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Gurus Did Anyone Get To God Before Guru Nanak?, Responding to Challenges to Sikhi

Discussion in 'History of Sikhism' started by kaur-1, Jan 13, 2007.

  1. kaur-1

    kaur-1
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    Q: Sikhs believe the religion of ‘Gurmat and Naam’ preached by Guru Nanak is Supreme. But what was before Guru Nanak? Did anyone get to God or Sachkhand before Guru Nanak?

    A:
    Sikhs believe that the Almighty Himself sent his Guru form, the True Guru, Guru Nanak Sahib jee to save the world. As mentioned early, in essence Guru Nanak Sahib jee was no human, but the Divine Infinite Wisdom, and therefore existed throughout time to save the Seeker of Truth from spiritual darkness of ignorance:

    ਤੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੇ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ॥
    ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਸਿਖ ਸੇਵੰਤ ਧੁਰਹ ਧੁਰੁ ॥
    ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਲੋਅਹ ॥
    ਅਗਮ ਨਿਗਮ ਉਧਰਣ ਜਰਾ ਜੰਮਿਹਿ ਆਰੋਅਹ ॥
    ਗੁਰ ਅਮਰਦਾਸਿ ਥਿਰੁ ਥਪਿਅਉ ਪਰਗਾਮੀ ਤਾਰਣ ਤਰਣ ॥
    ਅਘ ਅੰਤਕ ਬਦੈ ਨ ਸਲ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਕਵਿ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਰਣ ॥੨॥੬੦॥
    You are the True Guru, throughout the four ages; You Yourself are the Transcendent Lord. The angelic beings, seekers, Sidhs and Sikhs have served You, since the very beginning of time. You are primal, from the very beginning, and throughout the ages; Your Power supports the three worlds.”
    (Ang 1406)


    [​IMG]
    True Guru, the Infinite Divine Wisdom, is one with God and there remains no difference between the two. It is like a drop of water in the ocean. There is only ‘One God’, and True Guru remains immersed in Him and shows the path to the seeker of Truth and helps on the spiritual journey.

    The difference was that Gurmat Naam was only available to select Bhagats in the past, but now in Kaljug (present era of time) Guru Nanak Sahib jee came and offered Naam openly to humanity and that’s why Kaljug is in fact the best of the Jugs (eras of time):

    ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
    ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਦਰਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਾਏ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗੁ ॥
    ਆਪਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਧਾਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਬਖਸਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੧॥
    ਕਲਿਜੁਗੁ ਉਧਾਰਿਆ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ॥
    ਮਲ ਮੂਤ ਮੂੜ ਜਿ ਮੁਘਦ ਹੋਤੇ ਸਭਿ ਲਗੇ ਤੇਰੀ ਸੇਵ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    ਤੂ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਧਰਤਾ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
    ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜਾ ਬਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਹੋਆ ਸਭ ਪਈ ਪੈਰੀ ਆਇ ॥੨॥
    ਸਤਜੁਗੁ ਤ੍ਰੇਤਾ ਦੁਆਪਰੁ ਭਣੀਐ ਕਲਿਜੁਗੁ ਊਤਮੋ ਜੁਗਾ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
    ਅਹਿ ਕਰੁ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਅਹਿ ਕਰੁ ਪਾਏ ਕੋਈ ਨ ਪਕੜੀਐ ਕਿਸੈ ਥਾਇ ॥੩॥
    ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸੋਈ ਕਰਹਿ ਜਿ ਭਗਤ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਾਚਹਿ ਏਹੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਬਿਰਦੁ ॥
    ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਨੁ ਮਾਗੈ ਅਪਣਿਆ ਸੰਤਾ ਦੇਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸੁ ॥੪॥੫॥੧੪੦॥
    "Aasaa, Fifth Mehl: The Blessed Vision of Your Darshan is unapproachable and incomprehensible; he alone obtains it, who has such good destiny recorded upon his forehead. The Merciful Lord Vaheguru has bestowed His Mercy, and the True Guru has granted the Lord's Name. ||1|| The Divine Guru is the Saving Grace in this Dark Age of Kaljug. Even those fools and idiots, stained with feces and urine, have all taken to Your service. ||1||Pause|| You Yourself are the Creator, who established the entire world. You are contained in all. The Righteous Judge of Dharma is wonder-struck, at the sight of everyone falling at Vaheguru's Feet. ||2|| The Golden Age of Sat Yuga, the Silver Age of Trayta Yuga, and the Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga are good; but the best is the Dark Age, the Iron Age, of Kaljug. As we act, so are the rewards we receive; no one can take the place of another. ||3|| O Dear Vaheguru, whatever Your devotees ask for, You do. This is Your Way, Your very nature. With my palms pressed together, O Nanak, I beg for this gift; Vaheguru, please bless Your Saints with Your Vision. ||4||5||140||"
    (Ang 406)


    Furthermore. Gurbani says:

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਮਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥
    ਇਹ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋ ਜੀਅਹੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਹੁਣਿ ਨਿਬੇੜਾ ਨਰ ਮਨੁਖਾ ਨੋ ਏਕੁ ਨਿਧਾਨਾ ॥
    ਜਤੁ ਸੰਜਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਓਨਾ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੨॥
    "One who accepts the wisdom of the True Guru's Teachings, is absorbed into the True Guru. The Lord's Name abides deep within the nucleus of one who realizes the Baani of the Guru's Word within their soul. ||1||Pause|| In the sanctuary of the Guru one understands that the essence of the teachings of the four ages: for the human race, the Name of the One Lord is the greatest treasure. (The Vedas and the other Hindu Scriptures etc have been saying that) celibacy, self-discipline and pilgrimages were the essence of Dharma in those past ages; but in this Dark Age of Kaljug, (Guru Nanak has come and said that) the Praise of the Lord's Name is the essence of Dharma. ||2||"
    (Ang 797)



    No one is condemned to Hell simply for having incorrect belief. It is our actions, which are judged. A Sikh, who has meditated on Naam and lived the Path of Gurmat will break through this prison of action/reaction or Karma and enter Sachkhand. Not everyone is fortunate and has the good karma of meeting Satguru. However, through good Karma they have the opportunity of living Gurmat in a future life.

    Other religions like Islam, Christianity and Judaism, cannot explain what happened to those countless Inuit and Natives and Aborigines and African Tribalists who did not have a concept of a single God as in the Abrahamic religions? Sadly, Islam and Semitic religions would condemn these people to Hell for worshipping many gods. Was it their fault that they had not heard of Islam, Christianity or heard of the God of Abraham that they should be eternally cast to Hell? This is pure injustice and blind discrimination. This is not reflective of an All-Loving and Just God, who has implemented Just and Fair Laws in the Universe.

    Sikhism answers that it was not in their karma to know of God and depending on their actions they may be rewarded with human life again and the opportunity to know God. They are by no means condemned for having wrong belief. Condemnation is for those who commit wrong action. Those who meet the True Guru, embrace the True Guru and live the Path of Gurmat Naam are truly blessed and are fortunate.

    --------------------
    Manvir Singh Khalsa

    Source: Q & A: Did Anyone Get To God Before Guru Nanak? - DiscoverSikhi.Com



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  3. singhnjit

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    The reply is most appropriate
     
  4. Sikh Namdhari

    Sikh Namdhari
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    ਤੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੇ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ॥
    ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਸਿਖ ਸੇਵੰਤ ਧੁਰਹ ਧੁਰੁ ॥
    ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਲੋਅਹ
    ਅਗਮ ਨਿਗਮ ਉਧਰਣ ਜਰਾ ਜੰਮਿਹਿ ਆਰੋਅਹ ॥
    ਗੁਰ ਅਮਰਦਾਸਿ ਥਿਰੁ ਥਪਿਅਉ ਪਰਗਾਮੀ ਤਾਰਣ ਤਰਣ ॥
    ਅਘ ਅੰਤਕ ਬਦੈ ਨ ਸਲ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਕਵਿ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਰਣ ॥੨॥੬੦॥


    Highlighted in RED the lines that praise the Dehdhari Satguru; in this instance:
    Dhan, Dhan Sri Satguru Amardass Ji and Satguru Ramdass Ji.
    So where does your arguement, that only the Shabad is and always has been Guru; that the Guru is NOT the Human Form, stand now, Bhenji?

    This Kaladhari Satguru came to this Earth in all the previous Yugs as well. As He will continue to come now and in the future too:

    Satyug thei Maanio, Bal Bavan Bhaio,
    Thraethei thei manio, Ram Raghuvans kahaio,
    Duapari Krisan Muraari, Kansu kirtharathu keeo,
    Ugarseinn ko Raj, abhei Bhagathah Jan dheeo,
    Kaliyug parmaan, Nanak Gur, Angad, Amar kahaio,
    Sri Guru Raj, abichal atal,
    Aadh Purakh pheramio. 7. Svayae Mahalae Pehilae ke. Pages 1389-90 Aadh Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

    I would be very interested to see how you distort these lines of Gurbani.
     
  5. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected Veer Sikh Naamdhari Ji,

    who says you cannot have a dehdhari Guru.

    yes- NOBODY CAN LIMIT SATGURU TO ONLY A HUMAN BODY.

    BANI GURU GURU HAI BANI
    VICH BANI AMRIT SAAREY
    GURBANI KAHEY SEVAK JAN MAANEY
    PARTAKH GURU MISTAAREY

    All the ten Guru Sahibaan are here today, now- aatma never dies-does it.
    AMRIT NEVER GETS STALE
    Be it coming from the mouth of a physical body made of flesh
    be it coming through any other source

    AMRIT PRABH KA NAAM HAI, BANI HAI, NIRANKAAR HAI. dear veer, its value cannot be distorted by cheap arguments.

    forgive me please
     
  6. Sikh Namdhari

    Sikh Namdhari
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    Then Bhenji, let us refrain from engaging in cheap arguements, and try to reach the truth. There is ONLY ONE TRUTH:
    The Satguru has always been the KALAADHARI FORM of Parmesar (Aatma only incarnates on Earth in living tissue), in which form He Speaks Bani which we then call Gurbani, That Bani is the Guru of all Banis because it is spoken by the Satguru and is therefore Amrit. The Guru speaks it, the Sevak Jan obey as He, the Partakh Guru explains clearly.
    Explaining is a proactive action. It requires a Kalaadhari to explain the spoken or written Word. If we try to understand it ourselves we run the risk of converting Gurmath into Manmath, something that is happening here at an unprecedented level.
     
  7. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected Veer Ji,

    this is your manmat that is keeping Guru limited to a mouth made of flesh.

    Bani is in not limited neither is the source it is coming from.

    Bani Nirankaar hai

    Cheap Arguments are coming from your side, Who is trying to convince others to think like you even after knowing-There is a Religion called SIKH DHARAM- WHERE THE BELIEFE is eternal.

    your thoughts are good for you and That religion's thoughts are good for them.

    forgive me please
     
  8. Sikh Namdhari

    Sikh Namdhari
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    Bhenji

    Who am I to make you think like me? All I am trying to do is make you think like the Authors of Sarab Sanji Gurbani thought.
     
  9. sachchasoda

    sachchasoda
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    Respected bro (Cant call you Sikh Naamdhari, as this will bring disrespect to both-Sikhs aswellas Naamdharies)

    i suggest you should stop placing kalank on Naamdhari Community and their Guru. (because only a maha moorakh Manmukh can give such a statement that you have given in your post)
    Naamdharies respect bani they dont invite others -COME AND DISRESPECT BANI -Or are they starting to do it now, if they are then their Guru is wasting his valuable time making Sanjhs with every religious leader and political leaders belonging to other religions out there. Instead he should invite all of them to disrespect Bani. So that he can teach his lessons to others as you are dong here.

    i am afraid he may have to sign in himself to say something in his safaai (after seeing his chelaas giving an open invitation to others to DISTORT GURBANI)

    bhul chuk maaf- i have no intentions to disrespect Naamdhari Guru or their religion, all i did is: answered our bro(who is faking to be a Naamdhari)
     
  10. sachchasoda

    sachchasoda
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    bro, DID THE AUTHERS OF SARABH SANJHI GURBANI INVITED OTHERS TO DISRESPECT IT so that they can teach them the right way to understand it.
     
  11. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected Veer,

    so you are suggesting that you know exactly how the authors of Sarab Sanjhi Gurbani- 'Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan and other Bhagats' thought. how come your thinking as well as your actions are totally opposite to all of them as well as it is opposite to Naamdharies, it is opposite to any Saints and others Spiritualy advanced people....



    First Issue-
    you had been announcing it over and over again that only a Guru' mouth(in a human body) has the eligibility to preach Gurbani. you had been announcing it time and again- otherwise it adds manmukhta of the person who is preaching it.
    SO MERE PYAAREY VEER, WHAT IS MAKING YOU ELIGIBLE TO USE GURBANI.-are you what's his name- Respected Jagjit Singh Ji, are you????

    oh no; you cannot be him as he cannot make such an announcement as you made:
    such a statement is totally opposite to Sainthood.
    Saadh Sangat Ji please correct me if i am wrong.

    SO WHAT IS MAKING YOU ELIGIBLE TO USE GURBANI TO PROVE YOUR THOUGHT?????

    and you also said previously:

    AND WHAT IS INFLUENCING YOUR THOUGHT- as certainly it is not Sikhi, it cannot be Naamdahri??????


    Second Issue-
    Are NaamDharies giving open Invitations to others to distort Gurbani, is this something new?????
    it wasn't their practice for last 40 years(never seen/nor heard during my lifetime), never read this in their History, May be they are going to write new history NOW!!!!!

    None of their websites are doing this, or am i missing it veeray.
    SO WHAT IS MAKING YOU START SUCH PRACTICE?????


    Third Issue-
    you are using both titles in your id-SIKH as well as NAAMDHARI, and you say you are not belonging to Sikh Dharam
    your statements don't match Naamdhari thoughts
    WHO ARE YOU
    IS THIS SOME NEW RELIGION EVOLVING AT PRESENT??????


    Forth Issue-
    You have given an open invitation to distort Gurbani.
    you twist gurbani interpretations to prove your point all the time
    so all in all you DISRESPECT GURBANI all the time, wherease so many True Saints today are using Gurbani to support their 'WORD' (that makes it crystal clear Sarab Sanjhi Gurbani is over and above the words of those Saints)
    Even your own statements show that Naamdhari Guru preaches Gurbani, so he is using Gurbani to support his word.

    A saints word should be enough in itself, but they are still using Gurbani- shows that Gurbani is over and above them and their word. Saadh Sangat Ji please correct me if my statement is wrong.
    WHY IN YOUR OPINION -SIKHS CANNOT BELIEVE IN THIS TRUTH?????
    (as you had been questing this from your day one) WHERE GURBANI IS THEIR LIVING GURU.



    Fifth Issue-

    Your statement shows clearly that you don’t have a slightest of idea what Atma is, especially a Saints Atma.
    You have no clue what a GURU is, you have no clue what Gurbani is, you have no clue what ‘Partakh Guru’ signifies.
    You have no clue what Amrit is, and what is its significance.
    Word of Guru doesn’t have any signifance for you-
    Your prier statement-
    shows that Naamdharies don’t belive in conversions, but all you doing since your day one here on this forum-Missionary work.
    So it makes it clear you have no clue what missionary work is..
    you don't know what is -respect of Guru's word, as you yourself after announcing your guru's word, disobeying the same.
    your own words-
    what you are doing, exactly what you assume others do- choron ko sabhi nazar aatey hai chor, isn't it... so what your knowledge is all about.
    WHAT DO YOU KNOW????? I guess nothing….


    Sixth Issue-
    so what is bringing you back among the fools again and again. YOUR SATWAYN ASMAAN TE BETHI EGO, isn’t it…… and you repeatedly claim to be a NAAM DHARI- naam te haumai cannot live together-can they. Saadh Sangat Ji please correct me if i am wrong.
    you are never true to your word, you have said this several times before- ‘I am not coming back here again, ever’. And then we find you spitting on us fools everywhere on the forum.
    MY VEERAY, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM;YOU CANNOT STICK TO YOUR OWN WORD EVER AND YOU ARE CONVINCING US TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU SAY????? IS IT POSSIBLE????

    forgive me please
     
  12. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    You're not even coming to participate in a discussion, you just start preaching fanatically how wrong all mainstream Sikhs are for not being convinced of your dedhari guru. You just attack, and then get knocked out by Mike Tyson. Give it up man. It's pitiful. What in the world are you trying to prove? Just chill, sit back, and have a normal discussion being respectful of the majority view. I'm sure you have some interesting opinions about other topics without always trying to convert Sikhs.

    HIGHLIGHT FROM THE ENTERTAINMENT: Kalunk, rofl.

    You over-estimate your abilities. This is completely delusional thinking.
     
  13. braveheart

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    The God has always taken care of the direction of the souls of universe from the very begining.
    Guru Gobind Singh ji (the tenth Guru Nanak) was in perfect communication with the almighty God and he knew that no human body in coming time will be so truthful to carry the light of truth and therefore the knowledge and power recieved from the God was stored in the Guru Granth Sahib.
    The Guru ended all conflicts which can arise from following a false guide which will be available in abundance in coming time.
    We can see the fact in the deeds of Namdhari section who follow human Guru . Their Guru neither has any spiritual knowldege nor he is able to fight the mighty "kaal". Namdharis has travelled too far from the original truth and are following towards black hole to waste the precious human life .
    Thanks .
    "waheguru ji ka khalsa . waheguru ji ki fateh "
     
  14. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Everyone born/died/lived before Guru Nanak got to God.
     
  15. Archived_Member4

    Archived_Member4
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    No one gets to God. God reaches out to the blessed one's and grants them with his presence.
     

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