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Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Shanger, Jan 24, 2011.

  1. Shanger

    Shanger
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    Basically I'm asking what reasons you have for believing in Sikhi.

    I ask this because at the moment I'm reading the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I am near the beginning and so far I have not read anything that convinces me, that could change though I have much to read.

    I just want to know from people who consider themselves sikh now, what is it in GGSJ that makes you so sure that Sikhi is the true religion?

    For example muslims will usually say stuff like, "the quran speaks about the stages of embyology, which was discovered much later by science proving it was from god as no one could have known it at the time" etc When trying to explain why their religion is true and from god etc.

    (For the record Im not a muslim and I think their religion is heavily flawed including the parts on embryology)

    I haven't been able to find much from searching around on the main arguments pro sikhism (other than moral/ethical reasons e.g. equality), maybe because in general sikhs don't try to actively convert lots of people. So I am hoping you guys can share your thoughts.
     

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  3. Ishna

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    Shanger ji

    This is my personal response to you from my experiences to date. Others may have different perspectives.

    It almost sounds like you're looking for a) someone to convert you and b) proof of God.

    The only true religion is the one which makes you live truthfully, in accordance with Hukam, and helps you to realise God.

    You're looking with your eyes and your analytical mind (not that there's anything wrong with having an analytical mind) at Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and saying "show me". You need to read the Gurbani's poetry and feel it on a deeper, spiritual level, which means feeling things you might not recognise and exploring without a critical mind. The critical mind and the analysis come later.

    No one can prove anything to you (not even God) if you're not a) openminded and open hearted enough to receive the message being sent, and b) blessed with Grace. Then it doesn't have to be proven to you, you don't need to be convinced, you will just KNOW.

    I could quote my favourite shabads all day, but if you're going to read them looking for proof with your eyes they will all be in vain.

    Ask yourself this question, Shanger, what are you looking for? Know that no proof will ever be enough until you're ready to explore with your heart. Damn that sounds so cheezy.

    Ishna
     
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  4. Ishna

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    Oh, any my personal reasons for "believing in Sikhi" (not sure that's the right term), is because of the wonderful feelings of peace, inspiration, courage and total mind-blowing awe I feel when I read Gurbani. It doesn't happen all the time. There are a lot of parts of Gurbani I don't understand yet. But the parts I do understand, I just FEEL and KNOW it's right. Intuitively.

    It's like... I know I like strawberry because I've tasted it and it tastes good to me. You're looking at the strawberry and saying "prove to me it tastes good". You're not going to know until you take a bite yourself. And even then, if psychologically you're determined NOT to like the strawberry, you'll feel the seeds in it, it will taste too tart, it will trigger your gag reflex and you'll say "see, it tastes crap!".

    The other reasons are mundane: Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not a rule book or a history book based on one particular age. It is timeless poetry. There are parts with historical references but ultimately, the message is timeless.

    Ishna
     
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  5. Shanger

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    What I am trying to say is that if GGSJ is from god, then it is not unreasonable to expect it to contain some sort of information that shows that is it genuinely from god, do you see my point?

    I will read any shabads you quote as long as you explain why it is something that not just any old human could have wrote.

    Thanks for reply
    No disrespect intended but saying that
    What I then would like to ask is what makes you get those feelings?

    & could you experience the same feelings from other text written by an ordinary person? If the answer to the 2nd question is no, I am guessing it is because GGSJ is authentic/special in that it is from god, so I'd like to ask what makes it special?

    No disrespect intended but from my reading so far, I find myself thinking "I get the point God is almighty/great, we cannot possibly understand him etc, cut to the chase". I expect there will be some good lessons and wise words but I cannot accept it as being from God without something extraordinary.

    I ask for special proof because without it, how do you know the GGSJ was not just written by intelligent or misguided humans who wanted to form a cult? (I understand sikhi is very tolerant compared to other religions but the point still stands).


    Also I dont think you can use the analogy of a strawberry, taste is subjective for one reason. A better comparison would be me saying prove to me a strawberry grows from a seed, and you showing me the stages from the plant seed etc. Like here I am asking for reasons why GGSJ is from god, and requesting text which shows that it is. I will not go out of my way to read any shabads in a biased way.

    If I used your logic i would read any religious book and sit back and wait for feelings of awesomeness.


    & Thanks for your answers so far
     
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  6. jnanavan

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    I believe here is youre major flaw. It sounds like to me that you are approaching sikhi which is an EASTERN religion from a very WESTERN religious standpoint. You are not going to find ANY indian religion(hindu, sikh, buddhist, jain etc) which CLAIMS to be "the true" religion. This sort of thinking comes from the ABRAHAMIC religions. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are a MIX/MASH or previous/ancient, middle eastern cults/traditions . The messages in all 3 abrahamic texts many times goes against reason, logic and common sense and is full of inconsistencis and contradiction. All the research i have done AND my PERSONAL experience has lead me to believe that all 3 religions are false and where created as a tool to control people. This is why you find these 3 religions constantly claming to be the "TRUE" word of god or the "TRUE" path as all 3 compete for more political power in numbers.

    In indian religions you DONT find this claim. This sort of narrow minded thinking just dosent fit in with indian religions(to the most part). So you are not going to find ANYTHING in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that is going to give you "evidence" that sikhi is THE religion or THE religions of GOD.

    Guru Nanak and the 10 masters did not intend to bring the TRUE religion of GOD or the TRUE path to the world for the fact that there is NO such thing. Knowledge appears spontaneously throught the ages only to be LOST then re-appears again when the time is proper. What we are going through right NOW has happened before thousands of times and will continue to happen. The universe/god/existence is circular in nature and very abstract, you are trying to understand existence in a very linear analitycal way. The 10 masters manifested on earth to deliver to humanity the "New way of living in Kali Yuga(dark age)". Therefore in GGS you will find "sublime and timeless poetry" which will HELP a sikh(learner/diciple) on the spiritual path live through these times.

    Shanger, in the east GOD is not a man, master or person. God is a harmony, a force, a energy, existence, a very ABSTRACT thing. More of a process then a specific thing. I HIGHLY recommend you watch THE MATRIX 2. The whole movie is about the circular nature of the universe and neo even meets "GOD". Listen to "the creater" speak, listen to the "marovingian" speak, notice HOW the "key maker" dies and his last statement. Notice how zion and the whole war with machines is simply a process which had happened 5 times before(circular nature of reality).
     
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  7. Ishna

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    Shanger ji

    I will try again to explain my reasoning, from my personal perspective, which may differ from other people's experiences. I am still learning, and I've got a very, very long way to go before getting even close to the level of others here.

    Well, it's not from God exactly. It was written by humans who had a very, very good insight to spirituality, logic and truth. Their light shone brighter than others, but they were not God in a literal, personified sense. They taught how to live good, honest lives. Work hard, share your bounty, live truthfully, have faith and try at all times to be mindful of the One Universal Creative Force and the natural course of events. Don't try to fight it, find the flow and go with it. Arg, hard to explain, losing coherency, sorry.

    You said in your first post that the Quran talks about embyology (no idea what that is) which they couldn't have known about at the time. Why isn't that proof enough for you to follow Islam? What kind, and how much, proof do you need? Without faith and an open mind one is bound to challenge spirituality.

    The poetry is what makes me get those feelings. I read it, and recognise truth in the words put in such a beautiful form.

    I get the same feeling from other authors, like Khalil Gibran.

    I get the same feeling when I read about NASA projects and look at awesome photos of outer space and go "wow... we will never know the extent of this Creation... how much more there is that we can't even SEE".

    I get the same feeling when I hear about hero stories, people risking their lives to save others. I actually got the same feeling recently when they were interviewing a man on the radio about how he was trying to save a mother and her two sons from drowning in a flooded river and he was only able to save one son. The other boy had said "take my brother first" and by the time they got the boy to the bank his mum and brother were washed away. :(

    Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is special to me because I see it as containing so much wisdom and beauty and truth and it is like I'm the strings of the violin and it's the bow. No other religious text is as completely beautiful, in my humble opinion. There are parts of most religious texts which are beautiful and do contain truth. But Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji contains the most chocolate in the prettiest wrapper, I think. icecreamkudi

    See my question re Quran above.

    Hopefully other Sikhs won't hit me here, and I say this with all due respect and with great love and appreciation for all 10 Gurus, but does it really matter if the person who wrote it was a nutter on a bender (and I'm in NO WAY saying any of the Gurus were nutters on benders!!)? If it looks like truth, and it smells like truth, then it's truth against my measure.

    Ah, but religion/spirituality is also subjective. Only YOU can experience it, just like only YOU can taste the strawberry and come to your own conclusion about the taste of it. You can't SEE spiritual fulfillment with your eyes like you can measure the growth of a strawberry from a seed. You can look at the history of Sikhs and see Guru Tegh Bahadur die for the right of Hindus to practice their religion.

    Well, that's the idea. If you can find the religious book which fills you with awe, inspiration, truth and motivates you to live as an honest, productive individual who stands up for the just cause, then go for it!

    It just so happens that lots of Sikhs get all that from their religion and their scripture.

    I await your response to my post and in particular, my questions, please.

    In good faith and with copious amounts of Chardi Kala,
    Ishna
     
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  8. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    my two cents on "embryology"...
    Any one who has access to aborted foetuses in various stages of its growth..would be an expert in "embryology".
    Just a week or so..an aborted foetus is..a lump of blood..
    after that each week..adds to its shape/mass...
    a fully developed foetus looks liek a baby...
    I have met totally illiterate farmers in Punjab who "know" all about cows and goats...and how their embroys look like at various stages...nothing much actually..a "foetus/embryo" is developed Right here on earth inside a living woman....not like its made on Mars out of sight of man...and IF one has access to many women in different stages of development..its easy to be an embryologist expert.

    Compare this to "knolwedge" about the Billions of Suns, Moons, Planet, stars galaxies..etc etc and the SUN being the Centre of the Solar System and NOT THE EARTH which the "god's books say it is...NO Man could have this "knowledge" as its scope is beyond this earth/living beings on Earth. Since the "gods" books were proved wrong by galileo and Science...that one thing is sufficient proof that its mans limited knowledge and not god's.

    My 2 cents worth
     
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  9. Shanger

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    Thanks I'm glad that's how you see me.
     
  10. Shanger

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    In indian religions you DONT find this claim. This sort of narrow minded thinking just dosent fit in with indian religions(to the most part). So you are not going to find ANYTHING in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that is going to give you "evidence" that sikhi is THE religion or THE religions of GOD. [/QUOTE]

    Fair points, however the fact that Sikhi says that there is a god, and SGGSJ instructs people to meditate on gods name etc means that there is a god. That is a big claim to make that surely should require proof? Or SGGSJ should contain something which shows it is not just man-made in terms of a controlling device right?

    But then I have to ask what makes the 10 Gurus masters, why do their teachings need to be followed?

    I have no problem accepting that the majority of their teachings was for a more peaceful world, but I don't see how it can be related to god.

    With regards to the "sublime and timeless poetry", could you give an example along with an explanation so I can see where you are coming from please.

    Yeah I know god is not something physical, or something that humans can understand etc. BUT how do I know it is not just made up?

    Thanks for reply.
     
  11. Shanger

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    If it was written by humans then how we do know that there is a god, no human can really know that? Unless you want to say that the Gurus did because of their brighter light, but what made them more spiritual than normal people?
    From their writings to me they seem intelligent and on the whole good people, but I don't see how it connects with God or spirituality etc.

    Embryology is about reproduction in the very early stages, before foetus etc.

    I also said if you read the first post again, that their explanation was FLAWED, the fact that there are errors means I will not believe it as coming from god.

    I want reasonable proof that the religion is not just made up by humans for the sake of controlling people.

    Well then if someone wrote a book telling you to be a great person, pray to god, and it was written in poetry with content that brought out many emotions, would you choose to follow that instead? And if yes/no why?


     
  12. Shanger

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    Like I said before, I believe the islamic version is flawed, it was an example of a reason muslims give (however wrong) to prove their religion, they believe that the description of the embryo in the womb etc is something that only modern science could prove.

    I was asking what kind of reasons sikhs would have.

    Your point on space/stars etc is a good one, does sikhi contain that knowledge? If so that is the kind of stuff I was seeking and would appreciate a quote/source.
     
  13. findingmyway

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    Show me anywhere in the Guru Granth Sahib ji which is about controlling people and I will become atheist today.

    Sikhism is a personal journey between God and the individual. It is for our personal benefit, not Gods. It is a way of empowering the individual to help themselves to be the best person they can without judging the world. That is why it is different from other religions.
     
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  14. Shanger

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    Requires people to mediate on gods name.

    Avoid halal meat (or meat full stop for some people but that is another discussion).

    Avoid alcohol.

    The 5Ks.

    I'm sure there are more, chastity etc.

    They are instructions to control people however you look at it. You can become the best person you can be without judging the world, without religion. That is why I ask why should one follow sikhi at all? Why not secular humanism or something like that?
     
  15. Ishna

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    I don't have time for a complete reply.

    But some people just enjoy the sense of community, of belonging to a group, of feeling like they're working on their spirituality and reaching out to the Creator of the entire Universe and so much more we can't even see.

    It doesn't matter if Gyani ji posts the quotes about space expanding and collapsing and expanding again. Not even that has been proven by science. Any "proof" we proved, you Shanger will refute it, because it seems you are unwilling to have faith.

    If secular humanism makes more sense to you, why are you so curious about Sikhi?

    If you don't like the artwork, I can explain all the nuances but you still won't like it.

    Ishna
     
  16. Shanger

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    People who create cults prey on peoples need to feel a sense of belonging. That is how evil people con many people into sacrificing money, time etc for them.

    But if that is what people want to do then (form together for the sake of having a community) it is fair enough, but Sikhi is assuming that there is a God. This must be proven if it is to be taken seriously.


    It has been proven, without getting to technical (I don't know much anyway) the universe is expanding from a single point, so if you reverse those steps you can assume everything came from one point, heat/energy would have generated pressure hence the big bang etc.

    I haven't been given anything to refute other than being told that there is sublime poetry etc, if I'm given something that shows that the SGGSJ is from/connected to God then I will read it fairly.

    Logical thinking MUST be applied to everything, especially religion.

    If having faith means accepting without critical thinking then that sends a very bad message in my opinion.

    Because I was born in a sikh family
    Like I said-

    I could write my own religious book, and say to you that you need to be open-minded and willing to accept, and refrain from fighting.

    Then say if you do not feel it, it is because you are not ready yet. If you accept it I have fooled you, if you do not I say it is because you're not looking at it in the right way etc. Either way you lose.

    However if you explained how the book is not just wise words from men with good intentions, but connected to God then I will judge it fairly.
     
  17. Seeker9

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    Dear Shangar )i

    These are good fundametal questions and I am glad you asked them as I have really enjoyed reading the replies

    Before I attemt an answer I should be grateful if you could clarify a couple of things for me:

    1) You have referred to a need for proof. What would be the nature of the proof you seek? What would satisfy you? Something supernatural perhaps? Do you know what it is you seek?

    2) Science - for every reference you can find alluding to scientific knowledge in The Bible or Qu'ran, I think you will be able to find counter-arguments online fairly easily: And in terms of Spiritual development why would it be relevant anyway? The builders of Stonehenge had knowledge. The builders of the Pyramids had knowledge. Both structures pre-date the Qu'ran by thousands of years!

    In terms of personal spiritual progress I would suggest the Science angle is completely irrelevant!

    I will post again once you have replied
    :redturban:
     
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  18. Shanger

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    Hello

    Anything that can prove something like there is a god, sikhi is connected to god etc.

    I would like some amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time.

    Or an explanation of how the world was made.

    Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines.

    I don't think that quran or the bible are from god, and I know that there are errors in both books proven by science, which is why I would never follow either religion.

    My point is that if there is no proof then there is no point following the religion, I (and many others) don't need spiritual progression/development to live a good life, and if I was to try to get it from Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ then I would need proof, it would be irrational to go on blind-faith.

    Thanks for replies
     
  19. Seeker9

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?


    !et's not go off at a tangent here but current thinking from leading theoretical physicists such as Prof Stephen Hawking is that the above is a cyclical process so that the universe has always existed
     
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  20. Seeker9

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    Dear Shangar Ji

    You appear to have confirmed the futility of this debate by stating you have no need for spiritual progression

    I and many others do have a need which is why people follow a particular path that suits them

    May I ask if you are an Atheist as there are already a number of good Atheist threads on this forum

    as stated before, I consider the science thing to be irrelevant unless you suggest we should start worshipping the builders of Stonehenge or the Pyramids

    there are a number of things that make Sikhism stand out from the crowd but is there much point going into them as if a miracle is what you seek, then i doubt any religion would pass that test
     
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  21. Seeker9

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    Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

    Dear all

    Apologies for the quality of my recent posts as I am doing this from a phone !
     

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