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Dualism and Sikhism

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by agape, Jun 30, 2005.

  1. agape

    agape
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    now about the given situation if as said that there was Guru Ji Sarrop was planned to be there and subsequently alcohol was to be served then I think it crossed the lined and the offending party should be peacefully informed about that ( as they may be even unaware of what they are doing... ... as this present condition of sikhi)



    why is it ok to have/consume alcohol in the presence of god. who is here everywhere always, but not in front the guru granth sahib?

    i am not saying it should be. but why isn't that ever addressed.
    inside the gurudwara in the main hall, everything is ritualised etc.. do this that and the other, as the guru is there. but outside where god is still present our standards are allowed to slip.

    time 'sikhs' (?) had a reality check.
    either we unconditionally in presence of god or we not.
    if we are that seems to point to strength of sikh immortallity.
    if not how are we diffierent from everybody else.

    now about the given situation if as said that there was Guru Ji Sarrop was planned to be there and subsequently alcohol was to be served then I think it crossed the lined and the offending party should be peacefully informed about that ( as they may be even unaware of what they are doing... ... as this present condition of sikhi)



    why is it ok to have/consume alcohol in the presence of god. who is here everywhere always, but not in front the guru granth sahib?

    i am not saying it should be. but why isn't that ever addressed.
    inside the gurudwara in the main hall, everything is ritualised etc.. do this that and the other, as the guru is there. but outside where god is still present our standards are allowed to slip.

    time 'sikhs' (?) had a reality check.
    either we unconditionally in presence of god or we not.
    if we are that seems to point to strength of sikh immortallity.
    if not how are we diffierent from everybody else.

    what about respect for life, humanity, and hence god?
    that is the essence of sikhi not through idolising our guru who is beyond all of our petty projections.

    BAL CHUK MAF.

    sincerist apologies for any misrepresentation of misunderstandings just trying to learn and understand from you great people.

    thanks a million
     
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  3. GushK

    GushK
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    Re: Respect For Guru Ji - Guru Granth Sahib

    Dear agape,

    Excellent!
    You've hit the nail directly on the head, and actually brought up a topic that I wasn't intending to talk about in this thread. Mods, if you feel the need to break this out into a new thread, please do.
    You are definitly right, why does this dual mode of thinking even exist, and it all brings you back to, what does it mean to be a Sikh?

    I'm going to be a bit cheeky and paste in something I wrote somewhere else in regards to being a Sikh and following Rehit...let me know you're thoughts.


    You see, once a person actually "becomes" a Sikh rather than assuming that they are one, then all this stuff about different attitudes within and outside a Gurdwara disappear. A Gurdwara becomes not just the place where you go to pray, away from the rest of you life. But an integral part of a much wider outlook on life and a stepping stone on our journey to Akal Purakh.

    Regards
    Gursharan Singh
     
  4. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Re: Respect For Guru Ji - Guru Granth Sahib

    Dear Singh ji

    Thanks taking time to respond to my post

    Now you have raised really very good point

    Surprising what you said never crossed my mind when i was writing this

    Now what do I mean when I say that IN presense of Guruji Sarrop it was not apropiate to drink alcohol when god is omnipresent

    First of all I never said it was ok to or a good thing to drink alcohol

    now IF somebody drinks alcohol and ou think that it is not ok would you like to go to his home to show your objection even that when he is enjoying his maariage party

    God is omnipresent that is what Guru ji teaches i teaches us but the thing is are you really capable enough the feel the presense of Akl purakh in each and evry thing that exist (non dualism ) as I understand that this the destination of the person on the path of sikhi ( as for me still I am not that capable ) Knowing vvery well that guruji teaches us nondualism but I just cant pretend till I reach that state

    Now when you say ritualism in gurdwara that god is there not outside That could be purely you r way of interpreting thing nothe reality , now you cant say for sure how many people out there in gurdwara showing extra devotion to small menial things in gurdwara are real shardalu who spend all the day in their jobs and home and didn’t put concoiuness toward akal purakh but when they reach gurdwara they might have got opportunity to do so seeing other people (sangat ) and this might appear ritualism to you

    Now it is different case for somebody spiritually more advanced who already spends all his day in reme,brance of akal purakh and when he come to gurdwara he will behave quite normally as he behave outside gurdwara .

    But if this fellow thinks that all others there are just ritualistic doing nonsense then offcourse this would be qite ignorant on his part

    Now question is how sikhi is different from older ritualistict religion

    As I think religions are just like school of spirituality and sikhi is school in which human can start from scratch and go uptu eternity and any body staring new will apper ritualistic to you biut eventually they will leave it go to higher state while this may not happen in other religion where person can remain ritualistic from start to end



    Now I tell you about my personal experience I do try to remember akalpurakh all the time ( as much as possible but there are days when become so muddled up in day to day and nonse issue that feel distant from akal purakh and the I only realise when I reach gurdwar and it is the difference that I feel when I reach gurudwra and do guruji darshan and sangats darshan so obviously my behaviour do change while in gurdwara and if you would like to call it ritualism then I am quite happy with it

    The other option I have is that I just start pretending like oh god is every where ( that what my knowledge says) so what is so special in this place called gurdwara and So miss the only opportunity in a day available to me to improve myself

    So I think IF With akal purakh kirpa I am also so blessed that I could actually precieve ( not just the abstract knowledge of this fact ) the omnipresense of god every where my ritualism will vanish

    so when somebody decide to use Gurujio saroop for taking vows of his marriage then obviously it means that Guru Granth sahib and its teaching has some meaning to him ( while this is not always the case ) so if now I think that this man is totally blind as compared to partilly blind people like me so he cannot even think of his wrong doing even in presence of guruji . Now the removal of saropp is related tio the feeling of the people who really thinks Guru Granth Sahib AS their Guru and obviously feel offended if such a thing is done

    Any way This is what I can think and what Akal Purakh has yet made me capable of Bul Chuk MAf


    Jatinder Singh
     
  5. S|kH

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    Although you make a good point, your logic becomes flawed as you assume that Sikhs claim it to be "ok" to drink alcohol at anytime.

    Whether the Guru is there or not, intoxications that alter the mind-state are NOT permitted in Sikhi.

    The point of not allowing the SGGS to be in a location where alcohol is being served is because other people do not care about what is or not permitted in Sikhi and are therefore disrespecting OUR Guru. What else is there to do, but stand up and fight, or should we allow our Guru to be continually disrespected by drunkards?

    Just because we say "You can not hold a marriage in a hotel that serves alcohol if you plan on having the SGGS there" does not mean that you can drink alcohol everywhere else. It is against sikhi to do so, but obviously the people taking part in a marriage like this are most likely far from being Sikhs themselves, and so therefore to the remaining Sikhs it just seen as blatant disrespect to their Guru.

    It is as if your saying, "We walk on the ground outside on dirty streets, and God is everywhere, so why can we not walk around/on the SGGS with dirty feet/shoes?"

    Besides, if God is everywhere, he is underneath you, above you, around you and inside you. Therefore, with your logic, we should be able to walk *on* the SGGS, as that is our Guru and not God himself. But, I'd like to see if anyone actually tried to do this, of course we would never permit it, but that does not mean we're not permitting people to walk outside on the streets where God is beneath them.

    See my point? There's a difference between disrespect and what is allowed in Sikhi. A clear difference between Guru, God, and Respect.

    The concept of Sikhs being in "dual mode" is very accurate, and your logic can be used in other situations....but the one your trying to accomplish is flawed simply because your thinking that Sikhs permit alcohol at other places, and not infront of the Guru. When in matter of fact, we do not permit it anywhere, people just choose to do as they wish, just like disrespecting the Guru...which we will never tolerate.
     
  6. CaramelChocolate

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    Another point- you have to be pure and in a clear mind when in contact with God. When you are hearing Guruji's bani you are in contact with God. Therefore you must be clean mentally/bodily/spiritual when in this contact.
     

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