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Did The Mandir ROTATE For Bhagat Namdev Ji?
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<blockquote data-quote="passingby" data-source="post: 140708" data-attributes="member: 13860"><p><strong>Re: Did the Mandir ROTATE for Bhagat Namdev Ji ?</strong></p><p></p><p>Before I add my two cents, an humble request:</p><p># Please use bold letters instead of capitals. In the internet world capitals stand for shouting voice.</p><p># Please do not use double !! or ?? </p><p></p><p>Now my two cents:</p><p>First off there is no mention of women in this shabad.</p><p>Secondly the main line of controversy is</p><p> "ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਫਿਰੈ"</p><p>Giani ji has interpreted this to mean that Bhagat ji turned away from dehra and walked away with realization that God is not in idols but everywhere.</p><p></p><p>I beg to differ. Grammatically speaking the word 'ਕਉ' is a postposition. The noun in plural "ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾਂ" is in Sampardaan Karak. Let me explain a bit here for those who are not in touch with grammer lessons read ages ago in high school.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sumpurdaan means to give, to donate. A noun or a pronoun is said to be in Sumpurdaan Kaaruk when the action of the sentence is done 'for' it or 'to' it. The postpositions used for this are:</p><p></p><p>ਨੂੰ - to </p><p></p><p>ਲਈ - for </p><p></p><p>ਵਾਸਤੇ - for </p><p></p><p>ਹਿੱਤ - for, towards this end</p><p>Lets see an example sentence.</p><p></p><p></p><p>ਪਿਤਾ ਨੇ ਪੁੱਤਰ ਨੂੰ ਪੰਜ ਰੁਪਏ ਦਿੱਤੇ</p><p>The noun ਪੁੱਤਰ is in Sampardaan karak because the action ਦੇਣਾ(ਦਿੱਤੇ) is being done <strong>for</strong> it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In our line "ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਫਿਰੈ" the noun ਭਗਤ ਜਨ (which is plural just to mention) is in Sampardaan kaarak and the postposition ਕਉ is being used to make the case. The word ਕਉ means <strong>for</strong>. The action/verb performed is ਫਿਰੈ. The ਦੇਹਰਾ noun is the one one which the action is performed and the action is done for the noun ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ. </p><p></p><p>Now we come to the next step. What is the meaning of the word ਫਿਰੈ? This word has been used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with 3 meaning.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>The first meaning is 'to roam around', 'to walk about'. </strong>In our everyday Punjabi we often used this meaning as well as the word, eg 'ਤੂੰ ਕਿਥੇ ਫਿਰਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈਂ?' Here are some Gurbani lines in which this sense has been conveyed:</p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'"><span style="font-size: 12px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'"><span style="font-size: 12px"></span>ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨੀ ਭਉਦਾ ਫਿਰੈ ਜਿਉ ਸੁੰਞੈਂ ਘਰਿ ਕਾਉ ॥ (</span>Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, page 30) <span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਉ ਖੰਡ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੀ ਫਿਰੈ ਚਿਰੁ ਜੀਵੈ ॥(</span>Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pg 265. Sukhmani Sahib)</p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲਿੰਉ ਲਿੰਉ ਕਰਤ ਫਿਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਲੋਗੁ ॥(</span>Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pg 342)</p><p> </p><p><strong>The second meaning is that of ' to turn Back', 'to not be effective or implemented'</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p>ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ <strong>ਫਿਰੈ</strong> ਨਾਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਇ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਸਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pg 923)</p><p>The order from dhur (court of Akal Purakh) cannot be turned back, it cannot be not implemented. Guru shall now go to Akal Purakh as per His order.</p><p></p><p>ਚੀਰੀ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਨਾ <strong>ਫਿਰੈ</strong> ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸੋ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pg 1239)</p><p></p><p>That Master is acceptable whose cheeri (Order) is never turned back or not implemented.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>The third meaning is that of 'to turn around in circle'.</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>ਰਥੁ <strong>ਫਿਰੈ</strong> ਛਾਇਆ ਧਨ ਤਾਕੈ ਟੀਡੁ ਲਵੈ ਮੰਝਿ ਬਾਰੇ ॥ (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pg 1108)</p><p>The rath of sun (which always goes in circles) moves in circle, the poor body takes shelter in shade, even the insect known as 'tidda' or 'beend' makes noises outside. Meaning whole nature is scorching under the hot sun.</p><p></p><p></p><p> ਜਉ ਗੁਰਦੇਉ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ <strong>ਫਿਰੈ</strong>(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pg 1166)</p><p>If Guru is there to protect and help you, even the dehra moves/turns around.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Lets also take a look at a line from Bhai Gurdas:</p><p></p><p></p><p>ਟੰਗੋ ਪਕੜ ਘਸੀਟਿਆ, <strong>ਫਿਰਿਆ </strong>ਮਕਾ ਕਲਾ ਦਿਖਾਰੀ (1-32-7)</p><p>Guru Nanak was dragged around by his feet. Mecca turned around in the same direction and thus Akal Purakh showed his Kalaa.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The myth about Mecca shifting its place is not only found in Sikh circles. Bhai Vir Singh has written that it has been said the Mecca shifted in other cases too eg in case of great lady sufi saint Rabia.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Therefore I believe that <strong>literal meaning </strong>of our controversial line "ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਫਿਰੈ" is that <strong>Dehra</strong> <strong>turned around</strong>. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Now further. </p><p></p><p>I do not believe that dehra actually physically turned around. When I was young I read Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa's biography. I also read 'Katha Amrit' or 'Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna' which is a compilation of diary records of Sri Mahedranath about his meetings with Sri Ramakrishna. I personally believe that Sri Mahendranath was one of those few bhaktas who attained a state of complete egolessness. I take his writing to be very authentic and reliable. In these writings it has been recorded that Sri Ramakrishna used to often go into meditative trance. His whole mind used to get filled with great love and fervour for God. He also used to see vision of Goddess Kali in these states.</p><p>Of course it goes without saying that Kali is not God himself. It is a representation. Even followers of Sri Ramakrishna accept this.</p><p> Sikh philosophy accepts that everything is Akal Purakh. All phenomenon and noumenon are Akal Purakh. Not simple created by Akal Purakh. They <strong>are</strong> Akal Purakh in the ultimate sense. </p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"></span></p><p>ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਫੇਨ ਬੁਦਬੁਦਾ ਜਲ ਤੇ ਭਿੰਨ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ </p><p></p><p>ਇਹੁ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਲੀਲਾ ਬਿਚਰਤ ਆਨ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥</p><p>Of course at the relative plane there are things which are good and bad and all the in-between. There are individual and separate phenomenon too at relative plane, that is commonsensical thing. Although Akal Purakh manifests in a lion too but I would not go and play with it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Based on this thought I believe that all authentic spiritual experiences - not the fraud ones or the ones which are result of mental delusions or borne out of blind superstitions- of the saints of all religions are spiritual manifestations of Akal Purakh. These manifestations occur under divine order and under divine scheme of things and are highly <strong>personal</strong> to the the person having these with respect to his conditioning, his culture, his religion, his path etc. In this sense they are <strong>relative</strong> in importance and interpretation. They cannot be taken to be absolute in nature.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I feel that dehra of bhagat ji actually turned, but it turned in his spiritual world, in his vision and his personal interactiion with Akal Purakh. God works in mysterious ways they say. And of course he would treat his bhagats in a special manner. <strong>I do not believe that dehra turned physically.</strong> It turned at the spiritual level. Akal Purakh gave a divine darshan to his bhagat and this is what he terms as dehra turning.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I believe this is the same thing in case of Mecca turning too. Mecca did turn but not physically. The people who were involved in the incident over there, namely a person named Jeevan who kicked Guru Nanak, saw a vision, a divine vision. Such a vision cannot be put in words. We can only point to it in a limited way. But this vision convinced Jeevan that Mecca is everywhere, Allah is all prevading. </p><p></p><p>This is my belief and understanding.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="passingby, post: 140708, member: 13860"] [b]Re: Did the Mandir ROTATE for Bhagat Namdev Ji ?[/b] Before I add my two cents, an humble request: # Please use bold letters instead of capitals. In the internet world capitals stand for shouting voice. # Please do not use double !! or ?? Now my two cents: First off there is no mention of women in this shabad. Secondly the main line of controversy is "ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਫਿਰੈ" Giani ji has interpreted this to mean that Bhagat ji turned away from dehra and walked away with realization that God is not in idols but everywhere. I beg to differ. Grammatically speaking the word 'ਕਉ' is a postposition. The noun in plural "ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾਂ" is in Sampardaan Karak. Let me explain a bit here for those who are not in touch with grammer lessons read ages ago in high school. Sumpurdaan means to give, to donate. A noun or a pronoun is said to be in Sumpurdaan Kaaruk when the action of the sentence is done 'for' it or 'to' it. The postpositions used for this are: ਨੂੰ - to ਲਈ - for ਵਾਸਤੇ - for ਹਿੱਤ - for, towards this end Lets see an example sentence. ਪਿਤਾ ਨੇ ਪੁੱਤਰ ਨੂੰ ਪੰਜ ਰੁਪਏ ਦਿੱਤੇ The noun ਪੁੱਤਰ is in Sampardaan karak because the action ਦੇਣਾ(ਦਿੱਤੇ) is being done [B]for[/B] it. In our line "ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਫਿਰੈ" the noun ਭਗਤ ਜਨ (which is plural just to mention) is in Sampardaan kaarak and the postposition ਕਉ is being used to make the case. The word ਕਉ means [B]for[/B]. The action/verb performed is ਫਿਰੈ. The ਦੇਹਰਾ noun is the one one which the action is performed and the action is done for the noun ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ. Now we come to the next step. What is the meaning of the word ਫਿਰੈ? This word has been used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with 3 meaning. [B]The first meaning is 'to roam around', 'to walk about'. [/B]In our everyday Punjabi we often used this meaning as well as the word, eg 'ਤੂੰ ਕਿਥੇ ਫਿਰਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈਂ?' Here are some Gurbani lines in which this sense has been conveyed: [FONT=Raavi][SIZE=3] [/SIZE]ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨੀ ਭਉਦਾ ਫਿਰੈ ਜਿਉ ਸੁੰਞੈਂ ਘਰਿ ਕਾਉ ॥ ([/FONT]Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, page 30) [FONT=Raavi]ਨਉ ਖੰਡ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੀ ਫਿਰੈ ਚਿਰੁ ਜੀਵੈ ॥([/FONT]Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pg 265. Sukhmani Sahib) [FONT=Raavi]ਲਿੰਉ ਲਿੰਉ ਕਰਤ ਫਿਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਲੋਗੁ ॥([/FONT]Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pg 342) [B]The second meaning is that of ' to turn Back', 'to not be effective or implemented' [/B] ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ [B]ਫਿਰੈ[/B] ਨਾਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਇ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਸਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pg 923) The order from dhur (court of Akal Purakh) cannot be turned back, it cannot be not implemented. Guru shall now go to Akal Purakh as per His order. ਚੀਰੀ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਨਾ [B]ਫਿਰੈ[/B] ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸੋ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pg 1239) That Master is acceptable whose cheeri (Order) is never turned back or not implemented. [B]The third meaning is that of 'to turn around in circle'.[/B] ਰਥੁ [B]ਫਿਰੈ[/B] ਛਾਇਆ ਧਨ ਤਾਕੈ ਟੀਡੁ ਲਵੈ ਮੰਝਿ ਬਾਰੇ ॥ (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pg 1108) The rath of sun (which always goes in circles) moves in circle, the poor body takes shelter in shade, even the insect known as 'tidda' or 'beend' makes noises outside. Meaning whole nature is scorching under the hot sun. ਜਉ ਗੁਰਦੇਉ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ [B]ਫਿਰੈ[/B](Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pg 1166) If Guru is there to protect and help you, even the dehra moves/turns around. Lets also take a look at a line from Bhai Gurdas: ਟੰਗੋ ਪਕੜ ਘਸੀਟਿਆ, [B]ਫਿਰਿਆ [/B]ਮਕਾ ਕਲਾ ਦਿਖਾਰੀ (1-32-7) Guru Nanak was dragged around by his feet. Mecca turned around in the same direction and thus Akal Purakh showed his Kalaa. The myth about Mecca shifting its place is not only found in Sikh circles. Bhai Vir Singh has written that it has been said the Mecca shifted in other cases too eg in case of great lady sufi saint Rabia. Therefore I believe that [B]literal meaning [/B]of our controversial line "ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਫਿਰੈ" is that [B]Dehra[/B] [B]turned around[/B]. Now further. I do not believe that dehra actually physically turned around. When I was young I read Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa's biography. I also read 'Katha Amrit' or 'Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna' which is a compilation of diary records of Sri Mahedranath about his meetings with Sri Ramakrishna. I personally believe that Sri Mahendranath was one of those few bhaktas who attained a state of complete egolessness. I take his writing to be very authentic and reliable. In these writings it has been recorded that Sri Ramakrishna used to often go into meditative trance. His whole mind used to get filled with great love and fervour for God. He also used to see vision of Goddess Kali in these states. Of course it goes without saying that Kali is not God himself. It is a representation. Even followers of Sri Ramakrishna accept this. Sikh philosophy accepts that everything is Akal Purakh. All phenomenon and noumenon are Akal Purakh. Not simple created by Akal Purakh. They [B]are[/B] Akal Purakh in the ultimate sense. [SIZE=1] [/SIZE] ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਫੇਨ ਬੁਦਬੁਦਾ ਜਲ ਤੇ ਭਿੰਨ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਲੀਲਾ ਬਿਚਰਤ ਆਨ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ Of course at the relative plane there are things which are good and bad and all the in-between. There are individual and separate phenomenon too at relative plane, that is commonsensical thing. Although Akal Purakh manifests in a lion too but I would not go and play with it. Based on this thought I believe that all authentic spiritual experiences - not the fraud ones or the ones which are result of mental delusions or borne out of blind superstitions- of the saints of all religions are spiritual manifestations of Akal Purakh. These manifestations occur under divine order and under divine scheme of things and are highly [B]personal[/B] to the the person having these with respect to his conditioning, his culture, his religion, his path etc. In this sense they are [B]relative[/B] in importance and interpretation. They cannot be taken to be absolute in nature. I feel that dehra of bhagat ji actually turned, but it turned in his spiritual world, in his vision and his personal interactiion with Akal Purakh. God works in mysterious ways they say. And of course he would treat his bhagats in a special manner. [B]I do not believe that dehra turned physically.[/B] It turned at the spiritual level. Akal Purakh gave a divine darshan to his bhagat and this is what he terms as dehra turning. I believe this is the same thing in case of Mecca turning too. Mecca did turn but not physically. The people who were involved in the incident over there, namely a person named Jeevan who kicked Guru Nanak, saw a vision, a divine vision. Such a vision cannot be put in words. We can only point to it in a limited way. But this vision convinced Jeevan that Mecca is everywhere, Allah is all prevading. This is my belief and understanding. [/QUOTE]
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Did The Mandir ROTATE For Bhagat Namdev Ji?
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