is slowly being expunged. Part of the process is the failing experiment of multiculturalism, which basically is the belief that we as a nation should become indistinguishable. This though is just causing a vacuum of identity, and as any schoolboy knows nature abhors a vacuum so into this vacuum is rushing all these immigrant cultures and this is changing the face of Britain.



    Just a couple of things:
    1)Can you show any indicators that suggest that immigrants are not integrating as well as they used to before?


    I am 58 years old and most of my working life I have worked with people from all over the world who have come to Britain, the majority of these people have been keen to be part of this country and although its natural to group together they gave the impression that they were British and were working for the general good of both themselves and their new country.

    Now though, because of this governments obsession with the afore mentioned madness these people are free to follow their own agendas and these agendas are mainly inward looking self-interests. None of the hundreds of different ethnic groups has the need to learn our language; indeed we have an Iraqi councillor in the North of England that cannot speak English so we have to pay for an interpreter for this man so he can understand the council meetings! Street names in some parts of London have been removed and the names rewritten in the language of whatever that community is. I have been to factories that have five languages posted on the toilet doors to tell the five ethnic groups that they should wash their hands after using the toilet!!!

    (I was told in one of these factories by an Indian who had lived in this country for 40 years that this is madness and would only lead to trouble!)

    We have Muslim communities calling for the government to allow them to run their part of the country under Islamic law! So would you call this integrating well? This is just the tip of the iceberg.

    I mentioned a number of clear indicators in the Canadian experience that suggests the very opposite of what you are saying. In Canada you do not have the morons running the country that we have over here.


    2)On the subject of "lost traditions" can you name even one? Last time I checked the language of government is English, the language of commerce is English, all of the holidays are christian, etc.

    Um? Please not lost, in the process of being destroyed! You remember the question that started this discussion? It was the feeling of the Indian community that a Western festival was: Valentine's Day celebrations has come from the West and through it an attempt is being made to spoil Indian culture," Now we may disagree with their view, but remember its their culture and they have the right to express their concerns, we should also respect their views.



    I am sure you are aware that we can see a process of destruction as it takes place. For example, costal erosion may only take place slowly, but the end result is assured and that is the changed face of a countries coastline, so to with what happens to a national identity the process may be slow but the end results can be clearly seen.

    As you have read one of the most international languages in the world is being circumvented.

    You say about “holidays being Christian”! Did you know that in Britain today that Christmas is being viewed as an anathema by these high priests of multiculturalism, to the extent that we mustn’t upset the ethnic groups by the display of overt Christian symbols, Nativity scenes etc even the name Christmas holiday has been changed in some places to Winterval in an attempt to make it more palatable to the ethnic communities. The prime minister’s own Christmas cards were designed not to cause offence and so did not say happy Christmas, street lights and Christmas trees were not allowed by some communities as it was considered offensive. There is an almost endless list of things that are said to be causes for offence that we as a people are encouraged to surrender in the interests of racial harmony!

    The monarchy is still in place, the flag is still the official flag of the country --this has not changed. I would like to hear of your no go areas for whites.

    It is common now in area’s that are particularly Asian to have no go areas for Whites, we had around 18months ago two lads who strayed into a Muslim area where one of them was murdered simply because he was a white face in the wrong place. The police too have difficulty in these areas because any attempt to chase criminals in them is a cause for the ethnic population to start racial trouble. We have ethnic groups who have come to this country with the claim they want to escape interracial trouble! These groups then continue on our streets the fighting that took place between them in the countries from which they came!



    My family came to Canada in 1906 and there have been very few places where they could work, live, etc. In fact as recent as 1976 my dad was denied the right to purchase land because the property in that area was "not available to east indians". Anglo Saxon culture is nowhere near being destroyed. Again show me indicators beyond anecdotal information.

    Quite rightly you ask for fact and not anecdotal information. All the above is fact and can be easily checked.

    Isn't the point of having services at all is that they be effective? If you have services that only serve a certain segment of the population extremely ineffective and inequitable? You want to be able to serve as many people as possible and not perpetuate inequalities (a very English tradition by the way one that IMHO clearly outweighs what language a service is provided in). I'll give you a good example again within the Canadian experience. After the unfortunate bombing of an Air India flight in 1985, the federal Canadian police force were not able to crack the case because they could not relate or speak to the community (at the time there were only 2 punjabi speaking officers available in the whole police force!) Only when the Canadian police decided to learn more about the community and hire punjabi language speakers were they able to make any headway. In this case it is clear that by not acknowledging the importance of other cultures/languages the police were not able to do their jobs.
    No I’m afraid I strongly disagree with that opinion, the police may have needed to speak punjabi to be able to succeed in their policing within that community. However rather than there being a requirement for the police of Canada to learn punjabi it should have been a indisputable requirement within each ethnic community to speak the language of the country they now choose as home!

    You yourself said:“When speaking of integrating immigrants into a nation it is important to see it as form of a negotiation. So in our negotiation our requirement is for you to learn English.



    The hosting culture "agrees" to make adjustments for the minority group and the minority group of course is already making adjustments”.

    What adjustments are already being made by the minority group?
    So if you truly are concerned with equity it only makes sense that certain accomodations are made for groups to level the playing field a little.

    Level the playing field a little! There is no such thing as a little and indeed this is what most of the problems in Britain are at the moment in that the levelling is all one way.


    You seem to believe that a state can be neutral in how it treats all of its diverse group of people. This is not the case. States always give preferental treatment to certain groups/activities.

    Neutral no, fair yes. But I strongly believe that if there is any bias then it should be to the culture of the indigenous population. Why were the British eventually forced out of India? It was because the Indians to whom the country rightly belonged were sick of the British immigrants dictating how the indigenous population should live their lives and it mattered not that the British had bought some good things to India.

    For example, most countries have national art galleries and support the arts but they do not support things like bowling or such activies. In this way, states give preferential treatment to particular groups. If minority groups ask for similar allowances they are villifed in the press and by members of the majority group.

    You need to live in Britain this is not the case, indeed it’s the other way around and we are the ones that are vilified for seeking our interests.

    The supposed destruction of English traditions is hardly what you make it out to be but rather the preservation of the most important English tradition of all --valuing equity.
    No its not and may I leave this final thought by way of an illustration.

    After visiting different countries and sampling their foods you decide to lay on a banquet for your friends to share the experience of the different cultures you’ve visited. The food is prepared and laid out before your gests, however as they sit down to eat you serve all the food in one bucket all mixed together, now though instead of the beautiful meals all you have is a bucket of pigs swill. This is multiculturalism!
    (The banquet table is the world, the individual meals are the worlds cultures the bucket is Britain.)



    Pleased to remain your friend and fellow human being.



    John C
     
  13. Amerikaur

    Amerikaur
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    9
    And now for something completly different.

    Christianity is in decline. Catholics at least have their schools as a foundation. Protestants have no such network - they got mighty comfortable being in the majority and made little attempts to preserve there own heritage. They wanted the government or the public schools to do their legwork, now they are crying foul

    I hear across Europe "Our churches are empty, but our mosques are full." Everybody is panicking over the Muslims.

    Why isn't anyone angry at the CHRISTIANS for not keeping a message that encourages and excites Americans/Canadians/Britons to follow, respect and be PROUD in their Christian heritage?

    =========================================

    Boston, 2003. Cardinal Law, the former head of the Archdiocese of Boston, knew for years that there were Catholic priests indulging themselves with underage boys. He did nothing about it. The scandal breaks. He does nothing about it. Does the Vatican expel him? No, he gets transferred to Rome and offered a $75,000/year salary. The victims sue the Archdiocese and reach a multi-million dollar settlement. The Archdiocese in return closes 100 churches in Massachusetts and ursurps funds intended for charties to pay the settlement. The Vatican shrugs. The Catholic PEOPLE in Massachusetts are left defrauded out of their money, defrauded out of their faith's reputation, and defrauded out of their church community.

    ======

    NYC, September 23, 2001. While New Yorkers are still bleeding, Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Sikh, Muslim, and Hindu clergymen banded together for an interfaith ceremony at Yankee Stadium. Followers of all faiths were enthusiastically in attendance. Lutheran minister David Benke asked for and received permission from the Reverend Gerald Kieschnick, president of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, to participate. The LCMS saw the action as preaching to "pagans", suspended both, and ordered Rev. Benke to "apologize to all Christians".

    ===========================================


    Instead of the complimenary works of open-minded liberals, and legacy-shoring conservatives...

    ...we have conflicting extremes of the bell curve that leave the large center open and stranded.

    ILLEGAL immigration is a big problem in the US. But the Blue side wants illegals as future voters. The Red side wants illegas as cheap labor. The American people pay the price. We might as well continue to call the politicians BLUE and RED because any hope of ideology and leadership has been squandered to greed!

    Na mei Democrat, Na mei Republican.

    Coop, I agree with you that there is irony. And I agree with you that there are major problems in how our county's societies have come about.

    But how can we blame alll of the problem on immigrants or racial minorities, when the Nationals and the Anglos are commiting the same sins?
     
  14. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Das here wants to add a point to Mr thecoopies assertion.Indians are never averse of immigration.So they have problems with any immigrents from west.At present due to out sourcing there has been a spurt of peple from west comin here and working.

    The reason for opposing British rule by some people was to replace it by another bad rule of high castes(aryan races) in guise of pseudo democracy.Some wanted a dictorship of lefts.Some wanted theocracy.First option happened in India and third in Pakistan.

    India became independent more due to weakening of empire after second world war.And if British still wanted to rule then they had to compete two super powers(which they could not).AS bothof the super power had there own agenda in India.USSR succeded to make India her virtual colony while USA did same to Pakistan.

    Then reagarding Indian community opposing St. Valentines day.Sir Majority of Indian are in rural areas and are unaware of such issues as they are more bothered for two squares of meals.Then in cities due to economic boom majority of the people are getting westernised.Those who could not succed or could not adjust due to thier loosing of high position held since generations due there last ditch effort to maintain or restore it they are only at the most 20 % of the people.

    They are those high caste racial people ,who belive that they have to rule other labour dooing people as there birth right.So western culture and globalisation has improved the carreer prospect in India at present as a person with hard work and skill can reach high position.So these persons who think wealth or high position is there birth life are unable to digest this thing.So they restore to the zingoism of nationalism or hinduism or indianism.

    Thinking them as whole Indian community is wrong.As Das(vijaydeep Singh) is an Indian so das can say this with surity.Akal Bless.
     
  15. thecoopes

    thecoopes
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    8
    Dear Friends Amerikaur & vijaydeep Singh

    As always with SPN there is much to learn and the views of others open doors on a different perspective and so help to stop inflexibility of the mind.

    Ok, now do you then think that with the passing centuries the changing face of all our countries is what will happen and so we should just sit back and accept the inevitable?

    Eg; At one time in Britain we had the tribe of the Jutes, Celts, Picts, Angles, Saxons, Danes, etc etc.

    But we now have a mix of all these and this I am sure is the same for all countries.

    As its said, “What will it all matter in a hundred years”?

    NB: I forgot to add, USA, Australia, New Zeeland, South America, and Canada for examples all had their indigenous populations either ousted or subjugated by immigrants but today though we respect those countries and the peoples that live there as the acknowledged status quo, with very little thought for the original peoples. (We may pay lip service with expressions of, Native American or Australian etc but in truth they won’t get their countries back)



    Best wishes :shifty:



    John C
     
  16. Arvind

    Arvind
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Contributor Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    2,365
    Likes Received:
    379
    Off-Topic: This is a great discussion going on. Just in case, if you are not aware of, I would like to point out that real time chat is installed here on SPN. Anytime, contributors discuss there in Live chat, and find something useful to share with mute readers like me, please do so.

    With regards, arvind.
     
  17. ravisingh

    ravisingh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello all,

    Sorry I haven't been able to reply until recently I have been quite busy as of late but I am very interested in this issue.

    First things first. I was not and would not comdemn anyone as a racist for espousing such views. I think it is healthy to have such a dialogue. My reason in stating this was so that others didn't take you to be a racist. And by the racist I meant to be referring to was the much more subtle sort that is far more prevalent than the oft demonized skinhead types. This more subtle type of racism often has at its core a demand for "equality" where this means that all groups should be treated in the same way --I completely reject this notion and this is the source of our difference as far as I can tell.

    The argument that I was advancing relies on subtlies in the meaning of equality. People often confuse the mathematical sense of equality (2=2) for the same meaning that it should have in political/social discourse. I will try to clarify. When I am using the term "equality" I mean equal opportunity. Equal opportunity in this context means that in order for everyone to be accorded the same opportunities/treatment a state/society must offer different services/rights for particular groups. For example, if a police force has a rule that no religious attire must be worn in order to refelct the state's impartiality the citizen's expectation of perceived impartial treatment must be balanced against the officers right to follow his religion. Should the Sikh then be allowed to wear his turban or should he be expected to conform? The mathematical sense of equality would seem to dictate that he should conform as he should not be given "special treatment". However, when we look at this issue with the lens of the importance of equal opportunity I think that most would agree that the Sikhs right to follow his religion outweighs the citizens perception of the state's religious impartiality. A case such as this is bolstered further when we consider what state services are meant to do --ie. be effective. A police force more reflective of the ethnic diversity of a state has a better chance of policing effectively.

    Thecoopes you mentioned in your post that although you do not have indicators you have a plethora of anecdotal experience. Let me tell you about some of my experience. Up until quite recently, I worked as a senior policy advisor for the Immigration department of Canada and served as the department's chair of diversity for a number of years (please note however that everything that I say in this forum and hence also in this post are my own views and do not necesarrily reflect the policy/views of the immigration minister or department). In the course of my work, I have examined many anecdotes, editorials in Canadian newspapers, etc. that paint the same dire picture as you do (people not needing to speak english, decline of traditions, etc). As a policy officer I can't rely on this information but rather must search for quantifiable measures/indicators to tell the tale. When these indicators are examined one finds that although the anecdotes may be true the conclusions that are drawn from them are quite incorrect. For example, if people really are "living in their own ethnic worlds" one could examine poll results for language use, access to language courses by the group in question, rates of citizenship aquisition, rates of political activisim/mobilisation, etc. I think you would be shocked to find that when you examine them you will find that ethnic groups are more active and integrated than you realize. This suggests that the strategy of providing services in other languages and other accomodations made for groups works far more effectively than other measures. The problem with anecdotal information is that it does not provide the entire picture.

    Amerikaur –nice post! I especially like this:





    Arvind, this most certainly did happen in Canada and there are many even more explicitly racist things that are a part of my Canadian heritage. The internment of the Japanese, genocide of the first nations, racial land covenants, the Chinese head tax, the direct journey provision and Canada’s eugenics program are but a few.



    Vijaydeep Very interesting post.



    Thecoopes you raise an interesting point about the eventual amalgamation of ethnicities (Jutes, Celts, etc.). I must, in true philosophical tradition complicate the issue with further terminology! (Philosophy is such a love-hate type thing with me) I think that you are right that eventually these differences will in all likelihood meld together into something wholly different than exists today. I suppose the hope is that this will be done with more sensitivity than in the past –with consideration of different cultural ways of doing things for example so that one culture does not supercede the rest. Now for the terminology. There are “thick” and there are “thin” identities. A thick notion of identity would mean that everyone shares the same “race”, religion, language, etc. A thin notion of identity would mean that people share the same basic values and a shared language of commerce political life. I think that the aim for modern states should be the latter. So although to be British the “race” religion, etc. wouldn’t matter as much as a shared sense of values. I hope that the concessions that are made to certain groups to ensure integration are in the vein of creating a thin sense of identity rather than a thick one.


    Love and respect to all,


    Ravi Singh
     
  18. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    86
    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Das may be trying to say one more thing over here.Due to globalisation and convergence,we are moving near the future where world may become a global village.

    So nationalism be it Indianism or Britishism will be becoming a bit weaker and internationalism will be becoming stronger.May be one day what today are sovergn nationas will be becoming just a state of world nations.EU could be an example of this.

    Yes people like elderly like the father of Das are nostelgic about there native Indian culture but it is in vain.

    In UK Das can say that in England area.Young Urban one are more near to american culture like there are Satanist churches,Gay marriges or live in relationship etc.Das think that in old traditional British socity say in rurual Areas such thing may not be encouraged.

    So in coming future also religeous bodies which have regieonal influence will be weaker.like Catholics or Jehova witness will be stornger then Church of England.Islam will be stronger then Hinduism. And that form of Sikhism will fluorish which encoruges the Sikh faith being trans frontiers and not just the Punjabi( Das is again calling all missionaries that also look to preach out side punjabi Sikh families).As age is of Globalisation so will we have Faith talking of universatality over regeonal cults.
     
  19. Lee

    Lee
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    377

    Heh no irony there my freind. For there to be any irony we would have to expect India to be as open and multicultrual as Britian is. Now I have never been there so I can't say whether that is true or not.

    A word on culture though, it is sorta rubbish isn't it? I mean practicaly every cultural practice or belife is grounded in what? Logic, resonable behaviour? No I think they are all grounded in nothing more than tradition.

    What is another way to describe tradition? Meaningless rites, something that as Sikhs we know we should stay well away from.

    This cultural love is everywhere. I remember one of the first times in Gurdwara, I went to take langar, and sat down on the floor tried to talk to a few people, and when the food was being passed around I actulay got told off for not accepting my food with both hands.

    Now right away I though umm I have never heard of that practice within Sikhi, it must be some sort of a cultural thing.
    For the sake of peace I said sorry and held out both hands.


    English culture, well we have none really. Since the dawn of Britian we have been a mongrol nation, I mean truely apart from the fact that we are big drinkers over here what English culture can you point to?

    Culture no sir, it is merely yet another thing that divides us and I for one will be glad to see the back of it. Why look to the past? Only to learn from it's mistakes surly?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Lee ji

    This may be a trivial reply. So please do not think I did not appreciate the main points of your commentary.

    But --- I have never heard of accepting food at Langar with both hands. First someone goes around and gives out plates, and then you hold up your plate when various sevadhars bring tasty foods to you. So I hold up my plate. Probably with both hands so that the plate is level and nothing is dropped. But to tell you the truth I never paid attention, and neither did anyone else to my knowledge. Where do these notions come from????????????????????????????
     
  21. Lee

    Lee
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    377

    Ahh yes perhaps I should have expliened a tad fuller. Yes the same thing, we have these little plate like things, like TV dinner plates with differant segmants, so the dal gets dished out, then some califlour or whatever, it is the bread that I speak of. I held up one hand for the bread and the chap, told me off and told me (not asked mind you) to raise both hands in a cupping motion to take the bread.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page