Atheism Did God create an imperfect world?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by jasbirkaleka, Mar 20, 2010.


  1. jasbirkaleka

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    The world is full of pain,misery and sickness.God,being omni-potent could easily have created a perfect world.
    Could someone enlighten me,without playing with words,so a lay-man like me can understand"God"s Great Game-plan".:confused:
     
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  2. spnadmin

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    jasbirkaleka ji

    Hope you don't think I am playing with words.

    I cannot explain God's Great Game-plan because I am not God. However, this is my imperfect understanding.

    Each of us as individuals will have perspectives and knowledge that is incomplete and imperfect. If the knowledge of every individual who lived, has lived, will live could be combined --- that would still only be the total of many incomplete and imperfect understandings.

    We understand the universe incompletely and imperfectly because we cannot take the perspective of Akaal who is timeless and is the Doer of Everything.
     
  3. Mai Harinder Kaur

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    The short answer is, "No." No one can enlighten you, only Akaal Purakh can do that. Understanding of such things is a direct experience and any attempt to explain can only be a pack of not-quite-truths. Even thinking about explaining is frustrating. :hopmad:

    The world is perfect, exactly as it is. What we see as pain, misery and sickness is a part of the plan that we, with our finite brains and tiny bit of understanding, cannot get our minds around. I myself have had my share of pain, misery and sickness, so I have some small idea what I'm talking about. It is all Hukam of Vaheguru and the sooner we all learn to accept that, the sooner we can all live in chardi kala. :happy:

    This is not cold. I have long been a social activist, working to help alleviate these hurtful things where they exist. That, too, is the Hukam of Vaheguru. Once that one little concept is assimilated as a working part of a person, life becomes simple and without worry. Not easy, simple. My experience is that that is the answer to everything. It's all attitude. Accept all as the Hukam of Vaheguru.:wah: (I'm no saint. I forget this from time to time and need reminding, too.)

    Sorry if this seems like word-play. Words are all I have. Watch this video a few times. It might help. Or it might not. In either case, it is time well spent.


    YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
    YouTube- Mool Mantar - Sikh Prayer
     
  4. Embers

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    Our minds are limited. We look to our minds for an answer. Often the answer isn't satisfactory. Often we ask others or turn to books or science to help satisfy the urge to explain.

    Our minds are limited in the same way that we can not see all points of view in every debate. Similarly we are limited physically, we don't have eyes in the back of our head* and we cannot see everything and explain everything that happens around us. We hear a scream and turn around to see a person on the floor, we can never explain exactly why. We are limited to our own perspective in time and space. The limitation is natural.

    We can grow frustrated and disillusioned with a world which we cannot fully explain.

    Our blessings begin the moment we become aware that we know we have this limitation. We can accept it as part of our being human. A part of the human condition. We know that we cannot understand everything and explain everything. We are only ever presented with a part of the whole story. At some point we have to shrug our shoulders and accept we don't know it all. This realisation has to lead to some acceptance of the situation, be it bad or good.

    If we are lucky then with acceptance comes a moment we look to God for exaplantion. The moment we turn our hearts and minds inwards to God the grace and blessings of Akal Purakh that Gurus so often remind us, opens to us. Akal Purakh is ever ready to help, knowing our condition as the creator knows his creation.


    ----------
    *Eyes in the back of the head. A side topic is Brahma, which we hear of in the SGGS. Brahma is depecited with four heads. Some say the four heads represent the ability to see everything at once: north, east, south and west. i.e. so Omnisicient, all knowing. As we don't have the blessing (or curse) of four heads we must come to accept ourselves and with it all that happens in Waheguru's universe.
     
  5. Astroboy

    Astroboy ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Quoted by Narayanjot Kaur

    None of us truly live in reality. We live in what we think is reality, but it’s
    actually just our own individual perception of what reality is.

    Quoted by Ambers
    Changing the world from the outside isn't going to change anything. It is like trying to remove the thorns from the garden. Rather we need to wear a strong pair of shoes to avoid being pricked by the thorns.

    We can't paint all the white roses red but we can wear red-tinted glasses to get the job. The change must come from our viewpoint and not the object. :stirpot:
     
  6. japjisahib04

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    Jasbirkaleka Ji,
    If everything is so smooth,then where is the fun, and who will work, who will give justice and then who will remember God.
     
  7. Taranjeet singh

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    First Part: Pain and Misery

    I am also a layman.

    That the world is full of Misery has been also observed by Guru Sahibs and the following line is also indicative of the same:
    1.Nanak Dukhia sab sansara


    Guru Sahibs have advised that one should make efforts to cross-over this Bhaojal:
    2. Sarnjaam Lag Bhaojal Taran ke


    How to do this is again summed up in a very popular Line:
    3. Naam Khumari Nanaka Chadi Rahe din Raat


    Second Part: Game Plan

    AS per Bani. This is His drama/play.He has created this.He has also created Maya and the three-Gunas. He has also ingrained 'ego' in every one. We are also His part but we do not realize this. So far as we are concerned we cannot fathom the Game plan of the Lord as He is incomprehensible and unfathomable. Guru Sahibs have stated clearly that even if one has seen/met/realized him , He cannot be described.Hence the purpose of His actions would also remain beyond human comprehension.This drama will end when He decides to wind up this show and all of this creation will get absorbed into the Creator.

    Hope it clarifies this.

    Coming Back to pain and Misery I am reminded of a dialogue that took place between Brahma and Lord Shiva. Brahma was asked by Shiva to clarify as to what kind of miserable world has he created. To this Brahma replied that He has made this world for every one to enjoy and for this purpose he has given every body a beautiful thing and that is 'mind'. It is for the people to use this correctly.

    Shiva thought over this , smiled and went to Trance after pondering for one or two minutes. After this he never asked anything from Brahma.
     
  8. jasbirkaleka

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    Japjisahib04 ji Sat Sri Akal.
    Where is the fun when millions die in earth-quacks or epidemics?
    When an infant, who is not even aware of the world around him, dies of cancer or some other disease, where is the justice?
    Do we ever torment or torture our children just to make them remember that we are their parents?
    Sorry,I fail to find any logic in your answer.:(
     
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  9. Tejwant Singh

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    Jasbir ji,


    Guru Fateh.

    I am actually confused by your question, so I seek your help. I have no idea what thought process you had to go through to post this question.

    Pardon my bluntness, but the question sounds quite myopic especially from a person like you whose posts I enjoy a lot because they are almost always thought provoking which nudge us to the deeper level of our thought process.

    What is imperfect about the Sun? If there were not this planet called The Sun, then we would not be here.

    Or are we still mourning about the extinction of many species like Dinosaurs when a big asteroid hit this speck of sand called the Earth?


    Mystery solved! Giant asteroid killed the dinosaurs, say scientists

    Mystery solved! Giant asteroid killed the dinosaurs, say scientists

    Or are we talking about the destruction created by the ice age?

    But we discovered something interesting on the other day. Here it is:
    NASA Finds Shrimp-Like Creature, Jellyfish Beneath Antarctic Ice Sheet: 'We Were Just Gaga Over It'

    NASA Finds Shrimp-Like Creature, Jellyfish Beneath Antarctic Ice Sheet: 'We Were Just Gaga Over It'

    Or are we talking about this omnipotent God creating flood (Genesis6-9), hence killing millions because he claimed that men had become wicked. One wonders why He did not use His omnipotence to instill goodness in them so they could be steered away from wickedness!

    Or are you just concerned about this tiny little speck called the Earth and have concluded Ik Ong Kaar's blue print for all the WOW! and the AWE! factors that surround us?

    So, Jasbir ji, please help me understand your question so I can learn from it.

    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  10. jasbirkaleka

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    Tejwant Singh ji,Sat Sri Akal,
    I am not trying to dig into deeper level of our thought process.
    This thought just pops-up whenever I see poverty,sickness and misery around me.I believe you too must have thought about it at one-time or the other.:confused:
     
  11. Tejwant Singh

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    Jasbir ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Thanks for the response.

    Now, I understand your question which is only to do with this speck called the Earth. No, I do not blame God for this as you have mentioned above and nor do I think God has anything to do with these aspects.

    Let me ask you another question.

    Did Guru Arjan or Guru Teg Bahadur ji ask the same questions about god when they sacrificed their lives?

    If they did not, should they have?

    Why should the blame lie on whichever god you have in mind about- your words,"I see poverty,sickness and misery around me"?

    Why can't we as humans take this as our challenge, our responsibility to eradicate all the above?

    Let's take these three things one by one.

    1. Poverty- US which is not a very old country is the richest in the world today. The survey says that the Sikhs living here have the highest per capita income and they are second in the UK.

    Which God do you think is helping the US and not the other countries or is it the man who is at fault?

    You are a farmer. I am sure you must have found ways to increase the yield of your crops per acre than it was a few years ago.

    Punjab was instrumental in creating the Green Revolution in India and became its bread basket. Now, things are not that green for many. Highest per capita consumption of alcohol and drugs are in Punjab now.

    Who shall we blame for this one?

    2. Sickness: Science has found many cures for the diseases that are there and daily new ways are being found to combat the diseases.

    I am the living proof of the cure with my pace maker.

    When we can find solutions then the problems are not curses by some deity God but challenges for us humans so we can become better as people.

    Last one - Misery: Well, we are still learning how to deal with our mothers in law to find its cure.


    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  12. Mai Harinder Kaur

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    A one-liner: If life were easy, what would be the point?

    :happykudi:
     
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  13. Sinister

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    For an empiricist the good is relative to evil, the feeling of justice is relative to the feeling of injustice. Thus, linguistically, the expressions of these emotions are all co-dependant for their existence.

    Other than the honest expression of personal emotion, there exists nothing more than a play of words in a medium of communication like an online forum.

    A play of words is nothing more than the expression of a persons understanding, but if you still feel uncomfortable, then alternative levels of expression I believe exist:

    Caspar David:

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Astroboy

    Astroboy ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    I guess we owe it to ourselves to see our real selves beyond the veils of illusion.
    Page 138, Line 18
    ਸਹਸਾ ਇਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਆਇਆ ਜਾਇਆ ॥
    सहसा इहु संसारु है मरि जमै आइआ जाइआ ॥
    Sahsā ih sansār hai mar jammai ā▫i▫ā jā▫i▫ā.
    This world is an illusion; it dies and it is re-born-it comes and it goes in reincarnation.
    Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
     
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  15. Astroboy

    Astroboy ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Quoted by Taranjeet Singh
    Taranjeet Singh Ji,
    This famous saying appears in Suraj Prakash by Kavi Santokh Singh. It is not Gurbani.
    You may already have known this fact.
     
  16. jasbirkaleka

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    Tejwant Singh ji,
    Guru Fateh,
    I absolutely agree with you that it in man"s own hands to improve his lot and humans have being striving to do this since the beginning of civilization. Undoubtedly the world is a much better place to live in today than the earliest homo-sapiens found themselves to be in.
    Yes,Guru Arjan Dev ji and Guru Teg Bahadur Singh made the supreme sacrifice to lessen the sufferings of man-kind.
    But the question still remains-Why create such a world?:confused:
     
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  17. Mai Harinder Kaur

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    Jasbir ji, this was addressed to Tejwant ji, but I find myself with the need to answer.

    When Akaal Purakh explains its motivations to me, I'll let you know.
     
  18. Tejwant Singh

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    Jasbir ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I am sorry to say that I have no ability to play Ik Ong Kaar, hence I am unable to answer your question.

    My only duty is to accept the Hukum and do the best to pitch in to make this world a bit better.


    Tejwant Singh
     
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  19. jasbirkaleka

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    Tejwant ji,
    Guru Fateh,
    Thanks for sparing some moments from your precious time to communicate with me, in-spite of a somewhat provocative post.And,like a true Sikh of the Gurus, I truly appreciate your full faith in Wahe-Guru and His Hukum.:happysingh:
     
  20. Taranjeet singh

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    Dear Jasbir ji,

    I know that the answer may not satisfy you. But this world has been created and He plays in many ways. He is the ravisher Himself.[bani]
    It is a play game of the Lord of which we are also the part. Since it is His game He has to see what is best for the game. we cannot, therefore, reason it out.

    Now there are two options with us.

    a].Accept this and be contended. as nothing is in our hands.

    Or

    Do not accept this and be unsatisfied , miserable or consider that everything is bad which may not be so for some of others.

    If one exercises the option [a] one would be following His Hukum. As per Bani ' pain and pleasures are to be treated as His Gifts.


    If one exercises option one would be not going as per Hukum and should be ,generally speaking, miserable like most of us.

    As a concluding remark human intervention in the Divine Order is not accepted in Sikh philosophy or for that matter in any philosophy. One has to fight one's battle oneself. God is there to help every one including those who are in misery. May be in their misery lies their good. Who Knows.?

    Regards.
    Taranjeet
     
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