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Jan 6, 2007
285
11
UK
Are we in position control it whether it is of animal or may be insect ?
Or may be we are capable of wasting some animal life ?

please elaborate

We are responsible for our own individual actions. If one stays in the “Hukam” and obeys/lives the primary beliefs and principles of Sikhism then “Yes” premeditated murder/killing can be stopped. It is the premeditated killing that is the biggest sin of all. Life taken to satisfy ones taste buds can be controlled. Life taken under the influence of Ego can be stopped. Whenever we interfere with the Laws of Nature, we have to pay. Loss of life that is not premeditated is not fully accountable. But Guru ji says,

Ga­oī mehlā 9.
Nar acė pāp ė dar rė. īn a­i­āl sagal bai banjan saran āhi um par rė. ||1|| rahā­o.
O human, fear the sin that is done incautiously(in ignorance). Seek the Sanctuary of the Lord, Who is compassionate to the poor, the destroyer of all fear. |1||Pause||
purān jās gun gāvaā ko nām hī­ai mo ḏẖar rė. Pāvan nām jaga mai har ko simar simar kasmal sab har rė. ||1||
He, whose praises are sung in the Vedas and puranas, enshrine His Naam within your heart. Pure and sublime is the Name of the Lord in this world, recite/remember him, and all sinful mistakes shall be washed away. ||1||
Mānas ėh bahur nah pāvai kacẖẖū upā­o muka kā kar rė. Nānak kaha gā­ė karunā mai bav sāgar kai pār uar rė. ||2||9||251||
O man, you shall not, attain this human body again. Make some corrective effort towards you liberation. Says Nanak, sing the praise of The Compasionate to cross over the terrifying worldly-ocean.


Nature keeps an account of all our actions, be it conscious or unconscious. To keep the balance of Nature, even the Divine does not directly interfere. Punishment is sanctioned. It is only the intensity (By the Grace of the Divine) that can be reduced unless the Guru takes it on to himself. Human life is the most precious of all living being. Thousands of bacteria sacrifice their lives to keep us alive so that we can pursue our journey back to our maker. This is why humans are severely punished for interfering with the Laws of nature. we share a common birth ground with animals. We are both born of the Womb. Our basic sensory perceptions are very similar. Therefore animal life should not be considered too inferior and be subjected to exploitation.

On this earth, we have all come to serve our judgement for mis-deeds. When we take any life, we are held responsible for it because we are denying that being the right to serve its judgement. This is our Dharamsaal, the place of karmic deliverance.


rwqI ruqI iQqI vwr ] pvx pwxI AgnI pwqwl ] iqsu ivic DrqI Qwip rKI Drm swl ]
iqsu ivic jIA jugiq ky rMg ] iqn ky nwm Anyk Anµq ]

He created, nights, seasons, lunar days, week days; wind, water, fire and the nether regions. In amidst of all these, He established the Earth as a place of karmic deliverance. There-in, He placed the various species of beings(with means of living) of various types. Their names are innumerable and infinite.
krmI krmI hoie vIcwru ] scw Awip scw drbwru ] iqQY sohin pMc prvwxu ]
ndrI krim pvY nIswxu ] kc pkweI EQY pwie ] nwnk gieAw jwpY jwie ]34]

Based on their deeds and actions they are judged. The Lord Himself is true and true is His Court. There in the Lords Court, are graced realized-Saints (who have mastered the five evils) and by the grace of the merciful master they receive the Mark (the judgement based on their deeds). There, the realized and the unrealized are assessed. O Nanak, when you reach there, you will see this. ||34||
To safeguard us from the incautious sin, Guru ji guides us to stay absorbed in Naam Simran. In doing so our Gurus make up the shortfall and pull us out of the life cycle. So drkhalsa ji we have been given the choice. It is up to the individual to make the decision. Following the lost sheep will only lead you to the slaughter house. {censored} for Tat.


Ekmusafir_ajnabi
 
Jan 6, 2007
285
11
UK
Ek musafir ji you are talking about hypocracy.Just answer my simple question could you deny the fact that both guru hargobind ji and guru gobind singh ji hunted regularly Along with the sikhs.Now as you said that Death is death so if Ahimsa is such an important part of sikh philosophy then is it not hypocracy on part of guru's to hunt.How could you justify huntings by guru's and sikhs?

KDS you have chosen two particular periods when Sikhism was in turmoil (almost annihilation) to justify as a universal message to kill animals under the umbrella of Sikhism. On both occasions what you see is the dominance of Miri. Gurus were at WAR. Sikhism was in Danger.
Guru Hargobind Ji succeeded his father, Guru Arjun Dev Ji, as the 6th Guru. When Guru Arjun Dev was in captivity and under the cruelest torture, he concentrated on God and sought divine enlightenment to save the nascent religion from annihilation. The only solution revealed to him was to metamorphose the community into a determined and dedicated force. His last message to his son Hargobind was to "sit fully armed on the throne and maintain an army to the best of your ability." In the succession ceremony, Guru Hargobind was adored with two swords. The Guru declared that two swords signified Miri and Piri, Shakti and Bhakti, Teg and Deg. One symbolized temporal power, the other spiritual power; one to smite the oppressor, the other to protect the innocent. In the Guru’s house the mundane and spiritual powers stood mingled. He instructed the Sikhs to keep a sword and a horse. With an undaunted determination, the Guru organized his followers into a valiant and valorous army. Being witness to the brutal and barbaric torture of his father had steeled the heart Guru ji. Guru ji toughened his Sikhs against tyranny and oppression.
To participated in hunting in those times was deemed to be justified. The cause was to infuse Martial Spirit in the Sikhs, Guru Hargobind ji taught the warriors to hunt ferocious animals such as lions. Wounded animals were cared for and after recover they were set free.
Guru Gobind Singh ji was in a similar predicament after the Martyrdom of Guru Teg Bhadur ji . Now what happened in those very challenging and exceptional times, is not a reflection on the primary beliefs and principles and values of Sikhism and should not be confused. It is common sense.

Our Gurus, very highly spiritual souls who have attained oneness with the Lord. They held the power to give redemption in those circumstances. It is not for us to hold our Gurus accountable for those periods. People are people.

I suggest you also familiarise yourself with the events that took place and not rely on third party self-opinionated information.

Dabistan-i-Mazahib written by the Muslim Mohsin Fani
http://www.sikh.com.au/sikhgurus/hargobind.html



Ekmusafir_ajnabi
 

kds1980

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To participated in hunting in those times was deemed to be justified. The cause was to infuse Martial Spirit in the Sikhs, Guru Hargobind ji taught the warriors to hunt ferocious animals such as lions. Wounded animals were cared for and after recover they were set free.

ekmusafir ji i simply don't understand why do you people simply twist sikh history to suit
your beleif.No where it is written in sikh history that guru ji and sikhs hunted only ferocious animals

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Battle warefare training Guru Gobind Singh Ji


Large scale hunting expeditions were organised where soldiers obtained training to use their weapons on live and fast moving targets. The ranges around Paonta Sahib were full of deer and wild boar known for their swiftness and agility. Also, the expeditions lasted many days during which the soldiers were trained to live off the land with an aim to toughen them and acquaint them with battle-like stress and strains.
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i also have a mini suraj prakash at home in which it is written that guru ji and sikhs regularly hunted deer,nilgai and wild boar

bTw your arguement is no different from people who says that rehat is presently not needed as it was need of that time.
 

kds1980

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Apr 3, 2005
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while searching internet i found amarnamah.i was quite shocked too read that
banda bahadur was not submitting to guru gobind singh ji on single issue of vegetarianism that's why guru gobind singh ji ordered to slaughter his goats
so guru gobind singh ji was totaly against fanatic vegetarianism.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to The Institute of Sikh Studies-->Publications

It is clear from what transpired on September 03, 1708, the day of the solar eclipse, that, eventually Banda's objection to submitting to the Guru was on the single point of vegetarianism. The Guru decided to wait no longer. The master psychologist that he was, he forced the issue in such a manner that Banda would have to make the final choice in the matter of accepting him as the Guru. Anticipating what was to come he did not distribute any cattle to the Lombadas on that day.

The Guru ordered his Sikhs to get ready to visit Banda's place. On reaching there they found him absent. The Guru gave instruction to slaughter Banda's goats, which was immediately complied with. The jungle-folk knew from experience that the meat was meant for them, and came immediately to wait upon the Guru in anticipation.

When the subject of Hindu resentment was brought up, the Guru explained that the outcastes had a right to be fed and comforted, and that there was nothing wrong with the slaughter of goats on the occasion of solar eclipse which was a natural phenomenon.

The obedient Sikhs, when asked by the Guru to kill the goats belonging to Banda,(ll)
Complied and slaughtered all the goats (12).
(On seeing this) tribal people (of the vicinity) rushed like wind, obviously eager to cook the meat (13).
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ekmusafir ji i also want your views on amarnamah .Again i am asking if vegetarianism
is such an important concept in sikhism then why guru gobind singh ji slaughtered goats of banda bahadur and distribuited its meat to tribals.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
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Gurfateh

Well distributing meat ot tribal is a cooked up one.In old texts like Panth PRakash of Bhangu Sikhs are said to be eating goats.

Banda when had bad terms with Punjabis/tat Khalasa Sikhs rember then as eater of his goat.
 
Jan 6, 2007
285
11
UK
KDS

ekmusafir ji i simply don't understand why do you people simply twist sikh history to suit your beleif. No where it is written in sikh history that guru ji and sikhs hunted only ferocious animals.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Battle warefare training Guru Gobind Singh Ji


Large scale hunting expeditions were organised where soldiers obtained training to use their weapons on live and fast moving targets. The ranges around Paonta Sahib were full of deer and wild boar known for their swiftness and agility. Also, the expeditions lasted many days during which the soldiers were trained to live off the land with an aim to toughen them and acquaint them with battle-like stress and strains.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i also have a mini suraj prakash at home in which it is written that guru ji and sikhs regularly hunted deer,nilgai and wild boar


I have come across this statement on the internet in one of the sites, but am unable to back track it. There is no intentional twisting of history as you are claiming.

Do not take any historical book as gospel. Our Gurus had very many enemies who have written very damaging essays on Guru ji and most of them were from within his own family circles. Most of the history you read and that includes your mini suraj prakash interpretation, have been doctored by various people.



The following is an extract from your link and emphasises my viewpoint.

It is a little known fact that Sikhs used to tend to their own battle injured, but more importantly that of the enemy. They would bring them back to base camp, caring and tending to their wounds and nursing them back to health. They were fed and kept safe ,once they were well enough Guru Gobind Singh Ji would ask his Sikhs to bring the enemy soldiers their horse, weapons and belongings. Guru Ji would tell them "Now go and we shall meet you again on the battlefield." For Guru ji there was no enemy, there was no foe, all were the same and Guru Ji looked upon everyone with the same benevelant gaze.

In line with the above statement, It is clear that Guru ji’s instructions were to nurse the wounded enemy soldiers as well. In the same spirit if any animals (non ferocious) that were part of the target training, were wounded then they were also nursed back to health. Hunting was not done out of pleasure but for a just cause in extremely difficult times directly by Divine himself. If such irregularities did take place then the divine was there for forgiveness or retribution. As I said before, do not use this as a norm for propagating killing animals for eating purposes. If you personally have the urge to eat meat then stand on your own feet and take responsibility and suffer the consequences.

bTw your arguement is no different from people who says that rehat is presently not needed as it was need of that time.

I think common sense should prevail here. You are unable to distinguish between the time of peace and war.


ekmusafir ji i also want your views on amarnamah .Again i am asking if vegetarianism is such an important concept in sikhism then why guru gobind singh ji slaughtered goats of banda bahadur and distribuited its meat to tribals.


Amarnamah is a FAKE.

Any one with a little common sense will tell you that. It is a show of frustration of a Ballad singer to justify his rank among the Kirtanayae . Ballard singers were not permitted (until recently) to take part in religious congregations due to their “Kachi Bani” content. Their singing was more appreciated in a battlefield situation to raise the moral of the soldier.

Indeed some one has made a good attempt and succeeded to fool people and from the response on this topic in another thread one can visit them.

No goats were ever slaughtered. The storey of Guru ji’s meeting with Banda is false.

KDS this is twisting history in the true sense. Broaden you horizon.

ekmusafir_ajnabi
 

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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Jul 14, 2007
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You guys need to slow down and handle one issue at a time. Otherwise it will just seem like a war of words, defeating the actual purpose of the discussion. If you guys have a tendency of wanting to keep fighting rather than actually resolve issues, and feel afraid people will laugh at or ridicule U if U admit U made a mistake, or are looking at apology as a sign of weakness then I'm reminding you to snap out of it. Likewise, I will appreciate if you did the same for me.

Thousand apologies.
 

Randip Singh

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KDS


Amarnamah is a FAKE.


Prove it!

Any one with a little common sense will tell you that. It is a show of frustration of a Ballad singer to justify his rank among the Kirtanayae . Ballard singers were not permitted (until recently) to take part in religious congregations due to their “Kachi Bani” content. Their singing was more appreciated in a battlefield situation to raise the moral of the soldier.


Prove it!

Indeed some one has made a good attempt and succeeded to fool people and from the response on this topic in another thread one can visit them.


What attempt how and by whom? ack up assertions with verifiable facts.


No goats were ever slaughtered. The storey of Guru ji’s meeting with Banda is false.


Prove it!

KDS this is twisting history in the true sense. Broaden you horizon.

ekmusafir_ajnabi

No this is not twisting. KDS has provided verifiable sources I suggest you do the same, because until then we cannot take you seriously.
 

Randip Singh

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We are responsible for our own individual actions. If one stays in the “Hukam” and obeys/lives the primary beliefs and principles of Sikhism then “Yes” premeditated murder/killing can be stopped. It is the premeditated killing that is the biggest sin of all. Life taken to satisfy ones taste buds can be controlled.

What do you mean by premeditated killing?

Is the killing of plants to satisfy your taste buds not premeditated?

I love to eat Cholaya dee Daal, my taste buds influence that, so should I give that up?

Is not Bhai Gurdas (in the Key to the Guru Granth Sahib ji) describing premeditated killing?

Just as one has to tie pail's neck while taking out water,
Just as to get Mani, snake is to be killed
Just as to get Kasturi from deer's neck, deer is to be killed
Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed
To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken
Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up.
Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13


How do you reconcile that?


Life taken under the influence of Ego can be stopped. Whenever we interfere with the Laws of Nature, we have to pay. Loss of life that is not premeditated is not fully accountable.

A hunter does not kill an animal in Native American society because he/she has ego, it is because he she is hungry. Hunting is part of the laws of nature. One animal killing another is part of it, so how do you conclude that hunting and killing is not part of the laws of nature?

But Guru ji says,
Ga­oī mehlā 9.
Nar acė pāp ė dar rė. īn a­i­āl sagal bai banjan saran āhi um par rė. ||1|| rahā­o.
O human, fear the sin that is done incautiously(in ignorance). Seek the Sanctuary of the Lord, Who is compassionate to the poor, the destroyer of all fear. |1||Pause||
Bė purān jās gun gāvaṯṯā ko nām hī­ai mo ḏẖar rė. Pāvan nām jaga mai har ko simar simar kasmal sab har rė. ||1||
He, whose praises are sung in the Vedas and puranas, enshrine His Naam within your heart.Pure and sublime is the Name of the Lord in this world, recite/remember him, and all sinful mistakes shall be washed away. ||1||Mānas ėh bahur nah pāvai kacẖẖū upā­o muka kā kar rė. Nānak kaha gā­ė karunā mai bav sāgar kai pār uar rė. ||2||9||251||
O man, you shall not, attain this human body again. Make some corrective effort towards you liberation.Says Nanak, sing the praise of The Compasionate to cross over the terrifying worldly-ocean.

There is nothing in the above tukh that highlights anything to do with hunting, or killing. It talks about compassion, then surely you should have compassion for a plant which cannot speak, or even run away. Cannot show its distress?

Nature keeps an account of all our actions, be it conscious or unconscious. To keep the balance of Nature, even the Divine does not directly interfere. Punishment is sanctioned. It is only the intensity (By the Grace of the Divine) that can be reduced unless the Guru takes it on to himself.

You talk about the balance of nature, but again you have not stated what that is? Hunting and killing animals is part of nature. How do you reconcile that?

Human life is the most precious of all living being. Thousands of bacteria sacrifice their lives to keep us alive so that we can pursue our journey back to our maker. This is why humans are severely punished for interfering with the Laws of nature. we share a common birth ground with animals. We are both born of the Womb. Our basic sensory perceptions are very similar. Therefore animal life should not be considered too inferior and be subjected to exploitation.

Being born of the womb is not true. There are many animals born outside the womb, so this is not true. So we should have affinity with those animals born in the womb and those not born in the womb?


Where is Bani does it say that animalsare not to inferior to us. Infact Bani describes the pain of plants like that of a human being:
Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
How do you reconcile that?

Bani contradicts this statement as states that in one life we could be a plant and the next a human being?
On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.
mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.
saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.
avar na doojaa karnai jog.
taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay.

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.
No one else can do anything at all.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

On this earth, we have all come to serve our judgement for mis-deeds. When we take any life, we are held responsible for it because we are denying that being the right to serve its judgement. This is our Dharamsaal, the place of karmic deliverance.
What jud
gement is that? That sounds like a very Semitic concept? Where in Bani does it say this?

The following Tukh from Bani talks about the 5 thieves, not about animal killing or hunting? Where does the pain of plants feature here in anycase?

rwqI ruqI iQqI vwr ] pvx pwxI AgnI pwqwl ] iqsu ivic DrqI Qwip rKI Drm swl ]
iqsu ivic jIA jugiq ky rMg ] iqn ky nwm Anyk Anµq ]
He created, nights, seasons, lunar days, week days; wind, water, fire and the nether regions. In amidst of all these, He established the Earth as a place of karmic deliverance. There-in, He placed the various species of beings(with means of living) of various types. Their names are innumerable and infinite.
krmI krmI hoie vIcwru ] scw Awip scw drbwru ] iqQY sohin pMc prvwxu ]
ndrI krim pvY nIswxu ] kc pkweI EQY pwie ] nwnk gieAw jwpY jwie ]34]
Based on their deeds and actions they are judged. The Lord Himself is true and true is His Court. There in the Lords Court, are graced realized-Saints (who have mastered the five evils) and by the grace of the merciful master they receive the Mark (the judgement based on their deeds). There, the realized and the unrealized are assessed. O Nanak, when you reach there, you will see this. ||34||

To safeguard us from the incautious sin, Guru ji guides us to stay absorbed in Naam Simran. In doing so our Gurus make up the shortfall and pull us out of the life cycle. So drkhalsa ji we have been given the choice. It is up to the individual to make the decision. Following the lost sheep will only lead you to the slaughter house. {censored} for Tat.
Ekmusafir_ajnabi

Spurious comments not backed up with evidence. Please back up statements with relevant shabads and Bani.
 

japjisahib04

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Jan 22, 2005
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Originally Posted by ekmusafir_ajnabi
Life taken under the influence of Ego can be stopped. Whenever we interfere with the Laws of Nature, we have to pay. Loss of life that is not premeditated is not fully accountable.

I wonder what is this interference with Laws of Nature. Take the example of fly. If you don't kill the fly she will keep on disturbing. Similar way if we let these animal astray, they will make our life miserable and that day will not be far when they will not only outnumber but make our movement difficult.
Regards Sahni
 
Jan 6, 2007
285
11
UK
My friend you are in no position to judge spirituality, and if you think seniority in terms of age matters then you know nothing about Sikhism or what ages our Sikh Guru's were, stop making personal attacks.
I shall never be your friend. As far as spirituality is concerned you do not know the ABC of it.
Seniority ? This musafir is senior to you in every aspect.
As far as Gurus are concerned, this musafir was a life long companion of Guru Amar Das ji. I witnessed the Guruship of Guru Amar Das ji. I have lived and travellerd with my Gurus. I need not tell you anymore.
Personal attacks? What personal attacks? So you do have an EGO. An ENORMOUS ONE. Just admit it and perhaps we will move forward.

I feel nothing towards your comments, but as someone who belives in freedom of speech (as the Guru's did) I feel I must challenge you.

Stop right there. I have never implied the Guru's are hypocrits. Stop making personal attacks.

Yours is not freedom of speech but a display of lack of spiritual knowledge and a show of frustration and a burning desire for Recognition.

Point 1 - If you are aware of the Tukh then quote it all. Don't take the quote out of context or you will be challenged like you were and defeated.

Point 2 - wikipedia is not a valid source for citing Sikhism it is a site that can be changed by anyone.

Point 3 - The Quote from wikipedia was made by Hari Singh who follows the GnnSJ cult, and not mainstream Sikhism, so it is irrelevant.
Point 1 – I will do that in good time. You are no match to challenge me.
Point 2 – Ignore wikipedia and stick to what I have put forward.
Point 3 – I do not know of Hari Singh but if the contents were his then I must congratulate him he has the blessings of Our Gurus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principles
Sikhism primary beliefs and principles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principles
  1. One God: - There is only one God who has infinite qualities and names. S/He is the same for all religions. God is Creator and Sustainer and Destroyer - all that you see around you is His creation. S/He is everywhere, in everything. S/He is fearless and with no enemies. Only God is without birth or death and S/He has and will exist forever.
  2. Reincarnation, karma and salvation: – Every creature has a soul. On death, the soul is passed from one body to another until liberation. The journey of the soul is governed by the deeds and actions that we perform during our lives. It is also influenced by the state of ones mind leading to the final breaths (Death).
  3. Remember God: Love God, but have fear of Him as well. Only by keeping the Creator in your mind at all times will you make progress in your spiritual evolution.
  4. Humanity (brotherhood): All human beings are equal. We are all sons and daughters of
  1. Waheguru, the Almighty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principles
    [*]Uphold moral values: Defend, protect and fight for the rights of all creatures, in particular your fellow human beings.
    [*]Personal sacrifice: Be prepared to give your life for all supreme principles. See the life of
    Guru Teg Bahadur. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principles
    [*]Many paths lead to God: – Sikhs are not special; they are not the only chosen people of God. Simply calling yourself a Sikh does not bring you salvation. Sikhism however present you with a very simple sure and progressive path.
    [*]Positive attitude toward life: "
    Chardi Kala" – Always have a positive, optimistic and buoyant view of life. God is always here is guise – He will be your help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principles
    [*]Disciplined life: Upon baptism, a Sikh must wear the
    5Ks and perform strict recital of the five prayers Banis, etc. Only get baptised when you have no doubts left. To get baptised and pursue a life doubtness of (life of a Bemukh) is treated harshly by our Gurus.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principles
    [*]No special worship days: Sikhs do not believe that any particular day is holier than any other.
    [*]Conquer the five thieves: It is every Sikh's duty to defeat these five thieves: Pride (a’Hankar), Anger (Kr’odh), Greed (Lob’H), Attachment (Mo’H), and Lust (K’haam). Known collectively as P.A.G.A.L.
    [*]Conquer the five sences: It is every Sikh's duty to renounce these five senses: Tounge (Desire to eat Tasty foods), Hear (Habbit of listerning to Gossip), Speech ( Too much unnecessary Talking), External visualisation (Desire to see everything externally), Touch (To feel your and others presence) that a body takes pleasure from and confirms ones existance. (Known in Bani as Bairaganiaan)
    [*]Attack with Five Weapons: Contentment (Santokh), Charity (Dan), Kindness (Daya ), Positive Energy (Chardi Kala), Humility (Nimarta).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principlesSikhism underlying values http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principles
  1. Equality: All humans are equal before God – No discrimination is allowed on the basis of caste, race, gender, creed, origin, color, education, status, wealth, etc. The principles of universal equality and brotherhood are important pillars of Sikhism.
  2. God’s spirit: All creatures have God’s spirits and must be properly respected. Show love for all living things. Mistreatment or harming of any living creature is tabooed and forbidden. Remember, your next birth may be as a different animal.
  3. Personal right: Every person has a right to life but this right is restricted and has attached certain duties – simple living is essential. A Sikh is expected to rise early, meditate and pray, consume simple food, perform an honest day's work, carry out duties for your family, enjoy life and always be positive, be charitable and support the needy, etc.
  4. Actions count: Salvation is obtained by one’s actions – good deeds, remembrance of God –
  1. NaamSimran, Kirtan, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principles
    [*]Living a family life: Encouraged to live as a family unit to provide and nurture children for the perpetual benefit of creation.
    [*]Sharing: It is encouraged to share and give to charity 10 percent of one’s net earnings DASBAND.
    [*]Accept God’s will: Develop your personality so that you recognize happy event and miserable events as one – the will of God causes them.
I am sure even you will agree to all the above. If not then raise your concerns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_primary_beliefs_and_principles


The above needs to be verified by scholars, some of the above is inaccurate as is much of wikipedia.



This says all I need to know. You are no scholar. You have no right to enforce you Kalyugi views on people who are looking for a spiritual direction from Sikhism. What further can I discuss with you. You will not understand and I have no time for sceptics.


Please enlighten me about these Bhagats, and why did Sadana and Ravi Das still continue with their so called "dirty" professions and yet still sen as Saints?
This is another example amplifying lack of spiritual knowledge. I have given you a hint which you have clearly missed. How can I discuss with one who is comparatively primitive.

PS Last warning, anymore personal attacks and I will delete your posts.

These threats have no bearing on me. What is the matter? Lost for words or knowledge.
You cannot even agree with me on the primary beliefs of Sikhism and are running off to ask you seniors for verifications and yet you want to discuss Sikhism with me. You want to discuss the meanings of Shabads with me. You have no credibility.


Amarnamah is a FAKE.Any one with a little common sense will tell you that. It is a show of frustration of a Ballad singer to justify his rank among the Kirtanayae . Ballard singers were not permitted (until recently) to take part in religious congregations due to their “Kachi Bani” content. Their singing was more appreciated in a battlefield situation to raise the moral of the soldier. Indeed some one has made a good attempt and succeeded to fool people and from the response on this topic in another thread one can visit them.

No this is not twisting. KDS has provided verifiable sources I suggest you do the same, because until then we cannot take you seriously.



Being born of the womb is not true. There are many animals born outside the womb, so this is not true. So we should have affinity with those animals born in the womb and those not born in the womb?


Page 467 SGGS
Shalok, First Mehl:Men, trees, sacred shrines of pilgrimage, banks of sacred rivers, clouds, fields,islands, continents, worlds, solar systems, and universes;the four sources of creation - born of eggs, born of the womb, born of the earth and born of sweat;oceans, mountains, and all beings - O Nanak, He alone knows their condition.O Nanak, having created the living beings, He cherishes them all.The Creator who created the creation, takes care of it as well.He, the Creator who formed the world, cares for it.Unto Him I bow and offer my reverence; His Royal Court is eternal.O Nanak, without the True Name, of what use is the frontal mark of the Hindus, or their sacred thread? ||1||
And in Chopae Patshahi 10
pwÚ 10 kibXobwc bynqI ] cOpeI ]
AMfj jyrj syqj kInI ] auqBuj Kwin bhur ric dInI ]8]

Andaj (born of eggs – Bird life)
Jaireg (born of Womb – Humans and Animals)
Utbhuj(born of earth - Vegetation) and
Setej (born of sweat, Humidity – Lice, insects etc (spontaneous generation – insects after rainfalls)

Now perhaps you are unique and fall outside this creation?


We did however feel as amateur Sikh Historians and commentators on Sikh affairs that we should use our knowledge and experience to clarify what is such a controversial issue.

You consider yourself as the know all in this forum.

YOU PROVE IT.

You are the self confessed Sikh Historian ,

YOU PROOVE IT.


Out of sheer sympathy, I am leaving you some hints?

Check if Ballard Singers were allowed to sing in the Gurus Darbar ?
Why should a Ballard Singer be mediating between Guru ji and Banda ?
Does this Ballard singers name appear among the poets of Guru Gobind Singh ji as claimed. Quite conveniently his writing are completed one day after the Guru ji’ departure from us ?
Why should the whole flock of goats be slaughtered ? To win the favours of Banda?
One who follows the doctrines of Guru Nanak will behave in this manner with Guru Gobind Singh?

Now you do the search and justify your “Sikh Historian” title.

Sikhism primary beliefs and principles Sikhism underlying values - Reply with reasons to this.

I do not intend to be personal with you but you are leaving me no choice due to your vile comments about Sikhism and Spirituality. Banning me from this forum would not achieve anything. Be a man and say what you want to say in the forum and not through private messages. It will be a loss to the Forum. Besides I have no time for Hypocrites especially among the Moderators.

My sincere apollogies to all those that have True faith in Our Gurus.

Ekmusafir_ajnabi
 
Apr 11, 2007
351
262
What do I see. No understanding of life. No one is wright no one is wrong. Just be good people. In the end after all the thinking of life and questioning of faith and mind it falls down to something that simple. If I swear to someone I will only get a bad reply back. If I talk with politeness, If I dont make a negative view then why should there be confrontation. In life just agree to disagree and move on. Not to keep on being stuck on trying to prove the point. If people agree with you they will read and accept themselves. If they dont they see and read for themselves. No need to show someone there faults if the person is not willing to listen. You might aswell bang your head on a brick wall. Even the guru's could not change some peoples thinking. Just keep life simple. Be a good person. If someone else agrees fine if not let them make there own way. God is the ultimate teacher waheguru. Through life you they will learn there own mistakes and everyone will learn in there own way. In the end its by being pure you find total peace of mind. If thats what men want. Life to be peacefull.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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quote from ajnabi musafir..I shall never be your friend. As far as spirituality is concerned you do not know the ABC of it.
Seniority ? This musafir is senior to you in every aspect.

As far as Gurus are concerned, this musafir was a life long companion of Guru Amar Das ji. I witnessed the Guruship of Guru Amar Das ji. I have lived and travellerd with my Gurus. I need not tell you anymore.
Personal attacks? What personal attacks? So you do have an EGO. An ENORMOUS ONE. Just admit it and perhaps we will move forward.

WOW...lived and travelled with Guru Amardass Ji....WOW...WOW... what more can i say. But Guru Amardass Ji was everybodys FRIEND....we say in ardass NITHAVIAHN da THAAN..Nimannniah da MAAN..Nioatain dee OAAT..Niasriahn da AASRAA...while ajnabee ji declares..I WONT be your friend... ? I dont understand....an anomaly...something doesnt click....

Gyani jarnail Singh
 
Jan 6, 2007
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Originally Posted by ekmusafir_ajnabi
Life taken under the influence of Ego can be stopped. Whenever we interfere with the Laws of Nature, we have to pay. Loss of life that is not premeditated is not fully accountable.

I wonder what is this interference with Laws of Nature. Take the example of fly. If you don't kill the fly she will keep on disturbing. Similar way if we let these animal astray, they will make our life miserable and that day will not be far when they will not only outnumber but make our movement difficult.
Regards Sahni

The world is an illusion, also referred to as “Jagat Tamasha”, “Leela”. One who gets absorbed in it shall keep visiting it life after life. Get detached and get out. What happens in the world is under his “Hukam”. You cannot change it or understand it. It is not for one to question it. If you were given the answer, you will fail to understand it. It may be over your head. Just enjoy the “Tamasha”.

Regards - stay true to your avtaar. Become it and all questions will cease.

Ekmusafir_ajnabi
 
Jan 6, 2007
285
11
UK
quote from ajnabi musafir..I shall never be your friend. As far as spirituality is concerned you do not know the ABC of it.
Seniority ? This musafir is senior to you in every aspect.
As far as Gurus are concerned, this musafir was a life long companion of Guru Amar Das ji. I witnessed the Guruship of Guru Amar Das ji. I have lived and travellerd with my Gurus. I need not tell you anymore.
Personal attacks? What personal attacks? So you do have an EGO. An ENORMOUS ONE. Just admit it and perhaps we will move forward.

WOW...lived and travelled with Guru Amardass Ji....WOW...WOW... what more can i say. But Guru Amardass Ji was everybodys FRIEND....we say in ardass NITHAVIAHN da THAAN..Nimannniah da MAAN..Nioatain dee OAAT..Niasriahn da AASRAA...while ajnabee ji declares..I WONT be your friend... ? I dont understand....an anomaly...something doesnt click....

Gyani jarnail Singh


WOW……WOW ?? Do not expect sarcasm from a learned one (Gyaani). This is my journey.

Firstly, I am surprised that you should come forward with these comments. If one clips ones ear who is going out of order, does it mean one has enmity with the one. I think not. How many times have you restrained your children or students when they have misbehaved and did you mean any of it ?? There is no need to reply to that. I am sure you understand my point of view.


Secondly

Page 47, Line10
mwq ipqw suq bMDpw kUVy sBy swk ]Māṯ piṯā suṯ banḏẖpā kūṛė sabẖė sāk.
Mother, father, children and relatives-all relations are false.

Page1028, Line 8mwq ipqw klqR suq bylI nwhI ibnu hir rs mukiq n kInw hy ] piā kalar su bėlī nāhī bin har ras muka na kīnā hė. ||10||

Mother, father, spouse and child - none is anyone's friend in the end. Without the Lord's Love, no one is liberated.


It is not my intention to make friends.


Ekmusafir_ajnabi
 

Randip Singh

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May 25, 2005
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I shall never be your friend. As far as spirituality is concerned you do not know the ABC of it.
Seniority ? This musafir is senior to you in every aspect.

Ok you are my senior so please show some maturity in your posts.
As far as Gurus are concerned, this musafir was a life long companion of Guru Amar Das ji. I witnessed the Guruship of Guru Amar Das ji. I have lived and travellerd with my Gurus. I need not tell you anymore.
Personal attacks? What personal attacks? So you do have an EGO. An ENORMOUS ONE. Just admit it and perhaps we will move forward.


Phrases like So you do have an EGO. An ENORMOUS ONE. Just admit it and perhaps we will move forward are personal attacks. Like I say, debate the content, not the person.

OK to make you happy, I have an enormouse ego....so big that my head cannot fit througgh my door.

Yours is not freedom of speech but a display of lack of spiritual knowledge and a show of frustration and a burning desire for Recognition.

Another personal attack, but lets move on.
Point 1 – I will do that in good time. You are no match to challenge me.
Point 2 – Ignore wikipedia and stick to what I have put forward.
Point 3 – I do not know of Hari Singh but if the contents were his then I must congratulate him he has the blessings of Our Gurus.


Post when you have evidence, otherwise it is a waste of bandwith.

You have used wikipedia to back up your assertions, sorry that is not a credible source.

Ok so you don’t know Hari Singh….lets move on.

This says all I need to know. You are no scholar. You have no right to enforce you Kalyugi views on people who are looking for a spiritual direction from Sikhism. What further can I discuss with you. You will not understand and I have no time for sceptics.


You are correct, I am no scholar, but the people who wrote the essay are. Cut the personal remarks and get to the debate.

This is another example amplifying lack of spiritual knowledge. I have given you a hint which you have clearly missed. How can I discuss with one who is comparatively primitive.


More personal remarks. Ok I am primitive, so please enlighten me.

These threats have no bearing on me. What is the matter? Lost for words or knowledge.
You cannot even agree with me on the primary beliefs of Sikhism and are running off to ask you seniors for verifications and yet you want to discuss Sikhism with me. You want to discuss the meanings of Shabads with me. You have no credibility..


Ok I have no credibility, but I do know one thing, Sikhism is NOT a pacifist religion as you have stated. That thinking is that of Vaishnavites, and Jains.

Page 467 SGGS
Shalok, First Mehl:Men, trees, sacred shrines of pilgrimage, banks of sacred rivers, clouds, fields,islands, continents, worlds, solar systems, and universes;the four sources of creation - born of eggs, born of the womb, born of the earth and born of sweat;oceans, mountains, and all beings - O Nanak, He alone knows their condition.O Nanak, having created the living beings, He cherishes them all.The Creator who created the creation, takes care of it as well.He, the Creator who formed the world, cares for it.Unto Him I bow and offer my reverence; His Royal Court is eternal.O Nanak, without the True Name, of what use is the frontal mark of the Hindus, or their sacred thread? ||1||
And in Chopae Patshahi 10
pwÚ 10 kibXobwc bynqI ] cOpeI ]
AMfj jyrj syqj kInI ] auqBuj Kwin bhur ric dInI ]8]
Andaj (born of eggs – Bird life)
Jaireg (born of Womb – Humans and Animals)
Utbhuj(born of earth - Vegetation) and
Setej (born of sweat, Humidity – Lice, insects etc (spontaneous generation – insects after rainfalls)


This merely proves my point that animals are not all womb born. Thank you for proving my point. BTW crocodiles lay eggs too….a reptile…as do tortoise.
Now perhaps you are unique and fall outside this creation?

As you have stated, I am primitive.
You consider yourself as the know all in this forum.
YOU PROVE IT.
You are the self confessed Sikh Historian ,
YOU PROOVE IT.


Let me explain how debates work:
1 You make an assertion
2 You supply verifiable sources.
Also, yes I consider myself an AMATEUR Historian who is constantly learning under the tutelage of veer Sandeep Singh Bajwa ji.


Out of sheer sympathy, I am leaving you some hints?
Check if Ballard Singers were allowed to sing in the Gurus Darbar ?
Why should a Ballard Singer be mediating between Guru ji and Banda ?
Does this Ballard singers name appear among the poets of Guru Gobind Singh ji as claimed. Quite conveniently his writing are completed one day after the Guru ji’ departure from us ?
Why should the whole flock of goats be slaughtered ? To win the favours of Banda?
One who follows the doctrines of Guru Nanak will behave in this manner with Guru Gobind Singh?
Now you do the search and justify your “Sikh Historian” title.


I am primitive so please explain to me in detail. Tell me what the background to this is and what sources you have used?

Sikhism primary beliefs and principles Sikhism underlying values - Reply with reasons to this.
I do not intend to be personal with you but you are leaving me no choice due to your vile comments about Sikhism and Spirituality. Banning me from this forum would not achieve anything. Be a man and say what you want to say in the forum and not through private messages. It will be a loss to the Forum. Besides I have no time for Hypocrites especially among the Moderators.
My sincere apollogies to all those that have True faith in Our Gurus.
Ekmusafir_ajnabi


Please refrain from personal comments and let us learn from your wisdom.
Unless you back your assertions up with verifiable sources I will challenge you!

Who is talking about banning, I am talking about a civil tongue and Sarbat Da Bhalla…..surely you understand that?

I though a PM maybe less embarrassing for you, but if you want everything in the open then please continue.
 

kds1980

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Apr 3, 2005
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I have come across this statement on the internet in one of the sites, but am unable to back track it. There is no intentional twisting of history as you are claiming.

There are some sikh websites which are intentionally twisting sikh history to prove their point of vegetarianism.Anyway here is quote from dasam granth which prove that blue bulls are hunted by guru gobind singh ji

When I obtained the position of responsibility, I performed the religious acts to the best of my ability.

ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਨ ਖੇਲ ਸਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਮਾਰੇ ਰੀਛ ਰੋਝ ਝੰਖਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
भांति भांति बन खेल सिकारा ॥ मारे रीछ रोझ झंखारा ॥१॥
I went hunting various kinds of animals in the forest and killed bears, nilgais (blue bulls) and elks.1.

ਦੇਸ ਚਾਲ ਹਮ ਤੇ ਪੁਨਿ ਭਈ ॥ ਸਹਰ ਪਾਂਵਟਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ਲਈ ॥
देस चाल हम ते पुनि भई ॥ सहर पांवटा की सुधि लई ॥
Then I left my home and went to place named Paonta.

ਕਾਲਿੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਤਟਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਿਲਾਸਾ ॥ ਅਨਿਕ ਭਾਂਤ ਕੇ ਪੇਖ ਤਮਾਮਾ ॥੨॥
कालिंद्री तटि करे बिलासा ॥ अनिक भांत के पेख तमामा ॥२॥
I enjoyed my stay on the banks of Kalindri (Yamuna) and saw amusement of various kind2.

ਤਹ ਕੇ ਸਿੰਘ ਘਨੇ ਚੁਨਿ ਮਾਰੇ ॥ ਰੋਝ ਰੀਛ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਿਦਾਰੇ ॥
तह के सिंघ घने चुनि मारे ॥ रोझ रीछ बहु भांति बिदारे ॥
There I killed may lions, nilgais and bears

Do not take any historical book as gospel. Our Gurus had very many enemies who have written very damaging essays on Guru ji and most of them were from within his own family circles. Most of the history you read and that includes your mini suraj prakash interpretation, have been doctored by various people.

i agree with it that sikh history is not gospel but atleast it gives us an over view of lifestyles of guru's and sikhs of puratan times.

In line with the above statement, It is clear that Guru ji’s instructions were to nurse the wounded enemy soldiers as well. In the same spirit if any animals (non ferocious) that were part of the target training, were wounded then they were also nursed back to health. Hunting was not done out of pleasure but for a just cause in extremely difficult times directly by Divine himself. If such irregularities did take place then the divine was there for forgiveness or retribution. As I said before, do not use this as a norm for propagating killing animals for eating purposes. If you personally have the urge to eat meat then stand on your own feet and take responsibility and suffer the consequences.

First of all i don't understand why are you differentiating between feroccious and non ferocious animals.a lion and tiger are god's creation and herbivorus are also god's creation.tigers and lion kill herbivorus because god created them like that.There is no difference between killing a carnivorus and herbivorus animal.

secondly i think you should watch national geographic channel.Injuring an herbivorous animal in jungle means its death.these animals face day and night threat from carnivorus
animals and there is absolutely no way of their survival in jungles.Anyway the quote i provided from dasam granth clearly says that guru gobind singh ji actually killed blue bulls which is actually a deer.

Amarnamah is a FAKE.

Any one with a little common sense will tell you that. It is a show of frustration of a Ballad singer to justify his rank among the Kirtanayae . Ballard singers were not permitted (until recently) to take part in religious congregations due to their “Kachi Bani” content. Their singing was more appreciated in a battlefield situation to raise the moral of the soldier.

After reading your above statement i searched internet on the issue of amarnamah.i idid not find any sikh raising the doubt on the genuity of Amarnamah. I read debates on sikh
sites where even word amarnamah was mentioned but i did not found anyone who raised doubts on its genuinity and surprisingly you are saying that anybody with little knowledge
can tell that amarnamah is fake
 

sahibr

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Aug 4, 2007
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This is not so much a reply but a question. I think that rest/shops should have a sign indicating if they sell halal meat. There are many schools that have started serving halal meat and I for one dont want to eat the meat of an animal which has suffered such a death. I was wondering if any city in the world has laws which say that there must be a sign displayed if halal meat is being served?
 

japjisahib04

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Jan 22, 2005
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The world is an illusion, also referred to as “Jagat Tamasha”, “Leela”. One who gets absorbed in it shall keep visiting it life after life. Get detached and get out. What happens in the world is under his “Hukam”. You cannot change it or understand it. It is not for one to question it. If you were given the answer, you will fail to understand it. It may be over your head. Just enjoy the “Tamasha”.
Regards - stay true to your avtaar. Become it and all questions will cease.
Ekmusafir_ajnabi

Dear Ek Musafir Ji
For Guru Nanak life was principle as well as play but with principle.That for the sake of principle justice is not compromised but to save one from injustice. Please note for Sri Ram, the God was not personified but Mariyaada is God for him, For Krishan it just leela and leela was truth for him. Guru Nanak brought them together and said God is mariyaada and Truth. Tenth Guru Nanak (Guru Gobind Singh) proved this by making battlefield as play but with principle by applauding Bhai Ghanneia who was serving water and applying bandage to the injured soldiers of the enemy in the battlefield.
Regards Sahni Mohinder
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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This is not so much a reply but a question. I think that rest/shops should have a sign indicating if they sell halal meat. There are many schools that have started serving halal meat and I for one dont want to eat the meat of an animal which has suffered such a death. I was wondering if any city in the world has laws which say that there must be a sign displayed if halal meat is being served?

MALAYSIA is one such country. Here ALL Supermarkets, Hyper markets, restaurants, eating shops ( even Vegetarian ones), Five Star Hotels and lesser starred ones..etc etc ALL have to have the COMPULSORY "HALLAL" notice displayed. Any stuff that is NON-HALLAL is also displayed under the "NON-HALLAL" sign and SEGREGATED AWAY from hallal foods. Super markets have Different segregated counters and cashiers for Non-Hallal goods even in Tinned stuff. Muslim cashiers find it offensive to handle pork/ham etc even if it is tinned stuff.
Malaysia stations Mulsim staff in overseas abbatoirs ( like in Australia/NZ) to make sure the beef mutton etc from there exported to Malaysia is HALLAL.
Our National Airline and All Govt offices, schools, etc mostly only carry HALLAL certified foods. Non Muslims are very sensitive towards their Muslim colleagues neighbours etc and DONT bring in or consume nonhallal products

Gyani jarnail Singh
 

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