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Do Sikhs Fear God?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Questioner, May 17, 2009.

  1. Questioner

    Questioner
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    Should a Sikh Fear God?
    Keep all anwsers to the point. Try and be honest and fair at all times and back up what u say with sources (preferably religious). Opinionated statements based on popular fallicies are NOT :welcome:. Pls StICk To THe ToPIc, Thank you.
     
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  3. dalsingh

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    No, Sikhs love God. We leave all that fear based believing to others. :happy:
     
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  4. dalsingh

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    True Sikhs do not like fear.
     

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  5. GillAUS

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    Sikhs strive to do things out of love and devotion to God, not because we simply fear God's wrath.

    That is the fundamental difference between Sikh philosophy and that of the Abrahamic doctrines.
     
  6. dalsingh

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    Excellent post Benjamin.

    This "fear" referred to in your quote. Is this the type of fear that characterises Abrahamic faiths? Is this a fear of punishment or eternal damnation?

    Fear of a vengeful God? (nirvair)

    Have you met many Sikhs? Is fear a key driving force of their faith?

    The awe Sikhs hold God in (wah) and the desire to merge back with the eternal source are driving forces of Sikhism. If there were ever people who dispised fear in general it is Sikhs.

    That being said, the only fear to condone is the fear of God. Not fear of any people or the threats of any belief systems no matter how much they claim to represent God's will.

    Be careful not to interprete the bani you did in a manner that aligns Sikhism with similar ideological concepts to that represented by Islam or Christianity. There is a major distinction and difference that must be understood.

    ਤੂੰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਜੀ ਹਰਿ ਏਕੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਮਾਣਾ
    तूं घट घट अंतरि सरब निरंतरि जी हरि एको पुरखु समाणा ॥
    Ŧūʼn gẖat gẖat anṯar sarab niranṯar jī har eko purakẖ samāṇā.
    You are constant in each and every heart, and in all things. O Dear Lord, you are the One.

    ਇਕਿ ਦਾਤੇ ਇਕਿ ਭੇਖਾਰੀ ਜੀ ਸਭਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਚੋਜ ਵਿਡਾਣਾ
    इकि दाते इकि भेखारी जी सभि तेरे चोज विडाणा ॥
    Ik ḏāṯe ik bẖekẖārī jī sabẖ ṯere cẖoj vidāṇā.
    Some are givers, and some are beggars. This is all Your Wondrous Play.

    ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਦਾਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਭੁਗਤਾ ਜੀ ਹਉ ਤੁਧੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਜਾਣਾ
    तूं आपे दाता आपे भुगता जी हउ तुधु बिनु अवरु न जाणा ॥
    Ŧūʼn āpe ḏāṯā āpe bẖugṯā jī ha▫o ṯuḏẖ bin avar na jāṇā.
    You Yourself are the Giver, and You Yourself are the Enjoyer. I know no other than You.

    ਤੂੰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੇਅੰਤੁ ਬੇਅੰਤੁ ਜੀ ਤੇਰੇ ਕਿਆ ਗੁਣ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣਾ
    तूं पारब्रहमु बेअंतु बेअंतु जी तेरे किआ गुण आखि वखाणा ॥
    Ŧūʼn pārbarahm be▫anṯ be▫anṯ jī ṯere ki▫ā guṇ ākẖ vakẖāṇā.
    You are the Supreme Lord God, Limitless and Infinite. What Virtues of Yours can I speak of and describe?

    ਜੋ ਸੇਵਹਿ ਜੋ ਸੇਵਹਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਜੀ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਨ ਕੁਰਬਾਣਾ ॥੨॥
    जो सेवहि जो सेवहि तुधु जी जनु नानकु तिन कुरबाणा ॥२॥
    Jo sevėh jo sevėh ṯuḏẖ jī jan Nānak ṯin kurbāṇā. ||2||
    Unto those who serve You, unto those who serve You, Dear Lord, servant Nanak is a sacrifice. ||2||

    ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵਹਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਜੀ ਸੇ ਜਨ ਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਸੁਖਵਾਸੀ
    हरि धिआवहि हरि धिआवहि तुधु जी से जन जुग महि सुखवासी ॥
    Har ḏẖi▫āvahi har ḏẖi▫āvahi ṯuḏẖ jī se jan jug mėh sukẖvāsī.
    Those who meditate on You, Lord, those who meditate on You-those humble beings dwell in peace in this world.



    ਜਿਨ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਜਿਨ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਸਮਾਸੀ
    जिन सेविआ जिन सेविआ मेरा हरि जी ते हरि हरि रूपि समासी ॥
    Jin sevi▫ā jin sevi▫ā merā har jī ṯe har har rūp samāsī.
    Those who serve, those who serve my Dear Lord, are absorbed into the Being of the Lord, Har, Har.

    ਸੇ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੇ ਧੰਨੁ ਜਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਜੀ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਨ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਸੀ ॥੩॥
    से धंनु से धंनु जिन हरि धिआइआ जी जनु नानकु तिन बलि जासी ॥३॥
    Se ḏẖan se ḏẖan jin har ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā jī jan Nānak ṯin bal jāsī. ||3||
    Blessed are they, blessed are they, who meditate on their Dear Lord. Servant Nanak is a sacrifice to them. ||3||

    ਤੇਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਭੰਡਾਰ ਜੀ ਭਰੇ ਬਿਅੰਤ ਬੇਅੰਤਾ
    तेरी भगति तेरी भगति भंडार जी भरे बिअंत बेअंता ॥
    Ŧerī bẖagaṯ ṯerī bẖagaṯ bẖandār jī bẖare bi▫anṯ be▫anṯā.
    Devotion to You, devotion to You, is a treasure overflowing, infinite and beyond measure.

    ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਸਲਾਹਨਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਜੀ ਹਰਿ ਅਨਿਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਨੰਤਾ
    तेरे भगत तेरे भगत सलाहनि तुधु जी हरि अनिक अनेक अनंता ॥
    Ŧere bẖagaṯ ṯere bẖagaṯ salāhan ṯuḏẖ jī har anik anek ananṯā.
    Your devotees, Your devotees praise You, Dear Lord, in many and various and countless ways.

    ਤੇਰੀ ਅਨਿਕ ਤੇਰੀ ਅਨਿਕ ਕਰਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਜੀ ਤਪੁ ਤਾਪਹਿ ਜਪਹਿ ਬੇਅੰਤਾ
    तेरी अनिक तेरी अनिक करहि हरि पूजा जी तपु तापहि जपहि बेअंता ॥
    Ŧerī anik ṯerī anik karahi har pūjā jī ṯap ṯāpėh jāpėh be▫anṯā.
    For You, many, for You, so very many perform worship services, O Dear Infinite Lord; they practice disciplined meditation and chant endlessly.

    ਤੇਰੇ ਅਨੇਕ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਨੇਕ ਪੜਹਿ ਬਹੁ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਜੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਿਆ ਖਟੁ ਕਰਮ ਕਰੰਤਾ
    तेरे अनेक तेरे अनेक पड़हि बहु सिम्रिति सासत जी करि किरिआ खटु करम करंता ॥
    Ŧere anek ṯere anek paṛėh baho simriṯ sāsaṯ jī kar kiri▫ā kẖat karam karanṯā.
    For You, many, for You, so very many read the various Simritees and Shaastras. They perform rituals and religious rites.

    ਸੇ ਭਗਤ ਸੇ ਭਗਤ ਭਲੇ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀ ਜੋ ਭਾਵਹਿ ਮੇਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਵੰਤਾ ॥੪॥
    से भगत से भगत भले जन नानक जी जो भावहि मेरे हरि भगवंता ॥४॥
    Se bẖagaṯ se bẖagaṯ bẖale jan Nānak jī jo bẖāvėh mere har bẖagvanṯā. ||4||
    Those devotees, those devotees are sublime, O servant Nanak, who are pleasing to my Dear Lord God. ||4||

    ਤੂੰ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀ ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਕੋਈ
    तूं आदि पुरखु अपर्मपरु करता जी तुधु जेवडु अवरु न कोई ॥
    Ŧūʼn āḏ purakẖ aprampar karṯā jī ṯuḏẖ jevad avar na ko▫ī.
    You are the Primal Being, the Most Wonderful Creator. There is no other as Great as You.

    ਤੂੰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਤੂੰ ਏਕੋ ਜੀ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਸੋਈ
    तूं जुगु जुगु एको सदा सदा तूं एको जी तूं निहचलु करता सोई ॥
    Ŧūʼn jug jug eko saḏā saḏā ṯūʼn eko jī ṯūʼn nihcẖal karṯā so▫ī.
    Age after age, You are the One. Forever and ever, You are the One. You never change, O Creator Lord.

    ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਵਰਤੈ ਜੀ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ
    तुधु आपे भावै सोई वरतै जी तूं आपे करहि सु होई ॥
    Ŧuḏẖ āpe bẖāvai so▫ī varṯai jī ṯūʼn āpe karahi so ho▫ī.
    Everything happens according to Your Will. You Yourself accomplish all that occurs.

    ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਭ ਉਪਾਈ ਜੀ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਸਭ ਗੋਈ
    तुधु आपे स्रिसटि सभ उपाई जी तुधु आपे सिरजि सभ गोई ॥
    Ŧuḏẖ āpe sarisat sabẖ upā▫ī jī ṯuḏẖ āpe siraj sabẖ go▫ī.
    You Yourself created the entire universe, and having fashioned it, You Yourself shall destroy it all.

    ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੇ ਜੀ ਜੋ ਸਭਸੈ ਕਾ ਜਾਣੋਈ ॥੫॥੧॥
    जनु नानकु गुण गावै करते के जी जो सभसै का जाणोई ॥५॥१॥
    Jan Nānak guṇ gāvai karṯe ke jī jo sabẖsai kā jāṇo▫ī. ||5||1||
    Servant Nanak sings the Glorious Praises of the Dear Creator, the Knower of all. ||5||1||
     
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  7. dalsingh

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    Look at references to fear in bani holistically. From my understanding (which could be wrong), we fear God with the ultimate aim of eradicating all of our fears and living in a sehaj state.

    If fear is an early motivator, shabad is designed to ultimately destroy it within a Sikh. Does this make sense?
     
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  8. dalsingh

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    Waheguru is the destroyer of our fears! :wah:

    ਸ੍ਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ
    स्रीरागु महला ५ ॥
    Sarīrāg mėhlā 5.
    Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:

    ਸੋਈ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਜੀਅੜੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਾਹਾਂ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ
    सोई धिआईऐ जीअड़े सिरि साहां पातिसाहु ॥
    So▫ī ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai jī▫aṛe sir sāhāʼn pāṯisāhu.
    Meditate on Him, O my soul; He is the Supreme Lord over kings and emperors.

    ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਕਰਿ ਆਸ ਮਨ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਭਸੁ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ
    तिस ही की करि आस मन जिस का सभसु वेसाहु ॥
    Ŧis hī kī kar ās man jis kā sabẖas vesāhu.
    Place the hopes of your mind in the One, in whom all have faith.

    ਸਭਿ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਛਡਿ ਕੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਪਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
    सभि सिआणपा छडि कै गुर की चरणी पाहु ॥१॥
    Sabẖ si▫āṇpā cẖẖad kai gur kī cẖarṇī pāhu. ||1||
    Give up all your clever tricks, and grasp the Feet of the Guru. ||1||

    ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਸੇਤੀ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਉ
    मन मेरे सुख सहज सेती जपि नाउ ॥
    Man mere sukẖ sahj seṯī jap nā▫o.
    O my mind, chant the Name with intuitive peace and poise.

    ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਤੂੰ ਗੁਣ ਗੋਇੰਦ ਨਿਤ ਗਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    आठ पहर प्रभु धिआइ तूं गुण गोइंद नित गाउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Āṯẖ pahar parabẖ ḏẖi▫ā▫e ṯūʼn guṇ go▫inḏ niṯ gā▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    Twenty-four hours a day, meditate on God. Constantly sing the Glories of the Lord of the Universe. ||1||Pause||

    ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਸਰਨੀ ਪਰੁ ਮਨਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਕੋਇ
    तिस की सरनी परु मना जिसु जेवडु अवरु न कोइ ॥
    Ŧis kī sarnī par manā jis jevad avar na ko▫e.
    Seek His Shelter, O my mind; there is no other as Great as He.

    ਜਿਸੁ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ਘਣਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਦਰਦੁ ਮੂਲੇ ਹੋਇ
    जिसु सिमरत सुखु होइ घणा दुखु दरदु न मूले होइ ॥
    Jis simraṯ sukẖ ho▫e gẖaṇā ḏukẖ ḏaraḏ na mūle ho▫e.
    Remembering Him in meditation, a profound peace is obtained. Pain and suffering will not touch you at all.

    ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਕਰਿ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥
    सदा सदा करि चाकरी प्रभु साहिबु सचा सोइ ॥२॥
    Saḏā saḏā kar cẖākrī parabẖ sāhib sacẖā so▫e. ||2||
    Forever and ever, work for God; He is our True Lord and Master. ||2||

    ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਕਟੀਐ ਜਮ ਕੀ ਫਾਸ
    साधसंगति होइ निरमला कटीऐ जम की फास ॥
    Sāḏẖsangaṯ ho▫e nirmalā katī▫ai jam kī fās.
    In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you shall become absolutely pure, and the noose of death shall be cut away.



    ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨੁ ਤਾਂ ਕਾਰਜੁ ਆਵੈ ਰਾਸਿ ॥੩॥
    मिहर करे जिसु मिहरवानु तां कारजु आवै रासि ॥३॥
    Mihar kare jis miharvān ṯāʼn kāraj āvai rās. ||3||
    Showing His Mercy, the Merciful Master shall resolve your affairs. ||3||

    ਬਹੁਤੋ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ਊਚੋ ਊਚਾ ਥਾਉ
    बहुतो बहुतु वखाणीऐ ऊचो ऊचा थाउ ॥
    Bahuṯo bahuṯ vakẖāṇī▫ai ūcẖo ūcẖā thā▫o.
    The Lord is said to be the Greatest of the Great; His Kingdom is the Highest of the High.

    ਵਰਨਾ ਚਿਹਨਾ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਸਕਾਉ
    वरना चिहना बाहरा कीमति कहि न सकाउ ॥
    varnā cẖihnā bāhrā kīmaṯ kahi na sakā▫o.
    He has no color or mark; His Value cannot be estimated.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਦੇਵਹੁ ਅਪੁਣਾ ਨਾਉ ॥੪॥੭॥੭੭॥
    नानक कउ प्रभ मइआ करि सचु देवहु अपुणा नाउ ॥४॥७॥७७॥
    Nānak ka▫o parabẖ ma▫i▫ā kar sacẖ ḏevhu apuṇā nā▫o. ||4||7||77||
    Please show Mercy to Nanak, God, and bless him with Your True Name. ||4||7||77||
     
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    #7 dalsingh, May 17, 2009
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  9. dalsingh

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    Benjamin

    Before I respond, please answer my 2 simple questions:

    (1) Are you a Muslim who believes in the Prophet Mohhammad?
    (2) Are you here to learn about Sikhism or do dawa?
     
  10. Randip Singh

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    I have just been reading the Gurmukhi and version and there is something lost in translation. The word should be more like say when someone is about to dive off a high spring board and one has apprehension/fear/respect kind of thing. Its more like a healthy respect.

    It is not like the Abrahamic God where one should fear God vengeance fire and brimstone.
     
    #9 Randip Singh, May 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  11. dalsingh

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    Benjamin

    Look at all of the returns on fear in your search. Do you not see the message that God removes all fears once a certain level of spirituality is achieved?

    Plus can anyone tell me if it is a big sin for a Muslim to deny his/her faith?
     
  12. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Randip ji

    I agree with you analysis. The "fear" of retribution is not a Sikh concept. The fear mentioned here is akin to "awe" -- as we submit in awe to His greatness before us. I will find the Sanskrit derivation to make this point clear in a few minutes. :)
     
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  13. dalsingh

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    Benjamin, I looked further into one of the shabads you quoted above and found this. Look who it's addressed to.

    ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ਘਰੁ
    सिरीरागु महला १ घरु ४ ॥
    Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4.
    Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:
    ਸੋਈ ਮਉਲਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਗੁ ਮਉਲਿਆ ਹਰਿਆ ਕੀਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ
    सोई मउला जिनि जगु मउलिआ हरिआ कीआ संसारो ॥
    So▫ī ma▫ulā jin jag ma▫oli▫ā hari▫ā kī▫ā sansāro.
    He is the Master who has made the world bloom; He makes the Universe blossom forth, fresh and green.
    ਆਬ ਖਾਕੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਬੰਧਿ ਰਹਾਈ ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ ॥੧॥
    आब खाकु जिनि बंधि रहाई धंनु सिरजणहारो ॥१॥
    Āb kẖāk jin banḏẖ rahā▫ī ḏẖan sirjaṇhāro. ||1||
    He holds the water and the land in bondage. Hail to the Creator Lord! ||1||

    ਤਾ ਤੂ ਮੁਲਾ ਤਾ ਤੂ ਕਾਜੀ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਖੁਦਾਈ
    ता तू मुला ता तू काजी जाणहि नामु खुदाई ॥
    Ŧā ṯū mulā ṯā ṯū kājī jāṇėh nām kẖuḏā▫ī.
    You are a Mullah, and you are a Qazi, only when you know the Naam, the Name of God.
    ਜੇ ਬਹੁਤੇਰਾ ਪੜਿਆ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਕੋ ਰਹੈ ਭਰੀਐ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
    जे बहुतेरा पड़िआ होवहि को रहै न भरीऐ पाई ॥२॥
    Je bahuṯerā paṛi▫ā hovėh ko rahai na bẖarī▫ai pā▫ī. ||2||
    You may be very educated, but no one can remain when the measure of life is full. ||2||
    ਸੋਈ ਕਾਜੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਆਪੁ ਤਜਿਆ ਇਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਕੀਆ ਆਧਾਰੋ
    सोई काजी जिनि आपु तजिआ इकु नामु कीआ आधारो ॥
    So▫ī kājī jin āp ṯaji▫ā ik nām kī▫ā āḏẖāro.
    He alone is a Qazi, who renounces selfishness and conceit, and makes the One Name his Support.
    ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਜਾਸੀ ਸਚਾ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ ॥੩॥
    है भी होसी जाइ न जासी सचा सिरजणहारो ॥३॥
    Hai bẖī hosī jā▫e na jāsī sacẖā sirjaṇhāro. ||3||
    The True Creator Lord is, and shall always be. He was not born; He shall not die. ||3||
    ਪੰਜ ਵਖਤ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਹਿ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਕੁਰਾਣਾ
    पंज वखत निवाज गुजारहि पड़हि कतेब कुराणा ॥
    Panj vakẖaṯ nivāj gujārėh paṛėh kaṯeb kurāṇā.
    You may chant your prayers five times each day; you may read the Bible and the Koran.
    ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਗੋਰ ਸਦੇਈ ਰਹਿਓ ਪੀਣਾ ਖਾਣਾ ॥੪॥੨੮॥
    नानकु आखै गोर सदेई रहिओ पीणा खाणा ॥४॥२८॥
    Nānak ākẖai gor saḏe▫ī rahi▫o pīṇā kẖāṇā. ||4||28||
    Says Nanak, the grave is calling you, and now your food and drink are finished. ||4||28||
     
  14. spnadmin

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    भी करतारहु डरणा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Bẖī karṯārahu darṇā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    so live in the Fear of God the Creator. ||1||Pause||

    Dalsingh ji

    Thank you for giving the context of the shabad. The test would be if the Sanskrit source of darna fits this vaar -- as we know that the mullah is being asked to reconsider his egotistical and prideful attitude. Especially in the context of the spectre of death which domes to the powerful as well as to the weak.

    Darna in Sanskirt (originally daraaNaa)- not fear but fixed attention, contemplation. So would fear in this instance imply not to the emotion of fear and flight, but rather a caution to the Mullah to Live in "rapt attention, fixed attention, riven in contemplation of the Creative Divine who is more powerful than any mullah? Not so much fear as submission to the vision of greatness. Best i can do.
     
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  15. dalsingh

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    Aad ji

    That is really well put and actually gets closer to how I perceive the nature of this "fear" to be, than I could have ever expressed myself!

    Is it that we "fear" God in a way that reminds us of them constantly and of our relative insignificance in this universe? It is not dread!

    The bani that we are looking at is obviously addressed to a Mullah. I get the impression Guru ji is referring to the cleric type who is full of ego over his education/intelligence and ritualistic adherence to prescribed prayers. It is a warning essentially.
     
  16. Tejwant Singh

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    Benjamin Chaudry,

    Guru fateh.

    You claim to be a Christian but Chaudry is not a Christian name. It is a Muslim name, so one wonders why this discrepency.

    BTW, Where in India do you live and when did your parents convert to Christianity and why? Were they low caste Hindus?

    The reason I am asking this is to I can understand you better.

    You write:




    Before I can respond to that, I would like you to tell me the way you see God and is God sans duality?

    Hope to learn from each other.

    Tejwant Singh


     
  17. Randip Singh

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    The word in Gurmukhi is "Bhai" pronounced Bhaay, and it is not like "Darnaa"!

    I think another point to note is Dal Singh's point, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji addresses different audiences at different points. Bare that in mind.

    Note where Darna is used in the second line it is addressing a Muslim:


    ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ਘਰੁ
    सिरीरागु महला १ घरु ४ ॥
    Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4.
    Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:

    ਸੋਈ ਮਉਲਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਗੁ ਮਉਲਿਆ ਹਰਿਆ ਕੀਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ
    सोई मउला जिनि जगु मउलिआ हरिआ कीआ संसारो ॥
    So▫ī ma▫ulā jin jag ma▫oli▫ā hari▫ā kī▫ā sansāro.
    He is the Master who has made the world bloom; He makes the Universe blossom forth, fresh and green.

    ਆਬ ਖਾਕੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਬੰਧਿ ਰਹਾਈ ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ ॥੧॥
    आब खाकु जिनि बंधि रहाई धंनु सिरजणहारो ॥१॥
    Āb kẖāk jin banḏẖ rahā▫ī ḏẖan sirjaṇhāro. ||1||
    He holds the water and the land in bondage. Hail to the Creator Lord! ||1||

    ਮਰਣਾ ਮੁਲਾ ਮਰਣਾ
    मरणा मुला मरणा ॥
    Marṇā mulā marṇā.
    Death, O Mullah-death will come,

    ਭੀ ਕਰਤਾਰਹੁ ਡਰਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    भी करतारहु डरणा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Bẖī karṯārahu darṇā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    so live in the Fear of God the Creator. ||1||Pause||

    ਤਾ ਤੂ ਮੁਲਾ ਤਾ ਤੂ ਕਾਜੀ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਖੁਦਾਈ
    ता तू मुला ता तू काजी जाणहि नामु खुदाई ॥
    Ŧā ṯū mulā ṯā ṯū kājī jāṇėh nām kẖuḏā▫ī.
    You are a Mullah, and you are a Qazi, only when you know the Naam, the Name of God.

    ਜੇ ਬਹੁਤੇਰਾ ਪੜਿਆ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਕੋ ਰਹੈ ਭਰੀਐ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
    जे बहुतेरा पड़िआ होवहि को रहै न भरीऐ पाई ॥२॥
    Je bahuṯerā paṛi▫ā hovėh ko rahai na bẖarī▫ai pā▫ī. ||2||
    You may be very educated, but no one can remain when the measure of life is full. ||2||

    ਸੋਈ ਕਾਜੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਆਪੁ ਤਜਿਆ ਇਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਕੀਆ ਆਧਾਰੋ
    सोई काजी जिनि आपु तजिआ इकु नामु कीआ आधारो ॥
    So▫ī kājī jin āp ṯaji▫ā ik nām kī▫ā āḏẖāro.
    He alone is a Qazi, who renounces selfishness and conceit, and makes the One Name his Support.

    ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਜਾਸੀ ਸਚਾ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ ॥੩॥
    है भी होसी जाइ न जासी सचा सिरजणहारो ॥३॥
    Hai bẖī hosī jā▫e na jāsī sacẖā sirjaṇhāro. ||3||
    The True Creator Lord is, and shall always be. He was not born; He shall not die. ||3||

    ਪੰਜ ਵਖਤ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਹਿ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਕੁਰਾਣਾ
    पंज वखत निवाज गुजारहि पड़हि कतेब कुराणा ॥
    Panj vakẖaṯ nivāj gujārėh paṛėh kaṯeb kurāṇā.
    You may chant your prayers five times each day; you may read the Bible and the Koran.

    ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਗੋਰ ਸਦੇਈ ਰਹਿਓ ਪੀਣਾ ਖਾਣਾ ॥੪॥੨੮॥
    नानकु आखै गोर सदेई रहिओ पीणा खाणा ॥४॥२८॥
    Nānak ākẖai gor saḏe▫ī rahi▫o pīṇā kẖāṇā. ||4||28||
    Says Nanak, the grave is calling you, and now your food and drink are finished. ||4||28||
     
    #16 Randip Singh, May 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  18. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Bhaiy is also used for DISCIPLINE...LAW of the Creator...see Asa dee Vaar....the Sun and the Moon obey the Laws of God....meaning they follwo Laws of Gravity etc set in motion by the Creator...
    How can we say the Sun is Darna ?? Scared ?? Fears ?? Certainly this is not the ususal Fear ??

    The biblical religions instill FEAR.....of retribution..Hell Fires and Brimstones..on those who DISOBEY ???
    Clear that thsi is NOT what Gurbani says about Bhaiy....not by a thousand billion miles...
     
  19. dalsingh

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    Benjamin

    You must understand that a central concept of Sikhi is estrangement from God. The aim of a practicing Sikh is to overcome this estrangement and become what I can only described as God centred, or one with God.

    Now that I've thought about your question I realise the initial motivation for this desire to exist in the truthful realm of God (sachkhand) varies from person to person. Yes, for some it may well be fear, for many others it will be a decision based on love. For others still it may be a path they tred following personal development. Do you understand that?

    Then from my understanding, as you read earlier, once a person progresses on this journey their state of existence alters in many ways. This can only be experienced and not fully described in words. One of the things that happens is all fear is lost. You can see this in the actions of deeply devout Sikh warriors and our Gurus.

    So this centralisation of fear doesn't really apply to Sikh ideology. The fact that you are not flowing with God's hukum is considered punishment enough.

    I think you have heard enough to continue your studies a bit more independently now Danny. Many useful books are available and the Internet is full of resources. Ultimately, realise that we cannot answer all of your quesions, as we too are on our own personal journey of discovery. Continue studying if you feel it.

    Hope this helps!
     
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  20. Randip Singh

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    People are explaining but you are missing the points. You are losing something in translation.

    You used the analogy that I used of a diver, and you said that the diver must be fearful. If the person who climbed at the top was in fear because he she was going to jump off to take their life, that is darna.:(

    Bhay is when the diver goes to the top, he has an apprehension, but he has dived many a time so he has faith. Bhay is like someone has something like "butterflies in the stomach".:happy:

    Fear Darna, is like when someone is about to dirty their trousers. :)

    Two very different things. It is darna that the Guru talks to the Mullah about because that is the type of God the Mullah knows.

    For a Sikh, the God he knows is like "butterfly's in the stomach".
     
  21. Randip Singh

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    The concept of heaven and hell in Sikhism is metaphorical.

    Sikhism talks about controlling the 5 thieves, that would leave self willed (Munmukh) rather the God willed (Gurmukh).

    The 5 thieves are Obsession with sex (Kaam), Rancor/Anger/Stubborness (Krodh), Obsession with Material things (Moh), gluttony, Greed, wanting more than ones fair share (Lobh), and Egotism/bigheadness/bloated pride (Hankaar).

    Sikhs believe each and everyone has God residing within us, and if one tunes on own internal dial to the "Gurmukh setting" where one controls the thieves then one becomes God realised/Truth realised. One lives in heaven.

    If one is engrossed by even one of the 5 thieves one lives as self centered and consumed with negativity and in a state of hell.

    In other words, God has given us choices to go one way or the other. It is up to us to find that God. The Sikh concept of God is to layout before you the path's and for you yourself to choose. You in effect punish yourself if you choose.

    I don't know whether you have seen someone die, but unfortunately I have witnessed a few too many recently, and those that have been obsessed their entire lives with the 5 thieves to a man have had pained looks on their faces, wheras those that have not have looked peaceful. So make of that what you want.
     
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    #20 Randip Singh, May 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016

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